Insecure women get great guys. Confident women get the clingers?

[SumGuy]

19 minutes ago, Woggle said:

The flaws I describe would be unattractive in men as well. Most women don't want a cold and stand-offish men and most don't want a man who treats dating like a gender war to be won. Never in my life have I ever asked for what I was not willing to deliver myself.

Agreed, hence why I put "cold / stand offish" in quotes in this regard.

I believe a lot of behavior in women that is just self contained, confident and quite behavior (heck she may be an introvert, gasp) is painted as cold or stand offish...it being a much lower bar for women to get these negative labels than men.    In the cases where I have actually interacted with such a woman a man is complaining about, it was always all in his head.  She was fine, sure she may give you a look if you started trying to "chat her up," but not so if you took another conversational route...alas one needs to be able to get the distinction in the first place...different tools for different jobs.

[preraph]

39 minutes ago, Woggle said:

The flaws I describe would be unattractive in men as well. Most women don't want a cold and stand-offish men and most don't want a man who treats dating like a gender war to be won. Never in my life have I ever asked for what I was not willing to deliver myself.

Sadly there are some who like cold men.  One I know sometimes chased that type.  Guys who would turn around and walk off if she came up and said hi and was wanting to strike up a conversation.  And she married one and he's still that way.

 

There's men who chase that too.  I've known a couple who went for the really cold ladies who really had no redeeming features (not success or personality) except hot looking. There's plenty of men go for that.  

Edited April 17, 2020 by preraph

[Woggle]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

Sadly there are some who like cold men.  One I know sometimes chased that type.  Guys who would turn around and walk off if she came up and said hi and was wanting to strike up a conversation.  And she married one and he's still that way.

People who chase after this type tend not to end up in healthy relationships. For men and women who want that cold people are not the ideal partner.

[preraph]

8 minutes ago, Woggle said:

People who chase after this type tend not to end up in healthy relationships. For men and women who want that cold people are not the ideal partner.

Oh, I agree!  I got too much pride for that crap.  I don't see how my friend stood it.  He's a bit better after this many years and the kids older, but man.  He just tried to stay uninvolved except for contributing money.  

 

Two guys I knew dated the same cold Ethyl for her looks. One ended up her setting fire to his room and the other with a broken wrist, and I didn't ask how that happened, but I've got an idea.  Both guys were good friends of mine.  

 

I do love a guy who acted aloof to a lot of people, but he talked to me and was very special.  

Edited April 17, 2020 by preraph

[Emilie Jolie]

10 minutes ago, preraph said:

Guys who would turn around and walk off if she came up and said hi and was wanting to strike up a conversation.

OMG. That's not just being cold, that's plain rude! 

 

 

[Woggle]

It's not even about being cold. I knew a woman that cheated on her husband constantly and told the other men she was single so they could spend money on her and bragged that she was a strong and independent feminist who was beating men at our own game.

[preraph]

5 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

OMG. That's not just being cold, that's plain rude! 

 

 

Yeah, this one she chased off and on, he was just playing games.  He did it with another one of her friends too who he did end up dating when they were younger and then he propositioned me in an admittedly hilarious way once, which I kept to myself.  She is a sweet woman, but she had abandonment issues with her dad, so this was all too familiar a pattern for her.  She had to always chase the friendship and he would acquiesce but then often humiliate her in public.  She denies this, but I kept an eye on her.  She always made excuses for him.  They never did end up dating.  She had to make all the moves with who she married, too.   

[preraph]

7 minutes ago, Woggle said:

It's not even about being cold. I knew a woman that cheated on her husband constantly and told the other men she was single so they could spend money on her and bragged that she was a strong and independent feminist who was beating men at our own game.

Whew.  Well, I guess we know she was neither strong nor independent, just a bit of a narcissist or sociopath!

[Woggle]

3 hours ago, preraph said:

Whew.  Well, I guess we know she was neither strong nor independent, just a bit of a narcissist or sociopath!

Exactly and self proclaim nice guys are not usually nice.

