Scientific Dictatorship

[Ellener]

22 hours ago, Piddy said:

China needs to shut down the wet markets.  This is where many of these infectious diseases originate.  Why they allow them is a mystery to me.

because of anti-scientific beliefs in the medical properties of the animals raised there and people's inability to be swayed beyond their own beliefs and experiences and freedoms.

Ironic isn't it...

[Piddy]

2 hours ago, Ellener said:

because of anti-scientific beliefs in the medical properties of the animals raised there and people's inability to be swayed beyond their own beliefs and experiences and freedoms.

Ironic isn't it...

Yeah good point, except China is a dictatorship country and they could shut them down tomorrow if they wanted to.

I agree with Bill Maher.

"He concluded by calling on China to use its dictatorial powers to finally close its wet markets.”If the China military had purposely infected this country with a bioweapon, we’d be at war with them. This one hurt our economy a little more than the currency manipulation.”

Edited April 13, 2020 by Piddy

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Piddy said:

Yeah good point, except China is a dictatorship country and they could shut them down tomorrow if they wanted to.

I agree with Bill Maher.

"He concluded by calling on China to use its dictatorial powers to finally close its wet markets.”If the China military had purposely infected this country with a bioweapon, we’d be at war with them. This one hurt our economy a little more than the currency manipulation.”

people seize on what freedoms they can in a dictatorship I guess, but yes, animal rights activists have been calling on stopping the illegal wildlife trade in 'exotic' meats and medicines for years.

Ebola and H7N7 should have been a warning to the world but that's easy to say now.

 

[carhill]

There's an apartment complex, I believe county housing, in Wise County, town of Appalachia, VA, that was locked down due to a number of residents apparently testing positive, although I see no evidence of the county reporting positive cases, at all, from my sources. Police have restricted access in and out and uninfected residents are unable to leave, or so it is reported, and no one can enter. It appears since some are positive it is presumed all are exposed and presumed really or potentially positive. There ya go. If any members live in shared housing this could be you. BTW, the town of Appalachia had a population of under 2000 last census. This is rural, really rural, Virginia.

[gaius]

7 hours ago, carhill said:

IIUC, unless .fed institutes martial law, states rights in CONUS dictate states are the final authority on what goes on within their borders. Restraint on interstate travel can be tricky. I believe Utah is testing mandatory quarantine registration for out of state travelers crossing their border, though haven't kept up with how that's working out. No doubt lots of ominous looking .mils with guns would keep most people at bay but then the ex-mils and militias would fire up and we'd likely have a war on our hands. If martial law was instituted at the federal level under color of science/disease, I'd be more likely to view things as a dictatorship. As is, state and local politicians and sheriffs are floating dictator-style balloons to test citizen response. So far, little violence. That could change in a flash though. Fortunately, those armed to prosecute it are also those well-prepped to weather the realities of shelter in place and association guidelines. They're prepared and confident, no matter which way things go. Hope for the best and plan for the rest 👍

If there's a good case to be made that putting a temporary pause on interstate travel would be highly beneficial to containing the virus then it could survive a court challenge. Which there is when you look at what China did vs what we did and the end result. 

I think the vast majority of people would prefer a strong hand that solves the problem in 3 months vs a bunch of half assed nonsense that keeps it going for a year or more.

If a few rag tag militias want to start the second American revolution to protect their right to infect and get infected then they're not thinking straight and would not be on the right side of history.

[gaius]

2 hours ago, Piddy said:

Yeah good point, except China is a dictatorship country and they could shut them down tomorrow if they wanted to.

I agree with Bill Maher.

"He concluded by calling on China to use its dictatorial powers to finally close its wet markets.”If the China military had purposely infected this country with a bioweapon, we’d be at war with them. This one hurt our economy a little more than the currency manipulation.”

China has so far been unable to track down patient zero. Most of the early cases have some connection to the Wuhan market but others don't. So there's no conclusive evidence that the practices at the market caused anything.

I know a lot of liberals have been critical of the dog roasting, inhumane markets even before this happened. As they should be. But it's likely that even if they operated in a more hygienic and humane way the virus still would have found a way to jump to humans at some point. It's just that nasty a bug.

Focusing on the markets causes attention to drift from the real mistakes we've made. It's not a root cause of the problem.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, gaius said:

It's not a root cause of the problem.

There is no root cause of the problem, it's one of those 'perfect storm' situations. 

