Clarity needed from any long term OW/MM.

[Nats_16]

His GF seems a really nice woman, I would never contact her again as I do not want to cause her any more pain. I should take his indecision as a decision. I do not worry that I wouldn't find someone else but when you have meet someone who you think is the one its hard to walk away. In all other areas of my life I have my s*** together but he really has this ability to paralyse me.

[Lylalou]

Nats if she’s a nice woman why wouldn’t you walk away and let them get on with their life, he isn’t free to have a relationship with you and if he wanted to be with you he would have left by now, he’s just using you for the ego boost and cake. 
Let them sort their lives out without a third person involved. 

[Nats_16]

Thank you @Lylalou I wish that he would see this point of view to. I love him and only want the best for him, I think he is very confused. I would like him to stay where he is and for him to let me go in a non confrontational way so that one day we can maybe be friends but everytime I leave he gets nasty. Lose lose situation and I am sad that I will not even be able to have him as a friend as we get on so so well.

[Lylalou]

Nats you wouldn’t allow a friend to treat you this way so why allow OM to treat you like that, he isn’t a friend now and I’m not sure you can be friends again when you love this man, I’ve been friends for 26 yrs with my MM and that is hard to forget. You aren’t doing anything wrong, he is so he has no reason to get angry or nasty with you. He only gets angry because you are threatening to stop cake and massaging his ego.
Honestly it gets harder and hurts more, 2.5 yrs is already a lot of time to waste. 

[Nats_16]

what was the moment you realised you were being used and put a stop to it and how did you end it @Lylalou

[BaileyB]

32 minutes ago, Nats_16 said:

Thank you @LylalouI wish that he would see this point of view to. I love him and only want the best for him, I think he is very confused. I would like him to stay where he is and for him to let me go in a non confrontational way so that one day we can maybe be friends but everytime I leave he gets nasty.

He doesn’t have to see this point of view. And to be fair, he’s not going to see this point of view. It’s not actually in his perceived best interest to see this point of view, he wants you both - exactly as you are. 

You don’t need to wait for him to let you go... The beautiful thing is, you have the ability to make your own decision. If he doesn’t like it, that’s his problem. Get the idea that you can be friends out of your head, like any breakup - it’s not possible to be friends with someone you have felt romantic feelings. The concept is very unrealistic, and he has proven to you - it’s not going to happen.

Wishing the situation was different does not make it so. At some point, you are going to have to let go of your fantasies and deal with the reality of what is... You are dating an unavailable man who has proven by his actions that he has no intention of leaving his relationship. He has proven that he is not about to “do the right thing” and let you go, so you will have to make that decision for yourself. And, if he doesn’t like it... well... that’s his problem. He’s had plenty of opportunities to make a different decision... as you say, his indecision is his decision. You are in your mid-thirties and you are wasting some of the most important years of your life on a dead end relationship with a man of weak character. Time to move on...

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by BaileyB

[peaceminusone]

I agree with the others. Also, I dont think he's waiting for the GF to leave or saving up on anything/saving his face among friends. 
If it were any of that, then he might have taken a considerable action in siding with you or been with you. 

A man, who only talks and doesnt take action, ( goodness, for 2.5 years at that) is just a selfish coward who is enjoying the attention and the rewards. 

He'll probably repeat this pattern of attention, even if one of the women in equation leaves.

[BaileyB]

Yeah, perhaps he is not as weak of character as he is just plain... manipulative. He has managed to find himself two girlfriends for the past two years without actually having to totally commit to either. 

Two women who know about each other, and have tolerated this for two years. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by BaileyB

[DKT3]

Yeah, he is not confused. He is living the life he wants. 

OP you said you told his girlfriend three times and he didn't leave. It's more then that.  Not only did he not leave, but he convinced her to let him stay. 

How can you want something better for your life and continue to chase this guy, how do you imagine your life with him? In my opinion,  best case scenario, you become the woman he is cheating on instead of the one he is cheating with. 

[Lylalou]

Nats the final straw for me from lots of false starts was one of his enormous lies I caught him out on and I couldn’t take it anymore, I wouldnt treat a friend the same way. I too thought I’d put too much time in and what if him leaving is just round the corner, but they don’t leave we’ve made their lives too comfortable.
And I just could accept being second, third or forth best any longer, nothing that came out of his mouth ever related to any actions. He said he’d change but that change never came so, with one more little lie I walked away, no message to him nothing, and that message last week was the first I’d heard from him for 9 months. Even after a dear friend committed suicide he never reached out to see if I was ok, that told me a lot about the person he is, a selfish, entitled and lying cheat. 
Be strong and end this relationship that isn’t going anywhere. 

