Insecure women get great guys. Confident women get the clingers?

[preraph]

Well, if you keep encountering women who do this, come right out saying how useless men are, then you keep talking to them, that's on you.  But I think a good point was made earlier that you may have been running with the wrong crowd.  No one I know would be so coarse and blunt as to come out vocally like this.  They might FEEL that way and leave you later because of low tolerance, but run with a better crowd because any independent women I know would never be this verbally abusive.  

[SumGuy]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

No, I'm not implying politics.  Just mean "out in left field."

I see. 

I wish I could agree it is out in left field, but it seems to be a common view on the internet that an independent woman equates to an abusive woman (e.g. shrew, emotionally supportive, selfish, etc.) most of the time, or at least is less than a "real woman" or not a "feminine woman."   I've also heard this refrain that independent = non-natural / abusive from certain conservative relatives and such...funny, I have never seen more "hen pecked" men than those with wives who hold "traditional" views that independent woman = unnatural.  

In real world experiences I do agree with you the average man I know the independent woman is the desired woman, she is not clingy, she is can do, not whiny (of course if you are a whiny guy watch out), and frankly they seem to be a lot more supportive emotionally than men who marry dependent women.

Perhaps it is the idea that people who are emotionally unavailable call it Independence (seen men do this, but they use the adjective strong).  I believe you can be independent (or strong) and emotionally available, and most people that I know that I'd call independent are also emotionally available.

[preraph]

^ Trust me, I was always independent and always emotionally available to a fault and to my own detriment. So yeah.  

 

To me, what Woggle is talking about was just an abusive woman and he equates that with self-proclaimed independence, when in fact, it's some issue she has from childhood, not from independence making her talk that way.  And if he's known a few who act like that, to me that's just bad manners and someone with no social skills.  

Edited April 14, 2020 by preraph

[Woggle]

Being independent is a good thing but some women misuse it the way some men misuse the word nice. Believe it or not at the time I found her bluntness to be a breath of fresh air. At the time I was under the wrong impression that all or most women deep down were misandrists so I respected her honesty. At turns out in her specific case it was a cover for a lot of issues or her ego just couldn't accept that there was one man she couldn't wrap around her finger.

[preraph]

Well, that kind of makes sense.  But seems like you attracted what you feared most by assuming most women were misandrists because in that case, that actually made you tolerant of her for that one illogical reason and let her in the door.  

[poppyfields]

23 minutes ago, preraph said:

Presumably, the women really ARE independent.  But that's beside the point, because except for on here, where we talk about these things, I don't know any women who go around telling their dates how independent they are.  

Spot on, course we don't.  It doesn't take long for most men to figure it out, and it's subtle.

@cookie, yeah I figured out why I was attracting controlling men and realized my initial vibe/energy was way too soft.

Didnt help that I'm very soft-spoken, easy going, agreeable, typically feminine.

Some men saw that as weak, easily manipulated, so they pounced.

Didn't take em long to realize the original image they had of me was not what they had imagined and that's when problems started arising.

Since realizing this about myself, with the help from therapist and a couple of good friends, I try to be more REAL from the get go, and it's helped a lot in attracting the right men for me, including my current bf. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[Emilie Jolie]

1 hour ago, Cookiesandough said:

Topics like "all men/women are like this" always start tha because one person has made a generalization about people that other people want to defend and on and on and on. 

Possibly. A few probing questions can help get past the generalisation to try and figure out what hides behind it. I'm not even a feminist and I get beyond frustrated at the negative narrative that often comes with being accomplished or independent. Single women of a certain generation (say 38+) get a lot of flak for their status, double trouble when they've done well. I totally get the frustrations and the worries about settling down etc. Society is not kind to single women past a certain point.

 

Quote

I have never once met a man intimidated by my education or the fact I have a life going on my own, but I'm sure some exist. 

They do exist. I don't know if it's down to insecurities or bitterness or social conditioning, but they exist. Could be a generational thing, too. But when you're in a bit of a bad place, it's not always easy to focus on the glass half full. There are good men, though, and single ones. I hope it works out for Hopeful30.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[SumGuy]

19 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Since realizing this about myself, with the help from therapist and a couple of good friends, I try to be more REAL from the get go, and it's helped a lot in attracting the right men for me, including my current bf. 

