Scientific Dictatorship

[elaine567]

Fauci - leading infectious disease expert in America who butted heads with Trump over Coronavirus.

Fauci on Trump's delayed response to coronavirus: "It is what it is"

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by elaine567

[SumGuy]

I’m one all for the more old fashioned charismatic dictatorship and supporting kleptocracy, you know like Russia.  

Yes first we must silence the intelligencia, then get the people to listen to only us.  The Soviet’s and China did it all wrong, don’t force ‘em con them.

We must never forget that transparency, facts and an unflinching fear of being challenged are only the allies of truth, fairness and justice.  Tough questions can never be allowed, transparency into how money is made and spent (especially public money) can never ever be permitted...because then the jig is up.    

Of course we tell them we are doing it for them, the little guys and gals...as we place them deeper into debt to fund our gravy train.  

[endlessabyss]

5 hours ago, Tamfana said:

Science isn't really an institution so much as a method of analysis, the scientific process, which relies upon data and evidence to draw conclusions.  That process plus review are the basis for much of human advancement. 

Neither Fauci nor Gates have decision-making power but Trump and his team do, plus Trump gets intelligence briefings, plus more and quicker information than either Gates or Fauci would- heck even more than Congress does since Trump blocks briefings now that he's shattered checks and balances. Congrats, Trump fans. Eliminating checks and balances has handed Trump unprecedented power but now he doesn't want it because with power comes responsibility/duty and accountability. He told us, he doesn't take responsibility for screwing up.  boo hoo.  

So no, Gates and Fauci aren't nuts and they both have expertise in certain areas.  Expertise is a threat to some, to people who do not want reason and logic to guide society, and to liars and scammers.  

Each time Trump screws up in a major way, the Trump Train scrambles to hide the evidence under a claim of absolute power, and to find others to blame, kind as a bone for his followers to on while he lies and hides evidence.  After four years of this same play over and over, few fall for it anymore.  Many find it pathetic and embarrassing that a president of the United States acts so weak and childish.  

No, Gates and Fauci aren't the problem Trump and his Fox liars are. Internal communications are coming out now.  Trump better dig up more outsiders to blame!  lol

They tried the "but I was being impeached" excuse but that deflated quickly since the only real fight in impeachment was Trump's concealing evidence, his obstruction.  In other words, he did nothing during impeachment so it wasn't a distraction!  He didn't produce docs, wasn't interviewed, didn't testify.  The dummies running his campaign THEN figured out that highlighting Trump obstruction would backfire.  ha!  Such tangled webs he weaves.  

As Bannon said, the strategy is to "flood the zone with "crap." That's all Trump's doing.  

 

 

Science actually is an institution.  It has vast implications on public policy, culture, and human behavior.

Second, Fauci does have decision making power, so does Birx.  To deny this is absurd.  Yes, Trump announces final decisions to the public, but he is currently a puppet having his strings pulled by the so-called "experts".  Trump wanted to economy to remain open to protect his chances of re-election via the stock market; the health "experts" drove him to make the decision to lock the country down and engender what will be the Great Depression 2.0.

You think Covid-19 is bad? lol  You have no clue what you are in for in the months and years ahead.  The financial bubbles that have just been popped are going to nuke this country to pieces.  The amount of suffering that is about to occur, very shortly, is something you'd never be able to fathom in your wildest dreams.  

Yes, Fauci and Gates are huge problems.  They may be held with high esteem in the niche they belong too, but whatever ideas they wish to impose on society should not be tolerated in the least.  Constitutional rights are not be suspended due to the wealthy and  so-called "intelligentsia's" contributions to executive decision making.

As for the rantings about impeachment - that is way off topic, and should be discussed in another thread if you need to continue to get that off your chest.

[Tamfana]

1 hour ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Watch and draw your own conclusions...I know that the "denominator" for this virus is absolutely enormous...Meaning the people that had it and survived it(or maybe they didn't know it) aren't being accounted for...I think people believe that everyone that gets it will be hospitalized and at the brink of death...NOT the case...I have often observed that the way American's pop pills, its a natural for the immune system to be compromised..  And I have people in my own family that are absolutely paralyzed with fear over this virus...

