where is it going?

[wtm78]

we are separated for 10 months, she always ran back to her mom place when we quarrel. this time longer than usually probably this time i went to look for her first. June to September, i was trying to engage her, she was not keen to come home. on the October i went to find her at her mom place, she wouldnt let me in. so i told her if she doesnt want to settle the issues, she can pack her things and leave. she did that, she pack her things and left. same month i brought her to my counselor and discuss if we are going to settle the issues or get a divorce. she said after hearing what i said she will let me divorce her. my heart sank and i walk out. we go NC since. on the new year day in Jan i asked her out, she said she had been waiting for me to come look for her but i didnt show up all these time. so she wants to be alone. that same month my grandma pass. since she wanted to be alone i told if we are going to get a divorce then i didnt let her know. when she found out she was furious. scolded me.. she came to the wake but wouldnt talk to me when i approach her. my mom saw and went to talk to her about her sulking. she blamed me for bad mouthing her. after the funeral, i ask her out to talk. she declined. 2 weeks later, she ask me if i would like to join her at her family dinner, but i told her i was having with mine. she was upset again. 2 days later she asked if she can visit my parents. and again, she came and not willing to talk to me when i approach her. the next few days when i contact her, she said she just want to be alone to forget all the negative things in the marriage. in feb i asked her out and the dinner ends with her wanting to be alone and crying and her walking off. 2 weeks later i ask her if she wants to come over, i made chicken soup. she wanted to meet outside for coffee instead. after coffee, i asked if she wants to have the soup since i already made it. she declines and said i am forcing her to do something she doesnt want. we left cordial that day and i stop contacting her. she texted in 2 weeks later asking how i was doing. that was already march. i wasnt doing well at all, emotionally and my business due to the virus and economy, but i didnt want her to know so i answered short and vague. she asked if i need help with the mortgage of the house, i told her no need. that was last i heard from her. 1 week later, she forwarded me news articles links of relief help for this season. i sent her a birthday wish text the same month. that was the last i heard from her.

i have no idea how separation works. but its hard to get to know what she is thinking if she is not talking, and her actions seems to be conflicting. i am tired, real tired, drained in fact. perhaps even lost. any sound advice would be appreciated. 

[preraph]

She's concerned about you but doesn't want to get back together.  She needs to break with your family though and not try to keep being friends with them.  Obviously, there isn't much left to this union.  You two need to make a clear break and both of you adjust.  

[Pleasant-Sage]

On 4/6/2020 at 1:11 AM, wtm78 said:

i have no idea how separation works.

While lots of situations share similarities, everyone's separation is unique. There's really no way to know how to play your hand perfectly when your goal is to reconcile. Reconciliation might not even be possible. It's always a gamble at best. That doesn't mean it's without hope tho.

All you can do is the best you can. When you've had enough abuse, just let go and stop worrying about her and her feelings. She's not really worried about yours or she would have been nicer about the death in the family or she would have came home already.

My guess is guilt is hitting her hard when she reaches out to you. She does just enough to make herself feel better then....off she goes.

When you're ready, focus on your own happiness. You're probably not going to know how to do this. No one usually does when it happens. You just have to stumble around in the dark until you find a way out.

Rely on your family and friends or make some new ones if you feel like you need help with that. You've sort of taken that step by coming here.

I can't stress enough though that YOU have to be the one that decides when it's time to throw in the towel and focus on your own happiness.

If people are giving you advice that you don't want to hear, don't discuss it with them until you're ready to hear that type of input.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Pleasant-Sage

[wtm78]

On 4/9/2020 at 7:33 AM, Pleasant-Sage said:

While lots of situations share similarities, everyone's separation is unique. There's really no way to know how to play your hand perfectly when your goal is to reconcile. Reconciliation might not even be possible. It's always a gamble at best. That doesn't mean it's without hope tho.

All you can do is the best you can. When you've had enough abuse, just let go and stop worrying about her and her feelings. She's not really worried about yours or she would have been nicer about the death in the family or she would have came home already.

My guess is guilt is hitting her hard when she reaches out to you. She does just enough to make herself feel better then....off she goes.

When you're ready, focus on your own happiness. You're probably not going to know how to do this. No one usually does when it happens. You just have to stumble around in the dark until you find a way out.

