do you just eventually give up?

[ZA Dater]

It must be lovely to have one of those attractive personalities, really it must.

Must be lovely to be a social butterfly to. Have the ability to flirt and actually get some sort of attention without having to seeming grovel for it. An incident this year pretty much summed everything up for me, a party (I don't really like these), absolutely nobody to talk to, I had nothing in common with any of these people, no common interests, nothing. I ended up leaving after a hour, it was all glam, very few singles and what singles there were, were not interested in me. Why bother hanging around.

Yet almost inevitably there is at least one outgoing, drinking, funny dude who can has virtually every single eating out his hand. I cant compete with that at all. No matter what version of myself I bring I cant compete with that. I can do everything people tell me here and still not compete with that.

No, to be honest I think most people just see me as a misfit and to them its more comfortable to go with the guy who fits in.

[gamon]

31 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

 to them its more comfortable to go with the guy who fits in.

And safer.

 

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Clearly I don't think the same way you do or share the same world which I could argue is not universal but for the sake of this I will agree with you, its universal.

I'm not trying to argue here is one one world view that works, it is what works for what you want.  Of course, if one is interested in loving and leaving them I'm not going to facilitate that, but I don't get that that is you.  I believe you are looking for an honest and genuinely deep relationship.  Hence why I take time responding.

I also see alot in your struggles to when I was younger, I was shy, and unsure and afraid of rejection.  It was a different world then though and social circles and in person personal socializing (house parties) was huge (we just didn't have the money or inclination to be going to clubs) so despite all my drawbacks that was able to date, have girlfriends (only 1 a time ), etc..

I would agree that apparently it seems one needs fairly universal qualities to actually enjoy any sort of success. You need confidence which is difficult to find when you just get kicked in the face, you can be shy because apparently that shows weakness, you need to be funny even if you aren't then you just pretend to be someone you aren't. Would you agree that most of it is just an act?

Not sure if you meant to say you can or can't be shy.  Here's the thing, different women want different things.  One woman's confident is another's arrogance.  To one shyness is weakness to another deepness and endearing.  It really only matters what the women you want want.  I can say I have never found a correlation between a woman's physical attractiveness and  how she weighs these things.   

Is it an act?  Certainly there is a whole industry set up to teach you how to act a certain way.  Sure people can fake things and act, otherwise all movies would suck and con men would never succeed.  However, such acting, even if good, never lasts.

I can say that for many people, or at least the ones I will spend time with and respect it is not an act.  Whatever they are comes genuinely from inside. 

I have seen guys charm and flirt and honestly I see such good acting its deserves an award, so much rubbish being spun in the hope she will laugh, smile and find him captivating. What if you don't trade on those things?

   Here's the thing, it may not be acting.   That is just them. although it still may be BS.  One can be captivating, without trading on BS.  And just because she is smiling and laughing doesn't mean that inside she is not thinking this guy is full of it.  Believe me.

Simply being able to articulate one's passions and engage the interest of others, or engage in a conversation about their passions with genuine curiosity and interest can be captivating, a boyish charm so to speak.  Nothing dishonest about it.

I'll tell you what I trade on, being honest so those larks don't come naturally to me and in fact having tried them before it didn't feel great about doing it either. However I did realise the more elaborate nonsense you can come up with the more apparently captivating one became.

   I would never suggest trading on anything but honesty.  There are though many different ways to convey it, how one tells the story of you.   The emotion behind it is important.  No matter how true, a narrative that comes off as chip on ones shoulder is rarely good. 

Certainly not everyone is great at that, and one can be very honest up front about that.  I suspect this is why you like more serious topics.  Nothing wrong with that...but I need to say that is my experience.  I want intelligent and intellectual women who love exploring an idea and even playing devils advocate.  I fully realize not all women are like that.  Now for me I have learned to talk their talk more because I like to connect with people and take it as a challenge.

Here is the thing when I go on a date I want to be me, not some fake version of myself. Sure I go and be the best version of me, the least shy the least awkward the most pleasant, the most engaging so I do try put my best foot forward.

  Exactly, that I agree with you on.  

Mostly though I find myself going on dates I shouldn't be going on because the people don't really interest me at all nor do I find them attractive. Thinking back over the past year the people who interested me the most were the ones I would have the lease success with but there was always something about them which made them stand out.

Now this is more the issue in some regards.   You never really know how interesting they are until you go on a date with them.  So that is just normal.

On the ones you want and can't succeed with what is it about them that stands out?  That is where world view comes in, is what attracts you her sharing your view (which would be a good omen for connection) or not?  And if so what is that view?  Those are the questions I'd ask myself.   

Perhaps some people are just luckier than others. Some have more universal personalities than other and some are more appealing than others. At least I can walk around and pretend I am one of those even if I am not.

Sure some people are more charming than others, I don't think charm is something you can pretend to have, if it is working you have it or can at least turn it one.  One can learn to be more personable though...yes through training like acting, but also more genuinely through how you see and interact with the world.

I suspect you mean more strutting around and signals of material status...yeah I've seen people do that, although that is where I can't help you as the women attracted to strutting (arrogance, in my view) and material status I take pains to filter out. 

[SumGuy]

56 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

An incident this year pretty much summed everything up for me, a party (I don't really like these), absolutely nobody to talk to, I had nothing in common with any of these people, no common interests, nothing. I ended up leaving after a hour, it was all glam, very few singles and what singles there were, were not interested in me. Why bother hanging around.

This has me thinking that you really do not have the trait where you take an interest in others.  In fact, it sounds like the exact opposite.  Also if this is your constant experience you need to be hanging around different people and go to different parties.   Maybe easier said than done, but where there is a will there is a way. 

