The necessity of lockdowns during the pandemic

[elaine567]

"Wear a mask or go to jail" 
I need that pinned to my chest...

[CaliforniaGirl]

5 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

Data indicates most of America did the same. Utility bills, cell phone location data, and so on all say that most people most places self curtailed a week or more before official lockdowns were in place. I'm growing more and more certain that the lockdowns mostly serve a political purpose rather than a practical one. 

Where did you get this info?

[SincereOnlineGuy]

23 hours ago, BC1980 said:

We are reaching new highs in cases and hospitalizations in my state, but we are opening up. Why did we even shut down to begin with? We might as well have just don't what Sweden did.

ROFL

 

The virus and its path have been a function of places whose citizens can afford to get up and roam the world, and of places that people want to get up and go to.

Stockholm's average daily temperature highs in January and February are barely above freezing, so there aren't that many people from around the globe who were very thrilled about going to visit there, and those who live there were already likely indoors during those winter conditions.

 

Thus there was nothing significant to bring the virus to them.  South Sentinel Island might be doing "social distancing" (among one another) too...  but that has no connection to the fact that no one ever brought Covid to South Sentinel Island.

South Sentinel Island is a complete non-factor in the Covid arena, and Sweden is a relative non-factor in the Covid equation for reasons having almost zero to do with their response TO Covid.

 

If the media had access to South Sentinel Island...   they'd be filming orgies there and attempting to give western viewers the idea that "orgies are the answer to Covid - we should have been having orgies all along!"

 

 

[elaine567]

7 hours ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

The virus and its path have been a function of places whose citizens can afford to get up and roam the world, and of places that people want to get up and go to.

In South America there have been food riots.
One of the protesters said the people are angry because the rich with their world travel brought the virus here.
Some of the poor are having to go to work and are getting the virus, the rest of poor have no jobs and are being locked down in their homes with no food...

[schlumpy]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

In South America there have been food riots.
One of the protesters said the people are angry because the rich with their world travel brought the virus here.
Some of the poor are having to go to work and are getting the virus, the rest of poor have no jobs and are being locked down in their homes with no food...

South America is quite a contrast to North America. The have only a brief interlude of peace before the next revolution or Coup de tat.

Over the years many Americans have moved to the southern hemisphere in an effort to leverage their retirements. I wonder how things are working out?

 

[sothereiwas]

Apparently the expected fallout has begun, with one source reporting "a year's worth of suicide attempts in a month" due to the lockdown and 500 doctors signing a letter explaining the expected medical consequences that will affect millions of americans due to routine care such as screenings being curtailed. "We are alarmed at what appears to be the lack of consideration for the future health of our patients,' the doctors add. 'The downstream health effects ... are being massively under-estimated and under-reported. This is an order of magnitude error." says the letter, among other things. 

[Redhead14]

56 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Apparently the expected fallout has begun, with one source reporting "a year's worth of suicide attempts in a month" due to the lockdown and 500 doctors signing a letter explaining the expected medical consequences that will affect millions of americans due to routine care such as screenings being curtailed. "We are alarmed at what appears to be the lack of consideration for the future health of our patients,' the doctors add. 'The downstream health effects ... are being massively under-estimated and under-reported. This is an order of magnitude error." says the letter, among other things. 

If people are committing suicide, they had "issues" before all this happened.

[FMW]

But just like people with health issues that are at greater risk of serious illness and death from the virus, those people with emotional/psychological issues should not be considered expendable just because "hey, they would have died anyway". 

Edited May 25, 2020 by FMW

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Redhead14 said:

If people are committing suicide, they had "issues" before all this happened.

Not necessarily. 

[sothereiwas]

16 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

If people are committing suicide, they had "issues" before all this happened.

My irony detector just overloaded and burst into flames. 

[gaius]

If you notice they said "suicide attempts" rather than actual suicides. Probably because that number is much smaller and would make you less likely to click on the article.

For comparison, during the 2008 financial crisis Europe and North America combined recorded an extra 5,000 suicides. An almost 10% jump over the previous years number in the US. 

Which is tragic no doubt, but considering we're up to almost 100,000 coronavirus deaths in the US alone in under 3 months it's likely that financial related suicide will end up being a much smaller killer than the virus we're currently dealing with. 

 

[chillii]

 

Can't believe people would be doing themselves in just from a few mths of lock down . Financially or other reasons and issues yeah , but lock down , sounds so me me might be better of without them. l mean what would they rather everyone goes back to life and millions of people die , it's only a few mths in the comfort of their own home for crying out loud . They can still go out hell go shopping 10 times a day if you can't think of anything else.