If HN7N or Ebola were highly contagious we would have been dealing with this sooner.

And they were also linked to the trade in 'exotic' animals for consumption/medicine.

[basil67]

6 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

But many aspects of science has historically been misplaced/debunked,  or the thought process wound up being flawed or at the very least guilty of "the jury is out"...

 

And after all, this is the definition of science.  A theory stands until it can be reputably disproved.  

[major_merrick]

12 hours ago, lana-banana said:

Insanity. What freedoms do you even have if you're not healthy or safe? We have known conservatism is a death cult ever since they stubbornly refused to do anything about mass shootings or stop the death penalty, but this whole "people should die for my conveniences" thing is next-level.

Without liberty, life is not WORTH living.  The leftist "utopia" is insanity to the rest of us.  Like, we'd rather slit our wrists or join Al Qaeda's flight school than deal with the "reasonable measures" you want to put up with!  Nothing about this is reasonable, and I''m shocked at how many people are just going along with this like it is normal.

The whole idea of public health is really just another method of control, and this made-up virus crisis is an excuse to lock everybody up and start demanding papers.  This nation is rapidly turning into something that resembles the Soviet Union.  And my ancestors didn't escape that hellhole just so I can put up with it here.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by major_merrick

[endlessabyss]

1 hour ago, major_merrick said:

Without liberty, life is not WORTH living.  The leftist "utopia" is insanity to the rest of us.  Like, we'd rather slit our wrists or join Al Qaeda's flight school than deal with the "reasonable measures" you want to put up with!  Nothing about this is reasonable, and I''m shocked at how many people are just going along with this like it is normal.

The whole idea of public health is really just another method of control, and this made-up virus crisis is an excuse to lock everybody up and start demanding papers.  This nation is rapidly turning into something that resembles the Soviet Union.  And my ancestors didn't escape that hellhole just so I can put up with it here.

 

I loved the whole "conservatism is a death cult" line when the left advocates for no restrictions on abortions and other Malthusian methods to save the planet from "anthropomorphic" climate change LOL.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[major_merrick]

@endlessabyss  I find threads like these inspirational.  When all the anti-liberty types come out and do what they do, it gives me the motivation I need to keep preparing for the inevitable collapse (or whatever it turns out to be.)  Some days it is tough to stay strong when you know there's a giant system that has been set up against you.  It takes a lot of energy to fight what feels like a losing battle.  But seeing the statements of the opposition renews my determination.

There is no convincing them, and they in turn cannot convince me to live in their ideal world.  As the two sides are not compatible, refer to the Civil War #2 thread....  This whole situation is merely a symptom, the virus itself is not the problem.

Edited April 13, 2020 by major_merrick

[gaius]

It's not really about whether you love or hate liberty. Whether you're a libertarian or a liberal. It's about coming to grips with the fact that people not moving, not traveling, and not having close contact with other people will allow us to overcome this situation a lot sooner. That less people will die. That our economy will be able to come back sooner. That we will all be better off in the long run.

Like the Bible says, to every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. Right now it's time to put civil rights aside temporarily for the greater good.

Edited April 14, 2020 by gaius

[major_merrick]

20 minutes ago, gaius said:

Right now it's time to put civil rights aside temporarily for the greater good.

If you can put aside rights for one thing, you'll put them aside for others.  And then, you'll turn around and realize that you don't have those rights anymore. 

We get our rights from God, not from Uncle Sam.  Every issue is ultimately about liberty, because liberty and life are perpetually intertwined.  Maintaining liberty is worth the risk, especially since the risk of this thing has been blown way out of proportion to begin with.  Which ought to tell people there is something else at work here, and the restrictions really aren't about health but about control - either permanent, or some kind of demented practice for worse things later on.

Edited April 14, 2020 by major_merrick

[Ellener]

Think I'll read some Ecclesiastes tonight @gaius Kohelet's journey to wisdom and understanding.

[gaius]

@major_merrick there's actually been a bunch of times in this country where we put liberties and civil rights aside to deal with a certain problem, the civil war for one, and never ended up losing them. It's not a use it or lose it type of thing.

It's not who we are to stick to one idealogy no matter what. To never compromise on how we do things. Even if it ends up greatly hurting us.

[mrs rubble]

4 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Think I'll read some Ecclesiastes tonight @gaius Kohelet's journey to wisdom and understanding.