[basil67]

 

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

You need confidence which is difficult to find when you just get kicked in the face, you can be shy because apparently that shows weakness, you need to be funny even if you aren't then you just pretend to be someone you aren't. Would you agree that most of it is just an act?

This face kicking you refer to:  Are people actually rude to you?    Or is it more about getting no hits on dating apps?   

The problem with shyness is not that it shows weakness, rather, it's about one being really difficult to talk to or connect with.    Also nobody would call me funny except for my husband.  And nobody would call him funny except me.   But the two of us crack each other up all the time with random stupidity.  You don't have to be funny to everyone, just the one that counts.  And with the one that counts, it doesn't have to be standard humour.  

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

I have seen guys charm and flirt and honestly I see such good acting its deserves an award, so much rubbish being spun in the hope she will laugh, smile and find him captivating. What if you don't trade on those things?

It's not acting.  It's instinct.  Much like how a peacock instinctively shows it's tail to get a mate or how a bower bird builds a beautiful nest for his lady.   Or how a rainbow lorikeet does his beautiful dance.   Those guys probably do get the cream of the crop. 

But yeah, not all guys do this stuff.  My hubby isn't charming or gifted at flirting.  But he's engaging, a great listener and we found our particular sense of humour very early on.   But hubby is like Ollie and I in that he would give someone a chance if they looked half way decent.

 

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Yet almost inevitably there is at least one outgoing, drinking, funny dude who can has virtually every single eating out his hand. I cant compete with that at all. No matter what version of myself I bring I cant compete with that. I can do everything people tell me here and still not compete with that.

...and most guys do not even try or even notice him.
At parties I never looked at  the "competition"
I never thought OMG that girl has every guy in here entranced I might as well go home.
I was looking for a guy who wanted ME, not a guy whose tongue was hanging out over someone else.
Not "every" guy is looking for the same thing, nor is every girl. These superficial party types are not the be all and end all for women looking for a real relationship.
These women want depth of character not  some guy showing off to entertain the masses.
Some women will pass on that outgoing, drinking, funny dude and I would probably have been one of them.
Stop looking at the funny dude and his "harem" and  try to engage with some of the onlookers, as that is where you are more likely to find "real" people.

Edited April 28, 2020 by elaine567

[Content]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

...and most guys do not even try or even notice him.
At parties I never looked at  the "competition"
I never thought OMG that girl has every guy in here entranced I might as well go home.
I was looking for a guy who wanted ME, not a guy whose tongue was hanging out over someone else.
Not "every" guy is looking for the same thing, nor is every girl. These superficial party types are not the be all and end all for women looking for a real relationship.
These women want depth of character not  some guy showing off to entertain the masses.
Some women will pass on that outgoing, drinking, funny dude and I would probably have been one of them.
Stop looking at the funny dude and his "harem" and  try to engage with some of the onlookers, as that is where you are more likely to find "real" people.

Yep not everyone is looking for the life of the party. People think if there not the best  looking most outgoing or whatever they don’t have a chance and it’s not true.

When  I was younger my friend got a lot of attention when we went out he was real good looking and at times I’d be jealous and feel like maybe I wasn’t attractive 

but it simply was that the women who were into me weren’t the type who approach guys at clubs or bars or who just went by looks.

Plus a lot of women he met and dated some turned out to be crazy.

The grass is always  greener.

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Content

[Interstellar]

You may not be the most outgoing person in the room but you have to make them ladies laugh, and let them be the hunter for once and let them chase you. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Interstellar

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Interstellar said:

You may not be the most outgoing person in the room but you have to make them ladies laugh, and let them be the hunter for once and let them chase you. 

Cannot think of one reason why they would chase me over anyone else in the room.

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, SumGuy said:

This has me thinking that you really do not have the trait where you take an interest in others.  In fact, it sounds like the exact opposite.  Also if this is your constant experience you need to be hanging around different people and go to different parties.   Maybe easier said than done, but where there is a will there is a way. 

Well when you greet people and they turn and walk away or ignore you, what is the point really? Fortunately I only go to one party a year and only because he is a close friend of mine.

[ZA Dater]

10 hours ago, elaine567 said:

...and most guys do not even try or even notice him.
At parties I never looked at  the "competition"
I never thought OMG that girl has every guy in here entranced I might as well go home.
I was looking for a guy who wanted ME, not a guy whose tongue was hanging out over someone else.
Not "every" guy is looking for the same thing, nor is every girl. These superficial party types are not the be all and end all for women looking for a real relationship.
These women want depth of character not  some guy showing off to entertain the masses.
Some women will pass on that outgoing, drinking, funny dude and I would probably have been one of them.
Stop looking at the funny dude and his "harem" and  try to engage with some of the onlookers, as that is where you are more likely to find "real" people.

The only way I try and rationalise a lack of success is to look at the guys who do enjoy success, what do they do that I don't, what character traits do they have that I don't. If someone wins at something there is usually reasons why so what is wrong with trying to understand them and then comparing oneself?

OLD works for me in the sense I don't need to put up with generally going to places I find unpleasant like bars and club and dare I say it hugely contrived Meet Up or singles groups. At the very least I can see what is out there.

Do I want a real relationship: I don't know, what I would like just once is mutual attraction.

Afraid to say when I look around you and I probably are living on different planets because unfortunately the people I have chased landed up with anything but people who character, am I saying I am better than those guys no, do I think those girls can do better, yes I do once again I am not saying I am that better.

Ultimately I think people just get to a stage usually around 33-35 where its a case of "that will do, I cant find any better".

