death rate in perspective

[littleblackheart]

It doesn't work. That's why gvts have to intervene. In France the Prime Minister, Edouard Philippe, lost his cool during a press conference because he was tired of telling people to stay home. There were still house parties and eating at restaurants late at night up until 3 weeks ago. That's the only reason they had to enact more severe restrictions. When left to their own devices, not everyone will comply. Sorry but during a pandemic, you can't 'do what you want to do'.

[major_merrick]

Here there haven't been any restaurants to eat at.... 

[Gaeta]

2 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

Well, we used to have a society that worked like that.  And people had more money, less debt, and more freedom.  It worked for almost everybody except those in power. 

Please extrapolate, when and where was there ever a society with no collective mind? 

[major_merrick]

Post WW2 United States is one example.  Maybe not "no collective mind" but it was not enforced by policy.  And if you suggested it, you got labeled a Red.  Now everybody's wanting collective this and that.  And presidential candidates openly praise Castro.  So we have a healthcare system that costs too much and can't handle an issue like what we have now.  And we have people shocked by death who want the nanny state to save them. 

I'm hoping that in the middle of all this, there will be a moment of realization that the current trend toward government dominance and socialism is NOT working.

[littleblackheart]

8 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

Here there haven't been any restaurants to eat at.... 

Of course there haven't. Same in a lot of other countries, including France as for 3 weeks ago or so. Because letting people do whatever they want during a pandemic is a recipe for disaster. For 'the economy' to be preserved, you need well equipped health services available to all, a safety net that means people are not worried about losing their jobs, investment in testing and a considerable loss of individual liberties (ie accept for all your movements to be tracked to checked that you are not a danger to anyone around you). Letting people die so your comfort level is unaffected is a really, really questionable moral choice. And that's putting it midly.

Edited April 4, 2020 by littleblackheart

[major_merrick]

1 minute ago, littleblackheart said:

 a considerable loss of individual liberties (ie accept for all your movements to be tracked to checked that you are not a danger to anyone around you).

Lovely.  Now I know at least one person who will happily accept the Mark of the Beast.  You have zero concept of the importance of liberty.  No wonder my ancestors got far away from Europe. 

My community's apostle is right.  The End Times are practically here.

[Ellener]

On 4/3/2020 at 2:20 PM, Beendaredonedat said:

Are you happy with ACA or would you rather have Trump's deal?  Just curious.  P.S.  I loved McCain.  A man of principals.

ACA is better for

- adult children can go on their parents' decent insurance ( if they have it ) until independent, age 26 I think it is

-no pre-existing condition can disqualify you from buying insurance to cover it

-no life time limits on claims

-people who are self-employed or small businesses can now get insurance 

-there are subsidies for people with low incomes 

However there are still lots of issues and gaps, it's nothing like a health service people take for granted in Canada and the UK and France etc.

Insurance companies make huge profits, and one way they have continued to do so is reduce the quality of the plans on offer. When I first emigrated here you could buy excellent comprehensive insurance, there's not much like that now except where unions/hr have fixed up mass deals.

Every year I have to renew I'm asked to consider what I think I might need in terms of doctors, medications etc and pick a plan based on that plus the premium and out-of-pocket costs. I'm healthy in general, how the hell do I know what might be required in the next year?

It's all very labour-intensive too, here you find your own insurance by wading through the plans, then enroll, then pick your own doctors, hospitals and specialists from what's covered by your plan. You make all your own choices, cost predictions, then appointments. It can be daunting whilst ill.

But to me the biggest weakness in for-profit medicine is...the profit motive tainting the way medicine is supposed to work! I could write a book on that...( I won't right now! )

The pandemic has people setting aside cost and insurance considerations and is promoting co-operation rather than competition, and hopefully lessons learned will be part of the next wave of reform.

 

 

-

Edited April 4, 2020 by Ellener
wording

[littleblackheart]

2 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

Lovely.  Now I know at least one person who will happily accept the Mark of the Beast.  You have zero concept of the importance of liberty.  No wonder my ancestors got far away from Europe. 

My community's apostle is right.  The End Times are practically here.