Edited May 26, 2020 by chillii

[Libby1]

2 hours ago, chillii said:

 

Can't believe people would be doing themselves in just from a few mths of lock down . Financially or other reasons and issues yeah , but lock down , sounds so me me might be better of without them. l mean what would they rather everyone goes back to life and millions of people die , it's only a few mths in the comfort of their own home for crying out loud . They can still go out hell go shopping 10 times a day if you can't think of anything else.

Sure - if somebody has a nice home, a garden, unrestricted access to social media, doesn't suffer from poor mental health and can work from home.  That seems to be a position a lot of people are in, and some of them are extolling the virtues of lockdown.  And there are benefits.  If everybody's locked down in their homes then there are environmental benefits and a lot more peace and quiet. 

A lot of people are quite enjoying lockdown, but for some it's going to be an absolute nightmare. People who have a drinker or somebody with an anger management problem/tendency towards violence in the family, for instance.  Sure, the government give advice for people in that situation - but leaving the familiarity of home (even a toxic home) and going into a refuge in the middle of a pandemic might seem even more frightening than staying.  People with mental health problems won't have the same support that they would usually get. People who've worked hard to build up businesses that can only be conducted on a face to face basis (bars, restaurants etc).

This isn't to say I didn't support a lockdown.  I do, but it should have happened earlier and lasted for less time.  We ought not to minimise the devastating effect it's having on people....and will continue to have for months to come.  It's also resulting in young people being placed in a very unusual and restrictive situation whereby they don't get to enjoy the things those before them took for granted.  Parties, graduation ceremonies, job-hunting, being out and about building new friendships.  For those whose circumstances are well suited to a lock in, it's not much of a sacrifice.  For young people who aren't getting the opportunities they need to flourish and start building their lives, it's a huge sacrifice.  I think in the coming years we are going to see an unprecedented rise in inter-generational conflict that's going to be very difficult to address.  It's not just about what's happening now, but about the economic and sociological impact it'll have for years to come.

As an aside, and with reference to political trends rather than to the views of individual posters here, it's striking to me that the political right is now embracing the cause of suicide prevention while the political left seems to be minimising the risks lockdown poses in terms of increasing the numbers of people with suicide ideation.  Normally it's the other way around - with the left tending to be concerned about mental health issues while the right takes more of a "pull yourself together" attitude.  It brings home to me, once again, what a corrupting influence politics can be on all of us.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Libby1

[CaliforniaGirl]

24 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

Sure - if somebody has a nice home, a garden, unrestricted access to social media, doesn't suffer from poor mental health and can work from home.  That seems to be a position a lot of people are in, and some of them are extolling the virtues of lockdown.  And there are benefits.  If everybody's locked down in their homes then there are environmental benefits and a lot more peace and quiet. 

A lot of people are quite enjoying lockdown, but for some it's going to be an absolute nightmare. People who have a drinker or somebody with an anger management problem/tendency towards violence in the family, for instance.  Sure, the government give advice for people in that situation - but leaving the familiarity of home (even a toxic home) and going into a refuge in the middle of a pandemic might seem even more frightening than staying.  People with mental health problems won't have the same support that they would usually get. People who've worked hard to build up businesses that can only be conducted on a face to face basis (bars, restaurants etc).

This isn't to say I didn't support a lockdown.  I do, but it should have happened earlier and lasted for less time.  We ought not to minimise the devastating effect it's having on people....and will continue to have for months to come.  It's also resulting in young people being placed in a very unusual and restrictive situation whereby they don't get to enjoy the things those before them took for granted.  Parties, graduation ceremonies, job-hunting, being out and about building new friendships.  For those whose circumstances are well suited to a lock in, it's not much of a sacrifice.  For young people who aren't getting the opportunities they need to flourish and start building their lives, it's a huge sacrifice.  I think in the coming years we are going to see an unprecedented rise in inter-generational conflict that's going to be very difficult to address.  It's not just about what's happening now, but about the economic and sociological impact it'll have for years to come.

I don't know...I've written about this on the rants board, actually. I tend toward depression. My family is lucky. We still have our incomes, I live in Adorableville, my kids are well-behaved and lovely, we are within literally 10 minutes of mountain hikes, I can either go buy or order in what I need and it's all I can do to get out of bed. I have an ever increasing sense of futility.

But I know people who have been very hard hit and have their chins up.

I do think our own makeup dramatically influences now we react to stress, any stress. I'm an introvert and I am sure not loving this. It is not my dream life by far. Being an introvert doesn't mean I want to feel stressed and uncertain and to fear for my elderly in laws who already aren't doing great and have to stand six feet away from people just to go pick up a gallon of milk.

Hard times can make people depressed but situational depression tends to play out differently from chronic depression, unless you've literally lost every single thing you have as with people jumping out of windows during the crash of 1929, and that's not really what we're seeing here. We have a huge degree of help measures today people did not have then. People will, if worse collides directly with worst, eat. I think it only makes sense that depression and anxiety are underlying conditions that can influence later crisis issues, like these that are happening now.

