Guilty

[GoldenR]

Why couples counseling?   If you're not going to be honest there it's a waste of time and money. 

And avoid the Perel books.  She's worse than Kirschenbaum. 

[heartwhole2]

When my husband was having an affair, he rewrote our marriage and decided that he was only having an affair because he was such a poor martyr in an unhappy situation (though on DDay all he could come up with as complaints were that I didn't ask about his day enough and I didn't walk around town with him like I used to, when I had literally developed a chronic condition that makes me dizzy and fatigued upon standing . . . if these are faults worthy of divorce, would any marriage survive?). He confided in one friend about the affair, who told him to go to counseling, so he did. He thought the counselor would help him decide between the OW and the marriage. He was disappointed and perturbed when the counselor was immediately dismissive of the affair. So then he thought that maybe we should go to couple's counseling, but he realized what great hypocrisy that would be while he was having an affair. He had a fraction of the sense he should have, but at least he spared me that. I would not recommend marital counseling if you are going to continue curating his reality.

Another route by which your husband may be informed is if the OM's wife finds out. She may be an intuitive person who realizes something is off. My husband did not hide things really well; all it took was me charging up his retired phone. The standard advice is that your spouse should tell the AP's spouse to demonstrate that they are committed to transparency and moving forward. So if OM's wife reads this advice, she will likely insist on your husband being informed. The point is . . . you cannot control whether he finds out. And the more you attempt to control it, the more conniving you must become. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but telling is also a way to mitigate the risk that he will find out on his own and the fallout from that will almost certainly be worse than his finding out from you. Sure, in a perfect world your husband would never know the sting of betrayal, but you already allowed the stinger to pierce him. You're just hoping it heals before he realizes it.

Any BS can tell you that little things, like telling multiple family members and strangers on the Internet, can make things seem so much worse. It sounds funny because what could be worse than an affair, right? But it is such a blow to your sense of reality that to add the indignity of other people knowing (you will feel that they thought you were a fool even if they didn't) or your spouse suggesting marriage counseling as though the thing to fix was the marriage and not the cheater . . . if and when he finds out, these things may add insult to injury that determines whether he is willing to try to reconcile. Another element with a similar effect is "trickle truth" . . . when the cheating spouse only admits what can be proved and forces the betrayed spouse to keep digging and accusing. It feels like, you already had an affair, and now you can't do me the courtesy of giving me the truth that I deserve?

I can sort of understand why someone in an affair would treat their spouse this way. After all, they're a hot commodity. Somebody else wants to be with them! The betrayed spouse is just lucky that they're sticking around, right? But this is just bad logic compounded. But the thing is . . . you already committed to your husband and your husband only when you married him. You're not doing him a favor by being pretty sure you want to pick him after you tried someone else on for size in secret. Furthermore, you're a lot further from being the kind of partner he deserves now. He married a faithful wife, not a cheating one. You're not doing him any favors by lying to him about who you are. 

[usa1ah]

On 4/4/2020 at 5:44 AM, Febbow said:

GoldenR that's your opinion with your understanding of the snapshot of the situation I have communicated. What should I do for him if I 100% love him? First and foremost never repeat. Never. Stop all contact with OM. Make things better. Seek outside help. And maybe you're right.. be fully transparent. I'm thinking. I'm soul searching. I will continue to. The bits before.. I'm doing now and will forever more. That last part.. now in lockdown covid time with kids.. not the time to act. When we have the support of family and friends again and space..maybe. 

Can you love someone and royally mess up, at the same time while guaranting you've learned and transformed? I think so. Do some people repeat despite best intentions? Sure. Will I? No. I will have the respect to shut down the marriage with respect and honesty and control myself.  Do you have to confess all despite the consequences (to him more than me).. not sure. Damage limitation or deluded? I need to tease that out. I need time .  But you know I'm thinking deeply. And I appreciate your comments in challenging that. 

