Insecure women get great guys. Confident women get the clingers?

[Cookiesandough]

28 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I'm not saying that. People are attracted to whoever they are attracted to, there are no rights or wrongs. I'm talking about social perceptions, not individual cases.

I agree the perception that men do not want a successful woman does exist, otherwise this thread and some of the opinions in it wouldn't, but I've failed to see this play out pragmatically to say it is anything more than that. In this thread, I've seen a man say he doesn't like women who ignore their texts and don't seem to show enough interest, a man say he doesn't like women who are misandrists, and a man say he doesn't like doesn't like women who describe themselves as 'independent'.  I've yet to see enough evidence that most men do not like or are intimidated successful/confident/independent women for those characteristics alone and that it's simply not a scapegoat in the perception some of these women.I'm in a very difficult program and only had interest become stronger when men find out about it.

Not saying that it can't be true, just think it's something for these women to consider as a possibility...

Edited April 14, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[preraph]

29 minutes ago, Woggle said:

Male bashers who think men are useless and obsolete are the ones who helped give stigma to that word. 

That's literally the first time I've hard men referred to as "obsolete," and it was a man who said it.  

[Woggle]

Educated and successful women actually marry more often and get divorced less so clearly it doesn't hurt them in the love department.

[preraph]

I would love to hear a man say he's independent.  To me, that means he's not living at home and not leaning on someone and is able to pay his own bills.  When I was young, that was not a given.  

[Emilie Jolie]

1 minute ago, Cookiesandough said:

I agree the perception that men do not want a successful woman does exist, otherwise this thread and some of the opinions in it wouldn't, but I've failed to see this play out pragmatically to say it is anything more than that. In this thread, I've seen a man say he doesn't like women who ignore their texts and don't seem to show enough interest, a man say he doesn't like women who are misandrists, and a man say he doesn't like doesn't like women who describe themselves as 'independent'. I've yet to see enough evidence that most men do not like are intimidated successful/confident/independent women for those characteristics alone and that it's simply not a scapegoat in the perception some of these women.

The perception is about single child free successful independent women past a certain age (which I believe to be the case for Hopeful30), not simply 'independent' women. My point is that I empathise with her situation, I understand her frustrations and hope she sees there are quite a few good men around who can fit the bill. I understand the point of this forum is to offer a little bit of hope, that's all.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

2 hours ago, enigma32 said:

As a guy, I generally find the "I don't need a man" type of woman to be very off putting. In fact, any woman that describes herself as independent usually just turns me off. Her independence does not, but her need to tell everyone how independent she is, does. I just avoid those types. But then, maybe some other guy eats that stuff up. 

That's exactly it.

It's like "bisexual"...      great...    you're bisexual...

 

it isn't your being "bisexual" that is any concern...

 

it is your having felt it necessary in any way to inform your next prospective monogamous partner OF your "bisexuality" that is the red flare.

[Hopeful30]

8 hours ago, Woggle said:

Maybe needed is a bad word but to have a successful relationship both people should be valued. If you don't value and treasure your mate who are you even with them? Why commit to something where you have one foot out the door and can take or leave it?

I imagine to cast a wide net to increase the chances of finding a suitable mate. If we commit early to every prospect, it would take a very long time to find the right mate (and women have biological clocks).

6 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

There's this frustrating trend where invariably on the topic of independent, confident women the discussion shifts to women having to defend or explain their status, or prove their value whether they be single by choice or by circumstance, or dating or kids free or never married etc. Why is that?

Being a high achiever, independent and confident doesn't mean you value your partner less. It doesn't mean you are less feminine, or not vulnerable. It doesn't mean you have one foot out the door, or that you hate men. It means you know what you want. That is all.

I really hope you have not been deterred@Hopeful30. There are confident, secure, open-minded, emotionally intelligent single men out there. There is one for you too.

Thank you for this.

[Woggle]

A woman can be the CEO of a major or the president of a country and as long as she isn't repulsive and knows how to relate to and get along with men she should have no problem finding somebody.

[SumGuy]

13 hours ago, Woggle said:

A woman can be the CEO of a major or the president of a country and as long as she isn't repulsive and knows how to relate to and get along with men she should have no problem finding somebody.