Rely on your family and friends or make some new ones if you feel like you need help with that. You've sort of taken that step by coming here.

I can't stress enough though that YOU have to be the one that decides when it's time to throw in the towel and focus on your own happiness.

If people are giving you advice that you don't want to hear, don't discuss it with them until you're ready to hear that type of input.

 

so true.. not really sure how to look for my own happiness... i am almost 40, and i am still hoping to create a family, if she has intention to reconcile maybe say something like, yes i would like to reconcile someday, but right now i need to work on myself... or if she does not have intention to reconcile, its fine with me too. at least be truthful and let me know, so we can move on... file the divorce, take some time to heal, and start dating again... but no.. i cant talk to her about divorce without her screaming and kicking a tantrum... make me wonder what is she even thinking?? she just want to stay separated.. want to be alone... no indication if she wants to reconcile or not... what's her plan??? just waiting till she is ready to move on and then tell me??? that is just unfair isnt it??... 

and yeah... a lot of people are just blaming me with sterotypes of how lousy a man and a husband i am... perhaps the people who have been talking to me are mostly females, and seems to be projecting their anger with their husband onto me...  most of the time they dont even bother asking what happen and just starts with, " you must have..... done this" " you must have.... done that..."you must be a pig...." do i really deserve that?? 

[preraph]

Her wanting to be alone is a pretty good indication that she does not want to reconcile. Maybe she's hoping you magically change into someone she can tolerate being with.

 

You never have said what you're quarreling about. You haven't said if you're both working, what your situation is, if there are any situations like alcohol or addictions involved. All you've said is variations of we are separated and she wants to stay separated but I want to reconcile. 

So it might help to have a little more details.

 

[wtm78]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

Her wanting to be alone is a pretty good indication that she does not want to reconcile. Maybe she's hoping you magically change into someone she can tolerate being with.

 

You never have said what you're quarreling about. You haven't said if you're both working, what your situation is, if there are any situations like alcohol or addictions involved. All you've said is variations of we are separated and she wants to stay separated but I want to reconcile. 

So it might help to have a little more details.

 

 

Maybe she's hoping you magically change into someone she can tolerate being with.

-> recently she kept saying that i do not accept her as a person... that is really a sweeping statement... 

 

You never have said what you're quarreling about.

-> actually, if might not believe this... the counselor i was working with from 2017-2018 and the other one from 2019-present, couldnt figure out the problem... 

the timeline goes like this... before we got the house, i told her that cleanliness and tidiness is a great deal for me, and i wanted to talk things through to make sure that it will not be a big problem living together. so she says she is actually a very neat person and she is clean and she promised she will be that way when we have our own place... but because she lives with her hoarder grandma... you should have seen their living condition, roaches and lizards crawling around the kitchen basin... things stacked up so high in the room and even on the bed... the storage room is filled to the brim and things might collapse if you open the door... so of course i took her words a pinch of salt... during house hunt, i wanted a small place, because if she does not clean, it is still manageable for me.. and i made it very clear to her, i do not enjoy cleaning.. i wanted a 700sqft or less apartment.. but she wanted 1200sqft and above.... in the end we compromised and agrees to look for something 900-1000sqft.... and throughout the search, we viewed at least 120units.. and we cant agree on a unit we both like... and throughout the house hunt, she kept showing me units above 1200sqft and say, we should view this... even though i kept reminding her to focus on the parameters that we set... but of course, having viewed 120units and being so worn out.. we went to take a look at a few units above 1200sqft and so she wanted them... and promised that she WILL do all the housework and PROMISE that she WILL keep the house CLEAN and NEAT. SHE PROMISED... so you guess what happened.. being an inexperience husband to be... i gave in... and even before we moved in, i ask her to make a chore list so we can split the chores... but NO... SHE SAID SHE WILL DO EVERYTHING!!! 

so of course she did not live up to her promised. and i point out those things that really irritated me, like the used sanitary pad in the middle of the kitchen floor, used mask beside the bed which i step on in the middle of the night, slip and landed my spine on our platform bad... 