[ZA Dater]

11 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Not sure if you meant to say you can or can't be shy.  Here's the thing, different women want different things.  One woman's confident is another's arrogance.  To one shyness is weakness to another deepness and endearing.  It really only matters what the women you want want.  I can say I have never found a correlation between a woman's physical attractiveness and  how she weighs these things.   

Here's the thing, it may not be acting.   That is just them. although it still may be BS.  One can be captivating, without trading on BS.  And just because she is smiling and laughing doesn't mean that inside she is not thinking this guy is full of it.  Believe me.

Simply being able to articulate one's passions and engage the interest of others, or engage in a conversation about their passions with genuine curiosity and interest can be captivating, a boyish charm so to speak.  Nothing dishonest about it.

 

I would never suggest trading on anything but honesty.  There are though many different ways to convey it, how one tells the story of you.   The emotion behind it is important.  No matter how true, a narrative that comes off as chip on ones shoulder is rarely good. 

Certainly not everyone is great at that, and one can be very honest up front about that.  I suspect this is why you like more serious topics.  Nothing wrong with that...but I need to say that is my experience.  I want intelligent and intellectual women who love exploring an idea and even playing devils advocate.  I fully realize not all women are like that.  Now for me I have learned to talk their talk more because I like to connect with people and take it as a challenge. 

Now this is more the issue in some regards.   You never really know how interesting they are until you go on a date with them.  So that is just normal.

On the ones you want and can't succeed with what is it about them that stands out?  That is where world view comes in, is what attracts you her sharing your view (which would be a good omen for connection) or not?  And if so what is that view?  Those are the questions I'd ask myself.   

Sure some people are more charming than others, I don't think charm is something you can pretend to have, if it is working you have it or can at least turn it one.  One can learn to be more personable though...yes through training like acting, but also more genuinely through how you see and interact with the world.

I suspect you mean more strutting around and signals of material status...yeah I've seen people do that, although that is where I can't help you as the women attracted to strutting (arrogance, in my view) and material status I take pains to filter out. 

Ok so up front I like outgoing ladies and  I like confident ladies. Now tell me how many of those will like a shy awkward guy?

What normally stands out is confidence, intelligence, very good worldly knowledge, combination of looks and intellect, motivated, well spoken, classy, interesting. My walking around comment was more me simply going easy on myself and not letting the lack of dates bother me to the point where it starts to impact the things I do enjoy.

Unfortunately where I live it would seem material objects are also fairly helpful when it comes to attracting dates so one has to once again compete against that but perhaps that's universally true.

Here's thing and my thinking.

I make and effort to in my opinion look good, to keep fit, to be the best person I can be but to what end really, am I suppose to bend over backward and grovel, for a time I did that and the results were no better. Yes, I look serious, yes I seldom smile, all big minus points but yes I am honest, yes I have integrity and yes I'd probably be the most loyal person they would meet. SO as with everyone its a game of pros and cons, how to try and match the pros and market them effectively enough that someone actually appreciates them. I put a lot into the rare dates I go on with people I really like but there is absolutely never ever any follow up or inclination for them to meet me again. Asking them why is pointless so I then resort todays of self analysis which gets me nowhere.

So while I am criticised here for having the views I do, unfortunately they are the result of simply never getting any really worthwhile feedback never mind any reasonable level of success.

Then of course I am up against the player type guys and its even harder to compete with those because they have limitless charm, they radiate confidence and on the face of it appear to offer what many ladies find impossible to say no to. My whole "good guy" approach doesn't work.

One date I had last year actually told me "you need to try find younger girls as experienced as you to date so you can gain experience at dating because most don't want to date an inexperienced guy" for what its worth this date was 37yo and I did like her.

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Ok so up front I like outgoing ladies and  I like confident ladies. Now tell me how many of those will like a shy awkward guy?

What normally stands out is confidence, intelligence, very good worldly knowledge, combination of looks and intellect, motivated, well spoken, classy, interesting.

So when people talk about connection and compatibility it starts with commonalities. What do you have in common with these women? From how you describe yourself and them, you’re going after women that are completely different from yourself.

 

There’s this old show called Freaks and Geeks and one of the characters, a geek, has this crush on a cheerleader. The cheerleader of course is dating a football player. But at some point they break up and she decides to date the geek. So they go out on a date and the geek realizes, after crushing on this girl forever, that they have nothing in common! So he breaks up with her. 
 

Your definition of “going after the best” is wrong. Instead of defining best by traits a person has, instead you should be defining best by the quality of the relationship you want. Having things in common with a partner is great starting point. 

[ZA Dater]

5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

So when people talk about connection and compatibility it starts with commonalities. What do you have in common with these women? From how you describe yourself and them, you’re going after women that are completely different from yourself.

 

There’s this old show called Freaks and Geeks and one of the characters, a geek, has this crush on a cheerleader. The cheerleader of course is dating a football player. But at some point they break up and she decides to date the geek. So they go out on a date and the geek realizes, after crushing on this girl forever, that they have nothing in common! So he breaks up with her. 
 

Your definition of “going after the best” is wrong. Instead of defining best by traits a person has, instead you should be defining best by the quality of the relationship you want. Having things in common with a partner is great starting point. 

Absolutely, it would be nice yes to meet people I have something in common with and I have albeit very rarely. The date I had last year was probably the closest I have to come this recently. I like completely different because I like the challenge that comes with that, I am forced to adopt a different approach, forced to put in more effort in that chase than I would ordinarily put in.

At the end of the day I would potentially compromise and settle for a good friend if I could find the qualities I liked most but she wouldn't date me. Sure, people wouldn't agree with me but for me I think it would be better than dating someone I date simply because well she likes but I don't really like that much about her.

