Insecure women get great guys. Confident women get the clingers?

[SumGuy]

12 hours ago, lonelyplanetmoon said:

Q to the men.  Would you be offended if a woman you were dating said this?

‘I don’t need a man but I want a man. I don’t want just any man. I want you and only you”

Heck no!  That would make my day.

[poppyfields]

12 hours ago, lonelyplanetmoon said:

Q to the men.  Would you be offended if a woman you were dating said this?

‘I don’t need a man but I want a man. I don’t want just any man. I want you and only you”

 

 

I think you hit it lonelyplanet, at least for me.

>>"I don't need just "any" man, but I need YOU because I love you, you enhance my life, you give meaning to my life and having you in my life makes me incredibly happy." <<

There is a big difference between needing "a" man in the general sense, and needing one particular man, your significant other, for reasons mentioned. 

And if that particular man went away, you'd be perfectly fine on your own too.  

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[SumGuy]

 

15 hours ago, an0nym0us123 said:

Overly needy is not attractive at all, no one wants to be hassled or sent "why are you not replying to my message" type texts.

It's all a matter of context and personal preference, and ones love language.   See plenty of male posters wondering why she is not replying...and ignoring communication from your romantic partner is generally not considered OK...now if your romantic partner is texting you too much, that is where communication about the frequency comes in.  It's also a love language thing, for some words, text are a big deal...others touch...others acts of service...others touch, etc. 

 I was never big on text until had a girlfriend where words were a big part of her love language...it wasn't really a hard transition to make especially after we talked about it, my fears and practicalities and what she valued and really wanted.  I learned to like it when I got out of the mindset of it as a burden and as something fun to do when I could.  Really came down to for us putting myself in her shoes, and her in mine, see and accept each other for who we are and find common ground.

15 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

It’s OK to like clingers and needy people. I mean they need love too and I’m sure some people are into that. . Personally, I can’t stand it and guys who need constant validation and contact from me via text etc are a big nope for me. 

The flip side, to the person who likes regular contact in a relationship (not just a FWB thing) the person who seems to never want it is emotionally unavailable.  It is certainly a matter of degree and preference.  

I'm surprised you have a hard time finding men who are ambivalent about contact.  It is pretty common to hear guys say a woman wants too much interaction, that she wants to hear from them everyday.  They would much rather keep communication to just setting up the next date.  To them any communication above the bare minimum that they initiate or desire (via the other person reading their mind) is clingy.  So wonder if they contact you a lot because they think that is required.   I'd think that you could just be up front about how you don't need to hear from them and they shouldn't expect the same between dates besides setting up the next date.

However, when one typically drills down to it these guys just want someone to have a good time with, which really means sex wrapped in an outing (e.g. dancing, concert, dinner, etc.).   Ms. good enough for now.  They don't want to provide anything not directly related to that, which means any kind of support or really getting to know you (not just the good times you, they certainly don't want to hear about any difficulties or problems you may have in life, i.e., they don't want to be your friend as well as lover).  Of course these same guys often want the women to show emotional support for them, so that could be an issue or the issue.

Or it could be these guys are just falling in love with you, can't get enough of you and want a friend as well as lover.

[simpycurious]

31 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I think you hit it lonelyplanet, at least for me.

>>"I don't need just "any" man, but I need YOU because I love you, you enhance my life, you give meaning to my life and having you in my life makes me incredibly happy." <<

There is a big difference between needing "a" man in the general sense, and needing one particular man, your significant other, for reasons mentioned. 

And if that particular man went away, you'd be perfectly fine on your own too.  

 

The RIGHT PERSON makes all the difference in the world.  All these terms (gaslight, clinger, etc) would be NON Existent (IMO) with the RIGHT PERSON.  Yes, this is a romantic comment but there's nothing wrong with genuine romance.

[Woggle]

Maybe needed is a bad word but to have a successful relationship both people should be valued. If you don't value and treasure your mate who are you even with them? Why commit to something where you have one foot out the door and can take or leave it?

