Outrage: NYC subways still running and NY leaders are hypocrites

[nospam99]

I heard from a 'third party source' that the NYC subways are still operating. Rather than perhaps put that source on the spot, I did a little confirming research and offer two news links

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/nyregion/coronavirus-nyc-mta-cuts-.html
https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/coronavirus-in-nyc-subway-cut-backs-leads-to-packed-commute/

f***ING STUPID! OUTRAGEOUS!

1) Anyone who has ever ridden the subway in NYC (or the bus, or the Long Island Railroad, or Metro North) knows that there is no 'social distancing' there. Instead, a metaphorical virus on the subway is the happiest virus in the world. NYC is the 'epicenter'? This stupidity is more than sufficient reason for that! If the Fearless Leaders (see point 2 below) REALLY wanted to stop the virus, they'd have shut down public transit weeks ago. How many weeks ago? As early as March 9, I was contacting my NY Assemblyman asking why the state hadn't already cancelled all government-scheduled mass gatherings.

2) Cuomo and Deblasio whining about how terrible it is in NYC is revealed as pure hypocrisy by their failure to do anything about this.

3) The media is equally guilty of hypocrisy and neglect for having ignored this.

I don't want to hear (though of course I will because no one stands up to the Fearless Leaders) anything more about how terrible the virus is in NYC (and the commuter counties whose residents rode the same petri dishes of public transit). The virus is not, but the scale of the infection in those areas is totally the responsibility of Cuomo and Deblasio.

[Ellener]

It's an interesting topic @nospam99 because NY is totally dependent on mass transit to ferry essential workers.

It has been discussed in the media in recent days and Metro Transportation Authority President Pat Foye said last week “Most people should stay off mass transit." 

Here in Houston, the country's third largest metro area we have very little public transport and of course the city is consequently sprawling and car-bound. 

But in a situation like a pandemic that is helpful.

The rest of the time I am sure the increased pollution puts a strain on people's respiratory problems!

[Tamfana]

1 hour ago, nospam99 said:

I heard from a 'third party source' that the NYC subways are still operating. Rather than perhaps put that source on the spot, I did a little confirming research and offer two news links

Give them some leeway.  Many government officials wrongly assumed that the federal government would lead, probably because we all pay for FEMA (the Federal Emergency Management Agency) and historically the federal govt does coordinate nationwide emergencies.  But Bannon.  So give folks a bit of a break as they scramble to fill the void.  There are (and long have been) comprehensive federal plans but Trump's not using them so state and local leaders really couldn't have known he'd punt.  Hey, at least you're getting tests and testing, unlike AZ. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Tamfana

[Ruby Slippers]

Many people rely on public transit and have no other way to get to work - work at hospitals, grocery stores, and all the other essential places we need to be functional. I personally would avoid it as much as possible now - but not everybody has that degree of choice.

[lana-banana]

Have you actually seen the subways lately? The ONLY people riding are essential workers. They're empty otherwise.

Thousands of the city's most essential workers don't have any other way to get to their jobs. Most New Yorkers are doing a great job of staying home. But yes, transit must stay open for those who have no other option.

[nospam99]

LOL - yeah - 'essential' workers - like to keep liquor stores open ...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/03/20/coronavirus-new-york-liquor-stores-essential/2887048001/

Another outrage that would be funny if the virus wasn't out there. But worse now since it's the lame excuse to not close the subways. How many hospital workers could drive to work in their personal cars? How many grocery store workers could walk or ride bicycles? How many businesses 'declared' 'essential' are not essential at all? I don't know. But I don't hear the Fearless Leaders (and the people who think they're doing a good job) or the media asking these questions.

[Woggle]

A lot of people in general are being stupid. When I was driving home after my grocery run last week I noticed a lot of people crowding around. It isn't sinking in with people how serious this is.

[Gaeta]

It's a problem every society has to face. The subways in my country are still up and running as hospitals and grocery workers need it to get to work. Then the subways got almost empty so they cut the hours and we're back to having more people per train. The solution for the subway users is to wear masks and glasses and to be careful. There is noway a society can protect 100% everybody. Especially in a society where only 50% observe social distancing.

[Gaeta]

18 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

LOL - yeah - 'essential' workers - like to keep liquor stores open ...

