Insecure women get great guys. Confident women get the clingers?

[NomiMalone]

10 hours ago, Woggle said:

Who wants to be with somebody who makes a point of telling you how not needed you are? Nobody should need another person to survive but somebody who constantly feels the need to drive that point home must have some hostility towards the opposite sex and who needs that in their life?

Agree! I think the women who make it a point to mention how they don’t need a man are the ones who are single and are insecure about it. 

[amaysngrace]

Who goes around saying they don’t need a man?  

Do women who would like to be in a good relationship really say that?  

I would love to be in a great relationship.  Do I need to be?  No, of course not.  But would I love to be?  Absolutely.  

The difference is strong women don’t need to settle, there’s really not much more to it than that.

[Foxhall]

Hopeful 30, 

I am curious perhaps as to what you mean by "lesser men"-

are you basing this on them merely not being the loudest guy in the room or the guy will not get instant gratification from your friends circle,

the couples you are observing- the women are clearly looking beyond the surface, they obviously see something in their guy which makes him a good catch or whatever, there is clearly more depth to these guys if you took the time to get to know them.

 

 

[Foxhall]

11 hours ago, alphamale said:

foxhall i can assure you that it is not

ok thanks for clarifying Alpha😉

[elaine567]

37 minutes ago, Foxhall said:

I am curious perhaps as to what you mean by "lesser men"-

HF30  never mentioned "lesser men"

19 hours ago, Hopeful30 said:

I'm surprised to see quality men enter relationships with women who are 'lesser than' (for lack of a better word). By this I mean women who don't bring the same quality into the relationship (ie: man is financially and morally supportive, woman is demanding, spends his money and is emotionally draining/insecure). 

[Blind-Sided]

46 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Who goes around saying they don’t need a man?  

Do women who would like to be in a good relationship really say that?  

I've know several women who have been that way.  Most of them were older... but there was at least 2 who were younger.  One of the older women was the exW mother. She was just a mean, cranky lady.  After her husband died, I heard that exact phrase out of her mouth.  She had a few gentlemen who tried to be her partner again, and she would blow it. Now that she is pushing 90... she is worried she will die alone. (She also alienated several of her kids)  One of the younger women may have been gay... but not sure.  But I do know, she had such an off putting personality because if her independent "Roar"... I've lost track of her. (Who wants to be around that negativity?)

[chillii]

1 hour ago, amaysngrace said:

Who goes around saying they don’t need a man?  

Do women who would like to be in a good relationship really say that?  

I would love to be in a great relationship.  Do I need to be?  No, of course not.  But would I love to be?  Absolutely.  

The difference is strong women don’t need to settle, there’s really not much more to it than that.

 

A lot of women go round saying that actually, you've basically just said it yourself really , a lot even around ls say it..But finding a good relationship usually doesn't have much to do with settling either , some people can find them and sense the right situation out , and some just can't , or they do find someone but he isn't interested and yes of course that goes vise versa too. l've also noticed it's quite common for really successful women to just lack in other ways like actually being any good at relationships or having those senses too that just come easily to others. l often see the words skillset used round here about guys , which actually makes me sick tbh , a term like that belongs on a job app, not in love. But , that also goes vise verse and often the case with some women too, and it's usually pretty easy to spot

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by chillii

[Emilie Jolie]

2 hours ago, chillii said:

Not saying it's a given but it is common

Your previous post said 'a lot of them have chips on their shoulders', and have a 'hardness' in them. That's why I was confused by your attitude towards 'strong and independent women' and their lack of vulnerability or femininity.

 

[Emilie Jolie]

1 hour ago, amaysngrace said:

Do I need to be?  No, of course not

There is literally nothing more 'needy' than needing to be in a relationship. Someone who can't handle being single is a major turn-off. You want to be with a guy who wants to be with you as much you want to be with him, that's the dream ticket.

[Malin889]

2 hours ago, amaysngrace said:

Who goes around saying they don’t need a man?  

Do women who would like to be in a good relationship really say that?  

I would love to be in a great relationship.  Do I need to be?  No, of course not.  But would I love to be?  Absolutely.  

The difference is strong women don’t need to settle, there’s really not much more to it than that.

Agree! I am independent, have my own career, house, life. I don’t need a man but I want a man... it would be great to have someone to do things with, to share life with, or be quarantined with. (Or maybe it wouldn’t lol). But I don’t want just anyone, i just don’t want someone for the sake of having someone, I don’t want a “clinger” as the title of the post says. I want the right match, the right person. Someone who I fit perfectly with. Someone who has their own life. I refuse to settle. I think I deserve the best and I’m not going to settle for less. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Malin889

[OatsAndHall]

This could be a matter of perception.

