How to address the elephant in the room - is this PA, EA or both?

[Eris1234]

Okay so I know I’m being an idiot. Also this is my first affair and NEVER saw it coming. Looking for advice on how to talk about our affair without it being weird. I feel like there are so many things going unsaid. Fears, feelings, confusion. 
 

here’s the background: We are both married with young children. His marriage lacks intimacy/sex/connection (so he says) and mine is straight up toxic (emotionally and sometimes physically abusive). My H and I tried MC last year and it didn’t do a whole lot. My affair started early this year. What I thought was a ONS/drunken mistake, quickly turned into texting and talking on a regular basis. He admitted that he had feelings for me and he couldn’t explain it. That it scared him. We are long distance so it’s primarily over the phone, but we did meet up in March. It was very physical, but also romantic - he took me out, opened doors, held my hand. Immediately after that, things changed. The push pull I keep reading about. He became distant and short with his contact. It’s not that contact was cut off, but very much felt friend-zoned. It hurt. I decided to end it because my marriage is a mess and the stress of worrying about an A didn’t seem worth it to me....I went 2 weeks NC and then you know what happens...so we are back “on” I guess.

While our conversations have gotten hot and heavy, I feel like we are both actively avoiding talking about how we feel, what we want, etc. I know I’m afraid to talk about my feelings because that would mean I’m acknowledging them. Yikes, no thanks. He’s brought up divorces on our last two conversations...a few of his close friends are going through them & he talked about how quarantine will bring on babies and divorce. Then he asks how my M is going? I have no idea where his head is and I feel like we need to get on the same page but I don’t know how to do that.

He’s never said he wouldn’t leave his wife, but we’ve talked about how scary it is and wanting to keep our families together for the kids. 
 

At this point I’m wondering if he still has feelings for me or if this has become just physical? I’m not in love with him, but I definitely have strong feelings.

side note, I did ask my husband for a divorce but he won’t sign and refuses to talk about it.

 

if you made it this far through my rambling, thank you!

[elaine567]

22 minutes ago, Eris1234 said:

and mine is straight up toxic (emotionally and sometimes physically abusive).

If so, are you not worried for your personal safety?
I am always amazed at how many women claim physical abuse yet are cheating... why?
Women can get killed by abusive partners, why chance it?
Or are you under the illusion he will never find out?

BTW the minute the affair went "physical" it became a PA.

[Eris1234]

I’m not terribly concerned about my safety, but of course I have thought about it. H has never full out hit me, but it’s more a control or throwing things. I also don’t think it’s impossible for him to find out. But unless mm has told anyone, I don’t think anyone knows. I’m every cliché over here: never thought I would cheat, he pursued me, it just happened etc etc

i did attempt to end this but clearly blew it with that. 

[Allupinnit]

Regardless of what's going on in his head you need to leave your abuser.  Emotional abuse will rot you from the inside out and leave your self-esteem in the toilet.  And as for physical abuse - I mean that goes without saying.  

[Eris1234]

@Allupinnit I completely agree. Anyone that has been in my position knows the cycle. I’m ready to leave but it is scary. Makes me think my affair is subconsciously an exit affair. 
 

I know I’m a broken woman, but trying to put myself back together. MM reminded me that I am smart, strong, capable, beautiful. So it doesn’t surprise me that I’ve given in to the addiction of it.

with my M I just don’t see how I can put it back together. But right now he won’t let me go. I’m trying to get through quarantine and then make a plan.

[ExpatInItaly]

How did you meet this married man, OP? 

Whether or not he has feelings is rather irrelevant if he's already told you he intends to stay married for his kids. But let's suppose for a moment that he does have feelings for you - what would that change about your current situation?

What did you say when he asked how your marriage is going?

 

 

[Eris1234]

Thank you - this is exactly what I need to consider. Because really, how does that change anything? It really doesn’t, other than me feeling more in control if I know where we stand. I guess I feel the need to know what I’m *allowed* to feel/do. If he doesn’t have feelings then I should sort through that and decide if it’s worth it to continue.

We have been more or less in the same social circle since high school but reconnected. More knew of each other until now. We know each other’s close friends and some family. I think our mutual friends would be completely shocked if they knew.

ETA: he knows that my marriage is not doing well. At first he was supportive of me trying to work things out, but the more I disclosed then he supported me getting out. He gets mad knowing how my H treats me.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Eris1234
Answer question

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, Eris1234 said:

with my M I just don’t see how I can put it back together. But right now he won’t let me go. I’m trying to get through quarantine and then make a plan.

