Thinking back after 5 years

[pepperbird]

16 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Can't bear to be alone and wants her emotional chew-toy back. Charming...

Keep in mind we are only hearing his side of the story. There's always three sides- his, hers and the truth, which lies somewhere in the middle.

[pepperbird]

2 hours ago, sandylee1 said:

If the house of cards has fallen and she can't survive without the OP, that's her own fault. 

A sensible BW, would go back and do some career training after the affair knowing her WH could up and leave for the OW or another affair could happen. 

She should have been getting herself a career in the last 5 years,  not sitting at home while the kids grow up. She should have been working towards financial independence, so that if the worst happened, she would be able to cope.

 

 

It may not be so cut and dried. I was a stay at home parent for a lot of years. It hadn't intended for it to be that way, but my husband was away so much and with three special needs kids, working outside the home wasn't an option for me. Mind you, I do work from home.

 

[pepperbird]

3 hours ago, Prudence V said:

The affair was not the start of the problems in the marriage. She wasn’t a wonderful wife before, who was transformed into a harridan through the affair. She was always a problem - enough that OP sought MC before the affair. Yes, he should have dumped her rather than turning to an A for his unhappiness. But his A was the symptom of a toxic M, not the cause. This BW doesn’t qualify for any kind of free pass here. 
 

OP has been the textbook remorseful WS, and she still treats him like rubbish. I think it’s clear where the culpability for the sad state lies, and it’s not with OP. He’s wise to dump this toxic excuse for a wife, and to forge a new life. At least his kids will have one happy home, since it’s clear BW is going to wallow in her toxic stew for as long as she can work it. 
 

And it seems she has problems with entitlement, rather than self esteem. 

I'm not to big on passing any sort of judgment on his wife, as we are only able to hear one side. Besides, int he end, it doesn't matter. None of it matters-its like blaming an OW for "luring" a husband away from is wife, which is just silly.

In the end, it really doesn't matter if she's got movie star looks, the kindness of ,mother teressa and the sex skills of the world's top porn star or of she's the wicked witch of the west. The OP has made his choice and will need to create a new lifer path that's based on that. It sounds like he's been doing his best of late to make sensible choices for himself. That will stand him in good stead.

[sandylee1]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Of course she should have, but we don't really know her mental state at the time.
Some betrayed people men and women can take literally years to get over a cheating event, if they ever do...
It is not just "nothing" to them.
 

Maybe so, but it's rather a foolish thing to remain financially dependent on him in these circumstances. 

Even 5 years ago the kids were not babies. I don't get this eternal stay at home mum thing. Situations of dependency give rise to contempt. 

You said the OP has caused her hell again by leaving...well is he meant to remain in an unhappy marriage?

Even if she was the perfect wife, he's not happy...that's the crux of the matter. Life's too short to live that way. 

I suspect she now realises that having no job or career to return to, doesn't make her particularly appealing in the dating game.

Even as a BS, doing some work on yourself in therapy is vital.  It's empowering,  it's good for self exploration and helps you navigate your worst fears...such as how you would cope if the marriage ended or if another affair comes to light in the future.

Punishing him because she feels trapped isn't healthy and it's not the kind of relationship you want to model for your children. 

Some marriages may survive dday....but the marriage is simply never the same again, because the hurt never goes and the trust never returns. 

[stillafool]

On 4/10/2020 at 12:02 PM, moonman1 said:

As to why I did not block her yet is that I feel guilty, my sons are still there.  But I am getting there.

Do your sons own their own cell phones?  If so they can still contact you and you them.  There's no reason to talk to her again unless it's an emergency with one of your sons.

[moonman1]

Thank you everyone for your advise.  Still getting calls from my wife on regular bases, sometimes begging for me to come back and other times yelling. Finally I blocked her yesterday.  But all of this is reminding me of OW so much lately.  I haven't thought this much about her in last 4 years as I have this past week.  I keep thinking back how I wrote a letter after DD at our marriage counselor and wife's request to OW, I said some harsh thing in that letter.  I feel so bad about that.  She only called me twice after that, asking me if that was true and I confirmed to just end it.  And both times told my wife that OW called.  OW was called all kinds of names including crazy by my wife. I feel bad about about that, I feel bad about marriage ending.  I really screwed up.  

[stillafool]

Why can't you get back in touch with OW?  She wasn't married was she?

[pepperbird]

3 hours ago, moonman1 said:

OW was called all kinds of names including crazy by my wife. I feel bad about about that,

why?

your wife had every right to say whatever she felt like saying. your ow is no innocent little lamb here. it's like someone who choose to walk over hot coals and then gets upset if his feet get burned.

[sandylee1]

2 hours ago, stillafool said:

Why can't you get back in touch with OW?  She wasn't married was she?