If you are a CEO of a major corporation or president of a country I believe you will have no problem finding a man (maybe not the man) no matter how repulsive or badly you treat people.  Male CEOs and presidents seem to have no trouble finding a woman no matter how repulsive or clueless the are about women in general.  At that level of wealth and power there is always someone looking for gold, of course odious men are more likely to have their self serving character lauded as strength or some other positive character trait.

It's really more an accomplished woman finding THE man, not just any man, the man likely being someone of comparable accomplishments.  As such accomplished people are a subset of the overall pool of men, it is of course harder, but the same applies to an accomplished man looking for an accomplished woman.   Both genders in this realm are hard to find and can go off the market fast, which makes it harder.  Not that finding a great match for a LTR is easy for anyone.

[Cookiesandough]

2 hours ago, SumGuy said:

If you are a CEO of a major corporation or president of a country I believe you will have no problem finding a man (maybe not the man) no matter how repulsive or badly you treat people.  Male CEOs and presidents seem to have no trouble finding a woman no matter how repulsive or clueless the are about women in general.  At that level of wealth and power there is always someone looking for gold, of course odious men are more likely to have their self serving character lauded as strength or some other positive character trait.

It's really more an accomplished woman finding THE man, not just any man, the man likely being someone of comparable accomplishments.  As such accomplished people are a subset of the overall pool of men, it is of course harder, but the same applies to an accomplished man looking for an accomplished woman.   Both genders in this realm are hard to find and can go off the market fast, which makes it harder.  Not that finding a great match for a LTR is easy for anyone.

Good point. The pool of men who meet an accomplished woman's standards are much smaller and you have to consider the guys in that pool who do not care much about accomplishments, so they are competing with other women perhaps less accomplished but better looking or whatever else. It doesn't mean guys are turned off by accomplishment.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[Woggle]

This is true but many of them seem to find quality men. I think pretty much all the women running for president in the primary were married and they seem to speak fondly of their husbands. Plenty of successful women also find love.

[stillafool]

19 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Good point. The pool of men who meet an accomplished woman's standards are much smaller and you have to consider the guys in that pool who do not care much about accomplishments, so they are competing with other women perhaps less accomplished but better looking or whatever else. It doesn't mean guys are turned off by accomplishment.

This is exactly it, but it doesn't mean the less accomplished ones are insecure clingers either.  I'm sure they have many good qualities other than just their looks.

Edited April 15, 2020 by stillafool

[Emilie Jolie]

3 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Both genders in this realm are hard to find and can go off the market fast, which makes it harder.

Right.

I actually remember watching an interview with a couple of high profile attractive celebrity women (I think Charlize Theron and Kylie Minogue) saying that actually very few men IRL were approaching them; . The thing is, the pool of independent, accomplished men is much larger than its female counterpart, at least for the pre-Millenial gens, who frankly have it easy thanks to the hard work put in by previous gens. I mean women CEO are still only 6.6% of the Fortune 500 list, so we're not quite there yet even though things are much better than they were.

Most couples I know IRL are equals in qualifications and achievements,  divorce rate is rife but recouplings are often done within the same professional circle. There are gradually more SAHDs but it's more about shared responsibilities or nannies for those who have children. 

[Cookiesandough]

Same, Emilie @ the most couples I know seeming to be "equals" 

I remember some celebrities saying that, but you have to consider that celebrities are hard to compare to others. People are intimidated to approach celebrities due to their fame. Also, just because someone is beautiful and famous does not mean they have other qualities that make a desirable dating partner...

Edited April 15, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[Woggle]

A lot of celebrities male and female are head cases as well. 

[Emilie Jolie]

@CookiesandoughYes, celebs are a different breed but it's just to illustrate it's not always straightforward for 'independent, accomplished' women to find partners regardless of looks. There's nothing to assume these 2 are bad partners either. It's really good that things are moving in the right direction and likely things have changed a lot already (equality is more of an expected thing for 20-something, I assume cookies?) but there's definitely a generational gap at play.

[Woggle]

I can't speak for Kylie Minogue because but I have read interviews with Charlize that would indicate she had some issues and how do we know her relationship status is not of her choosing? Nothing wrong with that at all but don't make it to be something that reflects negatively on men. On the other hand Sheryl Sandberg got married twice. Oprah is not married but she seems to be in a happy relationship. Plenty of famous and successful women have successful relationhips.