You would have never cheated if you loved your husband 100%. 
 

You just don’t, you love being married and the life he is providing for you. 

[usa1ah]

11 hours ago, Febbow said:

Hi all,

Thank you for your continued thought provoking comments and for sharing your views. 

I'm totally out of the affair. Been incredibly emotionally draining and sad but clear. 

I am now fully invested in making the marriage work. I know there is a danger I will relapse. I won't though. I wouldn't do that to my husband or to the OM. I understand the hurt and pain I've caused. I have so much self hate at the moment. Some of the harshest replies have felt good to read. Like a very welcome emotional slap/punch into reality. I have been pathetic and disrespectful. The level of anxiety I feel is incredible. I am responsible for poisoning the people involved by my cowardly and awful behaviour and choices.

I really did not have sex to answer. I wouldn't have done that. It doesn't matter though really does it? Kissing/holding hands/countless hours spent being emotionally intimate...almost worse! That's why I fear telling my husband. It's such an insult and it's really damaging to hear the details of that .  At the same time, I'm going to let that sit and really dig deep to work out whether I'm being selfish and cowardly yet again! Ultimately only I can make that decision. I will endeavour to do after some very deep soul searching. 

What caused the affair? I didn't mean it to happen (age old excuse). We had an attraction. Spent time in group settings talking. Started talking about inappropriately emotionally dense subjects .  Then crossed the line by meeting alone as 'friends'. (Idiotic). 

How will I avoid it happening again? No contact with OM. A memory of how horrendous this has been. Proper boundaries. Bullet proofing my marriage. Awakening to how damaging this type of behaviour is.

How do I fix my marriage? Independent counselling (booked); couple counselling after covid ; possibly a confession (after covid) and with correct support (undecided- sorry to those this disgusts); communication; prioritising couple time; changing my mindset to see all the many positives and appreciate them! ; Rewriting my narrative to focus on the good; learning about mature love and the stages it goes through ; learning about marriage and how to nurture it (John gottman , Esther Perel, Alain De Barton, etc.) ; Sleeping in the same bedroom again! Working to understand my negative mindset and attachment issues. Working to resolve my fear of abandonment . Allowing myself to be truly vulnerable and open with my husband instead of expecting him to mind read (and then be resentful!/shut down)! 

I have high hopes. I may go quiet around here because I need to harness my energy and pain to spur me into putting the effort into counselling and into making things right. It's been a tough week/year. Starting afresh now . The power of now!

By correct support do you mean someone that will support you not telling your husband? Then the two of you can blame him in couple’s therapy for the s***ty marriage. Because it wasn’t because you were having sex with the OM. Because that never happened according to you and the therapist. 

[Buffer]

 Hi Febbow, 

Kissing, holding hand and hours of being emotionally intimate, that is physical, hence you were in a PA not a EA. NC with AP!
You still can get a STI through transference of saliva. You didn’t practice safe kissing. 
That is why lots of people have said to tell BS so he can see how sh**ty his relationship was.  He may have picked up something. Regardless of what you feel, he may have something that needs to be treated.
Great that you have re committed to your marriage, but you still crossed the boundaries.

You are doing well in the commitment of the marriage, will you try to get back into the marital bedroom, not for the duty sex; but to be in the family committed.

Buffer

Quote

I really did not have sex to answer. I wouldn't have done that. It doesn't matter though really does it? Kissing/holding hands/countless hours spent being emotionally intimate...almost worse! That's why I fear telling my husband

Edited April 14, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fixed quote

[Febbow]

Ok. Thanks. 

Totally agree no couples counselling unless I tell the truth. Right now I'd predict that I will. But at the right time and with the right support for my husband. Not during this current lock down with no escape or child support.  Would want the kids safe and looked after for the weekend while we talk . It will kill but I think a lot of you are correct that I at least owe him that. I will use the run up to this to have IC and to work hard on making our life/relationship better. I find it quite damaging to read some of the very negative/not so constructive comments here. Feeling quite fragile. So forgive me if I disappear for a week or two to put my efforts and energy into putting things right. 