Too much time has passed.  It's 5 years ago now and rekindling a relationship would just cause more stress. 

A clean slate is a better option, when he's ready to get out there. 

[sandylee1]

4 hours ago, moonman1 said:

Thank you everyone for your advise.  Still getting calls from my wife on regular bases, sometimes begging for me to come back and other times yelling. Finally I blocked her yesterday.  But all of this is reminding me of OW so much lately.  I haven't thought this much about her in last 4 years as I have this past week.  I keep thinking back how I wrote a letter after DD at our marriage counselor and wife's request to OW, I said some harsh thing in that letter.  I feel so bad about that.  She only called me twice after that, asking me if that was true and I confirmed to just end it.  And both times told my wife that OW called.  OW was called all kinds of names including crazy by my wife. I feel bad about about that, I feel bad about marriage ending.  I really screwed up.  

The begging, then yelling are sounding like the behaviours of an abuser.

Often, the next step is threatening suicide, or a lesser form of self harm is carried out. 

[healing light]

Good riddance on blocking the wife.

Maybe you can just reach out to the OW to apologize over what happened for your own peace of mind after the divorce is final. Might be helpful for her to hear, too.

[BTDT2012]

Don't contact the OW until and unless you are divorced. She doesn't need or deserve your confusion in her life.

[lifeoflies]

On 3/30/2020 at 12:02 AM, moonman1 said:

MM here.  Been married for over 2 decades.  Wife has been a stay at home, we have two children, 20 and 18.   Financially I bring in enough money to have a good life but it is very stressful as well.  My wife worked before marriage but quit soon after we were married and never went back.  Marriage was slowly declining, sexless with many arguments.  She does not get along with many on my relatives.  We were even in counseling before I met OW.  I met OW at a work function although we work in a completely different area, she was a client.  It was slow, to eventually a lot of emails to emotional to physical affair for almost 3 years.  During this time my mother was very ill, was in a nursing home.  My wife refused to visit my mother, did not like some things my mom said over 10 years before.  My mom was a kind, gentle person but could do nothing right with my wife no matter how hard she tried.  I remember OW would often visit my mother in evenings after work while my wife was too busy planning vacations.  It was my other women who supported me through my grief after my mother passed.  I didn't spend much time with OW as I had responsibilities in evenings back then with my teenage children. 

I knew she wanted more but the thought of not being there every evening for my children was not sitting well either.  Eventually as with every affair my wife found out, it was either her and kids or OW.  We agreed to counseling, to make more effort with each other, she even agreed to get a job.  I broke up with OW, put full effort in my marriage.  It has been 5 years now, complete no contact with OW, never even looked her up. 

First few months I missed OW but I put full effort in counseling, self help books and did whatever my wife expected of me.  I sought my wife's forgiveness, she said she forgave me but brings up my affair with every argument. I have stopped talking to relatives that my wife does not get along with, I go on vacations, buy her things, first to always apologize no matter what. I still do majority of work around the house.  She never did get a job.  After trying initially marriage became sexless again.  I am lonely, exhausted and last few month find myself missing other woman.  I am starting to think time with her was best time of my life, we used to laugh, hold hands and support each other.  I don't know what I want but what I have now is just not enough.  

 

 

Sounds like my story, only I have been married for over 3 decades.  When a friend sent me links NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) I was astonished...I saw myself caught up in the madness of living with a person afflicted with this type of Borderline Personality Disorder.  My heart goes out to you.  do some research on this topic.  be careful though...what you discover might be pretty devastating.

[elaine567]

6 hours ago, lifeoflies said:

When a friend sent me links NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) I was astonished...I saw myself caught up in the madness of living with a person afflicted with this type of Borderline Personality Disorder. 

NPD and Borderline personality disorder are two completely different types of personality disorder.
Borderline personality disorder is more recently found to be normal reaction to severe stress, either due to that suffered in the past or in current relationships.

[lifeoflies]

Please tell me where you got that information.  I am not a psychiatrist so obviously I have much to learn.  The behaviors she exhibited matched NPD very closely.  I have read so much here.  Most of the posters here, including  elaine567, provide sensible advice.  My wife became abusive and violent to the point of hitting me.  she made threats to have me arrested.  perhaps i stuck my nose into something i shouldn't have.  the comment about
"slapping him" struck a raw nerve which should have been my sign to refrain from commenting. 
you are incredible people and i appreciate what you are doing

[elaine567]