I think there are a few people that could benefit from reading that. The ignorance out there is astounding.

If people wish to ignore the science, just take a look at the numbers, they speak for themselves, compare case no's and deaths here in NZ for example to those of Ireland, we have the same populations, but very different numbers and have had different approaches to this crisis.

[Ellener]

I know at least one https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52274969 @mrs rubble

[major_merrick]

@gaiusThe Civil War is called the "War of Northern Aggression" by many where I live.  That war set disastrous precedents in this nation regarding liberty, not to mention setting the stage for the introduction of the income tax.  Lincoln and his troops were war criminals, but that's another thread. 

@mrs rubbleUnfortunately, you can't believe the numbers.  I wish it was that simple.  For all the folks who claim to love science, we've sure got a ton of bad science floating around.  In many respects, we simply do not know the actual infection rate.  Those who have mild cases won't get tested and it won't get reported, so the death rate for average folks could be much lower than indicated.  And that's an honest error....there are plenty of outright lies being told by the powers that be. 

And when Fauci and his kind refuse to consider alternative treatments, and when pharmacists want to play god and refuse doctors' prescriptions when that isn't their job...the entire system is broken.  A time of crisis isn't a time for restricting treatment options...it is a time for "whatever it takes."  Throw it all in a direction and see if something sticks to the target.  But the kneejerk reaction of government is ALWAYS restriction, because that is what creates wealth for the few at the top. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by major_merrick

[mrs rubble]

@major_merrick Yes you can believe the numbers, people aren't coming back to life!! Yes there may be unknown cases out there, that's because of a lack of control over the situation in some countries and areas.

Here our cases are automatically reported to the national and international data bases, once a positive result goes in to the computer, it's reported and recorded. The contact tracing in NZ is excellent as we've been shut down since our numbers were tiny, 98% of our cases are linked to overseas travel, just 2% are through community transmission. All positive cases have had their contacts traced and tested. So although there may be the occasional case missed, by the time lockdown has finished they'd all be past the incubation and contagious stage.

[major_merrick]

IDK how it is where you are, but where I am people don't go to doctors for colds or the flu....which is how minor cases of this stuff appear.  It wastes time and costs too much.  My mother-in-law freaked out about the virus at first, and sent me a symptom comparison list trying to prove that the virus is somehow different from a bad flu.  Literally every symptom listed was something you can get from the flu, with the exception of shortness of breath.  So unless a person feels like an elephant is sitting on their chest, or they are experiencing unstoppable vomiting and diarrhea....most folks are going to deal with it at home.  And with the fear of quarantine, cost of medical care, and other issues, I know a lot of people who REALLY will avoid the doctors if at all possible, simply dealing with their days of misery at home. 

And now that lots of businesses are shut down and people aren't working?  Those who work in places where their boss might force them to go to a doctor now have nobody with leverage on them at this point....and financial incentive to avoid medical costs.  With that in mind, you might say that social distancing and shutdown could further reduce the accuracy of the numbers.

For a recent news article, Google "ABC news Covid sewage."  (I won't post the link because of the annoying delay.)  A town with 500 reported cases may have a whole lot more, based on analysis of virus in the sewer water.  In other words, massively under-reported in the US because most people are just fine after a few days. 

 

[thefooloftheyear]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

And after all, this is the definition of science.  A theory stands until it can be reputably disproved.  

Sure...I can relate..

But the cynicism and concern is starting to come to a head...The politicians are standing there, telling everyone what they should be doing, then they can go home, eat a nice dinner, check their bank balance and see that their government check was deposited and put their heads on the pillow...The majority of others are suffering losses daily with seemingly no(or at least a very vague) end in sight...and they aren't sleeping a wink....

IN my estimation, with each day that passes, the real threat to a devastating total economic collapse seems more plausible....At the very least its going to be cratered for the foreseeable future...For one, vast amounts of businesses wont be able to keep it going....and many if they can may not even want to(choosing to finally decide to fold up)….what some may not understand is that when a company(even a small one) decides to pack it in, then not only do the employees lose jobs, but everyone in the line gets dinged..And the fear they have invoked in people may make even seemingly mundane life events like going to a restaurant on a Saturday night a thing of the past...Who knows what is going to happen???

And they really should stop already with the "we are all in this together" crap..You have sports icons and Hollywood types, living in compounds that have all of the amenities anyone could want so staying home is like a holiday getaway resort,  telling the average shlub on the street that just got off the phone with his utility company to get a break on the electric bill...that they are in it together....its insulting, really...

