The necessity of lockdowns during the pandemic

[thefooloftheyear]

14 minutes ago, Ellener said:

@thefooloftheyearI haven't seen the things falling apart that some of you are talking about, except read about the logistic difficulties in the worst hit places in the news, everyone is buckling down here and just getting on with providing essential services, trying to patronise local businesses. 

 

it's actually not really had much of an effect on me either....Primarily because I live my life a lot different than most people do...not because of the conditions...The way I live is tailor made for this type of thing...

But I'm not so insulated as some to not be aware of what is going on out there..I do business and have direct almost daily contact with people that employ hundreds and run very large enterprises...I hear it right from the source....Its not good, and it has the potential of being way worse...once the effects really take hold and the government can't keep sending out checks..

TFY

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, thefooloftheyear said:

the government can't keep sending out checks..

They can and they will; this is what governments are for, administering this kind of situation, redistributing wealth.

If Trump wants a second term it's the way he'll get it!

America is a good place to be right now, lot of people with grit and compassion...they are keeping things going. 

The Wall Street Journal said yesterday the worst of the shut-downs is over, but people will have to be patient too, there will be local shutdowns ongoing in response to new outbreaks.

I'm just waiting it out for now, fully expecting to have to start a new business by 2021, still unsure what it will be. Some days I feel overwhelmed with the not knowing the future, some days excited to think about beginning over. Again. I have a little apartment home again now anyway, loving that! took it all for granted before.

I think people can expect to have good days and bad days adjusting to it all, some things have likely changed forever, plus lockdown is unusually isolating and lonely, even people who live with others are expressing that.

Glad you are doing ok @thefooloftheyear Trent Hamm of The Simple Dollar wrote at the start of this 'Rather than altering what I’m doing radically because of a crisis or a disaster, I try to live my life so that a crisis won’t upend things — or will alter things as little as possible. Thus, almost everything I describe below are things that I normally do during normal times and during moments of crisis. These principles and strategies are ones that I repeated during the financial crisis of 2008, during the severe flooding that rocked the area around where I live in 2010, and I’m using right now, too. They’ve helped during a lot of personal crises, too. I expect that these principles and strategies will be suited for almost every major crisis that comes along in my life.'

 

 

[Ellener]

Here's the article https://www.thesimpledollar.com/financial-wellness/preparing-for-the-unexpected-frugally-and-financially/

[schlumpy]

3 hours ago, Libby1 said:

This isn't to say I didn't support a lockdown.  I do, but it should have happened earlier and lasted for less time.  We ought not to minimise the devastating effect it's having on people....and will continue to have for months to come.

 Normally it's the other way around - with the left tending to be concerned about mental health issues while the right takes more of a "pull yourself together" attitude.  It brings home to me, once again, what a corrupting influence politics can be on all of us.

Everything is a balancing act Libby. Take something from one side of the equation and the effects are felt on the other side of it. Government does not provide individual prescriptions for each individuals situation. The do things by numbers and that means "one size fits all." Only at the local level can you provide a semblance of the type of social support you are suggesting. That's why individuals such as yourself make the difference.

Any human endeavor is corrupt and that includes the church. The corruption is a given. The question we must ask ourselves is how much corruption can we tolerate? 

[clia]

2 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

This is why it's so frustrating to see people not buckling down NOW. We've never all really been on board at once so the likelihood of a strong second wave is high and this sh** show will just go on and on...until we have well and truly sunk ourselves. 

If the likelihood of a strong second wave is high, it sure seems strange that cities are shutting down their "surge" hospitals all over the country -- "surge" hospitals that cost millions to build.  It makes me think they are not expecting a strong second wave.  

[schlumpy]

41 minutes ago, Ellener said:

They can and they will; this is what governments are for, administering this kind of situation, redistributing wealth.

That's what socialist governments are for - not a constitutional republic.

It's very easy to be generous with someone else's wallet and not so easy with your own.

You are right that the American people will choose their path this November. Whatever their choice is, I will adapt.

[chillii]

22 minutes ago, clia said:

If the likelihood of a strong second wave is high, it sure seems strange that cities are shutting down their "surge" hospitals all over the country -- "surge" hospitals that cost millions to build.  It makes me think they are not expecting a strong second wave.  

 

l'm always hearing all that about a second wave but you know looking at the charts from all over the world l haven't yet seen a second wave with any country. Seen a few little humps , but nothing even close to the first.

Not saying it hasn't happened but l haven't seen any charts with second waves myself.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by chillii

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, chillii said:

Seen a few little humps

yes, they are the 'second waves' and can go on for a whie, and make bigger outbreaks.

That's why it's important the decisions get made at local levels, and people stick with the infection control protocols.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

That's what socialist governments are for - not a constitutional republic.

It's very easy to be generous with someone else's wallet and not so easy with your own.

You are right that the American people will choose their path this November. Whatever their choice is, I will adapt.

Yes, not much will change. In a crisis people need to be taken care of, and they are being, but in the US it'll all soon go back to making the rich richer I'm sure.