[chillii]

7 hours ago, Woggle said:

Truly independent and accomplished I have found usually have great personalities. The difference is in the doing vs the saying. Women who make something of themselves, are intelligent and make an honest living are worlds different than who go around talking about how strong and independent they are. You have gold diggers talking about how independent they are because they are getting one over on men. They view relationships as an us vs them gender war that they feel they are losing if they any kind of niceness or tenderness towards a man.

Yeah your probably onto something here. One friend of mine , absolutely gorgeous woman , in her ways and person l mean , but also a stunner too actually, she's some big shot runs a massive company.   Walking along with my brother one day and and some chick walks up big smile gives him a big hug and chats away 5mins , l said to him later damn she seem like such a nice chick man , he says yeah she is , and she's a criminal lawyer you know , never pick it would ya.  Mind you she was just in her knock about clothes and stuff , has horses and stuff, probably wouldn't wanna mess with her in the courtroom though haha.There's a real peace about a woman that is at peace with herself, that's the difference.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by chillii

[OpenBook]

On 4/10/2020 at 12:19 PM, Hopeful30 said:

How is it that women who are confident and carry their weight struggle in the dating world while 'user' women find themselves in the kind of relationships I only dream of? 

I've always suspected it has something to do with the male ego. They want a woman who magnifies their own leadership and masculinity. A confident woman who carries her weight threatens that (they perceive, anyway). They're afraid she will overshadow them somehow. They want to be regarded as The Hero, The Knight In Shining Armor who sweeps her off her feet and rescues her. The stronger one.

[chillii]

Oh godddd, and there's the typical female response to this stuff, you can lead a horse to water buttt, you obviously haven't read or understood one damn thing through this thread, same ol same ol.  Ahwell , l'm out, ps , againnnn,  no surprises.

Edited April 18, 2020 by chillii
ps

[Emilie Jolie]

16 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

The only issue here is that if "something" is lost during that process, then its not going to be something that desirable guys are going to warm up to...

I don't know what your definition of 'desirable' is but most of the men around me are at least highly qualified. They are all in RLs with women with similar qualifications, accomplishments, etc. There strangely are no trophy wives or SAHMs or gold diggers or whatever in my social circle. We all work and share responsibilities in all areas in most working couples I know, including mine. If anything is 'lost', it's an individual thing, not a 'independence has made women less feminine' thing.

The women I know personally are either medics, academics, journalists, lawyers, etc. Some are single, some are in LTRs, some have kids, some don't. I see nothing 'missing' in them that can be directly attributed to being independent or accomplished or whatever. I genuinely don't understand where that comes from. How many women IRL (not on LS - posters here are venting or looking for advice) walk with signs around their neck saying 'I'm too accomplished for men'? Sure there are outliers, but I don't believe there are enough of them to make it a generalisation.

 

[Emilie Jolie]

Just adding that whatever setup people choose to have for their own RLs is of course totally fine. Being accomplished, successful, independent, confident, etc are all relative concepts anyway. You can be a confident, successful SAHP or an independent psycho; they're personal attributes, not generic to all people in your group.

[thefooloftheyear]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I don't know what your definition of 'desirable' is but most of the men around me are at least highly qualified. They are all in RLs with women with similar qualifications, accomplishments, etc. There strangely are no trophy wives or SAHMs or gold diggers or whatever in my social circle. We all work and share responsibilities in all areas in most working couples I know, including mine. If anything is 'lost', it's an individual thing, not a 'independence has made women less feminine' thing.

The women I know personally are either medics, academics, journalists, lawyers, etc. Some are single, some are in LTRs, some have kids, some don't. I see nothing 'missing' in them that can be directly attributed to being independent or accomplished or whatever. I genuinely don't understand where that comes from. How many women IRL (not on LS - posters here are venting or looking for advice) walk with signs around their neck saying 'I'm too accomplished for men'? Sure there are outliers, but I don't believe there are enough of them to make it a generalisation.

 

My definition of desirable is probably the same as yours, but I dunno...Intelligent, witty, attractive/fit., accomplished, blah blah...

