UK PM Boris Johnson now moved into intensive care.

[chillii]

On 4/10/2020 at 10:09 PM, Libby1 said:

I'm glad to hear that he is now out of intensive care, but his government 's overly laid back approach to this several weeks back has contributed to many of our people being less lucky.  I saw on Twitter that the Sun is celebrating his release from the ICU with the headline "Now that really is a Good Friday!!"  On a day when the UK has had something like 1,000 coronavirus related deaths in a 24 hour period, that's a total slap in the face to all the families who lost a loved one today.

Yeah l sorta agree , l mean he is very very lucky . Saw something with that Tom Hanks joking around about getting it and thought the same , l mean a filthy rich actor with a blessed life gets it and gets off and very very lightly , ok so what's new of course he did , but don't go gloating about it and cracking jokes just total insensitivity and disrespect for the 100s of 1000s of people out there that lost loved ones that weren't so blessed.

[chillii]

Just saw clip on borris though just before and he was very very grateful and super respectful to everyone involved and thanking everyone very genuinely , so that was  nice to see.

Edited April 13, 2020 by chillii

[Foxhall]

One thing about this virus, it is a great leveller in one sense- that Boris Johnson or Tom Hanks for instance are just as likely to get the illness as your average "nobody" for want of a better word,

its probably not completely equal either- in the sense that the rich and famous will be ensured the best medical treatment where as your average joe may not,

Are some peoples lives worth more than others,

I suppose healthcare systems worldwide are doing everything they can to save lives, but when you read of hospitals where choices are bring made- who gets a ventilator, who does not, 

lets hope everyone gets a fair chance.

 

 

[elaine567]

Yes Boris's speech was all very well but the NHS has been on its knees for years due to Tory cuts.
Sourcing cheap already trained immigrant staff to fill positions. 
Why pay to train doctors and nurses if they can just be brought in to the country as required
BUT they are then left with a huge shortfall in staffing levels due to a failure to recruit suitable staff.
Poor pay, overworked, under appreciated, makes for "good people" leaving and "good people" not being attracted to the work.
As the  overall status of working for the NHS went down, then it became a lot easier to under-fund as the "power" of the staff reduced.

[schlumpy]

47 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

lets hope everyone gets a fair chance.

There is always hope.

In the states if you want to be a organ donor they will put it on your drivers license so that the hospital can carve up your brain dead body after your fatal car accident. I always let it be shown I was willing.

Then about 15 years ago a Pennsylvania politician (sorry if I've forgotten the name) needed a liver or something and used his connections to get himself to the front of the line.

The next time I renewed my license I told them I was no longer willing to donate my organs.

Extreme reaction? One time incident or the tip of the iceberg? Maybe. I'll concede that but it's the only thing within my power that I have control over. 

[schlumpy]

55 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Sourcing cheap already trained immigrant staff to fill positions. 
Why pay to train doctors and nurses if they can just be brought in to the country as required
BUT they are then left with a huge shortfall in staffing levels due to a failure to recruit suitable staff.
 

I read a few months ago where Germany has senior care centers out of country located in the third world. Not sure what the patients family does for visitation. Perhaps it's voluntary or the patient has no living friends or family.

How is the communication skills of the foreign staff?

When I was in college (admittedly a long time ago) the teachers aids were many times foreign students. They were brilliant at what they did but they could not convey the ideas because they had a poor grounding in English. From their point of view it was because we were all idiots. Then there is the problem that dialects are much more prevalent in Europe then they are here in the states.

I remember a trip my wife and I took in Germany. We were about a 160 kilometers south of Weisbaden and stopped for directions at a gas station. My wife told me she barely understood the man she talked with which I did find surprising. If I were travel 160 klicks in the states, I would not notice a difference in speech patterns.

[Philosopher]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Yes Boris's speech was all very well but the NHS has been on its knees for years due to Tory cuts.
Sourcing cheap already trained immigrant staff to fill positions. 
Why pay to train doctors and nurses if they can just be brought in to the country as required
BUT they are then left with a huge shortfall in staffing levels due to a failure to recruit suitable staff.
Poor pay, overworked, under appreciated, makes for "good people" leaving and "good people" not being attracted to the work.
As the  overall status of working for the NHS went down, then it became a lot easier to under-fund as the "power" of the staff reduced.

The Tories had frozen doctors and nurses pay for several years after the global financial crash as part of their austerity programme. I think they have started to increase their pay but I guess it is still quite a less in real terms that in was 10 years ago. Therefore it is not surprising the NHS had many unfilled positions going into this crisis. 

I do hope after this, Boris Johnson, given he was saved by their efforts and the rest of government have far greater appreciation for the NHS and their staff and starts funding it and paying their staff properly.

[elaine567]

Quote

The first dispute involving nurses took place when student nurses opened their first NHS pay packets in July 1948. Despite having received a modest pay rise, an increase in National Insurance contributions meant their take-home pay had gone down. Outraged students at St. Mary's Hospital, Plaistow, organised a protest rally and a march, threatening to resign en masse if their demands for better pay, shorter hours and general improvements in conditions weren't met. The march made headlines but won few concessions from the Ministry of Health. Complaints from student nurses about poor conditions, long hours and low pay were common for much of the post-war period. 