-> and all these are still not the issue for me... because i was trying to be reasonable and talk things through... i thought as long as we can talk things out calmly we can maybe settle our differences.... THE REAL ISSUE is... when i am trying to talk these things through, she gets very personal, and highly sensitive and highly emotional... 

when I'm upset with something (repeated) -> talk to her about it -> she goes crazy, defensive etc -> I feel unheard and frustrated -> wait for her to calm down -> talk to her again -> she continues to be defensive, not going to acknowledge my complain -> I get pissed -> she gets more defensive, insist i am criticising -> she cry, shutdown or ran home -> I get more pissed -> wait for her to calm down -> the cycle continues

over time, contempt builds up. but i had been real and vulnerable in expressing my innermost needs and desires. i am met with so much resistance and feel unheard. sometimes feeling a sense of abandonment. even when i tell her in this manner, she would continue to insist i criticise her. I get no validation. 

long story short, there are deeper issues in the marriage other than the petty issues (which are just smoke bombs), and she refuses to go counseling. so throughout the marriage, i felt really helpless and i told her that i am not her enemy and we really need to figure a way to start working together or we will end up in a divorce... and it doesnt help when she cant control her emotions enough to have a decent conversation...on top, she keeps running to her grandma's place for days (its either this or self harm), then flies for work for a week... that attitude of sweeping everything under the carpet and expect me to pretend that nothing happens... is getting a toll on me over the years... until a day, she runs to her grandma's again, and i went over.. but she refuses to talk.. so i told her our house is not a hotel.. if she likes to run to her grandma's so much and enjoys flying for work so much and if she doesnt want to talk, then she can pack her things and leave.... and she did, she came over packed her things and leave... and then in her reality claims that i threw her out of the house... after that, i gave her some space, and looked for her... for 4-5 months we talked like husband and wife, without physically living together.. i gave her her space, she wanted to work on her healing... of course considering that she needs to work on herself and not come home and starts to take the knife again.. somehow she doesnt want to work on identifying the deeper issues, she keep looking on the surface and keep insisting that i criticized her (which i did not). so i set up a joint session with my counselor... and in that session she was willing to go, but she said in the session, she is not keen in counseling... and concluded that she wants grant me my wish to divorce her... which of course, i walked out of that ridiculous session... after that she claims that after she walked out, she clarified with my counselor if i just told her i wanted to divorce her, claimed that counselor said yes i did.. which i also clarify with my counselor and he said that was not what had happened... 

so in her head she had this fragmented reality, that i criticized her, saying that she is not good enough, not accepting her as a person, kicked her out of the house, and told her in front of a third person (the counselor) that i wanted to divorce her.... 

i asked my counselor... he cant answer me... i also ask him if i am crazy or is she mentally unstable?? he said i seem to be cognitive doing fine and he cant diagnose her... so i really dont know what is the issue...

Edited May 3, 2020 by wtm78

[preraph]

Well if she came from a hoarder, she doesn't even have the skills to live normally. and of course as you know it's unreasonable to expect her to do all of the housework even if she says she will just so she could get you to get her a bigger home. I doubt she can even keep one room straight because where would she learned that if she lives with a hoarder? 

 

She has severe mental problems if she's doing self-harm. Sometimes people do self harm because they don't feel like they are heard but with her situation growing up who knows how many contributing factors there are. 

 

after reading this my question to you is are you nuts for wanting to stay with her, and the answer is yes. You are crazy for wanting to stay in this mess. You are self-defeating. You could be with someone who was much more normal and had life skills and lead a less conflicted life.  But instead you choose this, so I don't see how anyone can help you since you're not helping yourself here. You need to get a divorce and walk away from this mess.

 

And you still haven't said yes or no to whether there are drug or alcohol problems exacerbating everything.

Edited May 3, 2020 by preraph

[basil67]

Preraph is right that if she comes from a hoarding situation, she wouldn't have the skills to keep house.  Yes, you can say what you want the house to be like, but she's grown up with, and is comfortable with, a hoarders house.  It completely explains what's going on with her leaving stuff around.   Her mental instability could easily have been caused by going from a situation she was comfortable in to a whole new world with someone on her case about unlearning everything she's comfortably lived with to date.  

Do I understand correctly that she works and is also expected to do all the domestic work?   

[basil67]

19 hours ago, wtm78 said:

and yeah... a lot of people are just blaming me with sterotypes of how lousy a man and a husband i am... perhaps the people who have been talking to me are mostly females, and seems to be projecting their anger with their husband onto me...  most of the time they dont even bother asking what happen and just starts with, " you must have..... done this" " you must have.... done that..."you must be a pig...." do i really deserve that?? 

