Outrage: NYC subways still running and NY leaders are hypocrites

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, nospam99 said:

I'll control my snarkiness about other people who don't check off on those three bullet points.

a noble endeavour.

2 hours ago, nospam99 said:

Some people think there is enough risk of rioting that they will need to defend themselves.

a strange argument isn't it, if you believed that wouldn't said rioters also go get arms? 

3 hours ago, lana-banana said:

I think about this when people gripe over student loans too. "What, loan forgiveness? What about all the people who paid theirs off?" They should be happy that other people will have that advantage. If I beat cancer and then a few years later somebody cures cancer, I'm not gonna be mad that I don't benefit from it because I'm not a sociopath.

Funny! 

I personally am hoping that we rethink the whole medical provision in the USA in response to all this, rethink a lot of things to make things better. 

[schlumpy]

3 hours ago, Tamfana said:

 Many government officials wrongly assumed that the federal government would lead, probably because we all pay for FEMA (the Federal Emergency Management Agency) and historically the federal govt does coordinate nationwide emergencies.  

Then they have no business being in office and should resign immediately. I have yet to follow a natural disaster in the states where it has not been pointed out that the federal government role is support. Why would you want someone who lives Washington D.C. making on-the-ground decisions for people in New York? 

[Ellener]

@schlumpy this situation is unprecedented. 

[Gaeta]

15 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

. Why would you want someone who lives Washington D.C. making on-the-ground decisions for people in New York? 

The goals of the Federal Government response to a pandemic are to: (1) stop, slow, or otherwise limit the spread of a pandemic to the United States; (2) limit the domestic spread of a pandemic, and mitigate disease, suffering and death; and (3) sustain infrastructure and mitigate impact to the economy and the functioning of society (see Stages of Federal Government Response between Chapters 5 and 6).

Reference: The National Strategy for pandemic Implementation Plan.

 

[Ruby Slippers]

47 minutes ago, gaius said:

All that student loan "forgiveness" has to be paid by someone eventually.

Exactly. To put myself through college with no parental financing, I had a number of scholarships and grants, but also had to take out loans for tuition that rose exponentially during my 4 years of college. It took me 20 years to repay those loans. I sacrificed a great deal to finance my college education.

So I'm supposed to live like a pauper and spend 20 years paying off my student loan debt, then turn right around and pay off the student loan debts of all these other people through increased taxes coming out of my paycheck? I don't think so. 

I do agree, though, that the college loan industry is out of control and it needs to change. But it makes no sense to forgive loans while huge loans are still being given out to teenagers like candy.

[schlumpy]

2 minutes ago, Gaeta said:

The goals of the Federal Government response to a pandemic are to: (1) stop, slow, or otherwise limit the spread of a pandemic to the United States; (2) limit the domestic spread of a pandemic, and mitigate disease, suffering and death; and (3) sustain infrastructure and mitigate impact to the economy and the functioning of society (see Stages of Federal Government Response between Chapters 5 and 6).

Reference: The National Strategy for pandemic Implementation Plan.

 

Those are wonderful goals that can only implemented if the state involved asks for the assistance of the federal government. The feds cannot swoop in and alleviate local elected officials of their political power. We have a constitution that must be observed.

[Gaeta]

25 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

 if the state involved asks for the assistance of the federal government. 

Sorry but you'll have to show me where the States have the veto on pandemic measures. Only the Federal government controls the borders and the power to keep people in or out. States do have some power to some extent but the big boss is suppose to be a leader and a guide. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Gaeta

[Tamfana]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

Then they have no business being in office and should resign immediately. I have yet to follow a natural disaster in the states where it has not been pointed out that the federal government role is support. Why would you want someone who lives Washington D.C. making on-the-ground decisions for people in New York? 

They coordinate and we, taxpayers, have paid taxes for federal disaster relief.  The president has a Defense Production Act that only he (not mayors or governors or legislatures) can employ.  Instead mask and ventilator exports from the U.S. increased dramatically in early 2020 and Trump's now-promised fed contracts for PPE and ventilators won't be completed until after the coronavirus peak.  