I heard recently of the story of a former NFL lineman that came down with CV-19...He required hospitalization, while his wife, who also tested positive...had little to no symptoms...Oh,,,and btw, he actually received the controversial and panned  hydroxychloroquine protocol and was released from ICU the next day..

So maybe what this guy is saying is in fact true, but the need to protect the immune compromised is a greater need right now....I get that completely...But the fact remains, the full faith that many people put in the medical profession and its protocols,  may need to be looked at, rather than always taken as gospel...

TFY

Check out that guy's credibility.  Not good.  History of false claims.  Also, he's running for office right now.  Eh.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Tamfana

[NuevoYorko]

It will be a sad day when those of you who are not "science guys" are in charge of what happens to the rest of us.

You don't believe in science and you feel that your "right" to your "personal freedoms" supersede my "right" to avoid contagion by you folks 

I disagree with that.   

Interestingly, the most vocal "science deniers" still seem to have no problem driving cars or using a leaf blower,  or going to the hospital for an appendectomy.  Some of you even have used pregnancy tests or ... electricity.    It seems that you only draw the line when scientific reality stands in your way of doing exactly what you want to do at any given moment even when that will be at significant negative affect to other people.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by NuevoYorko

[thefooloftheyear]

4 minutes ago, Tamfana said:

Check out that guy's credibility.  Not good.  History of false claims.  Also, he's running for office right now.  Eh.

So you disbelieve everything he's saying in that piece?

I never heard of him, but I do absolutely concur with the fact that there is a definitive narrative being brought forward by the mainstream media, and it worked in manipulating a large segment of the population...

Like stated in previous post, maybe its a plan to protect those people from their own poor decisions and stupidity...Just like when the Surgeon General dared to call out his own people for poor choices in personal health decisions(leading to a disproportionate death rate vs whites)...He got hatcheted as a racist...

The joke now is how fat and drunk people are getting while on quarantine...Crazy....

TFY

[endlessabyss]

3 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

It will be a sad day when those of you who are not "science guys" are in charge of what happens to the rest of us.

You don't believe in science and you feel that your "right" to your "personal freedoms" supersede my "right" to avoid contagion by you folks 

I disagree with that.   

Interestingly, the most vocal "science deniers" still seem to have no problem driving cars or using a leaf blower,  or going to the hospital for an appendectomy.  Some of you even have used pregnancy tests or ... electricity.    It seems that you only draw the line when scientific reality stands in your way of doing exactly what you want to do at any given moment even when that will be at significant negative affect to other people.

 

 

Sorry.  Your fear shouldn't infringe on my liberties in this scenario.

[lana-banana]

Nothing like the liberty to die of highly communicable diseases, or to transmit those diseases to the immunocompromised! The best kind of freedom is the kind that kills your grandma or people with chemo. Screw "social responsibility" or "the greater god" or even "sparing a single solitary thought for someone who isn't me" --- my freedom to endanger and kill comes first! Hell yeah!

[NuevoYorko]

20 minutes ago, endlessabyss said:

Sorry.  Your fear shouldn't infringe on my liberties in this scenario.

I'm not scared.  I prefer to avail myself of many scientific advancements, in all areas of my life.  Generally, I'm a fan of facts. 

You, on the other hand, are using an electronic devise that is accessing a thing called THE INTERNET to express your outrage against SCIENCE and, specifically, Bill Gates.   It's probable that Bill Gates and his success in bringing (scientific) technology to "the masses" has some measure of responsibility for your ability to do this - very direct responsibility if you're using an Android platform, or anything Linux and of course, Microsoft.    🤣

 

 

 

[Piddy]

Gates warned of this a few years ago.  I like that he takes an interest in such things.  Hell even George W. Bush warned of this back in 2005.  And Dr. Fauci is a world renowned leading expert on infectious disease. 

 Bush gave him the Medal of Freedom award for his HIV/ AIDS research and treatment in 2008.  He and Dr. Birx are doing a great job considering what they have to put up with. 

