Politics and COVID-19

[NuevoYorko]

10 hours ago, amaysngrace said:

I’m glad to know my post was lost on you.

 

Your post was not lost on me.  I disagree with you.  You're free to not associate COVID-19 with politics in your mind or conversation, but most of us will, because we are in the situation we are today BECAUSE  of political forces.  

If that were not the case, science and medicine would be at the fore, helping to promote a united front on how the US will address this virus.   Instead, we have  every state, hospital and individual doctor, pretty much fending for themselves, with their "leader" on TV calling them names and berating them for asking for more supplies.  That is completely insane.

Edited April 9, 2020 by NuevoYorko

[elaine567]

4 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

 Instead, we have  every state, hospital and individual doctor, pretty much fending for themselves, with their "leader" on TV calling them names and berating them for asking for more supplies.  That is completely insane.

Yes. and our "leader" in the UK is in Intensive care with Covid-19 and has left a vacuum and chaos behind him.
Yesterday we had 938 deaths and a jump in cases, yet all are faffing around apparently scared to tell the population the lock down will continue.
They are mired in "procedure"
938 deaths in a day is as high as it ever was in Italy, yet there is no firm hand in Govt. saying the lockdown will be here for weeks yet.
They are waffling on about flattening the curve, green shoots of recovery, making cooing optimistic noises about opening schools, and a section of the population are just carrying on as normal.

Govt: Please stay at home.
Some of the public: No, I don't think I will bother, no-one tells me what to do,  its all nonsense and exaggeration anyway, politicians are all liars...
Govt.: Oh OK then...

[Ellener]

5 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

we are in the situation we are today BECAUSE  of political forces.  

If that were not the case, science and medicine would be at the fore, helping to promote a united front on how the US will address this virus.   Instead, we have  every state, hospital and individual doctor, pretty much fending for themselves, with their "leader" on TV calling them names and berating them for asking for more supplies.  That is completely insane.

The United States lack of comprehensive health care system is 'the elephant in the room' then when 27 million people in America are still uninsured despite the reforms and another 38 million have inadequate coverage. That does not even take into account 'inadequate coverage' issues like the way we have to choose aspects of our health insurance policies based on predictions of what we might need in the coming year, or if we get too sick and have unaffordable 'cost-sharing' expenses...numerous odds stacked against the sick person just because politically we have been too cowardly to dismantle a corrupt and morally bankrupt model of medicine.

A crisis brings a lot of things into scrutiny which political rhetoric and vested interest lobbies usually cover up!

[Ellener]

@elaine567 I think if people will elect ( that's how it used to work anyway, elect them ! ) conservative ( small c ) leaders they get conservative policies and even in the face of dire need the status quo is prioritised and maintained.

That said- the last pandemic had similar arguments and mixed results too I think. Even today that virus is not fully understood. In 2018 a group of scientists looked at the 1918 pandemic in depth and noted

'When considering the potential for a modern era high severity pandemic, it is important; however, to reflect on the considerable medical, scientific and societal advancements that have occurred since 1918, while recognizing that there are a number of ways that global preparations for the next pandemic still warrant improvement.

Besides the properties of the virus itself, many additional factors contributed to the virulence of the 1918 pandemic. In 1918, the world was still engaged in World War I. Movement and mobilization of troops placed large numbers of people in close contact and living spaces were overcrowded.'

A lot of the information we are finding out personally is not new. 

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Govt: Please stay at home.
Some of the public: No, I don't think I will bother,

In the face of the fact some people aren't staying home then shouldn't that influence the majority to do just that? The ones who are not essential workers? I'm not being forced to stay home but the knowledge that the pandemic is peaking here and noting that some people are just donning a mask and plastic gloves and going out as usual anyway persuades me staying home is the logical sensible thing to do.

 

[Ellener]

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/reconstruction-1918-virus.html

is the link to 'The Deadliest Flu: The Complete Story of the Discovery and Reconstruction of the 1918 Pandemic Virus'

[littleblackheart]

On 4/8/2020 at 1:53 PM, amaysngrace said:

But on topic, I don’t get why so many people feel the need to politicize this.

I agree this shouldn't be politicised. I don't think it is in countries where governments have the trust of the population, regardless of political leniencies. I also don't think saying the current situation has been grossly mismanaged by some gvts is a political stance when it's simply a fact.

I read that while Florida got their orders of masks / ventilators / medical equipment in full within 3 days from the federal gvt, other less politically expedient states (like WS, Illinois or Maine) didn't get what they requested from the Strategic National Stockpiles. That, to me, is politicising the situation. 

That is actually quite disturbing.

[gaius]

Florida didn't really request much compared to other states which was part of the reason it got everything it wanted. With a population of 21 million it requested 180,000 n95 masks and received them all.