I guess I am off topic, but the point is that I agree with you  in this case  letting the science dictate the course....But I can also see the side where people are perhaps thinking the baby is getting thrown out with the bathwater here..

TFY

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[Ellener]

@thefooloftheyear it is what it is.

The doctors have told us what to do here in the US, based on the best knowledge available. 

( I expect that will be the end of Fauci's career of advising politicians now he's at odds with Trump )

But yes, the cynicism is come to a head if we are really saying- let's choose between many more deaths or less profits.

Because the 'elephant in the room' on that would be- why are so many Americans a mere few days away from total financial meltdown so that business is more important than people?

Isn't that indicative that a political system is economically dysfunctional and needs to be changed?

[basil67]

7 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

IN my estimation, with each day that passes, the real threat to a devastating total economic collapse seems more plausible....At the very least its going to be cratered for the foreseeable future...For one, vast amounts of businesses wont be able to keep it going....and many if they can may not even want to(choosing to finally decide to fold up)….what some may not understand is that when a company(even a small one) decides to pack it in, then not only do the employees lose jobs, but everyone in the line gets dinged..And the fear they have invoked in people may make even seemingly mundane life events like going to a restaurant on a Saturday night a thing of the past...Who knows what is going to happen???

 

Yes, we are all looking at a depression the likes of which we haven't seen for nearly 100 years.   But what's the alternative?   Is huge amounts of death preferable to people losing businesses?   Is keeping business going worth the risk to the health of the front line workers?   What about hospitals being overwhelmed?  What about medical staff walking away from their jobs because working is too high risk?   

A politician who chooses business over people's lives is running is a pretty high political risk.  Will people be remembering the dead family member or that their business is still running when they next vote?   

Edited April 14, 2020 by basil67

[lana-banana]

Our economy was already due for a massive crash; if it wasn't COVID-19, it would have been something else. You cannot build a thriving country where half of the population has little to no savings, no chance at home ownership, and no access to health care. Eventually something's gotta give.

We see it now: the real "essential" workers aren't white-collar guys, but farmhands and maids and cab drivers and grocery workers. These people should be paid a hell of a lot more than financial analysts.

It's funny how being middle-class in the US means you have to focus completely on having a job and not getting sick. Otherwise if just one thing goes wrong you could end up on the street. Meanwhile my "poor" friends in Amsterdam have never worried about their well-being. They don't have a ton of money and don't go out to eat often, but they have never worried about losing work, getting sick, missing rent, whatever.

[thefooloftheyear]

37 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Yes, we are all looking at a depression the likes of which we haven't seen for nearly 100 years.   But what's the alternative?   Is huge amounts of death preferable to people losing businesses?   Is keeping business going worth the risk to the health of the front line workers?   What about hospitals being overwhelmed?  What about medical staff walking away from their jobs because working is too high risk?   

A politician who chooses business over people's lives is running is a pretty high political risk.  Will people be remembering the dead family member or that their business is still running when they next vote?   

I get all that....

But you do realize that "large amounts of death" will also result from a prolonged forced economic meltdown?   Its not one or the other,,,So will a spike in drug/alcohol use, mental health issues, etc..

Just saying "it is what it is", isn't the answer over the long term and the thought that "it's just about money/business./profits/greed" is a false narrative being perpetrated mostly by the media and those who's lives have not (yet) been affected...Wealthy  business owners will just fold up and live off the fat....The ones that will suffer are the ones down the line that need the paycheck and want to work...As it is now,. they are talking about massive eventual evictions of tenants of apartments...Where do you suggest we put these people?

I can tell you that the people I know saying stay the course(lockdown) indefinitely are people that either

-Have nothing to lose so it doesn't affect them.

-Have jobs/pay that can continue during the lockdown uninterrupted..

-are collecting some form of government assistance...

Meanwhile, small/mid sized businesses everywhere have laid off practically everyone and there are no jobs anywhere....There wont be enough of a safety net to save everyone....100 trillion may not be enough...

So with all this said, I'm not saying open everything up immediately and have a party...And I do advocate listening to and abiding by the directives...But there should be a concerted and coordinated effort to phase in workers and begin to get things going in the safest way possible...even if it means that there is "some" risk involved...The alternative will be far worse...imo

TFY