[Redhead14]

21 hours ago, FMW said:

But just like people with health issues that are at greater risk of serious illness and death from the virus, those people with emotional/psychological issues should not be considered expendable just because "hey, they would have died anyway". 

I agree.  I was really just being sarcastic/ironic for those people who do feel like some of the population is just not worth even minimal efforts to try to reduce risks for.  These people are also pointing out suicides to support the need for "unlocking" the lock downs when in fact they don't really care if people are dying or not because of the pandemic but they use it when its supports their "cause". 

It isn't the loosening up of the lock downs and rules that I object to either.  I was actually fine with it because I wanted my friends and family who aren't at serious risk to get on with their lives even though mine will be limited.  It's the cold, callous lack of empathy a lot of people have for the part of the population who will be giving up an awful lot for a long time.  I don't mind doing that for a people, especially ones I love and care about, but not for a bunch of sociopaths.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Redhead14

[sothereiwas]

9 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

These people are also pointing out suicides to support the need for "unlocking" the lock downs when in fact they don't really care if people are dying or not because of the pandemic but they use it when its supports their "cause". 

Or alternatively it could be a case of looking at the problem holistically and seeking an optimal solution overall rather than prioritizing just one group. Could be that. 

[Redhead14]

Just now, sothereiwas said:

Or alternatively it could be a case of looking at the problem holistically and seeking an optimal solution overall rather than prioritizing just one group. Could be that. 

Taking a few seconds to put on a mask and give a little space, is not what I'd call prioritizing anyone.

[sothereiwas]

24 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

These people are also pointing out suicides to support the need for "unlocking" the lock downs when in fact they don't really care if people are dying or not because of the pandemic but they use it when its supports their "cause". 

 

12 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

Taking a few seconds to put on a mask and give a little space, is not what I'd call prioritizing anyone.

 

Now you've changed the complaint. Which is it?

[Redhead14]

1 minute ago, sothereiwas said:

 

 

Now you've changed the complaint. Which is it?

What? 

[sothereiwas]

Just now, Redhead14 said:

What? 

You initially complained about people wanting to end lockdown being uncaring, then pivoted to people who choose not to wear a mask. Which is it you're accusing of being uncaring? What is your specific complaint? Or are you doing that thing where a person isn't looking for an answer, but rather just feels better after commiserating? I have no issue with any of it, I'm just curious which it is. 

[Redhead14]

15 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

You initially complained about people wanting to end lockdown being uncaring, then pivoted to people who choose not to wear a mask. Which is it you're accusing of being uncaring? What is your specific complaint? Or are you doing that thing where a person isn't looking for an answer, but rather just feels better after commiserating? I have no issue with any of it, I'm just curious which it is. 

No, I never mean't that I didn't want to end the lock downs at some point.  I was concerned about doing that too soon because at one point they were talking about ending it a couple of weeks ago in some places though as these threads when along.  I also took exception to the people who said the lock downs weren't necessary at all and they were OK with letting some people die.  I was willing to step back so my loved ones could get on with their lives until I realized how many people simply don't care.    My issue is that after everything opens up, very few will bother to take minimal efforts so that a few more who are at risk might take on a little bit more risk so that they can have some freedom too.  To me the mask wearing and distancing is a compromise at least.  There is no compassion/empathy for those who are still vibrant and active older members of society who might have some conditions just due to age but are otherwise healthy and have things they wanted to do and grandchildren and family to spend time with.  Some of us won't be able to do that anymore for a long time.

I doesn't feel good to be told you are disposable.

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Redhead14

[carhill]

Since Hong Kong is gathering publicly to protest the Chicom attacks on its democracy and definitely not socially distancing nor locking down in that effort, hopefully scientists can track the effects of that on virus spread and mortality. So far, sources have reported a pretty stellar result for the city, barely over 1000 positive cases and only 4 deaths. 👍

Here's their current regime of action on Covid-19

https://www.coronavirus.gov.hk/eng/index.html

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, carhill said:

Since Hong Kong is gathering publicly to protest the Chicom attacks on its democracy and definitely not socially distancing nor locking down in that effort, hopefully scientists can track the effects of that on virus spread and mortality. So far, sources have reported a pretty stellar result for the city, barely over 1000 positive cases and only 4 deaths. 👍

Here's their current regime of action on Covid-19

https://www.coronavirus.gov.hk/eng/index.html

It's awful for the people of Hong Kong, losing their democracy and at a time like this...talk about being between the devil and the deep blue sea...

[sothereiwas]

40 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

No, I never mean't that I didn't want to end the lock downs at some point.  I was concerned about doing that too soon because at one point they were talking about ending it a couple of weeks ago in some places though as these threads when along.  I also took exception to the people who said the lock downs weren't necessary at all and they were OK with letting some people die. 