A guy could come across as being "great" because he does his best to assuage an insecure girlfriend. In reality, he might love having a clingy, insecure gf because it either a) gives him a sense of control and/or b) he enjoys having a "project.  As such, they might not be so "great"; they're actually closet control freaks who enjoy being the dominant partner.

A strong woman might view a guy as needy as they're extremely independent and that guy is looking for more than the woman is willing to give, at least at the time. The man in the equation isn't necessarily insecure or clingy; they just want a different type of relationship. I've met very few women who enjoy being the dominant partner; they want what they perceive as an equal.

I know that I have been the man in the second instance I described on several occasions. I'm attracted to strong, independent women but I rarely found one that seemed emotionally available. We'd hit it off, "sparks would fly", and we'd have a great time together. But, in the end, they either had some serious walls up and/or anything that vaguely "threatened" that independence was an issue. It was either date for months at arm's length (wondering if I was coming across as "clingy") or just call it off.

Edited April 11, 2020 by OatsAndHall

[Gr8fuln2020]

7 minutes ago, OatsAndHall said:

This could be a matter of perception.

A guy could come across as being "great" because he does his best to assuage an insecure girlfriend. In reality, he might love having a clingy, insecure gf because it either a) gives him a sense of control and/or b) he enjoys having a "project.  As such, they might not be so "great"; they're actually closet control freaks who enjoy being the dominant partner.

A strong woman might view a guy as needy as they're extremely independent and that guy is looking for more than the woman is willing to give, at least at the time. The man in the equation isn't necessarily insecure or clingy; they just want a different type of relationship. I've met very few women who enjoy being the dominant partner; they want what they perceive as an equal.

I know that I have been the man in the second instance I described on several occasions. I'm attracted to strong, independent women but I rarely found one that seemed emotionally available. We'd hit it off, "sparks would fly", and we'd have a great time together. But, in the end, they either had some serious walls up and/or anything that vaguely "threatened" that independence was an issue. It was either date for months at arm's length (wondering if I was coming across as "clingy") or just call it off.

Your observations are absolutely legit and just a few more dynamics involved in relationships. I have been involved with doctors, lawyers, executives and initially, they seem fiercely independent, but I have found, so far that these independent women are normally hiding an insecurity that eventually reveals itself and they become the clinger, or the dysfunctional party.

I feel that in the OP's observations, it very well be that what he is 'seeing' is not what it appears. After time, people can change from putting up a facade of independence to something else entirely. Especially in the not so short term and after some emotional investment has been made. In my experience, I rarely find both of a couple equally independent and confident.

[alphamale]

1 hour ago, Malin889 said:

 I want the right match, the right person. Someone who I fit perfectly with. Someone who has their own life. I refuse to settle. I think I deserve the best and I’m not going to settle for less. 

good luck with that sister 

[Emilie Jolie]

22 minutes ago, OatsAndHall said:

But, in the end, they either had some serious walls up and/or anything that vaguely "threatened" that independence was an issue. It was either date for months at arm's length (wondering if I was coming across as "clingy") or just call it off

Yeah, I put my hand up for this kind of behaviour. FWIW, I never thought my exes were 'clingy' (except for one of them), I always knew the problem came from me not wanting to give up hard earned independence. I'm lucky my SO stuck it out, but I've honestly not met many men as secure and independent as he is, especially a divorced guy. We have what I think is a well-balanced RL now, but it has taken a fair few 'give and takes' on both parts. We're quite compatible in most other ways and genuinely attached to each other, which obviously helps.

[elaine567]

15 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

I have been involved with doctors, lawyers, executives and initially, they seem fiercely independent, but I have found, so far that these independent women are normally hiding an insecurity that eventually reveals itself and they become the clinger, or the dysfunctional party.

But the common denominator is you...

[Gr8fuln2020]

25 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

But the common denominator is you...

True. Oh, so true...whenever any of our relationships fail, we are ALL (always) the common denominator, right?

I look back at each of them and can tell you that there was much more going on in their lives. I am the common denominator, yup. I don't tolerate dysfunction and I don't allow people to remain in my life who are unable to shake their dysfunctions. I have learned the hard way to be decisive about what I will tolerate and for how long...it took me ONE such experience and that was enough.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020

[Woggle]

4 hours ago, amaysngrace said:

Who goes around saying they don’t need a man?  

Do women who would like to be in a good relationship really say that?  

I would love to be in a great relationship.  Do I need to be?  No, of course not.  But would I love to be?  Absolutely.  

The difference is strong women don’t need to settle, there’s really not much more to it than that.