I'm not saying that's what I want to do. I'm saying that's what is needed if you want 'the economy' to carry on. I understand your reasoning, but I'm saying it is completely unrealistic to go on as nothing's happening when so many lives are at risk. I don't know what 'the Mark of the Beast' is, and whatever apostle you want to follow is your right, but the rights of those who want to protect themselves and others are equally valid. It's not a war, it's a pandemic.

[major_merrick]

The Bible foretells an evil, global, antiChristian government.  They will control all food and other supplies, all employment.  And the leader (the Beast) will stamp people with a mark "without which no man may buy or sell."  I believe that could be a microchip that will track you. 

This is the first time in history that what is foretold in the Bible is possible with technology.  It is evil, and any hint of it is evil.  Which is why those who believe the Bible react strongly against globalism, tracking, and the use of the medical establishment to control people.

A medical issue is always a broader social/class/political issue.  A pandemic is not just a pandemic, it can become a political threat.  And liberty is more important than life.

[Gaeta]

12 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

My community's apostle is right.  The End Times are practically here.

Ah ok........................

[littleblackheart]

2 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

 And liberty is more important than life.

To you.

Life (not just mine) is more important than liberty, to me. I believe that is my personal liberty to hold this precept to be true above all else. I'm not disputing your religious beliefs as they're yours to have as you wish, I just see them as secondary in the face of a medical emergency.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, major_merrick said:

Which is why those who believe the Bible react strongly against globalism, tracking, and the use of the medical establishment to control people.

Most of us who follow the Bible in particular the teachings of Jesus don't have your take on these things, you are extrapolating your own personal experience and belief system there and making assumptions.

 

[amaysngrace]

My daughter had a patient last night who tested for co vid but the test came back negative.  

She was in full PPE for the entirety of her shift.  Everybody working there wears it as standard.

Some out-of-state second-home owners think they’re entitled to come to their second home rather than staying put at their primary residence.  One island town has decided to issue citations to anyone who is in violation, stating it’s a public health crisis.  The fine they’re getting is $1000.  I hope all these beach towns follow that same path. 

[FMW]

15 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

those who believe the Bible

Many of my family are fundamentalist Christians and strongly believe the Bible.  They don't share your view.  

Believers have felt that end times are near for many, many generations.  They've interpreted the signs of the times in a way that can fit the descriptions in Revelations and other references throughout the Bible.    

The World could end tomorrow.  But today we continue to make choices that we hope will help us continue to live.  Clearly the views on what those choices should be vary widely.  

I'm extremely concerned about our economic future because of this situation, and to be honest I'm not thrilled with being told by my government what to do.  But until this situation is under control I'm following the restrictions.  There are no good options right now.  

 

[Beendaredonedat]

1 hour ago, major_merrick said:

The Bible foretells an evil, global, antiChristian government.  They will control all food and other supplies, all employment.  And the leader (the Beast) will stamp people with a mark "without which no man may buy or sell."  I believe that could be a microchip that will track you. 

This is the first time in history that what is foretold in the Bible is possible with technology.  It is evil, and any hint of it is evil.  Which is why those who believe the Bible react strongly against globalism, tracking, and the use of the medical establishment to control people.

A medical issue is always a broader social/class/political issue.  A pandemic is not just a pandemic, it can become a political threat.  And liberty is more important than life.

What bible did you get that from?  Can you quote the chapter/verse?

[nittygritty]

As far as shutting down all of the “non essential businesses” for a virus pandemic this has never happened before in my lifetime and hopefully won’t ever happen again. I’m not sure what is different about covid-19 versus flu related pneumonia and deaths other than how quickly it has spread and overwhelmed healthcare systems. And the lack of medical equipment and how to treat it. I’m sure some people thought they just had the flu and waited too long before seeking medical treatment.

I honestly think my parents may have gotten it in early February but even though they were both put on medicine including antibiotics by their doctor it took them several weeks to get over. It was certainly more than just the average case of the flu. By the time the tests came out they were over it and never tested. Thankfully, they are both doing well but for many people especially the elderly that has not been the case. 

[Beendaredonedat]

Glad to hear they are okay, Nitty.  I doubt that they had Covid19 though because I don't think antibiotics work on this virus.  Researchers/scientists are still working to create a medicine that will lessen the symptoms and for a vaccine that will help us to prevent getting it in the first place.  