Unfortunately just about everyone coming out of a bad relationship thinks their "crazy ex" is a narcissist.
Narcissism is a spectrum disorder. which means we all show narcissistic traits to a greater or lesser extent.
Online lists can point lay people to a diagnosis of "narcissism", as it is easy to match up the signs with the person in question as the specific traits are so common in perfectly normal people.
However NPD is a condition that is very complex and is a specialist diagnosis, not a tick box exercise.
Maybe your wife was a narcissist but unhappy people tend to act out and some are abusive and violent.
It doesn't make them "normal", but mental health is a huge subject and is usually best left to professionals.
I do however believe that some relationships are "crazy making" and that once out of them for good they get their sanity back, unless of course it is too late for them or they always suffered from mental health issues.
The trick is not to keep trying to diagnose them, the trick is to look at your own actions and assess why you stayed with them so long, so that that you NEVER get closely involved with such a person ever again.
Who cares if she was Bipolar or Borderline or a Narcissist or just a very nasty individual, she was abusive and hit you and that should never be tolerated by anyone.
Don't waste another minute of your time on her.

[moonman1]

OP here, I do not think my wife has any mental disorder. 

Over the last one week I have felt from being depressed to free.  This was not a good marriage.  And I know that many won't understand but a bad marriage can lead to affair when you are starved for affection.  Most of us don't go out looking for it and when it happens we get carried away without thinking of any sort of future until its too late. 

[moonman1]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2020 at 6:26 PM, pepperbird said:

why?

your wife had every right to say whatever she felt like saying. your ow is no innocent little lamb here. it's like someone who choose to walk over hot coals and then gets upset if his feet get burned.

I am not defending other woman, just now understanding that break up is not easy.  I think affair is like any other relationship, especially when emotions are involved.  Other woman calling after DD and not getting any closure must be devastating but at the time I was not suppose to worry about that.  She only called twice.  My wife on the other hand even after having years of counseling and separation discussion keeps calling multiple times per day yelling and screaming.  Yes she is blocked but calls from other numbers. 

[ABernie]

On 4/14/2020 at 11:51 AM, BTDT2012 said:

Don't contact the OW until and unless you are divorced. She doesn't need or deserve your confusion in her life.

OMG, YES!  Even if you are divorced.  Your chance with her is done.  Please don't do that to her.  I can only imagine the agony it would be if xMM came back.  One year maybe, but 5!  Way to crush her again.  "You were not good enough for me then, but you're good enough for me now"  

[lifeoflies]

yeah, leave her alone

On 4/16/2020 at 2:05 PM, elaine567 said:

Unfortunately just about everyone coming out of a bad relationship thinks their "crazy ex" is a narcissist.
Narcissism is a spectrum disorder. which means we all show narcissistic traits to a greater or lesser extent.
Online lists can point lay people to a diagnosis of "narcissism", as it is easy to match up the signs with the person in question as the specific traits are so common in perfectly normal people.
However NPD is a condition that is very complex and is a specialist diagnosis, not a tick box exercise.
Maybe your wife was a narcissist but unhappy people tend to act out and some are abusive and violent.
It doesn't make them "normal", but mental health is a huge subject and is usually best left to professionals.
I do however believe that some relationships are "crazy making" and that once out of them for good they get their sanity back, unless of course it is too late for them or they always suffered from mental health issues.
The trick is not to keep trying to diagnose them, the trick is to look at your own actions and assess why you stayed with them so long, so that that you NEVER get closely involved with such a person ever again.
Who cares if she was Bipolar or Borderline or a Narcissist or just a very nasty individual, she was abusive and hit you and that should never be tolerated by anyone.
Don't waste another minute of your time on her.

well, my friend, its not as easy as that.  my desire to diagnose her was no idle interest.  she was my girl.  i can not wipe her from my life even though, at the end she treated me badly.

Tick box eh?  I wanted to understand!!!
I do appreciate your point of view.  i have been with her for 41 years!  my sadness that it had to end is very deep. 

"waste my time"?  its not that easy .  i am culpable as well...i am not making excuses!  I feel deeply sad

i am not stupid either.  you make it seem easy.  I am NOT "everyone".

 

thank you for your time, i do see your points

Edited April 20, 2020 by lifeoflies

[pepperbird]

16 hours ago, lifeoflies said:

yeah, leave her alone

well, my friend, its not as easy as that.  my desire to diagnose her was no idle interest.  she was my girl.  i can not wipe her from my life even though, at the end she treated me badly.

Tick box eh?  I wanted to understand!!!
I do appreciate your point of view.  i have been with her for 41 years!  my sadness that it had to end is very deep. 

"waste my time"?  its not that easy .  i am culpable as well...i am not making excuses!  I feel deeply sad

i am not stupid either.  you make it seem easy.  I am NOT "everyone".

 

thank you for your time, i do see your points

I'm no expert at all when it comes to personality disorders, but from my limited knowledge, one doesn't suddenly come BPD, NPD, etc. the basic biochemical foundation has to be there in the first place. There's even a school of thought that genetics play a role- I don't know.