The right move IMO, except consider making the plan now (in your head) and executing it once COVID clears. Suggest you leave the MM out of your plan since you at least potentially need it to work with or without him (and most likely it will be without). Suggest you let him sort his own marriage out.

[elaine567]

Too many MW will leave unhappy marriages for their MM, some going as far as actual divorce, only to find despite declarations of love everlasting he just can't leave... YET
Out come all the excuses, the struggling  child, the sick dog, the ailing mother in law, the mentally ill wife,...
Not a good time to sell the house, change jobs, leave the kids... please wait... you know I love you...
Then there is the expensive holiday that is bought and paid for that he has to go on, the kid's special birthday party, Christmas/NYE, Valentines Day, Easter, another trip abroad, another kids special birthday, Christmas/NYE again...
Give him 6 mths and he will definitely leave... he just needs to get things sorted out...
Meanwhile the divorced OW sticks around, she loves this man, it was all so close to being perfect, too close to give up now...

Truth is many MM are not in affairs to find a replacement wife.
A MW is perfect for his purposes, she is going nowhere, he is going nowhere. 
She has as much to lose as he does so the secret is safe.. and then she goes and spoils it by getting a divorce...
She is a loose cannon. 
He is then put under pressure to "make it real", something he never wanted to do, hence the never-ending excuses... 

[BaileyB]

Another who is very concerned about your safety. 
Affairs are rarely the answer to anything, but they are most definitely not the answer to an abusive marriage. 
Whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not, your safety is at risk if you stay with this man. He may not have physically assaulted you yet, but the warning signs are there. And, these things tend to escalate over time. If you are ever discovered, the risk to your safety will be considerably heightened.

I would respectfully suggest that rather than spending your time trying to assess the feelings of your affair partner and the future of this affair, your time would be better spent evaluating the decisions you have made in your life related to your choice of romantic partner(s), and creating an exit plan for your marriage. If you can seek the support of a counsellor or a woman’s shelter, I would suggest that you do that.

BTW, your husband doesn’t have to talk about, give his consent, visit a lawyer, or even agree with your decision to divorce. You can visit your own lawyer, file your own papers, pack your belongings, and leave a note on the kitchen table when you leave... To say that you can’t divorce because he won’t talk about it with you is an excuse, to stay right where you are which is a precarious and dangerous position at the moment...

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by BaileyB

[2BGoodAgain]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Too many MW will leave unhappy marriages for their MM, some going as far as actual divorce, only to find despite declarations of love everlasting he just can't leave... YET
Out come all the excuses, the struggling  child, the sick dog, the ailing mother in law, the mentally ill wife,...
Not a good time to sell the house, change jobs, leave the kids... please wait... you know I love you...
Then there is the expensive holiday that is bought and paid for that he has to go on, the kid's special birthday party, Christmas/NYE, Valentines Day, Easter, another trip abroad, another kids special birthday, Christmas/NYE again...
Give him 6 mths and he will definitely leave... he just needs to get things sorted out...
Meanwhile the divorced OW sticks around, she loves this man, it was all so close to being perfect, too close to give up now...

Truth is many MM are not in affairs to find a replacement wife.
A MW is perfect for his purposes, she is going nowhere, he is going nowhere. 
She has as much to lose as he does so the secret is safe.. and then she goes and spoils it by getting a divorce...
She is a loose cannon. 
He is then put under pressure to "make it real", something he never wanted to do, hence the never-ending excuses... 

very true.

but some MM don't realize this, at the time... as odd as that may sound. They fall for their own self-deceit, and believe what delusions they've set up for themselves. It isn't until reality actually sinks in... they realize they never really wanted to leave their relationship, no matter what ills they may claim it has...

also... i'm sure there are a few rare who do want to leave it.. but like anything else, unless the MM is ready to leave, no outside force will change the status quo.

[Allupinnit]

@elaine567 - that's exactly right - basically making excuses to just keep living their lives as married men do.  I really don't understand it.  I would feel like such a POS knowing that I was hurting two people like that, for YEARS... for my own selfish reasons.  

[Eris1234]

I so appreciate the responses and especially the concern for my safety. I don’t have anyone to talk to about this, so thank you for hanging with me while I just get some of my thoughts out, too.

