Insecure women get great guys. Confident women get the clingers?

[basil67]

Very true @FMW  The older women who I mentioned earlier probably did say something similar to "not interested in romance" or "I'm having a great time just doing my own thing".    That they don't need a man is implied rather than verbalised.

[Malin889]

40 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

Sure if you want an insecure guy, or worse.  Otherwise don’t, ever.   

I was being sarcastic. 

[SumGuy]

39 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Very true @FMW  The older women who I mentioned earlier probably did say something similar to "not interested in romance" or "I'm having a great time just doing my own thing".    That they don't need a man is implied rather than verbalised.

I read it as don’t want or need a relationship, which would think all the men interested mostly in FWB or who also don’t want to commit would welcome.   

[SincereOnlineGuy]

On 4/10/2020 at 9:19 AM, Hopeful30 said:

I've recently noticed (in my social surroundings) that insecure women have good, stable boyfriends who meet their standards while the confident, secure women struggle to find love because they attract the needy men who don't bring as much to the table.

Why do you think this is? Typically like attracts like, so I'm surprised to see quality men enter relationships with women who are 'lesser than' (for lack of a better word). By this I mean women who don't bring the same quality into the relationship (ie: man is financially and morally supportive, woman is demanding, spends his money and is emotionally draining/insecure). 

Opposites do not attract. We naturally gravitate towards like-minded people with similar values, lifestyles, etc. How is it that women who are confident and carry their weight struggle in the dating world while 'user' women find themselves in the kind of relationships I only dream of? 

 

A vast subset of actually confident women are out there living life and doing things with minimal need for a guy.

They don't care whether a guy cums, lays, stays or prays.

 

Insecure women probably define themselves by whatever guy they have...  so it's their focus, and the way they validate themselves...

(and some often say:   "the hotter you are, the more insecure you are"...  meanwhile, successful guys are getting the seemingly "hottest" women )

 

The pseudo-confident  women are those you see getting the clingers.

 

So it's more your perception than anything else.

 

Actually confident women are in no way lining up to be any part of your observed sample, so the pseudo-confident women are over-represented in your data set.

 

 

 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, SumGuy said:

I read it as don’t want or need a relationship, which would think all the men interested mostly in FWB or who also don’t want to commit would welcome.   

My friends who are saying this are generally mid 50's plus.   They aren't looking for sex or FWB.  They are travelling and doing fun stuff with other single women. 

[SumGuy]

12 hours ago, basil67 said:

My friends who are saying this are generally mid 50's plus.   They aren't looking for sex or FWB.  They are travelling and doing fun stuff with other single women. 

Oh, I was thinking they were dating, OLD etc., just not looking to integrate anyone into their life or vice versa as a non-FWB relationship would entail.  
Imagine those women you mention are not even on OLD. 

[an0nym0us123]

As a guy i would say strong and confident women are not necessarily attractive. To me these are masculine traits and would do nothing for me personally.

As long as a woman is not a train wreck and has her stuff together thats all that mattered.

I have dated the strong independent type, and tbh i did not feel needed at all. She hardly ever initiated contact. Sometimes we would go days without talking. Not my cup of tea.

The other was a lot less sure of herself and i would hear from her everyday, several times. I knew she wanted and needed me which was attractive

[stillafool]

Is it really fair to say that insecure women get good men.  We don't know anything about these women who end up with good men.  It's probably because they are good women.

[Hopeful30]

On 4/10/2020 at 7:34 PM, Woggle said:

Who wants to be with somebody who makes a point of telling you how not needed you are? Nobody should need another person to survive but somebody who constantly feels the need to drive that point home must have some hostility towards the opposite sex and who needs that in their life?

There is no correlation between confidence and saying these things. Either way, wouldn't you rather be wanted than needed? 

On 4/10/2020 at 9:35 PM, FMW said:

The problem with some confident and independent women, and I count myself among them, is that we aren't good at "needing" people.  Meaning we have a hard time accepting help with things that we are capable of and used to doing for ourselves, which is most things.  

My mother is 73 and doesn't like to accept offers of help because she doesn't want to be seen as "old".  I told her she should sometimes let people help her with certain things (mowing her lawn, basic household repairs) because it makes them feel good to be of service and reminded her how she enjoyed doing things for others.  I've realized I need to take the same advice, particularly with men in whom I have a romantic interest.  It shows the vulnerability necessary to connect with someone, lowering the walls.   