That is great to hear! 

I can think of at least one dating advice for accomplished women site that counsels the opposite, and it frustrated me when I was disbelieved that you don't need to act deferential, stroke his ego, etc. basically hide your accomplished smart self to attract a quality man and in fact if you do hide that independent part of your self you could well attract what you don't want.

Edited April 14, 2020 by SumGuy

[preraph]

Referring to Emily's post up past SumGuy's, I think it's down to wanting to keep women in a subservient position to them for a myriad of reasons, so they can feel superior and also so they feel they have more control over any number of facets of the relationship.  They're not all evil.  They may simply be immature and too insecure to take on a confident woman.  They may feel they have no value to such a woman, nothing to offer.  Like one guy old friend of mine made decent money but wasn't attractive or confident, and he made much of small details such as "I like girls who drive old junkers because then they'll be impressed that I drive a nice car."  He would look for anything at all to leverage to get a woman.  He wasn't evil.  After all those single years of him surveilling women enough to work up the nerve to talk to one and conniving and going by their retail places of work, when he finally did meet THE woman, he had no part in it.  At a dance, he was fixated on his obsession of the moment and another asked him to dance, and he just waved her off, really.  But she didn't take no for an answer and married him.  All those years of plotting and planning like Wiley Coyote were for naught.  

 

But they also may be resentful and entitled and basically mad at women for all practical purposes and bad news.  Or something in between.  I just advise both men and women not to take on "projects."

Edited April 14, 2020 by preraph

[Cookiesandough]

54 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Possibly. A few probing questions can help get past the generalisation to try and figure out what hides behind it. I'm not even a feminist and I get beyond frustrated at the negative narrative that often comes with being accomplished or independent. Single women of a certain generation (say 38+) get a lot of flak for their status, double trouble when they've done well. I totally get the frustrations and the worries about settling down etc. Society is not kind to single women past a certain point.

 

They do exist. I don't know if it's down to insecurities or bitterness or social conditioning, but they exist. Could be a generational thing, too. But when you're in a bit of a bad place, it's not always easy to focus on the glass half full. There are good men, though, and single ones. I hope it works out for Hopeful30.

Interesting. In what ways do you see society is not kind to single older women? I'm not here to discount or marginalize anyone's experience and I am not quite to that age, but I can't say the people that I know around me have echoed that experience. The older single women I know seem to have few regrets and overall seem ery content and happy with where they were at and how they are treated. I had two great aunts on my dad's side who lived together and never married. I guess in their time (the 1950, 60s) they might be called "old maids" or "spinsters" but they always seemed very happy, but you even rarely hear that anymore.  Besides a couple pejorative terms to describe single older women, I guess I've never experienced that. What I do see a lot is these women themselves not wanting to be single and become somewhat hyper sensitive about it. 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[SumGuy]

10 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

As a guy, I generally find the "I don't need a man" type of woman to be very off putting. In fact, any woman that describes herself as independent usually just turns me off. Her independence does not, but her need to tell everyone how independent she is, does. I just avoid those types....

Won't go back over the whole, negative assumptions imported into the "I don't need a man" statement, or the assumptions that go into making it the label for a type...a negative type at that.  Need is not the same as want, I would much rather have a woman want me than need me.

What you describe is not the same thing as a woman being independent.   Crowing about a character trait and having the good version of it are very different things, in fact they are often negatively correlated.   Kind of like I think thou doth protest too much.   

If you are saying that braggarts are a turn off, I agree.

However, it seems that even a single statement about being independent is too much for some, it is never seen in a positive light no matter the context; which makes me wonder is it just because of the gender of the speaker or the hearer.

[Cookiesandough]

1 hour ago, Emilie Jolie said:

 

 

They do exist. I don't know if it's down to insecurities or bitterness or social conditioning, but they exist. Could be a generational thing, too. But when you're in a bit of a bad place, it's not always easy to focus on the glass half full. There are good men, though, and single ones. I hope it works out for Hopeful30.