I believe you're conflating two or more separate things here. I think locking down in my locale was never needed, and since we did it anyway, should have been ended a lot sooner. OK with letting some people die is a bit of a deceptive phrase. People die due to public policy all the time, yet we seldom see that phrase used. I would say its more a matter of facing the fact that some people die, and then figuring out how to best deal with it. Around 8000 people die on an average every day in the USA alone historically speaking. We allow public policies that do contribute to that toll for a variety of reasons, some good, others possibly not so good. Oversimplification serves no useful purpose. 

 

40 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

 My issue is that after everything opens up, very few will bother to take minimal efforts so that a few more who are at risk might take on a little bit more risk so that they can have some freedom too.

I think that facilitating those most at risk is a worthy goal going forward. We typically do a decent job of that in America. 

 

40 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

There is no compassion/empathy for those who are still vibrant and active older members of society who might have some conditions just due to age but are otherwise healthy and have things they wanted to do and grandchildren and family to spend time with. 

I don't believe this is true. 

[schlumpy]

I would like to ask a question about the difficulty of locking down in Europe. 

The last time I was in Germany was 1975. I spent 26 months there and much of it off-base.

At that time it was pretty normal for Germans to stop at shops on the way home every second or third day for bread and items like that.

That's not an easy pattern to maintain during a lockdown.

I usually buy my staples in bulk and my bi-weekly trips to the grocery store has been for milk, bread and Ice Cream. It's been very easy for me to stay sequestered because I have so much food in storage like canned goods, dry foods such as beans, and frozen meat.

Has Europe changed it's pattern of frequent grocery shopping? If not, then could the necessary food runs have contributed to the overall infection rate and limited the effectiveness of the lockdown?

[Redhead14]

12 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

I believe you're conflating two or more separate things here. I think locking down in my locale was never needed, and since we did it anyway, should have been ended a lot sooner. OK with letting some people die is a bit of a deceptive phrase. People die due to public policy all the time, yet we seldom see that phrase used. I would say its more a matter of facing the fact that some people die, and then figuring out how to best deal with it. Around 8000 people die on an average every day in the USA alone historically speaking. We allow public policies that do contribute to that toll for a variety of reasons, some good, others possibly not so good. Oversimplification serves no useful purpose. 

 

I think that facilitating those most at risk is a worthy goal going forward. We typically do a decent job of that in America. 

 

I don't believe this is true. 

Ok

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

That's not an easy pattern to maintain during a lockdown.

I've found it to be easier doing that here in recent weeks, run in and out of a supermarket when it's not busy for half a dozen items, no hanging about; it's how I usually shop anyway. Not that I need much either, being just me. And a little dog.

Never thought of my shopping habits as due to my 'European' background...wonder if they still have any of the little 'corner shops', haven't been back to England for years.

I remember the very first 'supermarket' in our town when I was a small child, it was like the Dollar Tree we have here now; then 'hypermarkets' arrived selling everything from cakes to cars...

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, clia said:

If the likelihood of a strong second wave is high, it sure seems strange that cities are shutting down their "surge" hospitals all over the country -- "surge" hospitals that cost millions to build.  It makes me think they are not expecting a strong second wave.  

I hope you’re right. 🤞

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, chillii said:

 

l'm always hearing all that about a second wave but you know looking at the charts from all over the world l haven't yet seen a second wave with any country. Seen a few little humps , but nothing even close to the first.

Not saying it hasn't happened but l haven't seen any charts with second waves myself.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, it's not even summer yet. It's not like it happens within weeks of one ending, I wouldn't think. From the beginning I've been hearing fall as the projected period, which is normal for viruses, like the flu for example.

ETA: I don't think those bumps/uptics are what are meant by the "second wave" - that's just the inevitable increase in infection as businesses, etc. reopen and people are in closer contact again. I mean that's what experts have been saying too. We bunkered down, we saw numbers begin to flatten. We began to open up, numbers have gone up again. Not unilaterally, it depends upon a lot of things, including how often testing is being done and how many people are symptomatic enough with the right cluster of symptoms to be tested, etc. but yeah. This was predicted.

The "second wave" is projected to be a seasonal thing, like the flu, starting in the fall, more serious than these bumps up with reopenings due to all the usual factors and that's what hopefully states are preparing for. Still also theoretical is that, also like seasonal flu, 19 will "just" mellow out or appear to disappear during the summer months...we'll see if that happens. These projections are all really more or less based on how the flu behaves, AFAIK.

Edited May 26, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

46 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I've found it to be easier doing that here in recent weeks, run in and out of a supermarket when it's not busy for half a dozen items, no hanging about; it's how I usually shop anyway. Not that I need much either, being just me. And a little dog.

Never thought of my shopping habits as due to my 'European' background...wonder if they still have any of the little 'corner shops', haven't been back to England for years.

I remember the very first 'supermarket' in our town when I was a small child, it was like the Dollar Tree we have here now; then 'hypermarkets' arrived selling everything from cakes to cars...

 

I do not have a European background (not a direct one) but this is how I've always shopped, I do not like crowds.