I agree with pretty much all of your post, In fact I recall mentioning in a previous post that I know tons of women like this,  including practically all my female relatives!

But we are here and this is the discussion...And it's brought up on here fairly regularly....Sure it's individual...But rest assured if a woman is having dating or relationship problems, or just trouble attracting or keeping a man interested, its more than likely not because she's accomplished, educated, qualified, etc....I have no idea where that thinking comes from...because I have never seen it...In all cases it's nothing but a plus for most any man....Now...maybe  somewhere along the line, something occurred in that process that changed her(or maybe she never had "It" in the first place?). Or maybe it's none of the above...some people (men and women) sadly just struggle, period...That would be like a guy saying he struggles with women because he has too much money...

One thing I have noticed is that some women expect that a man should accept that because a woman is "too busy" in her career to worry/fuss about her hair, her body, her appearance, etc, then that should be ok for them and that all of these desirable men are now going to welcome these women with open arms......Unfortunately, in my experience that hasn't been the case...That's the point behind my previous comment, where I stated guys haven't changed....Maybe as time goes on, we'll see a movement where desirable guys are more accepting of that aspect, but for now it's not happening....Not among anyone I know or have experience with...And you see a lot of these women throwing bottles at attractive/"pretty" slim/fit women, calling them idiots and trophy wives when they don't even know them, don't have a clue about what type of educational background they have, what type of business they may be running, career history or accomplishments they have,  etc...It's silly, really...

And btw, I'll freely admit that it's become particularly hard for women now..."Be career oriented but also be sexy as hell"...Both usually take a lot of work, especially as women age...I'd imagine that it must be incredibly hard for some to keep that up and I wouldn't blame them one bit for letting the second part go....its not going to pay the bills, really....so I get that completely...

Bottom line is if a woman thinks an attractive guy is not going to be interested in them, or dumped them because they were too intelligent, too accomplished, made too much money, etc, Id say look elsewhere, because in almost all cases its NOT the reason..

TFY

Edited April 18, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

7 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

And you see a lot of these women throwing bottles at attractive/"pretty" slim/fit women, calling them idiots and trophy wives when they don't even know them, don't have a clue about what type of educational background they have, what type of business they may be running, career history or accomplishments they have,  etc...It's silly, really...

 

So very true!  If they took a chance to get to know them they'd see there's a lot underneath all the beauty.  I have a few friends like this.  Very high maintenance physically-speaking, but there's also so much depth to them once you get to know them.  ❤️

[simpycurious]

17 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

OMG. That's not just being cold, that's plain rude! 

 

 

This is so true.  I have talked to women who have approached me that I would NEVER date and been cordial and engaging.  It's about being a decent person.  There are so many misconceptions that people seem to form in their minds: she/he is blonde, fit, etc ....THEY ARE dumb, he is an accomplished athlete automatically.....HE is a dumb jock (not necessarily true), She wears sexy clothes......SHE IS slutty.  In so MANY cases, these preconceived notions are not even remotely accurate about the person. It's really not a good idea to pre-judge anyone. 

[Emilie Jolie]

38 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Maybe as time goes on, we'll see a movement where desirable guys are more accepting of that aspect, but for now it's not happening....

It is happening. It's always happened. There's no sub-group of 'desirable guys' who haven't moved on with the times. If they haven't, they're not desirable. People see different things in the people they are attracted to. I don't know what 'letting yourself go to the benefit of your career is' by the way; that's not a concept I'm familiar with. 

There also are men who don't like women who are more accomplished than them. It's not a myth, it's a fact. I really don't understand how this reality is so hard to accept. Maybe there are women who are haughty and justify their dating woes on their accomplishments but that's not what I'm talking about. 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[Emilie Jolie]

43 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

And you see a lot of these women throwing bottles at attractive/"pretty" slim/fit women, calling them idiots and trophy wives

Where do you live?? 

[thefooloftheyear]

8 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

It is happening. It's always happened. There's no sub-group of 'desirable guys' who haven't moved on with the times. If they haven't, they're not desirable. People see different things in the people they are attracted to. I don't know what 'letting yourself go to the benefit of your career is' by the way; that's not a concept I'm familiar with. 