States typically do coordinate w the feds- at least FEMA- for hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, oil spills, planes flying into buildings and such.  I’m not aware of any state governments saying that THEY didn’t want to follow standard practice of federal leadership and coordination with the states. 

I believe that what occurred was that Trump blew it, lied about the threat and probably didn’t even understand it (see his not understanding that more testing doesn’t result in more cases- doesn’t understand), then once it was clear he’d failed already (70 day delay), he pretended that all along he had expected the states to be on our own, yet without telling mayors or governors for weeks.  That gives him strawmen to blame, an election year bonus- blame the bad “them.”  

Edited April 7, 2020 by Tamfana

[Ellener]

I imagine people on a local level know how to get things done best in their own state. But FEMA comes in with the bigger resources.

It's what hapens here anyway when there's a major disaster. 

 

 

[NuevoYorko]

4 hours ago, nospam99 said:

Then if you accept my assertion that subways, and public transportation in general, promote the spread of air borne pathogens, coronovirus among them, NYC and the commuter counties just have to deal with a lot of infections. Nothing else can be done.

Personally this is all bulls*** to me because I don't drink, have no problem complying with emergency restrictions, and can ride my bicycle or walk to work. For purposes of this post, I'll control my snarkiness about other people who don't check off on those three bullet points.

It seems obvious  that you've never been to NYC or perhaps even seen a TV show or movie that depicts it as it is ... 

So you can ride a bike, walk, and you don't drink.  Very good! ⭐ 

It's not the same in NYC.  You're giving me the impression that somehow New Yorkers  "deserve" to die horrible deaths because they live in a big crowded city where public transport is a necessity.  In fact,  NYC is considered to be the "financial capital of the world."  It contributes the 2nd most GDP, and income tax,  to the country, following California, and is the 2nd most powerful city in the world after London.  Whether you care or not, it's important to the entire US and the world.  It's a valuable place even if you aren't quite grasping why it matters. 

Because you are able to ride a bike to work and you don't drink?

Your "bullet points" aside, your thread here is entitled "Outrage" and goes on to state "NYC leaders hypocrites."   I'm not sure how maintaining public transportation to people who are considered essential employees is outrageous or hypocritical.   

 

 

[lana-banana]

People complaining that the federal government shouldn't be involved in national emergencies are willfully ignorant. What we're seeing right now---states bidding against each other and foreign countries for critical supplies like ventilators, PPE, etc---is because the federal government *wasn't* involved. A coordinated federal response would have provided states the necessary aid through the proper processes and ensured everyone had what they needed to confront the crisis.

I have no idea why people think state governors are supposed to function like independent presidents. States do not exist independently of the federal government or even each other. We are supposed to be in a functioning democracy where we're all on the same team and where everyone has rights as an American regardless of who you voted for.

[NuevoYorko]

3 hours ago, schlumpy said:

Then they have no business being in office and should resign immediately. I have yet to follow a natural disaster in the states where it has not been pointed out that the federal government role is support. Why would you want someone who lives Washington D.C. making on-the-ground decisions for people in New York? 

Really?

My parents' home was demolished in the Loma Prieta Earthquake in 1998.   Where did the funds come from for them to rebuild? Aside from their earthquake insurance, which they did carry,  FEMA.  To my recollection, and I may be wrong, my parents did not have to appeal to any California state agency for this disaster relief.  

They also received immediate aid from FEMA to help them get a place to live so my father could continue to work ASAP while everyone was dealing with the disaster.  This all happened quite promptly, looking back, though I remember my father getting quite riled up about all the red tape FEMA had in place.

From the mission statement of FEMA:  “To ensure that as a nation we work together to build, sustain, and improve our capability to prepare for, protect against, respond to, recover from, and mitigate all hazards.”  

AS A NATION.  

Seems that in this particular and unprecedented crisis, the Federal government is absent until / unless a state appeals to the administration on an emotional level  to "earn" assistance; to wit:   

"I love Michigan, one of the reasons we are doing such a GREAT job for them during this horrible Pandemic."  (trump tweet 3/27/2020).  No "love" no "great job"?