[preraph]

20 hours ago, mark clemson said:

So, some men, even "great guys who could have any woman they wanted" (never true, BTW) may deliberately select slightly more insecure women. They may believe (or unconsciously sense) that it gives them an edge in actually keeping their LT mate around for the LT.

 

I think some guys like to feel superior to their woman at all costs and this affects their picking.  

[preraph]

14 hours ago, Woggle said:

Not really but again I have never heard of anybody telling their friends they don't need them. You can survive without but they are valued in your life. If you are in a committed relationship with somebody they should be valued in your life. I don't technically need my wife but I would never just blurt that out to her.

That's now how it happened.  I was in love with this guy and he was bemoaning that I don't "need" him, which I'd never heard of before.  I mean, I have a job and we're in the same type career and all, so I just don't get it.  I mean, I didn't have much money at all, so just not sure what he was getting at.  But he brought it up.  And I said, I may not need you, but I want you.  Isn't that better?  

 

I mean, it's not like he had declared his love for me.  Or maybe once and then took it back.  So it's not like I blurted it out.  He just had a weird need and wanted to feel like some woman's hero.  I worked with him later for a long time and he was always getting manipulated by bad women because of this.  If they'd cry and act needy, he'd think they were sincere.  Nope.  That's stupid.  And he's still like that decades later, according to his wife who has not been able to get him to eject the little sociopath who pretty much lied me out of a job 30 years ago.  Because she tears up and flatters him while asking for favors and money.

 

I'm from a generation who saw my mom having to be dependent on my dad and leading at times a very boring and repetitive lifestyle.  Women were trapped to remain in marriage within my lifetime.  So please realize that it was always a priority of mine not to "need" a man.  My first priority is taking care of myself, and I have loved men at my leisure, and always, always been very glad at the end of each relationship that I stood on my own two feet.  

Edited April 14, 2020 by preraph

[SumGuy]

Modified for current context

...And all I can do is keep on telling you
I want you, I love you
But-there ain't no way I'm ever gonna need you
Now don't be sad
'Cause two out of three ain't bad...

Meatloaf, it's whats for dinner.

[mark clemson]

17 minutes ago, preraph said:

I think some guys like to feel superior to their woman at all costs and this affects their picking.  

That wasn't what I was getting at, but no doubt there's some of that out there too. Probably for some subset of women as well.

[Woggle]

I don't feel the need to feel superior to anybody but if a woman expects me to commit to her need the same level of commitment. Having a one foot out the door mentality does not make for a good relationship. Believe me I have never been one to fall for fake tears. My wife is a woman that can more than stand on her own but she also has the traits that make for a happy and lasting marriage. That balance can be achieved but some women think they have to choose between stepford wife and super independent woman.

[Cookiesandough]

Well, for a lot of women, including myself, being independent is not any more of a choice than being needy. I can pretend to be needy, but the truth is I don't need. I can't make myself. I also have no problem finding interested dudes being this way though

Edited April 14, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[preraph]

Woggle, I'm mystified why, if your marriage is so happy, this remains such an issue for you.  I realize you've had a really bad experience, but from what you've written, I just do not see it applying to very many women at all who would fall into that category.  

[simpycurious]

14 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Well, for a lot of women, including myself, being independent is not any more of a choice than being needy. I can pretend to be needy, but the truth is I don't need. I can't make myself. I also have no problem finding interested dudes being this way though

Be who you are and I assure you SOMEONE will love/adore etc you for WHO YOU ARE.  I am quite sure you have a problem with TOO many dudes as opposed to not enough.

Funny how that works.  

[poppyfields]

45 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Well, for a lot of women, including myself, being independent is not any more of a choice than being needy. I can pretend to be needy, but the truth is I don't need. I can't make myself. I also have no problem finding interested dudes being this way though

cookie, I'm the same.  And sadly have had some guys become real threatened by that which reflected in their actions and words.

And when that happens, for me it was a big NEXT.