Edited May 26, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Ellener]

1-800-273-8255 is the US 24/7 National Suicide Prevention Line.

To quote National Alliance on mental Illness:

'Many individuals with mental illness are not affected by suicidal thoughts and not all people who attempt or die by suicide have mental illness. Relationship problems and other life stressors such as criminal/legal matters, persecution, eviction/loss of home, death of a loved one, a devastating or debilitating illness, trauma, sexual abuse, rejection, and recent or impending crises are also associated with suicidal thoughts and attempts.'

Everyone's experiencing the pandemic differently, just as any of the factors which affect suicide, including mental illness, are experienced differently. For many people this may be the first time in their life they have faced a major crisis; for others the crisis may be forcing intolerable living conditions. In India thousands of people have become 'Covid migrants' who are trying to leave infected crowded cities then don't have enough to eat, for example. 

Suicide is the leading cause of violent death in the world at any given time, we become more aware of it in times like this.

 

 

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

My family is lucky. We still have our incomes, I live in Adorableville, my kids are well-behaved and lovely, we are within literally 10 minutes of mountain hikes, I can either go buy or order in what I need and it's all I can do to get out of bed. I have an ever increasing sense of futility.

Hang in there, life will get better again, depression can be managed (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[CaliforniaGirl]

16 minutes ago, Ellener said:

1-800-273-8255 is the US 24/7 National Suicide Prevention Line.

To quote National Alliance on mental Illness:

'Many individuals with mental illness are not affected by suicidal thoughts and not all people who attempt or die by suicide have mental illness. Relationship problems and other life stressors such as criminal/legal matters, persecution, eviction/loss of home, death of a loved one, a devastating or debilitating illness, trauma, sexual abuse, rejection, and recent or impending crises are also associated with suicidal thoughts and attempts.'

Everyone's experiencing the pandemic differently, just as any of the factors which affect suicide, including mental illness, are experienced differently. For many people this may be the first time in their life they have faced a major crisis; for others the crisis may be forcing intolerable living conditions. In India thousands of people have become 'Covid migrants' who are trying to leave infected crowded cities then don't have enough to eat, for example. 

Suicide is the leading cause of violent death in the world at any given time, we become more aware of it in times like this.

 

 

 

I get your overall stance on wanting to reopen and now, your linked stance on this but you're omitting some info, such as the fact that according to the NIH, more than 90% of suicide *deaths* were people who had *prior depression,* so please, don't be dangerous here. Just the hotline number would have been enough. Yes, people who suffer from depression are at a significantly higher risk of death by suicide including during this pandemic. Please be very careful in what you say regarding this serious issue. Thank you. ❤️

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc6165520/baby

The pandemic lockdown is not overall causing suicide deaths in otherwise mentally and emotionally healthy people. This is poor reasoning for prematurely reopening businesses and getting people *physically* sick in potentially large numbers.

Edited May 26, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I get your overall stance on wanting to reopen and now, your linked stance on this but you're omitting some info, such as the fact that according to the NIH, more than 90% of suicide *deaths* were people who had *prior depression,* so please, don't be dangerous here. Just the number would have been enough. Yes, people who suffer from depression are at a significantly higher risk of death baby suicide including during this pandemic. Please be very careful in what you say regarding this serious issue. Thank you. ❤️

You're not making complete sense there.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
remove link

[Ellener]

Anyone who needs support surrounding suicide or depression in the US can call the 24/7 number 1-800-273-8255

 

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

14 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Anyone who needs support surrounding suicide or depression in the US can call the 24/7 number 1-800-273-8255

 

 

thank you for the info Ellener 💖

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

thank you for the info Ellener 💖

You ok?

[thefooloftheyear]

The issue as far as suicide/depression with regard to what is happening or what will potentially happen isn't really being felt......yet....

The economic misery hasn't taken hold yet...For some, sure, but on a large scale I can't say that... Many businesses(and individuals) have received government handouts...and the equity markets have miraculously rebounded robustly...But I don't think we've seen the worst of what is to come...The handouts can't go on forever...And I think the rally in the markets isn't based on valid economic data as it would have been under normal circumstances....I don't think there is any doubt that a bleak economic situation is looming, just hasn't been realized yet...

People are missing mortgage and municipal tax payments at record levels...No one is getting dinged for this now, because of the pandemic, but these conditions can't last for much longer without some consequences...And I believe businesses will reconfigure and restructure moving forward...Payrolls will be slashed more than they are now, and a real estate bust also seems inevitable....especially on the commercial side.. I think the one's that will be hit the hardest moving forward, are the six figure middle managers and sales types.....