I’m 42 and I have been married for 10 years, together 15. I genuinely don’t think he would do anything crazy, but it’s definitely not lost on me that a DDay type of situation could blow it up. as far as divorcing my husband, it’s something we have talked about well before MM was in the picture. I’m not in love with MM, but I do love the excitement. However, I would end things with him if I become single or if it got too emotional. I’m not terribly concerned about being alone or dating in the future. I’m not an ugly woman 😬...if anything I know this is an issue for me. I am a very sexual person and I enjoy attention and validation from men. I hate to admit, that I use it to my benefit. I always have. Clearly I could use therapy 🤦‍♀️ 
 

and just to reiterate, I know I need to stop and this is stupid. I’m in too deep and that’s my own fault.
 

 

[Poppy47]

10 hours ago, Eris1234 said:

I’m not terribly concerned about my safety, but of course I have thought about it. H has never full out hit me, but it’s more a control or throwing things. I also don’t think it’s impossible for him to find out. But unless mm has told anyone, I don’t think anyone knows. I’m every cliché over here: never thought I would cheat, he pursued me, it just happened etc etc

i did attempt to end this but clearly blew it with that. 

If he is violent enough to throw things, there's always a first time for him to throw you around. Once he does, he will have stepped over a ling and can never go back.  You have no idea who knows..... it could be anybody.

Just be careful of you safety.

Poppy.

 

[BaileyB]

10 hours ago, Eris1234 said:

I genuinely don’t think he would do anything crazy, but it’s definitely not lost on me that a DDay type of situation could blow it up. 

It would be like throwing gasoline onto an already smouldering fire... 

Men do not generally appreciate it when their wives have sex with other men. And, the most dangerous time for a woman is when she attempts to leave an abusive relationship. You have NO IDEA what he would do if you were discovered, or if you tried to leave the marriage... 

I get the sense that you like drama - you certainly have drama in your marriage and now you are in enjoying the excitement and drama of the affair. The thing is, these two decisions are self destructive - they both put you in an unsafe position (emotionally and physically). 

[stillafool]

OP, you don't need your husband's consent to get a divorce.  

[Eris1234]

I think liking drama and finding yourself in a dramatic situation are completely different things. I’ve been faithful for 15 years, I’m a PTA member, school board member, corporate work type. Not much drama until recently.

yes my marriage is toxic and I know I need to leave. It’s not that easy. It’s been on my mind for years. And I’m not making excuses not to leave, I’m trying to plan my exit thoughtfully.

regarding my affair, yes I am enjoying it. It’s hot and I’d bet there are plenty of others in this forum that understand THAT

 

[DKT3]

14 hours ago, Eris1234 said:

I so appreciate the responses and especially the concern for my safety. I don’t have anyone to talk to about this, so thank you for hanging with me while I just get some of my thoughts out, too.

I’m 42 and I have been married for 10 years, together 15. I genuinely don’t think he would do anything crazy, but it’s definitely not lost on me that a DDay type of situation could blow it up. as far as divorcing my husband, it’s something we have talked about well before MM was in the picture. I’m not in love with MM, but I do love the excitement. However, I would end things with him if I become single or if it got too emotional. I’m not terribly concerned about being alone or dating in the future. I’m not an ugly woman 😬...if anything I know this is an issue for me. I am a very sexual person and I enjoy attention and validation from men. I hate to admit, that I use it to my benefit. I always have. Clearly I could use therapy 🤦‍♀️ 
 

and just to reiterate, I know I need to stop and this is stupid. I’m in too deep and that’s my own fault.
 

 

With you having said this, what kind of marriage can you expect to have? Why are you complaining about your husband being controlling,  if he actually is? I say that because its common for women who behave the way you describe (seeking out male validation) to see thier husband protesting to the behavior (poor behavior,  not becoming for a married mother) as control. 

In cases like your, I suspect you will ruin your marriage completely and then spend a large portion of your remaining life regretting having done so.

[stillafool]

37 minutes ago, Eris1234 said:

And I’m not making excuses not to leave, I’m trying to plan my exit thoughtfully.

Excuse. By having an affair?

On 4/7/2020 at 12:18 PM, Eris1234 said:

I did ask my husband for a divorce but he won’t sign and refuses to talk about it.

Excuse.

23 hours ago, Eris1234 said:

I’m ready to leave but it is scary.

Excuse

23 hours ago, Eris1234 said:

with my M I just don’t see how I can put it back together. But right now he won’t let me go.

Excuse.