The reality is I have basically nothing in common with anyone so the fact I cant find any common ground does not bother me as much as it once did. Or I have just got so used to being alone.

[Emilie Jolie]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The reality is I have basically nothing in common with anyone

Please read yourself back. Do you genuinely believe you have not one thing in common with anyone at all?

I find this statement to be at the same time deeply moving - to the point it's making me a bit teary-eyed, I'm not going to lie - and really hard to believe. I'm sure (I hope?) you're just venting here but this is some serious stuff, my friend.

[SumGuy]

On 4/29/2020 at 5:39 AM, ZA Dater said:

Ok so up front I like outgoing ladies and  I like confident ladies. Now tell me how many of those will like a shy awkward guy?

Yes! It's like half the dates I got when young and shy.  Looking back I really can't believe how obvious they had to get with me.  Then again these are women who had a chance to speak with me.  I'm certain some may have been smitten ate first sight but what is more likely they became smitten when talking with me.   Since I was so shy I just had conversations, not flirting or trying to hit on them.   

In fact confident women are about the only ones who are going to make the first move, almost by definition.   What you call "charming guys" may come across as arrogant, especially ones that spin tales.   

Quote

So while I am criticised here for having the views I do, unfortunately they are the result of simply never getting any really worthwhile feedback never mind any reasonable level of success.

   My fear is you are in a self perpetuating cycle, that the model you have constructed of the world, while consistent with your observations, is not the only one and in fact is one that is not doing well for you.   It's almost like you have a 1950s mindset about what all women want...I say free your mind. 

Have whatever views you want (as long as they don;t involve hurting others), but you are here seeking peoples advice and opinions on your views and approach.  My opinion and view is that your views are off (not an accurate enough model of reality) and are not serving you well (and in fact holding you back). 

If your views are accurate, or you just wish to keep them, then it sounds like you need to change yourself or find a match maker to match you with the woman for you.  Either way, if you are determined to go down the path seeking women who are primarily interested in looks and money and players, it will be a hard road indeed.  And before you say you are not only interested in woman who are primarily only interested in looks. money and players...if that is all you see, that is all you will find... and you will be hard pressed to understand or even enter the world of women who do not think that way.

Quote

Then of course I am up against the player type guys and its even harder to compete with those because they have limitless charm, they radiate confidence and on the face of it appear to offer what many ladies find impossible to say no to. My whole "good guy" approach doesn't work.

Like others have said, not all women want the players, there are plenty of attractive women who don't in my opinion and experience.  Then again i am that guy hanging on the edge of the party with a woman where we are both commenting on what a buffoon those player guys are...but player guys are the oddity in the social circles I partook and partake in and only encountered them in any numbers when moving outside of those circles.

Your "good guy" approach sounds more like the "nice guy" approach.  Nice on the outside but expectant on the inside, is the nicest way to put it.    A true good guy or nice guy in my opinion lets rejection roll off his back, it doesn't result in a "it's hopeless" philosophy or chip away at his shoulder.  Nice and courteous behavior done with the expectation of reward is neither nice nor courteous, just a civilized form of transactional thinking.  That is why the stereotypical; "nice guy" is not consider nice, and is kind of scary as things that get bottled up can explode.

I tend to use the term "good man" for men who are truly nice, honest, loyal and have integrity.  How they approach set backs and rejection is very different.  One could simply read Kipling's "If"  for a primer.   Frankly, serious men that women are attracted to, in my opinion, are a lot more of an emotional rock, they count their blessings in the big picture, not just the sex or relationship picture.  Once one realizes their good fortune in the big picture the woes of dating are water off your back.   It doesn't mean one can't feel the need or miss and want dates and relationships, it does mean that the lack of success does not color one's world view.  I think you have much good fortune in your life, just look at the shanty towns where you live, you have it better than everyone that lives their.  

Yes there are people in this world who have the sh*t end of the stick, who rightly live in fear and despair (I'm thinking almost all of North Korea and many countries if you are the ethnic minority)...they number in the billions.  If you are one I apologize, and you rightly should be vexed by your life situation...but I doubt it.

Quote

One date I had last year actually told me "you need to try find younger girls as experienced as you to date so you can gain experience at dating because most don't want to date an inexperienced guy" for what its worth this date was 37yo and I did like her.

My take, and this is only my take, is the experience she is referring to is not physical or sexual, it is interactive.  If you are stoic and rarely smile on dates and have a hard time being emotionally engaged (even just genuine interest) in your date's thing (even if not yours) one can come across as stiff instead of serious or deep.  There is a difference between still waters that run deep and stagnant ones.

Edited April 30, 2020 by SumGuy

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Yes! It's like half the dates I got when young and shy.  Looking back I really can't believe how obvious they had to get with me.  Then again these are women who had a chance to speak with me.  I'm certain some may have been smitten ate first sight but what is more likely they became smitten when talking with me.   Since I was so shy I just had conversations, not flirting or trying to hit on them.   

In fact confident women are about the only ones who are going to make the first move, almost by definition.   What you call "charming guys" may come across as arrogant, especially ones that spin tales.   

   My fear is you are in a self perpetuating cycle, that the model you have constructed of the world, while consistent with your observations, is not the only one and in fact is one that is not doing well for you.   It's almost like you have a 1950s mindset about what all women want...I say free your mind. 

Have whatever views you want (as long as they don;t involve hurting others), but you are here seeking peoples advice and opinions on your views and approach.  My opinion and view is that your views are off (not an accurate enough model of reality) and are not serving you well (and in fact holding you back). 