Add to this the uncertainty of the November election...For the US, its almost a no win...There is no hope for unity and anything that remotely resembles calmness and level headedness(which is desperately needed now more than ever), but instead a further division and unrest, no matter who wins...

Even Fauci mentioned a week or so ago that he feared that the extended lockdown would cause irreparable harm to the economy and the general state of mind of the population...I think at the end of the day, we can't compare ourselves tp places like China and South Korea, etc....In those countries, the government has control over it's people...What they do doesn't really apply to what happens here...For better or worse, it's just not the same and to expect that It should be won't be helpful...

What happens this fall/winter after the elections will be critical...Do we have a vaccine and will it even be effective:?  If there is a big "second wave" and the economy is still on it's knees.and markets nose diving,  with all the discord around the election adding fuel to the fire..what is that going to look like? These are just speculations of course, and hopefully they don't materialize, but its not all that much of a stretch to think its a "perfect storm" brewing...

TFY

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[CaliforniaGirl]

I googled the article. I notice it's mostly "coulds" and potentials plus some actual numbers such as calls to hotlines (those are more direct and telling) but no actual numbers in these suicide deaths the doctor said he saw at his ER, not any numbers from any other ER. The petition was signed apparently also based on these potential suicides or potential alcoholism, etc. according to the snippets I saw published, anyway.

But one thing I do agree with strongly is the doctor's assertion that people who need preventative medicine right now simply aren't getting it, so new serious medical co editions might not be being detected. I've been wondering about this for a while. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

10 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

The issue as far as suicide/depression with regard to what is happening or what will potentially happen isn't really being felt......yet....

The economic misery hasn't taken hold yet...For some, sure, but on a large scale I can't say that... Many businesses(and individuals) have received government handouts...and the equity markets have miraculously rebounded robustly...But I don't think we've seen the worst of what is to come...The handouts can't go on forever...And I think the rally in the markets isn't based on valid economic data as it would have been under normal circumstances....I don't think there is any doubt that a bleak economic situation is looming, just hasn't been realized yet...

People are missing mortgage and municipal tax payments at record levels...No one is getting dinged for this now, because of the pandemic, but these conditions can't last for much longer without some consequences...And I believe businesses will reconfigure and restructure moving forward...Payrolls will be slashed more than they are now, and a real estate bust also seems inevitable....especially on the commercial side.. I think the one's that will be hit the hardest moving forward, are the six figure middle managers and sales types.....

Add to this the uncertainty of the November election...For the US, its almost a no win...There is no hope for unity and anything that remotely resembles calmness and level headedness(which is desperately needed now more than ever), but instead a further division and unrest, no matter who wins...

Even Fauci mentioned a week or so ago that he feared that the extended lockdown would cause irreparable harm to the economy and the general state of mind of the population...I think at the end of the day, we can't compare ourselves tp places like China and South Korea, etc....In those countries, the government has control over it's people...What they do doesn't really apply to what happens here...For better or worse, it's just not the same and to expect that It should be won't be helpful...

What happens this fall/winter after the elections will be critical...Do we have a vaccine and will it even be effective:?  If there is a big "second wave" and the economy is still on it's knees.and markets nose diving,  with all the discord around the election adding fuel to the fire..what is that going to look like? These are just speculations of course, and hopefully they don't materialize, but its not all that much of a stretch to think its a "perfect storm" brewing...

TFY

 

This is why it's so frustrating to see people not buckling down NOW. We've never all really been on board at once so the likelihood of a strong second wave is high and this sh** show will just go on and on...until we have well and truly sunk ourselves. I honestly do not know what's going to happen to us and I'm so tired of trying to help people not kill and bankrupt themselves. We could have handled this so much more cleanly but nope. I am really, really afraid of what the heck is going to be left of the U.S. after all this is over. I just don't know anymore... 😥 I can't believe life was ever normal.

Edited May 26, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Ellener]

@thefooloftheyearI haven't seen the things falling apart that some of you are talking about, except read about the logistic difficulties in the worst hit places in the news, everyone is buckling down here and just getting on with providing essential services, trying to patronise local businesses. 

My business has pretty much fallen apart, but I'll rebuild it or reinvent it, I haven't missed paying any bills or any meals yet.

I miss attending church, the Zoom experience isn't the same! 

I read about a global project:

'We created QuarantineChat as a response to the coronavirus causing people in cities to be in quarantine, isolating humans from each other. While people can still talk to their friends and family virtually, the experience of spontaneously talking to a stranger is now missing from many of our lives.

Whether the virus has affected you, or you're worried, or you live in the woods—your phone might ring and connect you to another interesting person you should meet. COVID-19 is not a lighthearted matter, but we hope this project brings people moments of joy in an otherwise dark time.

QuarantineChat was created by artists Danielle Baskin and Max Hawkins who also created Dialup. who have stayed in touch over the phone through random calls for the last two years.'