And another thing. China needs to shut down the wet markets.  This is where many of these infectious diseases originate.  Why they allow them is a mystery to me.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Piddy

[major_merrick]

Science is nice.  I like science.  I made my career in a "lower end" STEM field.  I like playing with computers for fun and profit.  But science has overall become a monolithic establishment due to over-reliance on funding from governments and big donors.  Politics has infected science.  Science is not impartial, and the views of the movers and shakers in those fields are decidedly pro-leftist and anti-liberty.  When people who are good in their fields want to branch out and try to dictate how the rest of us should live, we all ought to have a problem with that.  Liberty is paramount - above security, above health, and everything else.  

According to leftist logic, all people who are unvaccinated and all people who refuse to stay in their houses because some doctor says so are automatically guilty of infecting others and being killers.  If I used similar logic, I can say that all people who promote mandatory vaccination and submission to the will of Big Pharma should be considered guilty of crimes against humanity (like Japan's Unit 731 in WWII).  Assuming someone's guilt without proof and punishing for acts that haven't even been committed....these things do not yield a just society.  The left claims to love justice and responsibility, yet their beliefs resemble Mao, Lenin, and Castro.  And to that garbage, I have to say "better dead than Red." 

 

[Tamfana]

2 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

So you disbelieve everything he's saying in that piece?  Doesn't matter.  That's the point.  

I never heard of him, but I do absolutely concur with the fact- facts exist whether anyone agrees or concurs.  One agrees with conclusions or opinions, not facts.   

that there is a definitive narrative being brought forward by the mainstream media

(1) That's that Bannon catchall- "them," THE MEDIA, the boogie man, don't believe ANYTHING bad about me! they're commies!) , but not Fox and Breitbart media. Trump tells you "the media" lies, makes "fake news" so that you won't accept the reporting on him. BS. 

(2) the narrative being reported is news, information, not a "narrative" to the extent that implies a made-up or twisted story.  It isn't twisted.   

and it worked in manipulating a large segment of the population...

Like stated in previous post, maybe its a plan to protect those people from their own poor decisions and stupidity...Just like when the Surgeon General dared to call out his own people for poor choices in personal health decisions(leading to a disproportionate death rate vs whites)...He got hatcheted as a racist...

The joke now is how fat and drunk people are getting while on quarantine...Crazy....

TFY

Social distancing, test and trace are standard for pandemics.  By mid-Feb and certainly by early March, when it was clear Trump was going to screw it up and get people killed, I think people just started isolating on their own.  That's also what will happen if Trump directs people to return to normal activity without widespread testing and tracing underway first.  

Edited April 12, 2020 by Tamfana

[Juha]

I was going to post in this thread but after reading it decided not to as it is much too political to be bothered with.

 

Hardcore political extremists ruin everything they touch on both sides. 

There is no sharing of info or debate to be had with those type of people involved.

 

I hope all of you are staying safe and sane

[lana-banana]

14 hours ago, major_merrick said:

Liberty is paramount - above security, above health, and everything else

Insanity. What freedoms do you even have if you're not healthy or safe? We have known conservatism is a death cult ever since they stubbornly refused to do anything about mass shootings or stop the death penalty, but this whole "people should die for my conveniences" thing is next-level.

[thefooloftheyear]

37 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

Insanity. What freedoms do you even have if you're not healthy or safe? We have known conservatism is a death cult ever since they stubbornly refused to do anything about mass shootings or stop the death penalty, but this whole "people should die for my conveniences" thing is next-level.

To be fair, most liberals like to carry the "believe in science above all else" banner when it pertains to these types of events and other environmental issues(which I tend to agree with, btw), but then completely discount science when trying to justify abortion...

And yep, if you want to characterize conservatism as a "death cult" and their philosophy as , "people should die for my convenience"(which I don't agree with),  then it's really demonstrating how hypocritical that characterization really is...when you stop to think about it.....

I'm not taking any side here, just pointing out the flawed logic/reasoning and selective nature of how they apply this philosophy..