You say things like your husband refuses to give you a divorce and he won't let you go.  You are not in prison you can go whenever you want to and you don't need your husband's permisson or approval to file for divorce.  You say MM doesn't like the way your husband treats you but what about the way you are treating your husband by having this affair?  I'm sure that isn't helping your marriage either.

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by stillafool

[ExpatInItaly]

15 hours ago, Eris1234 said:

I am a very sexual person and I enjoy attention and validation from men. I hate to admit, that I use it to my benefit. I always have. Clearly I could use therapy 🤦‍♀️ 

Has caused problems in your marriage before?

[Robert2016]

I’ve been faithful for 15 years, I’m a PTA member, school board member, corporate work type. Not much drama until recently.

I'm not trying to trash you but I am trying to wake you up to your reality (to motivate you).

The OM is nothing special (in fact he's a cheater) and you don't really know him. He's just good enough for you to build a fantasy around him - so he can fill some emotional need.

And he's built a fantasy around you too (he doesn't really know you).  You're both just using each other and living in a fantasy - but affairs always have consequences.

Based on the above quote, I believe you are proud of yourself as a person, parent, and spouse.   

Here's my view of you:

1 - don't call it a drunken mistake unless you're 16yo.  Don't lie to yourself. Even when drunk you knew better and did it because you wanted to (the OM just came along at the right time).

2 - your affair is not a good role model for your kids.

3 - tolerating an abusive husband is not a good role model for your kids (e.g., do you want your kids to think its ok?).

4 - studies show that kids feel that you're not just cheating on the spouse (but the whole family). 

Finally,  the OM's wife is likely going through hell.  She's wondering why he's distance, impatient, arguing & criticizing her all the time. She's wondering why nothing she does is good enough or why counseling doesn't help their marriage.  Like most victims of infidelity, she most likely blames herself!  

You didn't intend for this but a good portion of the OM's behavior toward his wife is because you have allowed yourself to be inserted into their marriage - and he's now comparing her to his fantasy view of you.  You didn't intend this but you're also participating in what will ultimately injure his kids.  

Participating in the destruction of a family, a wife, and kids should make the woman in the above quote vomit.

There's nothing you can do to change the past - but you can change what you do today and tomorrow.

 

 

[pepperbird]

op,

This is going to sound harsh at first, but I hope that if you read this to the end, you'll understand.
I would stop wasting any mental energy on this guy. He doesn't matter. What matters is you and your children. Has/is being in an affair with this guy been the proverbial crutch you need to stay in. relationship you describe as involving violent outbursts.
How about you transfer that energy to getting out of your marriage. it's not good for you or your kids.

[Eris1234]

Thank you, pepper bird. I agree with you.

 

i was honestly hoping to get things off my chest and talk through my thoughts. This is the other man/other woman forum, right??? Surely I’m not the first. But it seems my character is being judged...not surprised. I get it. But I also don’t spend time in online forums either. So I think this is not the right place for me.

i appreciate those of you that offered tough love, concern and sound advice.
 

I’m human and humans aren’t perfect. That means you, too. 
 

if you’re here to bash me as the OW - I’m sorry it upset you. 
 

peace.

[DKT3]

Any time one is looking to improve a situation,  you must first recognize and understand your role in that situation.  Here in the OW section that is more clear then any other. 

No, none of us are perfect,  we all mess up.  Ultimately it does us no good to blame others for our actions. Again,  that's never more clear then in this section. 

No one is judging your character,  we are calling you out for your actions and not being aware of how your actions are the problem.  

Get to the bottom of why you need validation from strangers and random men and your marriage and this affair will most likely work itself out one way or the other. 

You will never get more out then you put in.

[BaileyB]

Indeed, I’m sorry if you feel that people are judging your character.

But, as Dr. Phil so wisely 😜 likes to say - you can’t fix a problem if you don’t acknowledge it.

Obviously, the advice that was offered was not what you want to hear. But, we would be doing you a huge disservice if we didn’t point out the obvious - the things that you refuse to acknowledge, even to yourself. You may have been preparing to leave your marriage for years, but the time to divorce for your own safety and the safety and well-being of your children is now. This is the most pressing problem in your life right now, something that needs your immediate attention. Your affair, as fun as it may be for you in the moment, is not a wise decision for long term happiness and has the potential to negatively affect the safety and well-being of your children. 

Best wishes to you. I sincerely hope that you consider the concerns that have been shared in this discussion as you make decisions for yourself and your children in the future.

Edited April 8, 2020 by BaileyB