Also, how do you know that they are rejecting this woman due to her independence and confidence itself and not something else? I think sometimes even the men may not know. Like maybe she doesn't ask for help or she is too busy for them? Not all independent/confident women manifest the traits in the same way. It's hard to pin point. A lot of successful, independent women do not put enough thought into other aspects of themselves that most men prioritize and think that they aren't having luck with dating because of their success. No. It's like a niceguy working so hard to butter up a woman in lieu  of considering other things women want in a romantic partner just being a nice person, and then blame their failures on their kindness. Twisted thinking.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[poppyfields]

43 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

In fact, any woman that describes herself as independent usually just turns me off. Her independence does not, but her need to tell everyone how independent she is, does. I just avoid those types. But then, maybe some other guy eats that stuff up. 

Jeez, I don't know any woman who runs about announcing to everyone she's independent.  Who are these women?  

I think it would be a turn for "anyone" to run about telling everyone they were anything!  

That's just obnoxious behaviour no matter what they're going on about.

I'm curious though enigma, say you were chatting with a lovely woman, getting to know each other and in describing herself, she told you she was independent. 

Lived alone, had a career, her own home, made a good salary, those things that would warrant the independent label.

How in your opinion should she describe herself, other than saying she's independent?

Is there a better way of describing herself that wouldn't put men such as yourself off?

Again, just curious.  

 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[Cookiesandough]

4 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

...

Lived alone, had a career, her own home, made a good salary, those things that would warrant the independent label.

How in your opinuion should she describe herself, other than saying she's independent?

 

 

 

You didn't ask me, but why does she need to label herself at all in that case? Maybe in a different era that sort of 'independence' would be something of note, but these days, that's just being a self-sufficient human being. It's like the bare minimum one can expect, why does she need to tell someone this? 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[Woggle]

If she said she was independent then fine. Both men and women need to get a sixth sense about people in dating because what they do and their demeanor actually matter more than what they say. Misandrist women just have this demeanor about them that comes out without them saying a word. I can't describe but I know when I see it and yes misandrists date men just like misogynists date women. There are women who post men are trash stuff on social media everyday and are in relationships with men. A woman who simply stands on her own two feet like any adult should is not a turnoff. It is her mentality towards male/female relationships that is the true sign.

[preraph]

49 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

As a guy, I generally find the "I don't need a man" type of woman to be very off putting. In fact, any woman that describes herself as independent usually just turns me off. Her independence does not, but her need to tell everyone how independent she is, does. I just avoid those types. But then, maybe some other guy eats that stuff up. 

Yeah, but what if it's the guy that is bringing it up?  Then the woman gets penalized by being honest.  That is what happened to me.  I certainly never would have brought it up.  

 

But yeah, same as if it's a guy who just comes right out of the box putting down women.  Except that not needing a woman or man really isn't the same as saying you don't like them.  I think people ought to be able to not "need" a man or woman.  I think it's a lot more flattering if they just want one than "need" one.  

Edited April 14, 2020 by preraph

[Interstellar]

15 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Also, how do you know that they are rejecting this woman due to her independence and confidence itself and not something else? I think sometimes even the men may not know. Like maybe she doesn't ask for help or she is too busy for them? Not all independent/confident women manifest the traits in the same way. It's hard to pin point. A lot of successful, independent women do not put enough thought into other aspects of themselves that most men prioritize and think that they aren't having luck with dating because of their success. No. It's like a niceguy working so hard to butter up a woman in lieu  of considering other things women want in a romantic partner just being a nice person, and then blame their failures on their kindness. Twisted thinking.

You brought up a really good point. It could be a multitude of reasons a guy would reject an independent and confident woman. The thing with guys is they don’t really talk about it, or confide to their buddies. Unless there’s nothing else to talk about.

Quote

A lot of successful, independent women do not put enough thought into other aspects of themselves that most men prioritize and think that they aren't having luck with dating because of their success. No. It's like a niceguy working so hard to butter up a woman in lieu  of considering other things women want in a romantic partner just being a nice person, and then blame their failures on their kindness.