If your views are accurate, or you just wish to keep them, then it sounds like you need to change yourself or find a match maker to match you with the woman for you.  Either way, if you are determined to go down the path seeking women who are primarily interested in looks and money and players, it will be a hard road indeed.  And before you say you are not only interested in woman who are primarily only interested in looks. money and players...if that is all you see, that is all you will find... and you will be hard pressed to understand or even enter the world of women who do not think that way.

Like others have said, not all women want the players, there are plenty of attractive women who don't in my opinion and experience.  Then again i am that guy hanging on the edge of the party with a woman where we are both commenting on what a buffoon those player guys are...but player guys are the oddity in the social circles I partook and partake in and only encountered them in any numbers when moving outside of those circles.

Your "good guy" approach sounds more like the "nice guy" approach.  Nice on the outside but expectant on the inside, is the nicest way to put it.    A true good guy or nice guy in my opinion lets rejection roll off his back, it doesn't result in a "it's hopeless" philosophy or chip away at his shoulder.  Nice and courteous behavior done with the expectation of reward is neither nice nor courteous, just a civilized form of transactional thinking.  That is why the stereotypical; "nice guy" is not consider nice, and is kind of scary as things that get bottled up can explode.

I tend to use the term "good man" for men who are truly nice, honest, loyal and have integrity.  How they approach set backs and rejection is very different.  One could simply read Kipling's "If"  for a primer.   Frankly, serious men that women are attracted to, in my opinion, are a lot more of an emotional rock, they count their blessings in the big picture, not just the sex or relationship picture.  Once one realizes their good fortune in the big picture the woes of dating are water off your back.   It doesn't mean one can't feel the need or miss and want dates and relationships, it does mean that the lack of success does not color one's world view.  I think you have much good fortune in your life, just look at the shanty towns where you live, you have it better than everyone that lives their.  

Yes there are people in this world who have the sh*t end of the stick, who rightly live in fear and despair (I'm thinking almost all of North Korea and many countries if you are the ethnic minority)...they number in the billions.  If you are one I apologize, and you rightly should be vexed by your life situation...but I doubt it.

My take, and this is only my take, is the experience she is referring to is not physical or sexual, it is interactive.  If you are stoic and rarely smile on dates and have a hard time being emotionally engaged (even just genuine interest) in your date's thing (even if not yours) one can come across as stiff instead of serious or deep.  There is a difference between still waters that run deep and stagnant ones.

I think that best thing I ever did was to completely seperate dating from other aspects of life and not let it consume me. While it bothers me I don't let it consume me because there is always some other challenge to focus on however there is also a sense sometimes that life is passing me by when it comes to dating, a sense the options I have become less and less desirable.

I have no issue interacting, my job is largely people centric and focussed around professionals so I wouldn't be able to do it if I wasn't able to interact. No I believe her issue was largely one of not reading body language and probably not chasing. I just enjoy the focus work gives me, the challenge it gives me so it's very difficult to go on a date where I don't see similar. People need to be moving forward in my view.

Make no mistake I think a lot about most things, probably overthink. I have just learnt what interests me and what doesn't, the unfortunate reality is I look around me and sure it might be wrong but I just don't see how any particular good trait I have is in the least helpful with darting. 

I wouldn't say rejection bothers me because it's all I have ever known, it does make my question certain things though. It has coloured me to some extent but again I'd like to think people understand that. 

What people simply don't in understand is why a 35 yo guy has never had a relationship, for many that's a red flag. I dunno I look at the whole picture, maybe the answer is just to forget the idea, grovel and hope someone takes pity, park my morals and just pay for the fake relationship, lower my view point and try convince myself I like someone I don't or simply live vicariously through people I know who date the sort of people I like.

[ZA Dater]

20 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Yes! It's like half the dates I got when young and shy.  Looking back I really can't believe how obvious they had to get with me.  Then again these are women who had a chance to speak with me.  I'm certain some may have been smitten ate first sight but what is more likely they became smitten when talking with me.   Since I was so shy I just had conversations, not flirting or trying to hit on them.   

In fact confident women are about the only ones who are going to make the first move, almost by definition.   What you call "charming guys" may come across as arrogant, especially ones that spin tales.   

My fear is you are in a self perpetuating cycle, that the model you have constructed of the world, while consistent with your observations, is not the only one and in fact is one that is not doing well for you.   It's almost like you have a 1950s mindset about what all women want...I say free your mind. 

Have whatever views you want (as long as they don;t involve hurting others), but you are here seeking peoples advice and opinions on your views and approach.  My opinion and view is that your views are off (not an accurate enough model of reality) and are not serving you well (and in fact holding you back). 

If your views are accurate, or you just wish to keep them, then it sounds like you need to change yourself or find a match maker to match you with the woman for you.  Either way, if you are determined to go down the path seeking women who are primarily interested in looks and money and players, it will be a hard road indeed.  And before you say you are not only interested in woman who are primarily only interested in looks. money and players...if that is all you see, that is all you will find... and you will be hard pressed to understand or even enter the world of women who do not think that way.

Like others have said, not all women want the players, there are plenty of attractive women who don't in my opinion and experience.  Then again i am that guy hanging on the edge of the party with a woman where we are both commenting on what a buffoon those player guys are...but player guys are the oddity in the social circles I partook and partake in and only encountered them in any numbers when moving outside of those circles.