There is a social reason the liquor stores are still open. All this was carefully analyzed: there will be more compliance from people if you don't cut them their alcohol, it also avoids having a bunch of people resorting to vendalism to get their alcohol. I am not getting into people going out to get their alcohol on the black market if you close the liquor stores etc etc. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Gaeta

[NuevoYorko]

22 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

Another outrage that would be funny if the virus wasn't out there. But worse now since it's the lame excuse to not close the subways. How many hospital workers could drive to work in their personal cars? How many grocery store workers could walk or ride bicycles? 

"Regular" people in NYC generally do not own cars.  Those who do rarely keep them parked near their apartments; they certainly don't drive them to work because there is no parking.  People that don't use public transportation take cabs or Uber.   People who live close to work and can walk to work generally do; it's more convenient than walking to the station, going in, waiting for the train, being packed in the train etc.  I'm talking about in "normal" NYC life.

"Regular" people don't ride bikes on the streets of many NYC areas unless they are daredevils and I don't know anyone who even keeps a bike in their apartment.  Sure, it's probably much safer now that it's so empty on the streets, but if you don't have a bike, you don't have a bike.  There is also the issue of what to do with a bike once you get to the destination.  It's not like there are bike racks everywhere like there are in, say, Austin or PDX.

MTA has cut service by 25% and that has resulted in more crowded trains / busses, which seems to have defeated the purpose of cutting back.

Essential workers getting to their jobs is not a "lame excuse" for keeping subways running, regardless of whether people working in businesses you don't deem "essential" or just random folks are using them as well.  

Edited April 7, 2020 by NuevoYorko

[lana-banana]

Gaeta is correct, but liquor stores are also essential because without them alcoholics could die. I don't know of any state that has closed liquor stores.

Edited April 7, 2020 by lana-banana

[Woggle]

2 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

There is a social reason the liquor stores are still open. All this was carefully analyzed: there will be more compliance from people if you don't cut them their alcohol, it also avoids having a bunch of people resorting to vendalism to get their alcohol. I am not getting into people going out to get their alcohol on the black market if you close the liquor stores etc etc. 

Also if a severe alcoholic quits cold turkey they could go into withdrawl and be hospitalized which would tie up resources.

[gaius]

I don't know how it is in New York but around my part of Florida basically any business owner that's friends with a politician is being declared essential. Lot's of construction and sales still being left open. Plenty of people still driving around on the roads as well.

[nospam99]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram a tool to analyze chains of cause and effect relationships

Just picking on one counter-argument for a pseudo-Ishikawa chain. Could do the others but I see where the LS consensus is.

We need liquor stores for the health of alcoholics and to promote compliance
Liquor stores are essential
Liquor store worker are essential workers (similar chains for other 'essential' workers)
Essential workers need public transportation
The subways can't be closed

Then if you accept my assertion that subways, and public transportation in general, promote the spread of air borne pathogens, coronovirus among them, NYC and the commuter counties just have to deal with a lot of infections. Nothing else can be done.

Personally this is all bulls*** to me because I don't drink, have no problem complying with emergency restrictions, and can ride my bicycle or walk to work. For purposes of this post, I'll control my snarkiness about other people who don't check off on those three bullet points.

Edited April 7, 2020 by nospam99

[lana-banana]

11 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

Personally this is all bulls*** to me because I don't drink, have no problem complying with emergency restrictions, and can ride my bicycle or walk to work. For purposes of this post, I'll control my snarkiness about other people who don't check off on those three bullet points.

So anything that doesn't personally affect you is bullsh-t? When you pay taxes on roads you don't use, is that bullsh-t too? Lots of things can be great and even necessary ideas regardless of whether you as an individual derive any benefit! Crazy, I know.*

South Korea and Singapore didn't shut down their public transit. Public transit is not in and of itself a disease vector, especially not when compliance is high. New York's restrictions on essential businesses have been pretty tight and in line with what most other states are doing. If there are 1 or 2 people per subway car then it's really not that much of an issue. And, again, there's not another option. Most people in NYC don't have cars or live within biking distance to work.

(* I think about this when people gripe over student loans too. "What, loan forgiveness? What about all the people who paid theirs off?" They should be happy that other people will have that advantage. If I beat cancer and then a few years later somebody cures cancer, I'm not gonna be mad that I don't benefit from it because I'm not a sociopath.)