Oregon for example requested 400,000 masks and received 40,000. But they only have a population of 4 million. 

[littleblackheart]

That makes sense, though it's not as straightforward for other states like Washington State? That also doesn't seem to reflect how well stocked the states are in the first instance? I don't want to find fault where there wasn't one, but there does seem to be a level of arbitrarity in the way things have been handled by the current administration.

[gaius]

On 4/7/2020 at 11:13 AM, Tamfana said:

I only listen to Trump to counter his schlock. That's why our household quarantined March 4 when Trump was STILL saying the virus was very mild.  It was clear he was lying and/or stupid and that he'd make it worse.  (I haven't admitted it yet, so here I will- I also shuttered one business on Feb 19, almost completed, ruthless capitalist that I am.)  

March 4th, the day before Bill De Blasio hopped on the subway to convince New Yorkers to keep packing themselves in like cattle twice a day because there wasn't anything to worry about.

Trump's half the problem. Don't ignore the other half.

[NuevoYorko]

 

How can we not look at this through a political lens when the "leader" of the country makes sure to tell the world that his "love" for a state is why they get a GREAT job?  Michigan:  an important red state.  Whitmer:  a Democratic governor.

I love Michigan, one of the reasons we are doing such a GREAT job for them during this horrible Pandemic. Yet your Governor, Gretchen “Half” Whitmer is way in over her head, she doesn’t have a clue. Likes blaming everyone for her own ineptitude!

Of course the fact of the pending election and trump's big fight to prevent voting by mail is another unavoidable political angle.  

 

[Tamfana]

4 hours ago, gaius said:

March 4th, the day before Bill De Blasio hopped on the subway to convince New Yorkers to keep packing themselves in like cattle twice a day because there wasn't anything to worry about.

Trump's half the problem. Don't ignore the other half.

The other half, for me, is Arizona Governor Doug Ducey.  

I turned on the news last night to hear people saying that we're starting to plateau, maybe bending the curve.  Yet again, my jaw dropped.  Yeah, NYC, maybe the tristate area or the eastern seaboard are nearing the end, but there's a whole country out here. The myopia is stunning. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Tamfana

[Ellener]

4 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

How can we not look at this through a political lens when the "leader" of the country makes sure to tell the world that his "love" for a state is why they get a GREAT job? 

Yes, Trump really is an unparalleled PR disaster if American people weren't so adherent to their 'faction'!

And Trump was born in NY, he doesn't seem to have much affection for it...

[Ellener]

6 hours ago, gaius said:

Bill De Blasio hopped on the subway to convince New Yorkers

He doesn't have Covid though does he?

There have been lots of speculative statements handed out as facts though, you are right.

[schlumpy]

The reason for President Trump's success is that he fights back. It's that simple.

The republicans are notorious for sucking it up and taking it without comment. The second President Bush being a poster boy for that style of politics. The theory is that the President shouldn't bother with light weights and be above the fray but reality is that other people get to define the administration because of the unwillingness to engage. 

President Trumps departure from that style has disaffected many establishment republicans as well as a befuddled press and democratic party but to the disheartened republicans at large who had just ate a crap sandwich called the ACA, he was a voice in the wilderness.

He is their champion. 

[Ellener]

 

2 hours ago, Tamfana said:

here's a whole country out here.

The BBC did an article today called Two US towns, two very different experiences:

'The severity of the outbreak in small towns is determined by a number of factors - towns in sparsely populated states such as Arkansas, South Dakota and Wyoming have been affected only slightly, while those in Ohio, Michigan and Illinois, densely populated areas with big airports and busy interstates, are more likely to suffer.

A century ago, people in the US also saw an uneven pattern of infection.'

and

'The reasons for the disparity today among small towns - with those in Ohio feeling the effects more acutely than those in Arkansas - is still partly because of luck. But the way that people in small towns live is determined not only by geography. Politics plays a role, too.

Conservative Republican governors in a number of states, including Wyoming and Arkansas, have not issued stay-at-home orders, while most Democratic governors and some moderate Republicans have issued one. Governor DeWine of Ohio, a Republican, was one of the first to adopt a stay-at-home measure.

President Trump recently extended the timeline for his recommendations on social distancing and other measures to contain the virus. Medical experts say these steps will help prevent the spread of the disease.

However, Mr Trump had earlier downplayed the health crisis and said the coronavirus was like an ordinary flu.

The conservative governors of Arkansas, North Dakota and several other states underscored his message by choosing not to issue stay-at-home orders. Telling people to stay at home helps to contain the disease, but this measure wreaks havoc on the state's economy.'

Be interesting to ask Governor DeWine why he 'predicted' this would be more serious than at first thought and started his state shut-down early.