Your "good guy" approach sounds more like the "nice guy" approach.  Nice on the outside but expectant on the inside, is the nicest way to put it.    A true good guy or nice guy in my opinion lets rejection roll off his back, it doesn't result in a "it's hopeless" philosophy or chip away at his shoulder.  Nice and courteous behavior done with the expectation of reward is neither nice nor courteous, just a civilized form of transactional thinking.  That is why the stereotypical; "nice guy" is not consider nice, and is kind of scary as things that get bottled up can explode.

I tend to use the term "good man" for men who are truly nice, honest, loyal and have integrity.  How they approach set backs and rejection is very different.  One could simply read Kipling's "If"  for a primer.   Frankly, serious men that women are attracted to, in my opinion, are a lot more of an emotional rock, they count their blessings in the big picture, not just the sex or relationship picture.  Once one realizes their good fortune in the big picture the woes of dating are water off your back.   It doesn't mean one can't feel the need or miss and want dates and relationships, it does mean that the lack of success does not color one's world view.  I think you have much good fortune in your life, just look at the shanty towns where you live, you have it better than everyone that lives their.  

Yes there are people in this world who have the sh*t end of the stick, who rightly live in fear and despair (I'm thinking almost all of North Korea and many countries if you are the ethnic minority)...they number in the billions.  If you are one I apologize, and you rightly should be vexed by your life situation...but I doubt it.

My take, and this is only my take, is the experience she is referring to is not physical or sexual, it is interactive.  If you are stoic and rarely smile on dates and have a hard time being emotionally engaged (even just genuine interest) in your date's thing (even if not yours) one can come across as stiff instead of serious or deep.  There is a difference between still waters that run deep and stagnant ones.

I re read this a few times and bolded a few points.

Why you think they became smitten with you? Do you think it was perhaps your personality, a smile, a light hearted approach?

Sure, they do make the first move but very rarely in my experience, this is more likely to happen if the guy is deemed high value. Again my personal observation.

Sure, its not the only one but 20 years of trying to date has yet to reveal any other type of world unless you count single moms chasing me or people who for whatever reason think I might find them attractive but I would clearly not, I am not going to expand on this but you are an intelligent guy so you can figure it out...

Do tell me what women want? When I say players I include so called "fun" guys, basically the opposite of me in most respects. The unfortunate thing about the country I live in is alcohol is an almost universal social norm, don't partake you and might as well not exist, so when don't partake well they just causes other issues and honestly I am just tired of putting myself in that situation over and over again and having to explain myself yet again. Can people not accept my choice, seemingly not and its held against me time and time again.

Trust me I expect nothing from dates, if I did I would just go transactional dating from the off. However I do think many women look at dating as transactional, especially those on Tinder, match with the hottest guy, have some fun and well hopefully he is nice enough. I have no issue with that but it makes a LOT harder for guys who aren't looking for one moment of rolling around.

No, it certainly has not coloured my view but its opened my eyes and given me quite a steely resolve. My eyes were opened when I realised there are really quality people out there but I am unlikely to ever be able to date any of them, even my own friends tried to set me up with people they thought were superb but when I asked them why they wouldn't date that person they were silent. That's the sort of nonsense I need to put up with. Or they try set me up as some sort of pity project which is even worse. When they can actually help with someone I do like they are nowhere to be seen.

Another thing you need to understand I am fairly stuck between two extremes

1: The music festival trance party people

2: The church goers

The former is where most of the attractive ladies are but I am really not into that. Overly religious people don't interest me either.

Maybe if I had grown up normally and not challenged conforming my luck would be better.

[jspice]

47 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

The unfortunate thing about the country I live in is alcohol is an almost universal social norm, don't partake you and might as well not exist, so when don't partake well they just causes other issues and honestly I am just tired of putting myself in that situation over and over again and having to explain myself yet again. Can people not accept my choice, seemingly not and its held against me time and time again.

 

Please stop lying about this. 
A more honest thing to say is “The people I choose to spend time with treat me like I don’t exist when I tell them I don’t drink.”

You’re misleading people. 

[SumGuy]

5 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I re read this a few times and bolded a few points.

Why you think they became smitten with you? Do you think it was perhaps your personality, a smile, a light hearted approach?

Sure, they do make the first move but very rarely in my experience, this is more likely to happen if the guy is deemed high value. Again my personal observation.

I have been complimented on my smile.  A genuine smile is an easy thing, I get you don;t smile much...and for the women I am interested in that is a huge turn off, but...I recall in my life met a woman who said I smiled too much...unsolicited advice by the way...whatever I say was not interested in her and I think that threw her as she was physically attractive.  Long way f saying I suspect there are women out there who like the stoic type.

You say personality like it is this difficult thing to have, like being born into obscene wealth.  It's not.  How you interact with others is something you can work on, very easily if you want to.   In the world of people who have to get in front of a camera there is a whole industry around this, acting is the ultimate example of how much control one can have over how you express yourself.

In short I am certain personality had a lot to do with it, in that they liked I was not hitting on them, just talking to them like I would with anyone.  

I don't know if this is personality, but women then and now like my intelligence (again not all women are in to this), which if you listen and car about the other person's views (as a person not as some one to date or get in bed with) leads to great conversation and it is easy to make them laugh.

 

Quote

Sure, its not the only one but 20 years of trying to date has yet to reveal any other type of world unless you count single moms chasing me or people who for whatever reason think I might find them attractive but I would clearly not, I am not going to expand on this but you are an intelligent guy so you can figure it out...

I get you have not encountered any other or seen the others, not knowing ZA can't really say if the sub-cultures I've experienced even exist there or to what extent.  Can say the dating culture world you experience is but a fraction of the US dating world..although I have seen and met many men who are stuck in thinking it is all about looks, money, being a palyer, etc. in the US.   My experience with ZA is limited (as I think have posted before)  to well educated white male professionals, whose world is nothing like what you describe...they are not great looking but are easy going, open minded and married with kids.   And some very intelligent black men who luckily got out but could not go back (this is in the 80s) unless they wanted to end up in a jail cell and disappear.