[nittygritty]

Just now, Beendaredonedat said:

Glad to hear they are okay, Nitty.  I doubt that they had Covid19 though because I don't think antibiotics work on this virus.  Researchers/scientists are still working to create a medicine that will lessen the symptoms and for a vaccine that will help us to prevent getting it in the first place.  

I think they both took double rounds of antibiotics to treat the green phlegm they were coughing up. Whether whatever virus they had went into pneumonia or bronchitis, I’m not sure. And I do realize that their age makes them more fragile for any kind of virus or illness but this was definitely more than just the average case of any kind of respiratory illness that they had ever had before. There are so many unknown variables with Covid-19 of how it can effect people differently. And yes the researchers/scientists/ medical professionals are making remarkable progress in treatment and no doubt a vaccine will be developed soon

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, nittygritty said:

I think they both took double rounds of antibiotics to treat the green phlegm they were coughing up

Secondary bacterial infection.
The virus damages and inflames the tissues and bacteria then invade

[SincereOnlineGuy]

On 4/2/2020 at 12:40 PM, elaine567 said:

My guess this is the "Spanish flu" 2020 style.
This is not overreaction.
 

Uh,  the Spanish Flu killed 5% of India's population.

 

Covid has killed 86 people in India to date   (13 million would be about 1% )

 

Do you think Covid will get to 68 million deaths in India?

[nittygritty]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Secondary bacterial infection.
The virus damages and inflames the tissues and bacteria then invade

Yes I think that can happen with most viral respiratory illnesses where infection occurs. Whatever it was I hope they have some immunity to it. But they are on total lockdown from leaving the house and we bring them meals and get their groceries for them and maintain physical distance. It’s scary stuff. We are not taking any chances of them getting sick. 

[elaine567]

This is just starting in India...
How many ventilators and intensive care beds are there for the masses?
That is what will  be the bottom line as to how many will die.
 

[schlumpy]

3 hours ago, major_merrick said:

I think there'll be a high price to pay and probably some kind of push for medical tyranny.  The powers that be will use this to consolidate control, rather than working purely for our benefit.  I also don't believe in "collective social responsibility."  That's communist talk.  The personal cost that everybody is paying is unneeded and detrimental. 

Nice leap into the future Major. Just two days ago I was floored when one of the doctors on TV was espousing how he wanted to do this every year for the flu. He may have been a lone and isolated voice but he and others are out there.

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, major_merrick said:

"Collective" is always related to something free people shouldn't want.  

But ... don't you live in a compound and have one common husband for a "collective" of several wives / random women, and follow strict rules administered by a central power center (cult / church) and enforced by an armed militia?  Does not sound very free.

Kind of poking fun, but in all seriousness - generally, free people aren't going to be told what they  "should / shouldn't " want by others.  Your "collective" is very small and confined by walls, specific rituals  and guns, but you're still not each out for yourselves.  Those of us who live outside in the world and would like what's best for others around us are simply part of a more encompassing collective.  At root, not that different. 

[major_merrick]

3 hours ago, Beendaredonedat said:

What bible did you get that from?  Can you quote the chapter/verse?

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."  Revelation 13:16-17.  KJV.  Pretty simple.  That wasn't possible in the 1st century.  Now it is.  So when people talk about mandatory tracking, vaccination, or whatever....it is extremely chilling.  I'll pass on submitting to a totalitarian government controlled by Satan, and I'll oppose anything that even resembles it.

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

Kind of poking fun, but in all seriousness - generally, free people aren't going to be told what they  "should / shouldn't " want by others.  Your "collective" is very small and confined by walls, specific rituals  and guns, but you're still not each out for yourselves.  Those of us who live outside in the world and would like what's best for others around us are simply part of a more encompassing collective.  At root, not that different. 

Ah, but my community is voluntary.  Versus the kind of collective "society" that nobody will be able to opt out of. 

In the end, whether TPTB created and released Covid19 on purpose or are simply using it as a tool - don't be surprised if restrictions on liberty to remain in place after this is over.  If it is ever over.  And even if TPTB don't get to keep their restrictions, the economic damage they have created will last a long time.  TPTB want you to be poor and dependent.  The virus is not the real threat if you aren't part of a specific vulnerable group.   When you trust the folks in white coats and expect government control to save you, you're already in danger.