[Gaeta]

25 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

Personally this is all bulls*** to me because I don't drink, have no problem complying with emergency restrictions, and can ride my bicycle or walk to work. For purposes of this post, I'll control my snarkiness about other people who don't check off on those three bullet points.

I don't understand so much aggressivity toward this. 

Everybody should be like you? not drinking like you? and living at a walking distance from work like you? 

I don't drink, never did, my bf never drink either. We don't care about liquor stores but I fully understand why the authorities decided to let them open. 

[nospam99]

@lana. Can't let your student loan to cancer analogy pass without disagreeing. People do not choose cancer. People do choose to take student loans. If they don't pay those loans off they are choosing to do so. That is a failure of personal responsibility and personal integrity, neither of which apply when getting cancer. In my value system (which I assume you disagree with), people should sacrifice as much as necessary to pay off any loan, student loans included. Finally, the 'fairness' of someone beating cancer means nothing because that cure is not a product of a system totally under the decision control of human beings. Student loans are totally under the control of human beings. Anyone being 'forgiven' any loan when I've never been forgiven a loan (and I and my children have had several) is, at least to my mind, both unearned and 'unfair'.

[Woggle]

I heard in some states gun shops are being considered essential. I guess people think they can shoot the virus.

[nospam99]

@gaeta. No, other people don't have to be like me, which is why I tried not to be snarky about other people's personal standards. All I wanted to do in that paragraph was list my reasons for disagreeing with the arguments for keeping public transportation running in places hit by air borne epidemics. I don't necessarily live in walking distance from work. I am willing to bike 30 miles one way if I have to. I'd more likely rent a car if I didn't own one. I've never had a problem finding street parking in NYC and it 'should' be easier if non-essential businesses are closed.

Edited April 7, 2020 by nospam99

[nospam99]

@woggle. Some people think there is enough risk of rioting that they will need to defend themselves.

[Gaeta]

1 minute ago, nospam99 said:

All I wanted to do in that paragraph was list my reasons for disagreeing with the arguments for keeping public transportation running in places hit by air borne epidemics.

It's a matter of weighing the pros and the cons. Closing the subways would create a shortage of hospital workers. There are measures to take the subways and be safe, there are no measures available to a hospital that half its staff is absent which means more deaths.

[amaysngrace]

9 minutes ago, Woggle said:

I heard in some states gun shops are being considered essential. I guess people think they can shoot the virus.

My son just got his permit.  I’m good with that.  

He hunted once when he was 12, shot a deer his first day out, then felt so bad about killing an animal that he never went hunting again ❤️

[lana-banana]

1 hour ago, nospam99 said:

Anyone being 'forgiven' any loan when I've never been forgiven a loan (and I and my children have had several) is, at least to my mind, both unearned and 'unfair'.

This mindset is so alien to me. It would be a net benefit to society (and the economy, and general humanity, and...) to forgive medical and most student loan debt. It would help so many millions of people. Why does it matter if it's "unfair"? It helps everyone, including you, even if you aren't a direct beneficiary! 

The people panic-buying guns are just pathetic. Now is the time to help your neighbors, not fear them. The only people buying guns should be those who have a legitimate threat to their well-being and safety, e.g. people whose spouses are violent.

[gaius]

All that student loan "forgiveness" has to be paid by someone eventually. It's basically shifting the burden off the people who have the greatest ability to pay it back, the college educated, and sticking it out in the debt nether. To maybe be foisted on lots of people who had nothing to do with it at some point. And don't have the same ability to pay it back.

An even better idea, figure out how to make college cheaper. So people don't have to take out house size loans in the first place.

 

[Woggle]

Some people want others to suffer just like them. Instead of wanting society to be better and future generations not to go threw what they did they want to pass the pain down.

I have mixed feelings about buying guns. I am somebody who would rather help than fear people but I know that if society breaks down things can get ugly very fast. I am sorry but that is just how many people are. I was at the grocery store and the way people were acting scared me and the staff looked like they had been in a war. If this goes on long term then I can understand why people would want protection. I am not some right wing gun nut but self preservation is the number one law of nature.