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Do tell me what women want? When I say players I include so called "fun" guys, basically the opposite of me in most respects.

I can't tell you what "Women" want.  The is no one answer...that is half the point keep trying to make.  I can tell you what the women I want appear to want...and perhaps can tell you what the women I don't want appear to want but that is about it.  I can tell you that what you think it is all about is incomplete, inaccurate and misleading you.   It appears to keep leading you to the same dead end.

In you start including things like "fun" that is so vague you can sweep anything under that rug.  Also different people find different things fun.  I can say most Americans are baffled by the appeal of Cricket, for me when I hear the Cricket scores it is like some coded transmission...which I do find fascinating.    So saying you can''t have success because you are not  "fun" is just a cop out.  It's more accurate to say almost no one wants someone who rains on their parade, who is just a negative Ned, who kills conversations...and to expect people to is ridiculous and arrogant and childish.

Quote

The unfortunate thing about the country I live in is alcohol is an almost universal social norm, don't partake you and might as well not exist, so when don't partake well they just causes other issues and honestly I am just tired of putting myself in that situation over and over again and having to explain myself yet again. Can people not accept my choice, seemingly not and its held against me time and time again.

Really, maybe that is one guy from ZA I know here doesn't drink.  I don't know ZA but even in AU where I think they start drinking beer before they can walk (just kidding AU folks) not drinking doesn't get you ostracized, but may make you the designated driver.

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Trust me I expect nothing from dates, if I did I would just go transactional dating from the off. However I do think many women look at dating as transactional, especially those on Tinder, match with the hottest guy, have some fun and well hopefully he is nice enough. I have no issue with that but it makes a LOT harder for guys who aren't looking for one moment of rolling around.

Forget Tinder.  Just really drop it as the benchmark of OLD, that you continue to focus on it is part of the reason I say you are stuck.

I have to disagree that you expect nothing from dates, just from reading your posts.   You expect a lot from your date it seems for it to even be enjoyable...even the wrong accent can throw you off.   Have you considered that maybe you are not as open minded and non-expectant as you think you are?  That is very different than expecting it will suck or she won't like you because it always has been that way for you...that is certainly a colored world view and a chip on ones shoulder.

Quote

No, it certainly has not coloured my view but its opened my eyes and given me quite a steely resolve.

Have to say you are good with words and great at doubling down.    I have rarely met a person who looks through the world through brown colored glasses say anything other than they are "telling it like it is" or the more red pill "opened my eyes."  What is your steely resolve? To double down on things that are not working, to become even more morose? 

Steely resolve?  That would be you realize you are off in some key social skill, so off you can't even see it or if you do you react in a defensive way to minimize the need or to denigrate the basic social skill.  

If you were really interested in others, and a good guy, you would not be reluctant to work on it and realize just because others communicate differently doesn't make them wrong or shallow, that there is a huge span between the shallow and "player" Mr. Charming communication and where you are at.

If you are really interested in others then you would work to learn how to effectively communicate with them, that doesn't mean you have to change who you are or what you believe (unless you believe everyone should adapt to you).

Quote

My eyes were opened when I realised there are really quality people out there but I am unlikely to ever be able to date any of them, even my own friends tried to set me up with people they thought were superb but when I asked them why they wouldn't date that person they were silent. That's the sort of nonsense I need to put up with. Or they try set me up as some sort of pity project which is even worse. When they can actually help with someone I do like they are nowhere to be seen.

Whatever man, seems like they at least try.  How do you respond if your friends say something negative about you?   After a point if one just keeps doing the same things and keeps bemoaning it people stop engaging with it, even friends.  if they are not answering your questions about why you are not dating her or why they are not helping you with someone else it is likely that they are trepidatious on how you will respond. 

 

Quote

Another thing you need to understand I am fairly stuck between two extremes

1: The music festival trance party people

2: The church goers

The former is where most of the attractive ladies are but I am really not into that. Overly religious people don't interest me either.

Maybe if I had grown up normally and not challenged conforming my luck would be better.

Maybe ZA really is like that, but I suspect it is not and that is a perfect example of being stuck in black and white thinking.

 

Just how abnormal was your childhood?   If that is the basis for your difficulty, a therapist and not on-line forum will be of greater help.

In the US there are multiple subcultures that challenge "conformity," (or at least by that I mean materialistic culture,a s seen on TV) in fact most everyone believes they are not conformist.  Conformity to me is not just actions but belief.  It seem to me you have conformed to the what I view as a materialistic, transactional narrative about what women want.   

I can say I have never conformed to the what women want narrative as seen on TV, which is basically the same to me as your world view, and was told over and over again about how it would hold me back.  Not just when young but even now on-line.  Luckily I didn't buy it then. 

If your brand off challenging conformity is just not getting along with anyone, never yielding on or trying to communicate in a way they understand, that sounds like misanthropy.  Yah that kind of non-conformity is inherently designed to keep people at bay, to self fulfill the prophecy that it is all sh*t.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by SumGuy
tried to fix messed up quoting, no luck.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, SumGuy said:

 

Whatever man, seems like they at least try.  How do you respond if your friends say something negative about you?   After a point if one just keeps doing the same things and keeps bemoaning it people stop engaging with it, even friends.  if they are not answering your questions about why you are not dating her or why they are not helping you with someone else it is likely that they are trepidatious on how you will respond. 