TFY

[nittygritty]

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

Insanity. What freedoms do you even have if you're not healthy or safe? We have known conservatism is a death cult ever since they stubbornly refused to do anything about mass shootings or stop the death penalty, but this whole "people should die for my conveniences" thing is next-level.

There has never been a POTUS in my lifetime that has followed medical advice to shutdown most of the country and taken such extraordinary measures to try to prevent the spread of a deadly virus, even for a day, to try to save lives as President Trump has and yet liberals are still griping that it is not enough!  Unbelievable! 

[lana-banana]

18 minutes ago, nittygritty said:

There has never been a POTUS in my lifetime that has followed medical advice to shutdown most of the country and taken such extraordinary measures to try to prevent the spread of a deadly virus, even for a day, to try to save lives as President Trump has and yet liberals are still griping that it is not enough!  Unbelievable! 

He hasn't done jack, and there has -been- no federal response. He was calling the virus a hoax and a joke for months and has left governors to fend for themselves. He's given no guidance, issued no policies, and done nothing except push to reopen the country as soon as possible. He even said he thought the virus should "wash over" the country (from this weekend's Washington Post feature)! Even now he's refusing to coordinate a federal response that gets critical gear into the hands that need them most. Everything we've achieved has been in spite of him, not because of him.

PS - I'm not a liberal, don't be insulting.

[carhill]

One good example of thousands out there was the Brighton, CO husband and father who was playing T-ball with his wife and young daughter at a local park, following the posted social distancing and group gathering guidelines, and was handcuffed and detained for not providing Brighton cops with ID when they detained him. He was stuck in the police cruiser and later released. Turned out he was a former Colorado state trooper and ultimately the police department issued a public apology to him. All that over 'guidelines' based on 'science' which he followed to the letter. That's what power does. The guidelines came from state and local authorities.

If one wishes to examine scientific dictatorship in another venue, merely travel to the state of Michigan. It's alive and well there and in the news a lot lately. 👍

[gaius]

If I was president I would shut down both international and interstate travel. Everyone stays in their own state or whatever state they're in for about a month or two. The only thing that crosses state lines are approved medical personnel, law enforcement/ military and 18 wheelers. 

Then after you get a better idea of where the infection is you start opening up the less affected areas and fully quarantining the outbreaks. The way the doctors and Trump are letting anyone travel wherever they want is guaranteeing this thing is going to drag on way longer then it has to.

And yeah I love civil liberties too, but they go out the window in a public health emergency.

[carhill]

IIUC, unless .fed institutes martial law, states rights in CONUS dictate states are the final authority on what goes on within their borders. Restraint on interstate travel can be tricky. I believe Utah is testing mandatory quarantine registration for out of state travelers crossing their border, though haven't kept up with how that's working out. No doubt lots of ominous looking .mils with guns would keep most people at bay but then the ex-mils and militias would fire up and we'd likely have a war on our hands. If martial law was instituted at the federal level under color of science/disease, I'd be more likely to view things as a dictatorship. As is, state and local politicians and sheriffs are floating dictator-style balloons to test citizen response. So far, little violence. That could change in a flash though. Fortunately, those armed to prosecute it are also those well-prepped to weather the realities of shelter in place and association guidelines. They're prepared and confident, no matter which way things go. Hope for the best and plan for the rest 👍

[central]

IMO, anyone who dismisses science or is anti-science is either ignorant, willfully ignorant, or worse. Politics is political, and while science can be politicized, the process of evidence, reproducibility of results, peer review, and checks and balances make it by FAR the most reliable approach to creating knowledge and solving problems. Yes, sometimes the best advice from scientists must be balanced against other priorities and liberty. However, your liberties and rights end when they infringes on my rights and endangers me because you hold ignorant beliefs and act on them.

[central]

3 hours ago, nittygritty said:

There has never been a POTUS in my lifetime that has followed medical advice to shutdown most of the country and taken such extraordinary measures to try to prevent the spread of a deadly virus, even for a day, to try to save lives as President Trump has and yet liberals are still griping that it is not enough!  Unbelievable! 