Jmo, but guys who feel threatened by a woman's independence and prefer a more needy woman, are needy themselves, insecure, and have a tendency to be controlling.

They'd rather a woman be needy so they don't have to confront their own needy behaviour, and to make them feel more superior.

Story of my life pretty much - meeting men who try to control me. Ugh. 

Not gonna work with me.   That's not to say I don't admire men, respect them, even look up to them in some ways, like his intelligence, his insight, his ambition, those are qualities I can truly admire.

But when he starts to control, or makes "cracks" about my independence, that's where I draw the line.

Like I said, when I'm in love and in a RL, as I am now, I need HIM, not for financial reasons, but to "enhance" my already fulfilling life, give more meaning and value to it.

I don't need him to survive, as I'm perfectly okay on my own too.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[Woggle]

47 minutes ago, preraph said:

Woggle, I'm mystified why, if your marriage is so happy, this remains such an issue for you.  I realize you've had a really bad experience, but from what you've written, I just do not see it applying to very many women at all who would fall into that category.  

I really am not taking it as seriously as it comes across but the OP wanted to know why independent women sometimes have a hard time getting great guys and I am saying why. I am just saying what the average man thinks. A man has it together just does not want to walk on eggshells and worry about getting to close or a woman is going to think he is trying to steal her independence. In many of these threads I am trying to explain what goes on in the mind of the average man and this is what many of my friends tell me. Nobody man or woman wants to be with somebody who always keeps them at arms length.

[Emilie Jolie]

There's this frustrating trend where invariably on the topic of independent, confident women the discussion shifts to women having to defend or explain their status, or prove their value whether they be single by choice or by circumstance, or dating or kids free or never married etc. Why is that?

Being a high achiever, independent and confident doesn't mean you value your partner less. It doesn't mean you are less feminine, or not vulnerable. It doesn't mean you have one foot out the door, or that you hate men. It means you know what you want. That is all.

I really hope you have not been deterred@Hopeful30. There are confident, secure, open-minded, emotionally intelligent single men out there. There is one for you too.

[preraph]

26 minutes ago, Woggle said:

I really am not taking it as seriously as it comes across but the OP wanted to know why independent women sometimes have a hard time getting great guys and I am saying why. I am just saying what the average man thinks. A man has it together just does not want to walk on eggshells and worry about getting to close or a woman is going to think he is trying to steal her independence. In many of these threads I am trying to explain what goes on in the mind of the average man and this is what many of my friends tell me. Nobody man or woman wants to be with somebody who always keeps them at arms length.

I think you are far left of the average man on this and that your idea of what an independent woman is equates to an abusive woman which simply is not the case. 

 

As far as walking on eggshells, people only tolerate so much and they shouldn't want to or have to. 

[SumGuy]

2 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

There's this frustrating trend where invariably on the topic of independent, confident women the discussion shifts to women having to defend or explain their status, or prove their value whether they be single by choice or by circumstance, or dating or kids free or never married etc. Why is that?

Being a high achiever, independent and confident doesn't mean you value your partner less. It doesn't mean you are less feminine, or not vulnerable. It doesn't mean you have one foot out the door, or that you hate men. It means you know what you want. That is all.

I really hope you have not been deterred@Hopeful30. There are confident, secure, open-minded, emotionally intelligent single men out there. There is one for you too.

So true.   

[Cookiesandough]

43 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

cookie, I'm the same.  And sadly have had some guys become real threatened by that which reflected in their actions and words.

And when that happens, for me it was a big NEXT.

Jmo, but guys who feel threatened by a woman's independence and prefer a more needy woman, are needy themselves, insecure, and have a tendency to be controlling.

They'd rather a woman be needy so they don't have to confront their own needy behaviour, and to make them feel more superior.

Story of my life pretty much - meeting men who try to control me. Ugh. 

Not gonna work with me.   That's not to say I don't admire men, respect them, even look up to them in some ways, like his intelligence, his insight, his ambition, those are qualities I can truly admire.