No, not a lot of people.  Some perhaps, but it's also difficult to get history from you.   After all, it's only now that we find out she comes from a hoarding background - and this would explain so much.  And I've also just learned that she works - so now I'm wondering if she is expected to work and care for the house alone.  

I've suggested you let the small stuff slide, but this is not about anger at my husband.  Rather, it's about gratitude that I live in a household where we each let things go and save 'conversations' for the important things.  You said that you imagine that all marriages have these little things on a daily basis, I'm struggling to remember where either of us corrected the other last time.   I'm trying to impart wisdom, not beat you down.   

She's from a hoarding background and so out of her depth it's not funny.  It's no wonder she's broken down trying to live to your standards.   If there's a future for the two of you, it would involve getting a housekeeper and learning to not correct her each time she does something you don't like.  

[preraph]

Yes, a housekeeper.  Do you think that would put an end to the bickering or not?  I live alone and I hire one from time to time.  

[wtm78]

17 hours ago, preraph said:

Yes, a housekeeper.  Do you think that would put an end to the bickering or not?  I live alone and I hire one from time to time.  

Yes I used to have a weekly housekeeper. She does general cleaning and tidying. 

We as homeowners should also do our part. Not leave things around for the housekeeper to clean up. At least that's my personal value.

[preraph]

Well, see, you want to make her conform, not solve the problem in a way that might actually work. You're not going to change her.  

[wtm78]

18 minutes ago, preraph said:

Well, see, you want to make her conform, not solve the problem in a way that might actually work. You're not going to change her.  

Oh no.. please don't get me wrong... 

Was sharing my values. With her, I was also sharing my values.  

I used to eat ice cream in the bedroom, she told me not to and I stopped. I wanted a TV in the bedroom, she say she doesn't want electronics in bedroom. I respected that. 

I was just doing the same thing she did to me, by sharing my values. Would have been nice if I could been shown the same kind of respect.

But Like I mentioned before, the house work are just smoke screen to the deeper issues we had. I wasn't able to have a safe space to share my thoughts. While she takes everything I said as criticism and accusations. This conflict in ?? (I don't even know how to describe this issue, empathy???) makes it difficult to get along.

[preraph]

She doesn't have good life skills because of where she came from.  Dysfunction.  I'm just saying, she isn't going to change and you'll beat your head against the wall trying to get her to see logic.  Logic isn't her normal.  Dysfunction is.  

[wtm78]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

She doesn't have good life skills because of where she came from.  Dysfunction.  I'm just saying, she isn't going to change and you'll beat your head against the wall trying to get her to see logic.  Logic isn't her normal.  Dysfunction is.  

Thank you Preraph for being so patient with me.... 😌

You are right, learning to let go of expectations.. everything else is a bonus

[preraph]

I know it's probably on one of these threads, but can you tell me if she works full-time and contributes financially?  If she doesn't want to do any of the domestic stuff, then maybe she can work more hours or take a second job and at least help pay for a maid and other things, but only IF you think the rest of the relationship is worth salvaging.  Like I've worked 2 jobs most of my life and part of the reason is so I can have someone else clean once in awhile, but I'm not a pig about leaving things laying around, so it's not a huge issue like with someone who just lives like that.

[wtm78]

sure its fine to take turns cleaning like in your case, or do the bare minimum pick up after yourself... we are all working and we all are tired... and yes she works full-time and does contributes financially on groceries. 

i just unhappy that i pay for the house  that i didnt want and related bills with the condition that she promised she will clean up after herself and she will keep the house tidy, but in the end she did not clean up after herself. happily goes of to work, to hang out with her friends, to hang out with her family, run her sister's errands, her brother's errands, her mom's errands, flies off to work.... and left me to clean up and handle everything myself... the most frustrating is when i bring this up, she doesnt listen, cuts me off with her cries and yelling. somtimes punches me.. punches herself, run back to her grandma's... 

i feel taken for granted, abused, disrespected. thrown under the bus... she create a mess i have to clean up, just like she create problems and i have to deal with it myself... i feel alone in the marriage and i feel like i have to handle everything and i cannot be down or fall ill. because if one day i do fall sick like my dad who is a stroke patient, i will still have to take care of myself and clean up the problems she created.. and you know what... she isnt even bother to address my concerns or hear what i have to say... or maybe she just expects that i accepts that fully 