Lifeoflies, it sounds to me like your wife wasn't living with a personality disorder. It sounds more like she was very, very hurt. This made her very, very angry. Rather than admit that and deal with it, it just sort of sat there and festered. She took he ranger out on you in other ways.
That's incredibly unhealthy, but what's done is done.
If you don't mind a piece of advice, it's a good idea to clean up one mess before starting another. Figure yourself out before inviting someone else in.

[lifeoflies]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

Lifeoflies, it sounds to me like your wife wasn't living with a personality disorder. It sounds more like she was very, very hurt.

Thank you for your response.  I grabbed on to the NPD diagnosis because it seemed to explain what seemed so inexplicable.  I know she mistake was hurt.  we didnt divorce, which is what i would have done if i were her.  we stayed together.  i see that this was a big mistake.  in truth, my staying was cowardly.  I didnt care to resolve the issue of how i could betray her so completely.  she didnt want to split and neither did i.

I get the hurt.  I dont get the cruelty.  did i deserve payback for my sins?  I think i felt like i did deserve it.  punishment seemed like a form of forgiveness.  you do a terrible thing, you get the punishment you deserve and then you can move on, forgiven.  This made perfect sense to me at the time.  it did!  Your response seems to understand that.  thank you

in the end, "hurt" doesn't give another person license to be cruel.  it doesn't  excuse her incredible cruelty. 

 

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

If you don't mind a piece of advice, it's a good idea to clean up one mess before starting another. Figure yourself out before inviting someone else in.

I am divorcing my wife although i bristle at characterizing it as a "mess".  I get your point though.  I agree with your assertion that i  need to "figure out myself",   i am doing that, especially now with all of this alone time (COVID 19).  I am 67 years old.  I dont have as much time as you might have.  I cant wait

[pepperbird]

3 hours ago, lifeoflies said:

Thank you for your response.  I grabbed on to the NPD diagnosis because it seemed to explain what seemed so inexplicable.  I know she mistake was hurt.  we didnt divorce, which is what i would have done if i were her.  we stayed together.  i see that this was a big mistake.  in truth, my staying was cowardly.  I didnt care to resolve the issue of how i could betray her so completely.  she didnt want to split and neither did i.

I get the hurt.  I dont get the cruelty.  did i deserve payback for my sins?  I think i felt like i did deserve it.  punishment seemed like a form of forgiveness.  you do a terrible thing, you get the punishment you deserve and then you can move on, forgiven.  This made perfect sense to me at the time.  it did!  Your response seems to understand that.  thank you

in the end, "hurt" doesn't give another person license to be cruel.  it doesn't  excuse her incredible cruelty. 

 

I am divorcing my wife although i bristle at characterizing it as a "mess".  I get your point though.  I agree with your assertion that i  need to "figure out myself",   i am doing that, especially now with all of this alone time (COVID 19).  I am 67 years old.  I dont have as much time as you might have.  I cant wait

I wouldn't be so sure. Age isn't always an indicator of how much time we are allotted.
 

[elaine567]

4 hours ago, lifeoflies said:

  I dont get the cruelty. 

I guess she thought you were being pretty cruel when you decided to lie and to cheat on her.
You can't erase the past, as if it never happened.
Some people can forgive and forget and stay in the marriage and put it all behind them and learn to love and trust again, usually with the help of counselling, but others just can't.
Many will do a cost benefit analysis and decide to leave or stay depending on where their bread is best buttered and that of their kids.
Blind love, loyalty and trust for their SO can however be completely gone...

[MilaVaneela]

9 hours ago, pepperbird said:

I'm no expert at all when it comes to personality disorders, but from my limited knowledge, one doesn't suddenly come BPD, NPD, etc. the basic biochemical foundation has to be there in the first place. There's even a school of thought that genetics play a role- I don't know.

You are correct that personality disorders come from a complex mixture of both organic and environmental factors (my xH had diagnosed APD and my late mother diagnosed NPD). The main thing about personality disorders is that they are incredibly difficult to treat and can’t really be treated pharmaceutically (like as an example, someone with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or major depression caused by chemical imbalances of the brain and endocrine system can see a vast improvement with the right meds- personality disorders don’t necessarily see those benefits). 
 

The thing is, to address the self or online diagnosis, even otherwise emotionally healthy people can act irrationally and even wrongly under duress or extreme strain. That doesn’t make it right. But at the same time to label said person as personality disordered puts an unfair stigma both on the person labeled (because people will treat them according to said stigma) and to those who are living with the personality disorders and actively trying through different therapies to take part in their own healing and better themselves (because it unfairly demonizes all people who have personality disorders as always prone to just do horrible things for no reason). I hope this makes sense.