Thank you to so many of you. There are some that have really helped . Harsh but true and hugely constructive. I appreciate you. 

[GoldenR]

I hope he gives you a chance to prove yourself. 

[heartwhole2]

5 hours ago, Febbow said:

Ok. Thanks. 

Totally agree no couples counselling unless I tell the truth. Right now I'd predict that I will. But at the right time and with the right support for my husband. Not during this current lock down with no escape or child support.  Would want the kids safe and looked after for the weekend while we talk . It will kill but I think a lot of you are correct that I at least owe him that. I will use the run up to this to have IC and to work hard on making our life/relationship better. I find it quite damaging to read some of the very negative/not so constructive comments here. Feeling quite fragile. So forgive me if I disappear for a week or two to put my efforts and energy into putting things right. 

Thank you to so many of you. There are some that have really helped . Harsh but true and hugely constructive. I appreciate you. 

Febbow, there were promising signs in your very first post that you were on the road to self awareness and improvement. Which IMO is what life is all about, cheating or not. 

I also see your point about not telling your husband while he has no option to leave the house, see friends, etc. These are unusual times indeed. 

[mark clemson]

Telling may be wise in your case as, not only does it appear to fit your personal ethics but also because you may be at high risk of a Dday with a few too many people in your circle knowing about the affair.

From everything I've read around here, be aware that while you will have had months to process all this, to him it will be new and a major shock. Hopefully he is not one of the "zero tolerance" types that some men are, and the fact that the PA part was minimal AND that you are telling yourself will be in your favor. That "weekend" will almost certainly be the very start of a long process of change in your marriage. You should be as prepared as possible for literally anything.

I always suggest that people who plan to tell strongly consider talking to a lawyer in advance. Divorce may, or may not, become inevitable from the moment you tell. In addition, he may decide to tell the OM's wife, and in a few states if there is a divorce APs (that would be you) can be sued for alienation of affection. That's not particularly likely to happen, IMO, but IF it could that's one more factor to be aware of.

Beware of folks who may try to tell your husband that there's no way it was only kissing and that you are trickle-truthing. Trickle-truthing often makes things much worse for a WS. Often they would be right, but they don't know your specific story.

[pepperbird]

op,

a tool that can be very useful to you is a personal journal, one that;s not electronic but good old ink and paper. There's something cathartic about actually writing out your thoughts and feelings, and it can help you to put them into perspective. It can also give you a way to track how your feelings have changed, and if you jot down a thought, you can always go back to it later when you have the time to properly address it.

Also, I don't know how you handle emotional issues, but you don't have to work through this one all at once. What worked for me ( I was a BS) was to sort of put the problem on a shelf in my mind. I took it down and worked on it when I had the emotional time and energy, and then put it back for a little while. That box was hardly ever on the shelf at first, but after a while. it was there more and more. That box is dusty now, I haven't opened it in a long time, but it's still there.

[Buffer]

Good luck 😉 

[BMI03]

On 3/29/2020 at 11:34 AM, Febbow said:

....Honesty and authenticity for sure from now on it! And respect!! 👌 As an aside related to this, i don't think I will tell my husband. I think I take the guilt myself (and I have lots) and take the sadness of shutting down the 'relationship' with OM. I truly don't want to damage the marriage further so it's not some selfish motive....

 

This made me spit my coffee out laughing.

 

Febbow, this is crazy. How on earth can you pat yourself on the back with pride at how 'honest' and 'authentic' you are going to be, when the next sentence is about being dishonest with your husband and disrespecting him.