 

This is a strong generalization. Many confident women *love* receiving help from men. I personally find it arousing. Means I don't need to do it myself 😛

On 4/11/2020 at 6:53 AM, Foxhall said:

Hopeful 30, 

I am curious perhaps as to what you mean by "lesser men"-

are you basing this on them merely not being the loudest guy in the room or the guy will not get instant gratification from your friends circle,

the couples you are observing- the women are clearly looking beyond the surface, they obviously see something in their guy which makes him a good catch or whatever, there is clearly more depth to these guys if you took the time to get to know them.

 

 

Men who are not equal to the woman they date. As other posters have mentioned, though, this is from my outsider perspective. The truth is we never know what's really going on.

On 4/11/2020 at 7:35 AM, chillii said:

 

A lot of women go round saying that actually, you've basically just said it yourself really , a lot even around ls say it..But finding a good relationship usually doesn't have much to do with settling either , some people can find them and sense the right situation out , and some just can't , or they do find someone but he isn't interested and yes of course that goes vise versa too. l've also noticed it's quite common for really successful women to just lack in other ways like actually being any good at relationships or having those senses too that just come easily to others. l often see the words skillset used round here about guys , which actually makes me sick tbh , a term like that belongs on a job app, not in love. But , that also goes vise verse and often the case with some women too, and it's usually pretty easy to spot

 

 

 

On the contrary, needing a partner suggests codependence whereas wanting a partner suggests approaching the relationship as a whole, complete person who is ready to enrich their lives. Wouldn't you rather be wanted than needed? 

On 4/11/2020 at 9:09 AM, Malin889 said:

Agree! I am independent, have my own career, house, life. I don’t need a man but I want a man... it would be great to have someone to do things with, to share life with, or be quarantined with. (Or maybe it wouldn’t lol). But I don’t want just anyone, i just don’t want someone for the sake of having someone, I don’t want a “clinger” as the title of the post says. I want the right match, the right person. Someone who I fit perfectly with. Someone who has their own life. I refuse to settle. I think I deserve the best and I’m not going to settle for less. 

I'm in the same boat. However, the only reason I am doing everything on my own is because I don't have any other choice. If I had a man offer me the housewife position, I would gladly accept lol 

On 4/11/2020 at 11:25 AM, Woggle said:

Plenty. I am sure you know the saying that says A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Anybody should be able to stand on their own but most women who have that mentality also have some level of hostility towards men and trying to make a relationship work with somebody like is nearly impossible. A man has to do constant backflips and walk on eggshells in order to prove he isn't trying to steal her independence and it just isn't worth it. 

This is a generalization. Many women, I would argue, are 'independent' because they have no other choice. Think of it this way: how many Western mentality men are ready to take the traditional gender role and allow women to depend on them instead of themselves? 

On 4/11/2020 at 12:06 PM, carhill said:

IMO if you like men and like sex you'll do fine; I learned a lot about this from my exW who, even though she was overweight and not super-attractive, as well as owning her own business and having her own employees and life and was financially independent, always did well with men, never lacked male company. The downside, as the husband du jour, was she knew that and knew she could easily change men as desired so did that. Probably not a downside for her, IDK, but marrying and divorcing men gets tedious after awhile, to me anyway. Maybe it's a process, and will be for you too. The guy she's with now, who she moved in while we were divorcing, maybe will be the last since they're in their 60's. All it takes is a confluence of where one is in their life and the right fit with another person at the right time.

I wouldn't settle. Stay strong, but humble and fair, in your mating perspective. The right confluence of person, place and time will come. The more 'out there', meaning more social, the more opportunities for that to occur. Difficult right now, sure, but this will pass. Good luck!

 

On 4/11/2020 at 4:46 PM, littleblackheart said:

OP, I've seen all sorts of pairings, and all sorts of reasons for why men or women are single, which doesn't always involve dysfunction. My own personal experience is that I like being single more than I like being in a relationship. I'm fairly secure most of the time, I'm reasonably confident and comfortable in my skin. I've gotten a few things out of my system in the time I've been single, I took the time to heal from a bad marriage, I experimented with being a little more open with men, I refined my social skills with men with some degree of success, and only now, nearly 6 years post decree nisi, do I feel less opposed to the possibility of not being single. It's been a full on but gentle journey of self-awakening and self-awareness, but it's taken a while. 