[Nats_16]

Thank you all for your insights and advice, my gut tells me he is just dragging me along for a ride and I should go with that.

If we are ever meant to be he will finish where he is and come and find me and if he ends up staying where he is that is obviously where he wants to be.

I should put myself above my feelings, he is treating me like dirt, all his future faking etc etc. I have seen first hand the extent he will go to to deceive someone, the number of times I have also caught him out lying to me but I have made excuses and fallen for his lies time and time again. I need to drum it in to my head that he is not married, he does not have children, he is legally entitled to half of his house and the business belongs to him so there is nothing stopping him talking to her any day of the week.

[lifeoflies]

you are really getting good advice here.  not sure you really want to hear it but i hope so.

[lifeoflies]

4 hours ago, Nats_16 said:

I think he is very confused

sure he is.  it is still up to him to work out his confusion.  you will never be able to help him with this.  if he tells you you can, then he's kidding himself.  i'm not sure he is an evil beast but i think he will only bring you pain.  i'm sorry

[JimmyNorth]

13 hours ago, Nats_16 said:

@JimmyNorthwhat is your take on this situation please.

Yep, this situation sounds familiar to me. The only difference is that he is not married.

My take on this is that if he always comes running for you when you walk away, you must have something he really desires.It could he love the way you treat him, maybe your the hottest woman he’s ever hadl, maybe he loves the sex, or maybe he really doesn’t want to lose you because he will never find one like you again. 

If he was a true player and had many women, he wouldn’t be to worried if you walked away as he would be plenty busy with other woman around. But it doesn’t sound like he’s that way. In his mind, you could really be his 10 and he may feel good having you in his life.

So maybe there are some other things that might be keeping him with his GF, besides money or financial. There are a couple ways this can go.

FIRST POSSIBILITY: Maybe his GF treats him well and HE KNOWS she would genuinely be devastated because she’s done everything she can to make him happy. So he feels so guilty waking away from her. BUT.....maybe you are a total knockout and he is extremely attracted to you and will not give you up. I know this sounds childish, but this is possible. Hence the reason he runs to you.

POSSIBILITY #2: It could very well be the joint ownership with the house is a big sticking point. Maybe there is a lot of money tied up in it. So maybe he needs to sort this out....fast!

Your story is very similar to mine. Right now you are at 2.5 years. Now imagine waiting ANOTHER YEAR!! Could you handle it? Being kept a secret and not having a real life really messes with your head. 

My OW was going crazy at fact I could not commit for so long. My OW became very guarded in year 3 but remained hopeful that ONE DAY I would make it real. She could have dated many guys, but I don’t think she’d ever let me go in reality. But I really wanted to be with her and I had to really decide on what I wanted to do instead of living a double life with a mistress!

[assertives]

Girl, he had THREE D days. Not one, not two but THREE D days. I'm not sure where you are seeing "indecision" on his part. He has decided. In fact, he has clearly decided to stay with her in EACH OF THOSE THREE D days. He chose to keep his relationship with her over you each of those three D days. In JimmyNorth's case, iirc, he was forced to make a decision because he was actually afraid he'll lose her, in your case, when faced with losing you, he actually told you it's over if you left. All he needed to do was to throw you some breadcrumbs, some manipulative guilt-tripping to keep you in your place. 

Another thing to also consider. Everyone here has said he isn't married, have no kids and hence it's easy for him to leave but he isn't. Actually, the same also can be said for his girlfriend. She chose to stay with this cheater and take him back each of those three D days. Have you thought what if she is willing to do that for years on end? If you took a look at the infidelity forum, you'll see a thread posted by a BS who's husband and been cheating for a decade or more.. and it doesn't sound like she's closer to divorcing than day one. 11/10 do not recommend. As it is, life with the right person isn't long enough, don't waste anymore time on someone who did not choose you (and is still not choosing you) like you chose them.

Edited April 20, 2020 by assertives

[Nats_16]

@JimmyNorth thankyou for your perspectives. At what point was the lightning bulb moment when you thought if you didn't act you were going to lose her? and why did you keep her as OW for so long and not finish your marriage and be with her. Its such a mind boggling situation, one I would never wish upon anyone to enter. How do I get him to see that I am being completely serious when I say I have had enough without him turning nasty and telling me if I give up on him then he will never come looking for me again. Why cannot he just behave like an adult and agree to come and pursue me when he has finished this one part of his life and he is free and ready to start one with me. For me that is what I want him to do and every time I suggest it he says I am giving up on him and to give him time and sort his finances out. Surely the best place to start would be to sit his GF down and tell her he no longer wants to be with her.