But when he starts to control, or makes "cracks" about my independence, that's where I draw the line.

Like I said, when I'm in love and in a RL, as I am now, I need HIM, not for financial reasons, but to "enhance" my already fulfilling life, give more meaning and value to it.

I don't need him to survive, as I'm perfectly okay on my own too.

 

Wow, poppy. I guess I am lucky that I have never met a guy who was threatened by it. I agree with the rest of your post 100%

[SumGuy]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

I think you are far left of the average man on this and that your idea of what an independent woman is equates to an abusive woman which simply is not the case. 

I would say more to the right than left if you are implying politics.

Of course what is an average man?  Believe it depends on where you live and the social circles/culture you are in.  

[Woggle]

5 minutes ago, preraph said:

I think you are far left of the average man on this and that your idea of what an independent woman is equates to an abusive woman which simply is not the case. 

 

As far as walking on eggshells, people only tolerate so much and they shouldn't want to or have to. 

But these are the kind of women who go around talking about how independent they are. It is similar to nice guys. Of course being nice is a good thing but these men twist the way some women twist strong and independent. I have heard women who cheated on a man and took him to the cleaners call themselves independent because they got one over on a man. 

I am not trying to put down anybody but the OP wanted to know why some women have trouble in relationships and I am saying why. If a man asked questions on why he is having dating issues he should get an response as well. Not from me because I can't get inside the mind of a woman but he should know how many women are thinking. My bluntness and honesty is in no way intended in a negative way towards anybody.

[Cookiesandough]

33 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

There's this frustrating trend where invariably on the topic of independent, confident women the discussion shifts to women having to defend or explain their status, or prove their value whether they be single by choice or by circumstance, or dating or kids free or never married etc. Why is that?

Being a high achiever, independent and confident doesn't mean you value your partner less. It doesn't mean you are less feminine, or not vulnerable. It doesn't mean you have one foot out the door, or that you hate men. It means you know what you want. That is all.

I really hope you have not been deterred@Hopeful30. There are confident, secure, open-minded, emotionally intelligent single men out there. There is one for you too.

Yes. Topics like "all men/women are like this" always start tha because one person has made a generalization about people that other people want to defend and on and on and on. Plant a seed and watch it grow to 6+ pages invariably. Because people do have these stereotypes and opinions about people, I suppose.

 

To me,  as fooloftheyear mentioned, there is a niceguy quality about the "men don't like strong, independent women" It's almost exactly like "women don't like nice guys" I have never once met a man intimidated by my education or the fact I have a life going on my own, but I'm sure some exist. If you are regularly meeting men like this, I say change your circle or maybe look to something else about you... (not you, Emilie. I mean you)

Edited April 14, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[preraph]

36 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

I would say more to the right than left if you are implying politics.

Of course what is an average man?  Believe it depends on where you live and the social circles/culture you are in.  

No, I'm not implying politics.  Just mean "out in left field."

[preraph]

36 minutes ago, Woggle said:

But these are the kind of women who go around talking about how independent they are. It is similar to nice guys. Of course being nice is a good thing but these men twist the way some women twist strong and independent.

But those aren't really nice guys.  Presumably, the women really ARE independent.  But that's beside the point, because except for on here, where we talk about these things, I don't know any women who go around telling their dates how independent they are.  

[Woggle]

2 minutes ago, preraph said:

But those aren't really nice guys.  Presumably, the women really ARE independent.  But that's beside the point, because except for on here, where we talk about these things, I don't know any women who go around telling their dates how independent they are.  

Exactly. I know women who make it a point to go around talking about how they don't need a man and how useless men are and all of that. The ironic thing is that many of fold up when a man treats them the same way. I had a FWB shortly after my first marriage ended who talked like this so I thought the strictly sex arrangement mentality would work for the both of us since the last thing I wanted at the time was a relationship. When she saw that I really wanted just sex from her she turned into a mess who declared her love for me and cried that I dragged her along. That want what you can't have pull is powerful for both men and women.