All this to say we all have a journey that explain where we're at now. I don't know your personal history or what makes you think confident women attract 'clingers' (it's not a 'rule' I've seen played out IRL) but I do think that focussing on things you can control, and having a realistic but positive outlook (yes, cliché, but true) do help.

What kind of things are you doing to meet men who tick your boxes?

Currently, nothing due to COVID. However generally, I attend events and activities that interest me and involve a social component, such as yearly festivities, mild sport venues (axe throwing, archery, etc.), group hike trails, outings with friends, billiards social tournaments, etc.

I get attention, but it seldom leads to more. I am curious what energy I am giving off that men show interest but don't take the next step. What's annoying is "why are you single?" instead of "would you like to go out". 

[FMW]

8 minutes ago, Hopeful30 said:

This is a strong generalization.

I said SOME.....

[chillii]

Forgot to mention most of those extremely educated sisters of mine have all been married to very good men for years and most of their friends the same .

l really think as for anyone that has long term trouble in meeting the right person it usually either comes down to just plain old unlucky in love , or personality stuff you just don't know about has been my observation over the years no matter who or what they are. The latter can also include stuff like they just aren't any good at this stuff , or just continually make bad choices , you name it.

Edited April 13, 2020 by chillii

[poppyfields]

17 hours ago, an0nym0us123 said:

I have dated the strong independent type, and tbh i did not feel needed at all. 

The other was a lot less sure of herself and i would hear from her everyday, several times. I knew she wanted and needed me which was attractive

So you're attraction is driven by a women's fears and insecurities, need for reassurance?  

Not judging, just asking, I find that interesting.  As there are some men (and women if roles were reversed) who would be very turned off by that.

Just goes to show ya, there's someone for everyone, our attractions are subjective and to each his/her own.

I think there should be a balance. A woman can be strong and confident, but also not afraid to be vulnerable with her man.  Allowing yourself to be vulnerable is super important imo. 

A woman who can find that balance can be irresistible to many men. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by poppyfields

[littleblackheart]

2 hours ago, Hopeful30 said:

I get attention, but it seldom leads to more. I am curious what energy I am giving off that men show interest but don't take the next step. What's annoying is "why are you single?" instead of "would you like to go out". 

What do you do to encourage them to ask you out? Maybe there's something you could tweak to appear more approachable? Can you perhaps ask friends or family you can trust what your body language conveys?

My experience is kind of the other way around, but I've had to have it explained to me. I didn't understand why I was being asked out when I thought I was giving no sign of interest. It turns out that I was, unwittingly. I appeared 'flirtatious' or at least 'interested' when I only thought I was being friendly, nice or polite. This lead to unbelievably reckless or embarrassing situations, and I'm lucky I had good friends around me teaching me to read social cues. I now play it to my advantage; when you understand how these things work, it all makes sense.

 

I really like being single though, I'm often asked if I miss having a partner (I don't), people assume that there is some sort of issue with me that is 'forcing' me to be single (there isn't), but there's nothing you can do about prejudiced, narrow-minded people. I can only imagine the pressure this poses on single people who haven't found the right person for them.

Edited April 13, 2020 by littleblackheart

[Woggle]

I would rather be wanted than needed and there is nothing wrong with a woman being independent but somebody who makes it a point to tell you how disposable you are does not make a good partner.

[simpycurious]

3 hours ago, Woggle said:

I would rather be wanted than needed and there is nothing wrong with a woman being independent but somebody who makes it a point to tell you how disposable you are does not make a good partner.

YEP....I am still not sure what constitutes a CLINGER. Confidence is never a bad trait to possess.  

[carhill]

My exW described clingy generally as solicitous, hovering in an amount that felt uncomfortable. Hence, if true, the reality of it can vary widely from person to person and from mood to mood. If the wife is annoyed by the mere smell of her husband's presence on the property, anything can be interpreted as clingy. If OTOH, she's itching to jump his schlong, then he can be all over her and not be clingy. This can change from second to second 👍

An anecdote of this topic called last night to complain about her H overcooking the Easter prime rib. Yet she's afraid to be alone and insecure, by her own admission and, yup, been married to a great guy for over 30 years now. TBH, I don't know how he does it. Maybe overcooking the prime rib is the key 😂

[Emilie Jolie]

3 hours ago, Woggle said:

I would rather be wanted than needed and there is nothing wrong with a woman being independent but somebody who makes it a point to tell you how disposable you are does not make a good partner.