[Starswillshine]

21 minutes ago, Nats_16 said:

How do I get him to see that I am being completely serious when I say I have had enough without him turning nasty and telling me if I give up on him then he will never come looking for me again. Why cannot he just behave like an adult and agree to come and pursue me when he has finished this one part of his life and he is free and ready to start one with me. For me that is what I want him to do and every time I suggest it he says I am giving up on him and to give him time and sort his finances out. Surely the best place to start would be to sit his GF down and tell her he no longer wants to be with her.

Because he is manipulating you into staying. Because he has no desire to end it with his girlfriend. He wants to be with her. He wants you to stick around. That is how he wants it. If you walk away, he loses his toy. 

Jimmy didnt leave until his OW slept with another man. That woke him up. Walk away. If he is serious, he will do the right thing and end his relationship. Likely though he will just keep telling you it will happen and never does. 

[Lylalou]

Nats he has given up on you not the other way round by refusing leave. He is where he wants to be, he isn’t married and has no children, a house can be sold and split, none of his situation is insurmountable but yet he still wants you as his OW, his mistress, his bit on the side, if you’re happy with that then continue to wait and wait, I wouldnt wish 7 yrs of waiting on my worst enemy.

Jimmy can give you his prospective on your case, but even he said the guy isn’t married and has no children. You’ve had 3 DD and he still hasn’t left. Stop grasping at straws and wise up to what you know you need to do. If he wants you enough and he is the one for you, tell him to contact you when he is single but at the moment you need to look after your own mental health and well-being.

I bet if you asked any of your friends and 99% of people here tell you that you are wasting your life, we can’t all be wrong.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Nats_16 said:

How do I get him to see that I am being completely serious when I say I have had enough without him turning nasty and telling me if I give up on him then he will never come looking for me again. Why cannot he just behave like an adult and agree to come and pursue me when he has finished this one part of his life and he is free and ready to start one with me.

Surely the best place to start would be to sit his GF down and tell her he no longer wants to be with her.

Friend, you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink. 

You have waited for two and a half years, through three d-days, you have made the ultimate power play and told his girlfriend about you - and he still chooses her. And, for some miraculous reason she also continues to chose him. He’s not going to sit down and tell her he doesn’t want to be with her - he has no intention of doing that. He has chosen her THREE times and he has told you, walk away if you want... I’m not going to chase you. He has chosen her.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by BaileyB

[elaine567]

40 minutes ago, Nats_16 said:

Why cannot he just behave like an adult and agree to come and pursue me when he has finished this one part of his life and he is free and ready to start one with me.

Because he has no intention of doing that...
If he had truly wanted that then he would have dumped her years ago. He is not married, no kids, no significant ties... 
As soon as realised you were what he wanted he would have moved on with you, not sneaked around with you behind her back.
He has two women because he wants to have two women.
I get it, at 35 you have identified a potential partner and it is a pain he has a gf and is not choosing you. You feel you have too much invested to walk away but this is an extra "marital" affair and not singles dating. 
Waiting around hoping is getting you nowhere.
Even if he did leave, there is no guarantee that once "free" he will then chose you unfortunately. Once free they can date as normal. and the OW can be discarded. 
Some will even find a new  wife/gf and still want to keep the OW on as the OW...

Sunk cost fallacy -  “a prior investment in one option leads to a continuous investment in that option, despite not being the best decision.”

[heartwhole2]

Can you imagine what he's had to say to his girlfriend to get her to stay after each DDay? I would wager he's painted you in a very unflattering light.

You feel very out of control. You've tried to take back control by telling the girlfriend three times, and by sending his gifts to you where she would see them. However, that hasn't worked. There's a difference between manipulation and boundaries. Manipulation is when we try to make others do what we want by coercion. Boundaries are when we state what we will and won't accept and then walk away when they are crossed. You've focused a lot on how he isn't making healthy choices here, but the truth is that neither are you. Focus on your part of the equation; if you don't want to be a mistress, then don't be one. 

[Nats_16]

You are all so right, its just so hard convincing your mind what your heart already knows. We live and we learn and the best teachers are the biggest mistakes. Im grateful for all you lovely non judgemental people who really are helping me with your honest words.