His response initially was to minimize the problem and delay effective measures. States that acted early and dramatically have the lowest infection and death rates (WA, OR, CA). The situation is far worse than it needed to be had Trump followed the advice of infectious disease specialists who HAD informed him of the dangers. Now he's politicizing who gets resources and ventilators based on how "appreciative" governors are towards him! Yes, he finally took action when it was clear there was no alternative. Yet now he wants to prematurely end distancing and quarantine measures, and if he does, that will lead for far more infections and deaths and harm the economy even more than keeping preventive measures in place a few more weeks.

And there has never been a POTUS faced with a crisis of this magnitude. I will grant that the lack of precedents has hampered a quick and effective response nationally, yet we still have the examples of how other countries have fared in their responses, both good and bad - and prior to the virus gaining such a strong presence here.

[nittygritty]

38 minutes ago, central said:

His response initially was to minimize the problem and delay effective measures. States that acted early and dramatically have the lowest infection and death rates (WA, OR, CA). The situation is far worse than it needed to be had Trump followed the advice of infectious disease specialists who HAD informed him of the dangers. Now he's politicizing who gets resources and ventilators based on how "appreciative" governors are towards him! Yes, he finally took action when it was clear there was no alternative. Yet now he wants to prematurely end distancing and quarantine measures, and if he does, that will lead for far more infections and deaths and harm the economy even more than keeping preventive measures in place a few more weeks.

And there has never been a POTUS faced with a crisis of this magnitude. I will grant that the lack of precedents has hampered a quick and effective response nationally, yet we still have the examples of how other countries have fared in their responses, both good and bad - and prior to the virus gaining such a strong presence here.

In January 2020 travel bans and 14 day quarantines were implemented to those that had traveled to China and other effected countries. The CDC issued recommendations and the White House issued guidelines to State Governors and local governments March 16th.  March 17th was when it went into effect in my city and state based on those guidelines.

[thefooloftheyear]

18 minutes ago, central said:

IMO, anyone who dismisses science or is anti-science is either ignorant, willfully ignorant, or worse. 

Back when I was around 18, a highly recommended physician,  with decades of experience in the field of endocrinology,  recommended a procedure which would have killed off my thyroid gland for life...I refused...within a year, all the symptoms reversed and I haven't had a thyroid condition since then...Subsequent doctors said I did the right thing and he was wrong to recommend that type of permanent  procedure...It wasn't incompetence, just that the protocol for that condition was no longer recommended...I guess I was just fortunate to have gone with my gut...You remember when all the 'experts" were telling us that eating eggs or red meat was a death sentence before 50 from arterial plaques and subsequent heart failure?   Not hearing that too much anymore...I could go on, but its not necessary....

I will agree with you  in the sense that some people that just totally dismiss science or believe that its "all in God's hands" or whatever are wrong in their thinking....But many aspects of science has historically been misplaced/debunked,  or the thought process wound up being flawed or at the very least guilty of "the jury is out"...

So add that to the fact that many people just have a general distrust of governmental mandates/directives...then you have the pushback....I wont call those people ignorant or anti science,, just that they perhaps have the life experience to question certain aspects of it....

FTR, I'll admit that at the outset I didn't think it was going to be anything more than the swine flu, SARS, or ebola(not that those are a party, just that there wasn't the same reaction) and now have done exactly as instructed at the time it  was implemented.....That wont change.....

I do worry some about the fallout from it, though and what the end result will be....With an estimated 45K deaths a year of suicides from unemployment, coupled with the record amount of unemployed workers with no real answer for when things will get back on track, it will be interesting and perhaps sobering, when the stats from the fallout become apparent... saving lives is the end goal of these measures...Tough situation on all levels..

TFY

[Ellener]

5 hours ago, nittygritty said:

There has never been a POTUS in my lifetime

could just end that statement there.

All the presidents in my lifetime have been self-serving and/or corporate puppets.

Maybe it'll be like royalty, eventually just become a figurehead position to prevent misuse of power.