'I don't need a partner' does not equate to 'my partner is disposable'. Not heard anyone say that to their partner in that sense. In the literal sense, if you need a partner to be happy, you have anxieties you need to work on, because that's not healthy. Most people quite clearly use it in that context, not sure why it's necessary to twist words so they fit your argument.

[Woggle]

2 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

'I don't need a partner' does not equate to 'my partner is disposable'. Not heard anyone say that to their partner in that sense. In the literal sense, if you need a partner to be happy, you have anxieties you need to work on, because that's not healthy. Most people quite clearly use it in that context, not sure why it's necessary to twist words so they fit your argument.

You have not heard in the context I have heard it used. I once saw a woman hold up an empty bag of chips to her husband and tell him that he is more disposable than that bag and then threw it away. 

[simpycurious]

28 minutes ago, carhill said:

My exW described clingy generally as solicitous, hovering in an amount that felt uncomfortable. Hence, if true, the reality of it can vary widely from person to person and from mood to mood. If the wife is annoyed by the mere smell of her husband's presence on the property, anything can be interpreted as clingy. If OTOH, she's itching to jump his schlong, then he can be all over her and not be clingy. This can change from second to second 👍

An anecdote of this topic called last night to complain about her H overcooking the Easter prime rib. Yet she's afraid to be alone and insecure, by her own admission and, yup, been married to a great guy for over 30 years now. TBH, I don't know how he does it. Maybe overcooking the prime rib is the key 😂

That makes sense Carhill and thanks for the explanation.  I suppose the term CLINGY can be taken in various ways.  That's why you hire a cook if you cannot cook yourself (your prime rib reference)

[Emilie Jolie]

@Wogglethat's not great, but I'm not sure how it fits in the context of this particular thread? 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[Woggle]

1 minute ago, Emilie Jolie said:

@Wogglethat's not great, but I'm not sure how it fits in the context of this particular thread? 

Because when women talk a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle stuff it usually has that kind of misandrist tone to it. They never tell other kinds of relationships in their life like friends how much they don't need them. To be fair men who talk the MGTOW stuff are misogynists as well and nobody wants to date somebody who has that kind of view of their gender.

[Miss Spider]

Some people say  “don’t need a man/woman”  because they feel negatively about the sex for some reason, but a lot of people mean that they are fine without dating/relationships. Nothing wrong with the latter. It doesn’t even necessarily mean they are opposed to it. It just means they are fine without 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[SumGuy]

Just now, Woggle said:

Because when women talk a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle stuff it usually has that kind of misandrist tone to it. They never tell other kinds of relationships in their life like friends how much they don't need them. To be fair men who talk the MGTOW stuff are misogynists as well and nobody wants to date somebody who has that kind of view of their gender.

True enough.   Your example was of a husband and wife, wife may hate husband and think he is disposable...may not view another man that way though.   Married people that hate each other say nasty things.

I do tend to have sympathy though for women, for so many centuries if not millennia women did need a male because women did not have anywhere near equal political or economic rights.  Not that they do in may parts of the world even to this day.  So to the extent it is reactionary or bespeaks a chip on one's shoulder it is not without basis in reality. 

[Emilie Jolie]

Fair enough. I'm not familiar with this, nor am I a feminist, my SO isn't a MGTOW or whatever, and we both still say we don't need a partner in the sense that we've chosen each other. I assume women who mean it in the way you say are a minority. That's really not the first definition that came to my mind.

10 minutes ago, Woggle said:

Because when women talk a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle stuff it usually has that kind of misandrist tone to it. They never tell other kinds of relationships in their life like friends how much they don't need them. To be fair men who talk the MGTOW stuff are misogynists as well and nobody wants to date somebody who has that kind of view of their gender.

 

[Woggle]

My wife and I don't need each other to survive either but we also don't need our friends to survive but we still greatly value each other and our friends. We don't have a take it or leave it kind of attitude towards people who are supposed to mean something to us. Not wanting a partner who has that kind of mentality does not mean that a man is scared of strong and independent women.