Well said.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Interstellar

[Emilie Jolie]

28 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Interesting. In what ways do you see society is not kind to single older women? I'm not here to discount or marginalize anyone's experience and I am not quite to that age, but I can't say from the people that I know around me have echoed that experience. The older single women I know seem to have few regrets and overall seem ery content and happy with where they were at and how they are treated. I had two great aunts on my dad's side who lived together and never married. I guess in their time (the 1950, 60s) they might be called "old maids" or "spinsters" but they always seemed very happy.  Besides a couple pejorative terms to describe single older women, I guess I've never experienced that. What I do see a lot is these women themselves not wanting to be single and become somewhat hyper sensitive about it. 

 

I too know contented single women, but it's not about how they view themselves. There are well documented negative social stereotypes afflicting single child free women. There is plenty of research done on how older single are stigmatised, viewed as 'frigid', asocial, closeted gay, asexual, masculine, not real women because they don't want to or can't have children. This won't be affecting younger generations of women hopefully, but the stigma is real.

[preraph]

51 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Interesting. In what ways do you see society is not kind to single older women? I'm not here to discount or marginalize anyone's experience and I am not quite to that age, but I can't say the people that I know around me have echoed that experience. The older single women I know seem to have few regrets and overall seem ery content and happy with where they were at and how they are treated. I had two great aunts on my dad's side who lived together and never married. I guess in their time (the 1950, 60s) they might be called "old maids" or "spinsters" but they always seemed very happy, but you even rarely hear that anymore.  Besides a couple pejorative terms to describe single older women, I guess I've never experienced that. What I do see a lot is these women themselves not wanting to be single and become somewhat hyper sensitive about it. 

 

Speaking as one, any derision I've had isn't because of being single, but of not having kids.  The attitude you're selfish if you don't have kids.  

[poppyfields]

14 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

You didn't ask me, but why does she need to label herself at all in that case? Maybe in a different era that sort of 'independence' would be something of note, but these days, that's just being a self-sufficient human being. It's like the bare minimum one can expect, why does she need to tell someone this? 

Yeah self sufficient is  probably a better way of describing herself, thnx for answering cookie.

To clarify, I hate labels and refuse to label myself as anything.  It all eventually comes out during the getting to know you phase anyway except for discussions about salary (mine or his).  It's none of his (or my) business until such time we talk marriage, if that ever happens.

But at the same time, I really see nothing offputting about a woman telling a man she is independent either. 

I suppose if a man had some preconceived notion about what being an independent woman means, such as "not needing a man" which is just SO not true, it may make sense that he's off put by it, but other than that, I just don't get why it's such a turn off for many men.

Edited April 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[Woggle]

Male bashers who think men are useless and obsolete are the ones who helped give stigma to that word. 

[Emilie Jolie]

17 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

Also, how do you know that they are rejecting this woman due to her independence and confidence itself and not something else? I think sometimes even the men may not know. Like maybe she doesn't ask for help or she is too busy for them? Not all independent/confident women manifest the traits in the same way. It's hard to pin point. A lot of successful, independent women do not put enough thought into other aspects of themselves that most men prioritize and think that they aren't having luck with dating because of their success. No. It's like a niceguy working so hard to butter up a woman in lieu  of considering other things women want in a romantic partner just being a nice person, and then blame their failures on their kindness. Twisted thinking.

I'm not saying that. People are attracted to whoever they are attracted to, there are no rights or wrongs. I'm talking about social perceptions, not individual cases.

[poppyfields]

4 minutes ago, Woggle said:

Male bashers who think men are useless and obsolete are the ones who helped give stigma to that word. 

Hard core feminists? 

[Woggle]

2 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Hard core feminists? 

Feminism is about equality but that is another word the misandrists hijacked.

[poppyfields]

@enigma, oh good I'm doing it right then.  lol  .  See my response to cookie, I haven't been inclined to describe myself as anything and simply let it all come out gradually.

I just thought of something too though, with some men having a fear of gold diggers, wouldn't they welcome knowing a woman is independent?

It's all so confusing, I'm glad I'm currently in a relationship!!