There also are men who don't like women who are more accomplished than them. It's not a myth, it's a fact. I really don't understand how this reality is so hard to accept. Maybe there are women who are haughty and justify their dating woes on their accomplishments but that's not what I'm talking about. 

 

There's nothing to understand...You have your experiences and I have mine...As a guy that doesn't struggle/isn't looking, and knows more accomplished and desirable men than most, maybe I offer a perspective that's worthy to note.  But if you choose to discount it, fine...no sweat...🙂

[thefooloftheyear]

4 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Where do you live?? 

The locale often referred to as the hub of the world..where accomplished men and women are as common as  bellybuttons on humans..

TFY

Edited April 18, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[Emilie Jolie]

12 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

The hub of the world..where accomplished men and women are like bellybuttons on humans..

TFY

You live in my village? Small world.

[Emilie Jolie]

1 hour ago, simpycurious said:

This is so true.  I have talked to women who have approached me that I would NEVER date and been cordial and engaging.  It's about being a decent person.  There are so many misconceptions that people seem to form in their minds: she/he is blonde, fit, etc ....THEY ARE dumb, he is an accomplished athlete automatically.....HE is a dumb jock (not necessarily true), She wears sexy clothes......SHE IS slutty.  In so MANY cases, these preconceived notions are not even remotely accurate about the person. It's really not a good idea to pre-judge anyone. 

True, misconceptions and ready-made judgements are not great. I persoanlly don't think any better or worse about a physically fit person, a bookworm, a nerd, an overweight person, an uneducated person, an academic person, etc without knowing them personally. As I said upthread, accomplishment, confidence, etc are all relative concepts anyway.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[OpenBook]

14 hours ago, chillii said:

Oh godddd, and there's the typical female response to this stuff, you can lead a horse to water buttt, you obviously haven't read or understood one damn thing through this thread, same ol same ol.  Ahwell , l'm out, ps , againnnn,  no surprises.

Sorry, didn't mean to trigger you chillii! And you're absolutely right, I didn't read the whole thread before I responded.

This is what I said that I think you reacted to (I haven't figured out yet how to multi-quote, so I just copied what I wrote): "I've always suspected it has something to do with the male ego. They want a woman who magnifies their own leadership and masculinity. A confident woman who carries her weight threatens that (they perceive, anyway). They're afraid she will overshadow them somehow. They want to be regarded as The Hero, The Knight In Shining Armor who sweeps her off her feet and rescues her. The stronger one."

So I went back and read the whole thread. Whoops! This has already been discussed, over and over again.

So maybe I'm wrong! I would love to be wrong about this.

I'm interpreting (from what men posted in this thread) that it's not the independence itself, it's her ATTITUDE about the independence that's a turn-off for men. Ok... So how SHOULD we women view our own independence that would be attractive to you? Or does it not matter whether she is independent or not?

I saw vague descriptions of what men ARE attracted to. They want "feminine" and "warm" and "emotionally available." What does that look like? Can you (general you, toward all males posting in this thread) be more specific about what that looks like?

[preraph]

Honestly, there's a lot of guys who just want to have the final say and really hate even having to discuss and negotiate things with women.  But I don't think that's Chili.  He's got one who may be independent but is having an emotional meltdown during this virus quarantine and is prone to argue quite a bit.  He's probably pretty laid back to even be with her.  She may just be high strung.  Don't know.  

 

I know in my limited experience having serious talks with exes, they seem to really dread any kind of talk like that.  I do it quietly.  The quieter my voice if, the more upset and serious I am.  I used to have a boss who first noticed that about me.  I hadn't really realized it myself.  The reaction I've often gotten when there had to be a talk (which usually was at the end) with bfs is they really just sit there and look guilty while at the same time unrepentent, basically, not communicative, not remorseful.  Usually shocked that it never got loud before I wanted them to take their stuff and go.  Meanwhile, inside I felt like a grenade about to go off.