Plenty. I am sure you know the saying that says A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Anybody should be able to stand on their own but most women who have that mentality also have some level of hostility towards men and trying to make a relationship work with somebody like is nearly impossible. A man has to do constant backflips and walk on eggshells in order to prove he isn't trying to steal her independence and it just isn't worth it. 

[elaine567]

4 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

I don't tolerate dysfunction and I don't allow people to remain in my life who are unable to shake their dysfunctions. I have learned the hard way to be decisive.

I get that but is it not a bit of a coincidence and strange that they all ended up "insecure" and "dysfunctional" after spending time with you?
Have you looked carefully at how you treated these women?

[Malin889]

14 hours ago, FMW said:

Well, I don't know about playing dumb or coy Alpha, but I'm learning to accept offers to do things for me!

Yes, I need to learn to accept offers as well. Sometimes I feel like guys think I'm too independent. I've done things on my own for so long that I don't always know how to rely on a guy. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Malin889

[Malin889]

55 minutes ago, alphamale said:

good luck with that sister 

Thanks! (Even though I know you were being sarcastic). Do you really think I should settle for less?!  

[carhill]

IMO if you like men and like sex you'll do fine; I learned a lot about this from my exW who, even though she was overweight and not super-attractive, as well as owning her own business and having her own employees and life and was financially independent, always did well with men, never lacked male company. The downside, as the husband du jour, was she knew that and knew she could easily change men as desired so did that. Probably not a downside for her, IDK, but marrying and divorcing men gets tedious after awhile, to me anyway. Maybe it's a process, and will be for you too. The guy she's with now, who she moved in while we were divorcing, maybe will be the last since they're in their 60's. All it takes is a confluence of where one is in their life and the right fit with another person at the right time.

I wouldn't settle. Stay strong, but humble and fair, in your mating perspective. The right confluence of person, place and time will come. The more 'out there', meaning more social, the more opportunities for that to occur. Difficult right now, sure, but this will pass. Good luck!

[OatsAndHall]

32 minutes ago, Woggle said:

Plenty. I am sure you know the saying that says A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Anybody should be able to stand on their own but most women who have that mentality also have some level of hostility towards men and trying to make a relationship work with somebody like is nearly impossible. A man has to do constant backflips and walk on eggshells in order to prove he isn't trying to steal her independence and it just isn't worth it. 

I agree whole-heartedly and it goes for both sexes. I dated a woman briefly who made several random, unwarranted comments along the lines of "I love being with you but I don't need anyone". After about the third time this came up, I told her that I appreciated that she enjoyed being with me, that I respected her independence but that I didn't need to be reminded of it.  I told her that I felt like she was using that statement as a warning to keep my distance which I didn't appreciate. Needless to say, we didn't last long after that. Funny enough, I was the one that called it off and she was upset. I left things on a positive note but I really wanted to say "Well, you've stated you don't need anyone so I don't understand why us not seeing each other is an issue."

[Malin889]

54 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I get that but is it not a bit of a coincidence and strange that they all ended up "insecure" and "dysfunctional" after spending time with you?
Have you looked carefully at how you treated these women?

That's very true! I knew someone who had a few "dramatic" women in his life... but I only ever heard his side of the story because he was in my life, and I didn't know those women. But I always wondered and still do today what their side of the story would have been, you know? 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Malin889

[Woggle]

I agree that it goes for both sexes. No woman in her right mind wants a man who always talks MGTOW rhetoric so why should want the woman version of that?

[d0nnivain]

6 hours ago, NomiMalone said:

I think the women who make it a point to mention how they don’t need a man are the ones who are single and are insecure about it. 

Everybody has insecurities.  I never needed a man when I was single but I wanted somebody to share my life with & I wasn't willing to settle.  

Not settling involves not compromising your core values but flexibility is involved.  You can't have a check list about everything.  You need to focus on values not superficial stuff. I wanted a hard working person of integrity with a wicked sense of humor who I was attracted to.   I love my husband but there are areas of incompatibility -- I love the beach, he hates it; we are not of the same political party; I'm more religious than him; we had vastly different levels of education when we started: he only had a HS diploma while I had a post graduate degree.  None of that was worth blowing apart the relationship.  I always appreciated his industriousness.  that hard work turned into huge successes during our marriage.  He helped me to learn to be silent.  

One of my friends from graduate school was alone & miserable.  However she wanted a man of a specific height & weight, with only certain kinds of jobs & a 7 figure bank account.  Until she let go of those ridiculous requirements, she was alone.  She has finally found love with a blue collar out of shape guy who treats her like gold.  10 years ago she would not have given him the time of day.  But he has helped her identify much of the disfunction in her life.