[basil67]

53 minutes ago, wtm78 said:

the most frustrating is when i bring this up, she doesnt listen, cuts me off with her cries and yelling. somtimes punches me.. punches herself, run back to her grandma's... 

i feel taken for granted, abused, disrespected. thrown under the bus... she create a mess i have to clean up, just like she create problems and i have to deal with it myself... i feel alone in the marriage and i feel like i have to handle everything and i cannot be down or fall ill. because if one day i do fall sick like my dad who is a stroke patient, i will still have to take care of myself and clean up the problems she created.. and you know what... she isnt even bother to address my concerns or hear what i have to say... or maybe she just expects that i accepts that fully 

Because she CAN'T listen. She is not actively trying to abuse, disrespect or throw you under the bus.   She's falling apart without hoarding as her comfort and you're copping the fallout because you are the one who's taken her from her safe place.

[DKT3]

There are alot of excuses being made for your wifes lack of basic cleanliness.  I got stuck on the used pad in the kitchen.  

To be honest,  your wife sounds mentally and emotionally unstable.  I agree with the others that its likely a result of her environment growing up.  With that being said,  you are expecting your wife to respond to logic, if she is unstable, logic is likely illogical for her.

I don't think this marriage can be saved since she refuses help, and you don't seem to grasp her instability. 

[wtm78]

On 5/5/2020 at 9:09 AM, basil67 said:

Because she CAN'T listen. She is not actively trying to abuse, disrespect or throw you under the bus.   She's falling apart without hoarding as her comfort and you're copping the fallout because you are the one who's taken her from her safe place.

I agree she can't listen.

Her grandmother is the hoarder, not her. She is just messy and disorganized. And probably a fragile ego. She may not have much experience in handling her own emotions. 

Everything must be happy and fine for her. Rigidly unable to enter bad emotions.

[wtm78]

On 5/5/2020 at 9:44 AM, DKT3 said:

There are alot of excuses being made for your wifes lack of basic cleanliness.  I got stuck on the used pad in the kitchen.  

To be honest,  your wife sounds mentally and emotionally unstable.  I agree with the others that its likely a result of her environment growing up.  With that being said,  you are expecting your wife to respond to logic, if she is unstable, logic is likely illogical for her.

I don't think this marriage can be saved since she refuses help, and you don't seem to grasp her instability. 

Yes I agree. My logic is logical to me and apparently her logic is also logical to her.

Somehow there is a clash in both our energy. It's like opposing forces at work. 😞

[basil67]

5 hours ago, wtm78 said:

I agree she can't listen.

Her grandmother is the hoarder, not her. She is just messy and disorganized. And probably a fragile ego. She may not have much experience in handling her own emotions. 

Everything must be happy and fine for her. Rigidly unable to enter bad emotions.

How do you know your wife hasn't taken part in the hoarding?  The used sanitary pad on the floor is the kind of thing a hoarder would do.  And after all, your wife is happier in the hoarding house than with you.

And this is NOT about a fragile ego or trouble handing emotions or inability to enter bad emotions.  Your wife is suffering from a mental illness. 

[wtm78]

3 yrs ago today, we got married. And she text me out of the blue, updating that she had spoke with her lawyer regard to the fastest way to divorce. She ask if I have any preference who to file for unreasonable behaviour.

I only got better on my feet last 2 days... It's like she knows when I'm getting better, and I had been picking myself up and just as things gets better for me, something will just hit me with a blow again. 

[schlumpy]

20 hours ago, wtm78 said:

3 yrs ago today, we got married. And she text me out of the blue, updating that she had spoke with her lawyer regard to the fastest way to divorce. She ask if I have any preference who to file for unreasonable behaviour.

I only got better on my feet last 2 days... It's like she knows when I'm getting better, and I had been picking myself up and just as things gets better for me, something will just hit me with a blow again. 

I think you need to file for separation so that both of you can reassess your marriage and determine if you want it to continue.

You are on a run-a-way train and not too far down the tracks the bridge is out.

[emprosnet7]

It is difficult to understand the text, try using paragraphs and start sentences with capital letters.

I don't know if you have kids together, if you don't RUN for your life. Get a divorce and free yourself.