Nothing really changes... nor I guess will it...

[schlumpy]

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

I do hope after this, Boris Johnson, given he was saved by their efforts and the rest of government have far greater appreciation for the NHS and their staff and starts funding it and paying their staff properly.

Yes indeed. I always found it to be very useful to pull out all the stops when the big brass showed up.

[Ellener]

'Britain's Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, is well versed in the history and culture of ancient Greece. He knows that Western literature begins with a plague, the epidemic described in the opening book of Homer's Iliad - of which Boris can happily declaim scores of verses from memory. And his political hero has long been the ancient Athenian leader, Pericles, whose bust sits in his office in 10 Downing Street.

The prime minister has often quoted admiringly the stirring oration given by Pericles to honour the dead after the first year of a destructive war against Sparta. And he will be well aware that Pericles gave a second famous speech a year later, after a devastating plague, probably a form of typhus, had killed around one third of Athens' citizens.

Both orations were reported by the contemporary historian Thucydides, whose searing description of the Great Plague is worth reading for its literary virtuosity alone. Commentators today have drawn parallels between the responses of Athenians - ranging from the heroic to the contemptible - and those of valiant NHS staff and scared panic-buyers today.

But surprisingly, none has drawn attention to the lesson Thucydides himself intended. What doesn't change, wrote the historian, is human nature; you can expect people to react in similar ways when they encounter events like those that have occurred in the past. He embarked on his work, he says, because a clear grasp of the events he was living through could guide responses to similar events in future.'

( BBC today ) The article says those lessons are:

First, that people should avoid becoming infected by close contact, and that medical staff and carers should be protected.

Secondly, that the law must continue to function robustly.

And thirdly, that it is important for people to preserve a positive state of mind.

 

[schlumpy]

24 minutes ago, Ellener said:

'Britain's Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, is well versed in the history and culture of ancient Greece. He knows that Western literature begins with a plague, the epidemic described in the opening book of Homer's Iliad - of which Boris can happily declaim scores of verses from memory. And his political hero has long been the ancient Athenian leader, Pericles, whose bust sits in his office in 10 Downing Street.

The prime minister has often quoted admiringly the stirring oration given by Pericles to honour the dead after the first year of a destructive war against Sparta. And he will be well aware that Pericles gave a second famous speech a year later, after a devastating plague, probably a form of typhus, had killed around one third of Athens' citizens.

Both orations were reported by the contemporary historian Thucydides, whose searing description of the Great Plague is worth reading for its literary virtuosity alone. Commentators today have drawn parallels between the responses of Athenians - ranging from the heroic to the contemptible - and those of valiant NHS staff and scared panic-buyers today.

But surprisingly, none has drawn attention to the lesson Thucydides himself intended. What doesn't change, wrote the historian, is human nature; you can expect people to react in similar ways when they encounter events like those that have occurred in the past. He embarked on his work, he says, because a clear grasp of the events he was living through could guide responses to similar events in future.'

( BBC today ) The article says those lessons are:

First, that people should avoid becoming infected by close contact, and that medical staff and carers should be protected.

Secondly, that the law must continue to function robustly.

And thirdly, that it is important for people to preserve a positive state of mind.

 

I really cannot argue with the conclusions therein contained. I am a very great believer in human nature.  Thank you Ellener. I will look up Thucydides this week and read about the plague. 

[Ellener]

@schlumpy it's fascinating, and where our concepts of modern medicine and scientific method originate:

'He modelled his method on that of the most innovative medical practitioner of the day, the physician Hippocrates. Rather than prescribing prayers and religious rituals, spells and incantations, or exotic herbs and quack remedies, Hippocrates and his contemporaries were visiting sick patients, meticulously noting their symptoms, and keeping track of how they responded to prescribed treatments such as sleep, exercise, and the regulation of diet. Boris Johnson was a patient at St Thomas' hospital, and is likely to have been participating in a medical trial that compares treatments for Covid-19 - so it may be that Hippocrates will come to his mind, as well as Pericles and Thucydides.

"One of the worst aspects of the plague was the despair into which people fell on finding they had the disease. Those who were convinced they had no hope were much quicker to give up and die," observed Thucydides. "Another was the rate of infection among those who flocked to care for and doctor to others: they died in droves, and had the highest incidence of mortality… In addition, the plague led to greater crime, since criminals calculated on escaping detection and penalties." '

Hopefully we are way too civilised these days for crime to go up 🙂

[chillii]

18 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Yes Boris's speech was all very well but the NHS has been on its knees for years due to Tory cuts.
Sourcing cheap already trained immigrant staff to fill positions. 
Why pay to train doctors and nurses if they can just be brought in to the country as required
BUT they are then left with a huge shortfall in staffing levels due to a failure to recruit suitable staff.
Poor pay, overworked, under appreciated, makes for "good people" leaving and "good people" not being attracted to the work.
As the  overall status of working for the NHS went down, then it became a lot easier to under-fund as the "power" of the staff reduced.

 

Ahh right , figures , yeah don't know anything about behind the scenes or the politics there.

 

 

 

 

 

[carhill]

On a lighter note....