 

Ok I will make this fairly simple and outline exactly what my dating strategy is.

1: Show good manners, open doors etc.

2: Start the date of with a smile and try convey relaxed body language (no folding arms, hand facing upward not downward)

3: Compliment her

4: Try to make her feel at ease by coming up with something light and funny

5: Take an interest in her, try and find out the things she likes, the adventures she may have had, what work she does

6: Try and let the conversation flow so it doesn't become an interview but she needs to the actually contribute to the conversation.

7: I will smile at appropriate times and laugh if I can find something to laugh about even if I have to make a good about myself, embarrassing moments etc.

8: I try to project as much confidence as I can.

I don't believe there is a lot wrong with this strategy where it tends to fail is when the conversation doesn't flow at all and its me trying to steer the conversation, which if I don't there is just silence, very awkward. Almost NEVER am I asked anything about myself at all, maybe this is normal, I don't know. Sometimes I will offer up some information, maybe mention I am writing a novel, maybe mention I enjoy going for lunch at wineries. I am very, very careful not to oversell and err on the side of remaining modest. My point is if the person is someone I find attractive I will actually try to engage with them, again these are dates off OLD.

I don't believe I have any issues with communicating with others I do believe I simply don't offer what they are looking for, that seems to be the bottom line. Which means I then try and seek out people where I might have something in common, like the political analyst I met last year, fascinating and engaging date that was and I enjoyed spending time with here, the au pair I went out with after that, well I didn't really enjoy that date at all.

What I am off at? Does it bother me when I meet people who speak poorly, yes it does, does it bother me when I meet apathetic people, yes it does. Will I sit down with either, sure I might if only to try and learn a new perspective or idea. Who knows maybe they don't like my accent. There are many reasons I could be rejected, the few commons ones I have heard usually involved experience, confidence and shyness.

The most true thing of all is I have nowhere to meet people, absolutely nowhere at all. That's probably the biggest problem of all. Work is a blessing because it takes up enough of my life to almost render dating a non issue but like most people on this earth when I feel lonely I feel very lonely and when it comes to holidays and birthdays I don't really celebrate either, the latter mostly because its a graphic reminder of how few people I have in my life.

As for these friends, well I don't know how sincere their efforts are or what is said behind my back besides "yeh he will get to 40 and still not been laid" which makes me feel even more hopeless. Or they trick me to go to a strip club which was frankly terrible as it offered all the falseness which I detest. For a few years I went out to bars and clubs on my own, sat the bar got not attention at all, looked around me and realised this wasn't my scene but asked myself if I was the only one at the venue who didn't actually want to be there but was there, well because everyone else was there.

The irony of all of this is from time to time with a friend I get very close to what I imagine dating would be like, I get along really well with her, we talk about everything, she is there for me I am there for her, its completely transparent, we do some joint work together and it just great to spend time with her in that context. She challenges me to be a better version of me, pulls me up for being dumb at times, smiles at me, laughs with and at me. In some respects I think she is around to show me how nice things can be. However we will never be more than friends and that's ok, she deserves to be happy which she is with her guy and I am happy with I get to spend time with her. The point being she takes an interest in me, few dates ever do, heck few even ask me how I am.

What you need to get is that things you maybe take for granted are things I don't, for example having a great breakfast with someone, great conversation with someone I really like, really connecting, laughing, smiling, for me those are very rare and I can recall almost all of them, this is what I am searching for. So yes it hurt a lot when I find people I do get along with and it does not work, well it never works really, however as you mentioned I either let it define me or I let it wash off me, I choose the latter with the proviso I offer up less of myself the next time I meet someone, give less of my personality unless I am sure I find them attractive.

You cannot begin to imagine how disappointing it is to never be able to actually get a positive outcome from a date, for me that's date 2 mostly. So I sink deeper into work and things I can focus on, things I can work out where I can seen progress, challenges to keep me occupied.

People have been saying negative things about me most of my life so frankly very few comments really bother me, which is also why I can look at many things dispassionately often in business the worst decisions are made with raw emotion and no facts, I work out the facts of a situation, remove the emotion and make the decision.

I have a laundry list of dating regrets, lots actually, situations I messed up but a lot of those situations were ones where I would have need to play some sort of advantage and I wasn't comfortable doing that.

My view is a lot of the lack of success is because what would a date really do with me? I am not conventionally fun in that I'll drink 4 beers and talk rubbish, I wont go to trance parties, music festivals so what actually would be in it for them with me and I cannot really answer that question but what I have probably concluded is as pathetic as it sounds I am a good "rock" and "problem solver" in every instance where I have been able to befriend a lady its because of those two attributes.

[Fair]

All I can say is, online dating, if done long enough, will make you want to commit suicide. That's a joke, but seriously, it is NOT GOOD FOR YOUR MENTAL HEALTH. Rather like Facebook. 

There must be someone in real life who could introduce you to someone...  I think real life is still the best way to go.

 

 

[basil67]

ZA, your list of what you do on a date is perfect.   Of those who can't hold up their end of the conversation, I guess it means they are single for a reason.   

[ZA Dater]

54 minutes ago, basil67 said:

ZA, your list of what you do on a date is perfect.   Of those who can't hold up their end of the conversation, I guess it means they are single for a reason.   

That's the thing I try do all those things when I go on a date but even if it does goes well the outcome is always really the same

[simpycurious]

10 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

That's the thing I try do all those things when I go on a date but even if it does goes well the outcome is always really the same

ZA, you seem diligent and more often than not diligent folks achieve what they want. I think you will as well.  You are gonna find an absolute knock out with a good heart.  Just keep plugging along and do not feel down about not having found her YET.