This novel approach where the administration spends weeks dissing various governors until somehow they are begged or flattered enough to take positive action is awful because so much sickness and death is happening in the lag time.

It is their job to anticipate and to be aware of gaps that need attention AHEAD of when the states are in dire need.   

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by NuevoYorko

[basil67]

Where I live, we also rely on being packed like sardines on our public transport to commute.

At this point in time our public transport is also still running.  We need it to for people who *have* to work outside the house and for buying of essential items.   BUT we have closed so many non essential services, and have so many people are working from home that few need to use the transport and it's easy to create social distancing.  We're pretty much running ghost transport.

If there's too many people on NYC transport, the issue is insufficient lock down/compliance rather than the transport itself.

Who is still using NYC transport?  How crowded is it now?  

[Woggle]

Since this pandemic affects us on a national level then the federal government should be involved. It just amazes me how the government always has more than enough bombs and weapons for war but we don't have enough to get us through a pandemic that is already doing serious damage. Do these people hate the federal government that much that they would rather see a pandemic spiral out of control than let them take charge?

[nospam99]

https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/coronavirus-in-nyc-subway-cut-backs-leads-to-packed-commute/

Watch the vid. Looks pretty crowded to me. How many more people will die because they were exposed to the virus on crowded public transit in direct contradiction to the distancing guidelines? In contrast, how many fewer will die because of the alleged essential workers getting to work on public transit instead of by some other means? We will never know.

Most important however, couldn't Cuomo and Deblasio have come up with transportation resources to get the truly essential workers to work without public transit? That is something we could know if discussions about transportation options had taken place. Do we even know if those discussions did take place? What was the substance of those discussions? Is there documentation posted by the state and/or city government to substantiate the assertions from LS posters in this thread about the necessity of public transportation for essential workers? Without that documentation all I'm hearing is Democratic fan-boys and fan-girls yessing blue politicians.

Edited April 8, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[NuevoYorko]

23 minutes ago, basil67 said:

 

Who is still using NYC transport?  How crowded is it now?  

I lived there for years and have very close friends and family members there now.  We were there for 9/11.  Friends tell me that the streets are desolate and it's more shut down and eerie than following that tragedy. I've heard that  biggest problem area has been the parks where people have still been seen to congregate, especially on sunny days.  This is anecdotal - just what people I know are saying.  None of them have been on a subway train.  

It is the 10th largest city on the planet.  Public transport has been significantly cut.  "Essential" workers covers a lot of ground, and people should either get on a different car or wait for the next train but we are all creatures of habit.  I think this is why the trains are still crowded.

 

[basil67]

12 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

 Is there documentation posted by the state and/or city government to substantiate the assertions from LS posters in this thread about the necessity of public transportation for essential workers?

I would have thought it common sense.   Why do you think it would not be essential?

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by basil67

[schlumpy]

47 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Really?

Yes. Really.

Here's a story that illustrates how it is done but if you want to believe differently please feel free to do so.

https://news.yahoo.com/gov-walz-asks-trump-federal-121941378.html

 

[NuevoYorko]

13 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

Most important however, couldn't Cuomo and Deblasio have come up with transportation resources to get the truly essential workers to work without public transit? That is something we could know if discussions about transportation options had taken place. Do we even know if those discussions did take place? What was the substance of those discussions? Is there documentation posted by the state and/or city government to substantiate the assertions from LS posters in this thread about the necessity of public transportation for essential workers? Without that documentation all I'm hearing is Democratic fan-boys and fan-girls yessing blue politicians.

??? Now I think you're joking around.

Remember?  Back in February - just 2 months ago - this disease was supposedly a hoax and / or something that was going to disappear like a miracle.  I'm not sure when a new means of transportation for thousands of workers was supposed to be invented and instituted  at the same time that the mayor and governor are trying to deal with thousands of sick and dying people, not to mention the bodies of the dead.