[Emilie Jolie]

28 minutes ago, Woggle said:

Nothing wrong with that at all but don't make it to be something that reflects negatively on men.

No one has. That seems to be a prevailing concern of yours, for some reason? I'm not sure why you're intent on reading anti-male bias into a post about accomplished women. These 2 women I cited haven't always been single, there's no way of knowing how good or bad they are as partners (unless you know them personally? I know I don't). In their interviews, they were both saying they were not approached by men, contrary to popular misconceptions. They didn't say they struggled to get into RLs, or that they didn't like men. Maybe some men think it's pointless approaching them because they assume these women are already swamped with attention, or they look 'too good to be true'. This is not a bad reflection on men, or on these 2 women, it's just to illustrate the point that accomplished people are like everyone else; they don't always get better 'options' just because of their status, and there may not be anything 'wrong' with them either. 

Of course there are plenty of successful people in happy RLs - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[thefooloftheyear]

I think one of the main problems I see is women want guys to "change" to suit them and they(guys) aren't complying....When I say "they" I mean the type of men those women are looking for...They exist, but aren't seemingly all that on board with it...

I saw a recent video where a comedienne (Nikki Glaser) was going on about what she needed to do to attract the right guy....It was a comedy act for sure, but like with a lot of other comedy routines its usually derived out of something that has real world application..

TFY

[Woggle]

Normally people who have fame, status and looks are single because they want to be and there is nothing wrong with that but it isn't because potential partners are somehow doing wrong. The same applies to men. Leonardo Dicaprio could have been married a decade ago but this is the life he chose. 

[preraph]

They're having too much fun to want to get married, unless marriage and kids is also a big dream of theirs.

[Emilie Jolie]

Yeah I guess some like to be single, some married their childhood sweethearts, some go in and out of RLs, etc, They're just people at the end of the day, status or no status.

To get back on topic, as @SumGuysays, if you're not single by choice past a certain stage, it's probably because the pool of compatible partners shrink as we get more set in our ways and settled in our circles so we get less opportunities to mingle with like-minded people. I met my SO by chance, and I really feel I struck luck. As I said upthread somewhere, the key might be to widen those professional and social circles, enlist friends to help you find eligible partners,  make yourself available, and hopefully the rest will follow with a bit of luck and a dash of open-mindedness.

[Cookiesandough]

Leo DiCaprio also came from a broken home. If you didn't grow up with a model of a successful marriage and you're happy with your life now I can definitely see why you'd say why bother with it.

[chillii]

On 4/15/2020 at 8:12 AM, poppyfields said:

@enigma, oh good I'm doing it right then.  lol  .  See my response to cookie, I haven't been inclined to describe myself as anything and simply let it all come out gradually.

I just thought of something too though, with some men having a fear of gold diggers, wouldn't they welcome knowing a woman is independent?

It's all so confusing, I'm glad I'm currently in a relationship!! 

 

To me it'd be nothing to do with the terms , and l'd welcome independence l mean most women work these days anyway so they're independent , big deal. When l was single early 50s anyone l met 40s early 50s was independent had houses money some didn't even work anymore , l couldn't care less it's a good thing.

But say if someone was to describe themselves say as a strong independent career women that would probably turn me off. Because l've met quite a few that would describe themselves like that and l haven't liked many let me say because of their personalities and often common traits. Chip on their shoulders and what l'd call quite hard and coldish , to me unfeminine and lacking warmth , not what l like at all, so that was a different kettle of fish altogether. On the other hand though show me one that isn't that way and l'd be fine about her and l realize not all are but l have found it very common.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Emilie Jolie]

I'm starting to wonder whether this is an OLD issue with women describing themselves as 'independent' in writing form on a profile? Apparently the words 'independent' or 'strong' or 'accomplished' seem to trigger a handful of over-sensitive men, but it seems it's an online phenomenon mostly. IRL, secure, emotionally stable men  It's not something most women shout from the rooftops usually anyway, so I'm trying to find a rational explanation to what seems like, at first glance, simply an assortment of ready-made assumptions and stereotypes.

Or maybe 'lack of warmth' is simply a handy natural deterrent used by women to avoid men they have have zero attraction to. Smart women are generally quite adept at picking on needy, insecure men.