Keeping this to yourself is only in service of YOU! It is only SELFISH! If you were truely thinking about your husband, then you would be giving him the true information he needs to make his on decision for himself as to whether he wants to live the rest of his life in a relationship with someone who cheated on him and kissed another man, and who spent time emotionally entangled with someone else. Let HIM decide if that's what he wants or not. Otherwise, YOU are deciding it for him, and it is absolutely laughable that you can do that and still think you are remotely honest, authentic, and respecting him. 

Wow. Just....wow!

[BMI03]

On 3/30/2020 at 10:59 AM, Bittersweetie said:

I am not going to push you one way or another in terms of confession, but I will say this: I am 100% sure my husband and I would not have the relationship we have today if I was not completely honest with him about what I did. I gave him his truth so he could decide how he wanted to move forward. I believe one cannot build a marriage on a foundation that already has a crack in it (cracks being the lies). We fixed our foundations in the trenches ourselves and it enabled us to build another marriage. I do advocate for truth; my H told me he made a career decision when I was in my A and if he'd know the truth he would've made a different decision. I took the truth of his life away from him...think about this: what decisions has your husband made thinking his life is one way, when it is actually another?

There are no easy paths out of the situation we've created for ourselves, I'm sorry to say. That's why I asked about choosing who you want to be moving forward and then acting that way. It's a way to provide guidance. Good luck.

Well said

[BMI03]

On 3/30/2020 at 11:42 AM, Febbow said:

I will have a very deep think about my reasons for not telling my husband. I think they are pure. A part of me would like to confess and move forward but honestly if the shoe was on the other foot (and it may have been/will be ) I would prefer not to know. The jealousy would drive me insane! And of course the horrendous breaking of trust. It's sick! I am truly ashamed. I think it would damage us hugely .

...

I was intimate with my husband today  and it felt amazing . I feel like if only I put in a fraction of the energy that I did with the OM to this marriage and this amazing man (who I owe hugely). Things will be better. So much better. I wouldn't EVER cheat again. I was naieve and stupid to the max. I didn't see the slippery slope and then didn't stop it. It would have been so much easier to have stated clear boundaries and backed away with confidence and control and stepped up my efforts with the wonderful man I already had at home. This came after many years of lack of effort on both our parts. Habitual distancing and lack of true quality time. That will change. We both want it to. The kids are older and we have close family.

I think this is the most shocked I have been on this forum, to see someone so secure in their doing the right thing but simultaneously continuing to betray their spouse.

Do you realize that every action of love you share with your husband, you are tricking him and manipulating him into the action YOU want, because you have not given him the chose to decide on his own if he wants to sleep with a cheater!? It's a betrayal again, and again, and again.

At the end of the day, kissing the other man as an action is less the issue than the continual betrayal of this man's trust, and manipulation of his future to benifit yourself. You are stealing years of this man's future life and freedom by robbing him of the truth to act on his own decision making. Yes he will be hurt, but he is hurt by the actions you already took, not the action of sharing that truth with him.

You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself, and continue to be until you stop betraying this man. 

[BMI03]

On 3/30/2020 at 5:12 PM, mark clemson said:

(1) IF @Febbow genuinely changes and re-commits to her marriage then she is no longer "tricking" her husband. She is (now) genuinely as she appears (a now loyal and loving wife). She is hiding the fact of the EA/partial PA, but it is in the past, not the present.

Disagree.

Even if you remove the elements of paying for her crimes, deterrence to future discretion, etc. what you are not accounting for is the continued betrayal of her husband's freedom to make his own decisions about his own life with accurate information. If she goes the rest of her life as a wonderful and faithful wife, she will still have stolen something from him every day of that life...his freedom to make his own decisions. She will have controlled the outcomes of his life through false manipulation of his world to service her own needs.

I have spoke to this concept here before...if a close family member to you had cancer, and you knew, would you tell them? Knowing is going to hurt them, but wouldn't you want to give them the proper information (the truth) to make decisions about their future as they see fit, not by which you have decided for them by controlling that information. Well, you could say "what if the cancer wasn't life threatening?" (meaning, what if we knew he would never be hurt by this again in the future). Well, you are being hopeful, and maybe very confident, but there is a risk involved even with something with low probability, and the point is that you are taking that risk for him without his being given the chance to know it, and do something about it himself.