Like I said,  New Yorkers don't typically have cars, you're not riding in Uber or taxis with the pandemic, the only people who regularly ride bikes in midtown are crazed delivery youths and yes, those who can get to work on foot are probably doing so.

But, I'd be very interested in your ideas about what kind of new system could and should have been put in place.

P..S.  Don't call my hometown a cesspool.   Loved ones of mine are trying to survive there.  Thanks.

 

[Ellener]

48 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

Loved ones of mine are trying to survive there. 

Thinking of you. It's a tense time.

 

[nospam99]

@basil. Then I have no common sense about public transportation being essential. Rather my common sense says don't crowd people into enclosed spaces when dealing with a highly contagious pathogen spread through the air.

I already listed three ways to get to work without public transportation: car, foot, and bicycle. There are also taxis, Ubers, and limousines which suffer from the same problems as public transit albeit with the advantage of smaller passenger loads. If the workers in question are truly essential and the private resources I listed are insufficient, call out the National Guard and other state and city agencies all of which have lots of vehicles and don't have to park and have those agencies drive the essential workers to their jobs.

[nospam99]

@ellener. I would think it clear from my OP why I started this thread. If there is any 'blood on the hands' of any public official in the US, it's on the hands of Cuomo and Deblasio for keeping public transit operating in NYC and thus exposing all passengers to the virus in crowded enclosed spaces.

People have been very fond of playing with the numbers during this epidemic. What do you suppose the correlation coefficient would be if every covid-19 patient in NYC was classified on the basis of whether or not they had ridden public transit in the month before they were diagnosed? I'm going to speculate with confidence 100%. And, yes, I know that correlation does not prove causality. But in this case there is even a causal mechanism because of the crowded enclosed spaces.

Even if, as several LS posters have argued, that public transportation is necessary even in this crisis, a deliberate decision was still made to put a higher priority on transporting workers relative to preventing infection.

[mrs rubble]

Our numbers here are looking really good, we have the best chance out of any country in the western world of beating this due to the swift hard actions of our Prime Minister, our public transport is still running but you need to prove you're on essential travel to get on a bus or train. Yesterday I saw 3 buses on my drive home from work, there was one person on each bus.

This morning on my way to work I saw a train pass with 4 carriages, only one person on that train.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

9 hours ago, lana-banana said:

 I don't know of any state that has closed liquor stores.

Only about 9 states even have liquor stores  anymore.

 

 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, nospam99 said:

@basil. Then I have no common sense about public transportation being essential. Rather my common sense says don't crowd people into enclosed spaces when dealing with a highly contagious pathogen spread through the air.

I already listed three ways to get to work without public transportation: car, foot, and bicycle. There are also taxis, Ubers, and limousines which suffer from the same problems as public transit albeit with the advantage of smaller passenger loads. If the workers in question are truly essential and the private resources I listed are insufficient, call out the National Guard and other state and city agencies all of which have lots of vehicles and don't have to park and have those agencies drive the essential workers to their jobs.

As I described earlier, and Mrs Rubble also reports, if you shut down enough non essential services and ask people to stay home, then public transport loses the crowds.  We are seeing this result here.  Do you not believe our reports?   Both of us live in places where the rate of infection is starting to plateau, so we must be doing something right. 

Saying that people should walk or cycle is ableist.  It's also completely lacking in understanding that it's not feasible for those who need to access motorways (cycles are prohibited) or need to travel on roads which are unsafe for cycles (main roads without divided cycle paths).  Or those who commute for an hour or two or who don't own a car.  You also forget that not all workplaces have showers.  Or, as in the case of my husband who does ride a pushbike to work, shower facilities were one of the first things to shut down.  (He switched to motorbike for a week and is now working from home) 

As far as calling the National Guard to transport essential workers, why would you do that when social and work restrictions lead to nearly empty trains and busses like what Mrs Rubble and I have?  I'd rather be one of three people in a train carriage (where I can use social distancing) than sharing a sedan in close proximity with a stranger. 

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by basil67