I do love him there is no doubt about that but do I really want someone that has shown me they are deceitful and lack the courage and are conflict avoidant. The man I really want is strong in character and morals, although mine are questionable at this current time. Getting involved with him has cost me a lot, I will never get certain parts of me back and I guess its hard to accept when to stop giving because you've put so much into it but in reality what do I get out of this? Someone who calls me when he leaves the house or calls me on his way home to his GF. Messages me when he is sitting up in his office or when he gets into bed after they have spent the evening together. Someone that meets me when it is convenient for him. Di I get taken out on dates no, do I get to meet his friends/family no. Can I call him when I want no. Its a laughable situation but a painful and confusing one none the less. The loss will be his, not mine. I am young, I am attractive, I am confident, currently studying to be a nurse, life looks good but theres always this part of me that kind quite put a stop to accepting his BS.

[DKT3]

3 hours ago, Nats_16 said:

@JimmyNorth thankyou for your perspectives. At what point was the lightning bulb moment when you thought if you didn't act you were going to lose her? and why did you keep her as OW for so long and not finish your marriage and be with her. Its such a mind boggling situation, one I would never wish upon anyone to enter. How do I get him to see that I am being completely serious when I say I have had enough without him turning nasty and telling me if I give up on him then he will never come looking for me again. Why cannot he just behave like an adult and agree to come and pursue me when he has finished this one part of his life and he is free and ready to start one with me. For me that is what I want him to do and every time I suggest it he says I am giving up on him and to give him time and sort his finances out. Surely the best place to start would be to sit his GF down and tell her he no longer wants to be with her.

You are clearly not getting this. He does not want to have a legitimate relationship with you,  he has exactly what he wants.  Your only option is accept the relationship for what it is, an affair or walk away.  You two have different expectations and you are the only one who doesn't see it.

[mark clemson]

Walking away, although difficult, spares you further distress once you process the break up emotionally. In addition, it allows you to start what is presumably a much healthier "normal" relationship with someone who isn't taken and who you can have fully. Overall, the current relationship clearly benefits him much more than you.

I would suggest full NC to help make this "complete", as every time you see him it will re-trigger your emotions to some extent. The deeper your feelings, the more any re-triggering interferes with moving on and forming a new relationship.

On a side note, I would say that:

On 4/19/2020 at 9:11 AM, Nats_16 said:

I would like him to stay where he is and for him to let me go in a non confrontational way so that one day we can maybe be friends but everytime I leave he gets nasty. Lose lose situation and I am sad that I will not even be able to have him as a friend as we get on so so well.

It's often difficult for former lovers to be friends due to the "emotional baggage". There are many people who look at it as not worth it and possibly he is one of them. Whatever he may think, for YOU the re-triggering issue will come into play. IMO best to go full NC and respond with a polite "not interested" and blocking if/when he contacts you further.

[JimmyNorth]

12 hours ago, Nats_16 said:

@JimmyNorth thankyou for your perspectives. At what point was the lightning bulb moment when you thought if you didn't act you were going to lose her? and why did you keep her as OW for so long and not finish your marriage and be with her. Its such a mind boggling situation, one I would never wish upon anyone to enter. How do I get him to see that I am being completely serious when I say I have had enough without him turning nasty and telling me if I give up on him then he will never come looking for me again. Why cannot he just behave like an adult and agree to come and pursue me when he has finished this one part of his life and he is free and ready to start one with me. For me that is what I want him to do and every time I suggest it he says I am giving up on him and to give him time and sort his finances out. Surely the best place to start would be to sit his GF down and tell her he no longer wants to be with her.

In my case, deep down inside I didn’t want to lose my OW. I was at odds with myself in my own mind about leaving my wife, even though I clearly had enough after many years marital stress.

You see, I was never the cheating type. I always had morals and would have liked to believe that I would do the right thing.  But, low and behold, my mind got swept away when I started having a affair with my OW. By that time my mind was in chaos, almost as if it was like a computer that was locked up, and continued living a double life. My OW was giving the love and affection I needed and I could leave my home situation and my wife drama free by just doing what I was doing. But it was actually taking a toll on my OW, wife and ME!!! I just wasn’t paying attention to it.

We all know, in life, something has to break eventually. These type of situations with stress involved WILL NOT last forever. Either the wife or the OW breaks.

Maybe you can try being the first one in this love triangle to make a detrimental move. Tell him you are going to start seeing other men. If he TRULY loves you, watch him move mountains after you start dating. Yes, he’ll get all pissed and say you’ll lose him, but watch after a few weeks or days and see how he comes running to you if he really want something with you!