If you give him the chance, and he still chooses to be with you, then you have solidified his commitment in a REAL way. Or, if he chooses to leave you then you have both saved years of living a lie.

[BMI03]

On 3/30/2020 at 10:17 PM, SincereOnlineGuy said:

So she should then shatter HIM  as well??

 

That's a brilliant conclusion.

 

 

She HAS shattered him...he just doesn't know it yet. Telling him isn't the source of pain, the action already taken was. It shocks me how people don't get this. It's not the hearing you have cancer that causes the pain...it's the existence of it whether you know it or not.

[BMI03]

Apologies for all the posts...was playing some catch up

[mark clemson]

I respect your cogent and well-considered view @BMI03. This is likely moot, as OP may have decided to tell already.

One issue I see, extending your metaphor, is that since/IF the affair is genuinely over, the "cancer" has actually been cured. It no longer exists.

As I see it, the risk, at present time, is either a) recurrence or b) H discovering - "what, you had CANCER and didn't tell me. You *^&*^#(&y!!" (And we all know that affairs are not the same as cancer, and the risks to the marriage are probably greater.)

While you have a point about controlling outcomes via controlling information (to paraphrase) I disagree with the magnitude issue. People change over time, and there's no guarantee of ANY particular outcome in a marriage. Hubby may choose to leave of his own accord for any number of reasons, have an affair of his own; she may decide to leave for other reasons, etc. Also, frankly, in my personal opinion there are plenty of worse things than "living a lie" you never become aware of that can happen, such as serious disability or illness, losing children unexpectedly, etc. I suspect it can be nice to have a spouse who genuinely loves and supports you (even if they are simultaneously keeping an important secret from you) through life's changes, rather than toughing them out alone. I don't doubt there are many, many people out there "living lies" of one form or another, who are perfectly happy until it's revealed.

I'm not trying to claim this is an ethical decision, because I'm well aware it involves deception. I do see it as a practical one. Splitting up a family over some feelings and few kisses seems like overkill to me. But, depending on BH's outlook on these things, that's exactly what might happen.

[elaine567]

27 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I'm not trying to claim this is an ethical decision, because I'm well aware it involves deception. I do see it as a practical one. Splitting up a family over some feelings and few kisses seems like overkill to me. But, depending on BH's outlook on these things, that's exactly what might happen.

Exactly, it is all very well for some to sit on their high horse proclaiming "Tell, tell, tell.
They won't have to deal with the OPs kids when they ask why does Daddy not come around any more and is always angry when he does, and why does Mommy keep crying...

[GoldenR]

Using the kids as an excuse to protect herself....I'm sure she'll go for that.  After all, she used the kids to find her OM too.  

[heartwhole2]

3 hours ago, mark clemson said:

 

One issue I see, extending your metaphor, is that since/IF the affair is genuinely over, the "cancer" has actually been cured. It no longer exists.

 

The affair was not the cancer. The affair was a symptom of any myriad issues . . . lack of empathy, dishonesty, immaturity, poor boundaries, self-esteem issues, self-absorption, conflict avoidance, blame-shifting, etc. Those issues don't go away the day an affair ends. If the WS is fully committed to personal growth and becoming a person full of empathy, integrity, maturity, boundaries, self-esteem, etc., then naturally that WS will take the necessary steps to restore as much autonomy and agency to their spouse as possible. To do otherwise is to fail to become the person they should have been to avoid having an affair in the first place.