 

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Govt: Please stay at home.
Some of the public: No, I don't think I will bother, no-one tells me what to do,  its all nonsense and exaggeration anyway, politicians are all liars...
Govt.: Oh OK then...

I like your point. People are often pretty stupid, and politicians who want to get re-elected tend to take a lighter hand. Unfortunately, that's democracy. China didn't have this problem for too long, but - do you really want a CCP-style government in charge (during non-pandemic times)? Me neither. Switching over (to draconian rule) is hard; switching back is normally much, much harder. It is, genuinely, a price we pay I think. Even though I'm pretty normal and no doubt pretty boring from an internal-threat perspective, I don't care to be tagged and tracked as part of the normal course of life.

[Ellener]

@schlumpy it does surprise even me, an English-American of many years, how unaccountable politicians are becoming in the polarised 'faction battle'.

'My country right or wrong is like saying "my mother-drunk or sober" ' the writer GK Chesterton said, but 'the spin' is no longer about our great USA:

someone else started a thread about will the US have another Civil War, to my mind that adherence to one side or another regardless of the issue or facts or televised recordings is our modern-day civil war.

[Ellener]

49 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I don't care to be tagged and tracked as part of the normal course of life.

Oh you are, very much so, just in a materialist-extreme-capitalist society it's a big-business enterprise! 

And it's not so benign either when millions of comfortable Americans adopt an 'I'm alright, Jack' attitude to fundamental precepts of modern life like health care, and look away from violation of other people's human rights or excessive profiteering.

People are all shocked now the pandemic has their lives affected and threatened, and politicians may or may not be seeing the error of their ways; we'll see if greater empathy comes from it all.

 

[mark clemson]

True, but I'm allowed to turn my cell phone off and drive a classic car to the grocery store, if I want to. I don't want to give anyone ideas, but I assume retailers aren't selling their security footage to data companies yet (they'd lose at least some business) + cell phones do it anyhow for those who don't care.

Maybe one good thing that will come out of COVID will be that wearing things that happen to interfere with facial recog technology will become more acceptable.

[Tamfana]

HA!  I thought the same thing!  It's kind of hilarious.  There are some other divine ironies in this mess. We might end up getting hand-marked paper ballots because of COVID, which election experts have been militating for for ages, AND are most needed now that we know the election will be attacked again, this time with the door wide open. It's almost enough to make me believe in a God.   

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Tamfana said:

It's almost enough to make me believe in a God.   

Belief in a cruel God makes for a cruel man...( Thomas Paine ) so pick a decent version 😇

[Tamfana]

51 minutes ago, Ellener said:

 

The BBC did an article today called Two US towns, two very different experiences:

'The severity of the outbreak in small towns is determined by a number of factors - towns in sparsely populated states such as Arkansas, South Dakota and Wyoming have been affected only slightly, while those in Ohio, Michigan and Illinois, densely populated areas with big airports and busy interstates, are more likely to suffer.---

 

Yeah, there are many subcultures, and lots of fascinating articles and books about them and how we interact and fit together or clash.  I live in the 5th largest urban area in the country massive, sprawling, the Phoenix AZ metro- because I care for my mom.  But yeah I'm a small town midwestern girl to my bones.  I think DeWine just follows the science.  Much of what we know now "we" (humanity, the info was available) already knew in January.  I figure DeWine just watched, assessed and acted.  My governor in AZ on the hand still hasn't really formally shut us down, mostly kinda sorta in dribs and drabs.  Our health services director resigned. It's been a mess.  And Jan & Feb is big time party and event and festival time here.  We aren't really testing here so we'll see what happens.  

[Tamfana]

10 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Belief in a cruel God makes for a cruel man...( Thomas Paine ) so pick a decent version 😇

Yeah, a god who would give us those unexpected benefits would be a good god, right?

[nospam99]

The BBC lost all credibility with me permanently years ago. They came to a nearby city, interviewed a few people in public housing, and ignoring all successful industry and small business, higher education, and other institutions and strong infrastructure, closed the piece with the statement ''[city name], everywhere you look is poverty''. All media has political agendas. But there are lines of death that not all cross. Believe the BBC if you wish. I shall not.

[Ellener]

I ❤️ BBC

I don't like to extrapolate too much from my own small world and BBC is global. Usually well researched and well written too, sorry you read something you disagreed with there @nospam99 They've covered the pandemic very well.

Our local newspaper tried to turn it into a 'panic-demic' to quote my favourite local Jazz station, so I stopped reading them for now, they used to be excellent but now I think they are just desperate to compete and stay in business, "everyone" used to get that newspaper delivered then everything went online ( and you have to whitelist their ad-blocker ) now the pandemic.