Obviously the BH would prefer never to have been cheated on. But unfortunately that's not his reality, and if his wife tries to pretend that it is, there will always be something off, always something between them. Obviously that's OK with a fair number of people, but it's not OK with me. To quote some lovely friends of mine, if you're not constantly looking at who you were 5 minutes ago and thinking, "Well gee I really didn't get it then, did I?" then you're not doing the work of being the most whole and healthy human you can be. And maybe complacency and dysfunction are OK with you as long as you don't have to deal with hard feelings, IDK. I cannot make that choice for anyone else. But I am happy to live a life full of grace and light, as best I can. We humans are beautifully resilient. We can recover from the trauma (yes, it is a trauma) of discovering our spouse's betrayal. We can let each other down and then pick ourselves up and try to do and be better. 

After all, if the WS had not "protected" their spouse from their (not so) harmless flirting in the first place, then the affair would never have happened. The idea that we can and should curate our spouse's reality so that they stay with us under false pretenses really stinks. Because when we share our whole lives with our spouses and don't keep secrets, we just don't get into the all too predictable situation that occurs when two people who are attracted to one another interact. Imagine all the things I might decide were OK if I regularly lied to my spouse . . . Well why did I marry the man if I can't share my insights and desires with him?

I know the statistics; many marriages do not survive infidelity (though, surprisingly, a majority stay together). And it is no small thing to risk separating a child's parents. But if a couple is brave, the discovery of an affair can be a crucible for burning away the dross and jumpstarting some radical change and growth. I am not glad that my husband had an affair, but I have a hard time imagining him putting in so much effort into becoming a better person if he hadn't. We didn't know how to deal with conflict before. We were complacent. We hadn't completely grown up. After the affair I saw his faults with crystal clarity and while I love him and wanted to stay together, I wasn't going to accept immaturity or selfishness any longer. He had to really look himself in the mirror, and that s*** is hard. Honestly I don't think I've dug down as deep as he's had to in order to get his life back together. 

OP, there are no shortcuts. You can't just imagine what it would be like to have your husband know and do all the hard work while protecting him. No exercise of imagination can force you out of your comfort zone like his completely justified agony at your actions can. No self-talk can keep you from slipping back into old habits and some self-indulgent grieving for the affair. If your change is to be radical then your accountability must be as well.

Edited April 14, 2020 by heartwhole2

[DKT3]

Boiled down to its simplest form.  Cheating is a selfish act, cheater would like us to believe that not taking responsibility is a selfless act by a selfish person.  Nah, that's a hard sell. Any beneficial effects for others is a byproduct of protecting themselves and not the REASON. 

To go out an have an affair then convince yourself that you are and know what's best for the person you've screwed over is, well very narcissistic,  and the very least extremely arrogant.

As far as children crying for daddy...well not cheating is what would have prevented that. 

Yes I agree op is the cancer in the marriage not the affair....her continued dishonesty and unilateral decision making shows she is still the cancer eating away the marriage 

Edited April 14, 2020 by DKT3

[pepperbird]

The OP will have to find her own way, and I really hope that she is sincere. I will say that I did see introspection  in her posts, and she didn't spend a lot of her time rationalizing her behaviour, making excuses or blaming anyone else for her actions. Those are all positive signs.

I'm hoping she's one of those people who looked into the abyss, was repelled by what she saw and will never do it again. We all make mistakes/bad choices- the thing is to learn from it.

[usa1ah]

14 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Exactly, it is all very well for some to sit on their high horse proclaiming "Tell, tell, tell.
They won't have to deal with the OPs kids when they ask why does Daddy not come around any more and is always angry when he does, and why does Mommy keep crying...

Or why mommy is never home any longer. 
 

husband should have the house and kids in this case. 
 

OP should move out for betraying the family. 
 

I really don’t think OP will be sitting around crying if her husband divorces her. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by usa1ah

[usa1ah]

Kids are better off with two healthy, loving parents. Not two people putting on an act for the sake of the kids. 
 

Divorce and let the betrayed spouse find true happiness. That is not someone that has admitted that they were never really attracted to their partner.