do you just eventually give up?

[Weezy1973]

10 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

That feels sad...

And it’s not true for every guy. Everybody’s different. I would say that if someone is repulsed then there is no hope of ever being attracted. But as I’ve said many times, someone can easily start as neutral and then become more attractive as the connection grows.

 

I mean I think most people have experienced a range of attraction right? It’s not just yes or no? Lots of shades of gray...

[Emilie Jolie]

On the looks thing, I assume people who have been using OLD as the main or only recourse to find a partner may be more focused on 'looks' in general since most of the time you go by a few photos and some random metrics.  I have never done OLD nor ever will, so for me attraction is first and foremost  firmly a 3D thing; the physical attraction is not based solely on 'looks' - it's more about a sexy voice or a twinkle in the eye that shows he is not self-conscious and doesn't take himself seriously, than about any metric or eye colour or whatever.  Everything else (intellectual curiosity, emotional intelligence, basic manners, a healthy, positive outlook on life, financially solvent, good relationship with family, healthy mind and body generally) is just as important. Most men (people) I have met go with the same criteria, at least in my age-range (40+) and social circle. Yeah, there's the odd super shallow person who will only base themselves on looks, but they are not the majority by a long shot.

OLD is one avenue to meet people; one of many. I would consider someone who only uses that to be a little bit on the red-flag-y side of things, however well they present in writing, or what they look like, or what their backstory is. I get that we all live crazy busy lives under normal circumstances but if the work/life balance is so skewed that you can't find anyone at all ever to meet in 3D in years of trying to date, something is amiss.

I know for having friends who've done them that some dating apps offer the option of going to 'mixers' as I believe they are called, which is basically a social event where local singles registered to the dating agency (or company, or whatever, not entirely sure how this works, I've not looked into it) meet and mingle together. Would you consider that, ZA? (this probably has been suggested before, but I'm not familiar with every element of your history, sorry!).

 

 

[miranda561]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

No you're wrong. I have become attracted to a man I previously found unattractive.   You cannot speak for all.

 

No you misunderstood. 

I meant unfortunate for men that cant see beyond appearance and miss out on a good woman  😂  and unfortunate for women who are in that position

Edited May 16, 2020 by miranda561

[miranda561]

8 hours ago, Trail Blazer said:

Of course, however I think women can be attracted to men for attributes other than looks, more so than men can for women.  The guy just has to have something to compensate, i.e. he's extremely intelligent/charismatic/good provider etc. 

These attributes are still important for men, besides, perhaps, the latter as it's more the male's domain to provide - however, I don't believe they overcome looks in terms of eliciting sexual attraction.

I'm generalizing here, but with women deriving attraction on a more emotional level than men, it stands to reason that men have more scope to be attractive to women than vice versa.  However, through OLD, this generally can't be realized.

I know women can overlook a man's appearance a lot more than men can overlook a woman's appearance. 

The Op here is a prime example.

Edited May 16, 2020 by miranda561

[miranda561]

3 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

On the looks thing, I assume people who have been using OLD as the main or only recourse to find a partner may be more focused on 'looks' in general since most of the time you go by a few photos and some random metrics.  I have never done OLD nor ever will, so for me attraction is first and foremost  firmly a 3D thing; the physical attraction is not based solely on 'looks' - it's more about a sexy voice or a twinkle in the eye that shows he is not self-conscious and doesn't take himself seriously, than about any metric or eye colour or whatever.  Everything else (intellectual curiosity, emotional intelligence, basic manners, a healthy, positive outlook on life, financially solvent, good relationship with family, healthy mind and body generally) is just as important. Most men (people) I have met go with the same criteria, at least in my age-range (40+) and social circle. Yeah, there's the odd super shallow person who will only base themselves on looks, but they are not the majority by a long shot.

OLD is one avenue to meet people; one of many. I would consider someone who only uses that to be a little bit on the red-flag-y side of things, however well they present in writing, or what they look like, or what their backstory is. I get that we all live crazy busy lives under normal circumstances but if the work/life balance is so skewed that you can't find anyone at all ever to meet in 3D in years of trying to date, something is amiss.

I know for having friends who've done them that some dating apps offer the option of going to 'mixers' as I believe they are called, which is basically a social event where local singles registered to the dating agency (or company, or whatever, not entirely sure how this works, I've not looked into it) meet and mingle together. Would you consider that, ZA? (this probably has been suggested before, but I'm not familiar with every element of your history, sorry!).

 

 

There are a lot of red flaggy people on there. But now you said all of them are its just offputting 🤔😂. 

 

 

[miranda561]

3 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

On the looks thing, I assume people who have been using OLD as the main or only recourse to find a partner may be more focused on 'looks' in general since most of the time you go by a few photos and some random metrics.  I have never done OLD nor ever will, so for me attraction is first and foremost  firmly a 3D thing; the physical attraction is not based solely on 'looks' - it's more about a sexy voice or a twinkle in the eye that shows he is not self-conscious and doesn't take himself seriously, than about any metric or eye colour or whatever.  Everything else (intellectual curiosity, emotional intelligence, basic manners, a healthy, positive outlook on life, financially solvent, good relationship with family, healthy mind and body generally) is just as important. Most men (people) I have met go with the same criteria, at least in my age-range (40+) and social circle. Yeah, there's the odd super shallow person who will only base themselves on looks, but they are not the majority by a long shot.

OLD is one avenue to meet people; one of many. I would consider someone who only uses that to be a little bit on the red-flag-y side of things, however well they present in writing, or what they look like, or what their backstory is. I get that we all live crazy busy lives under normal circumstances but if the work/life balance is so skewed that you can't find anyone at all ever to meet in 3D in years of trying to date, something is amiss.

I know for having friends who've done them that some dating apps offer the option of going to 'mixers' as I believe they are called, which is basically a social event where local singles registered to the dating agency (or company, or whatever, not entirely sure how this works, I've not looked into it) meet and mingle together. Would you consider that, ZA? (this probably has been suggested before, but I'm not familiar with every element of your history, sorry!).

 

 

Im assuming..he's too shy for a mixer

[Emilie Jolie]

4 minutes ago, miranda561 said:

There are a lot of red flaggy people on there. But now you said all of them are its just offputting 🤔😂. 

People I know do not all use OLD only to find dates. They use OLD (which is fine) and they keep their eye open to opportunities, take part in group activities, get friends to set them up, etc. Not saying OLD is bad at all. It's not for me, but it's neither here nor there - plenty of couple found each other there.

Just saying using OLD only is red flag-y to me; it flags social skills issues or work/life balance issues. 

[miranda561]

4 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

People I know do not all use OLD only to find dates. They use OLD (which is fine) and they keep their eye open to opportunities, take part in group activities, get friends to set them up, etc. Not saying OLD is bad at all. It's not for me, but it's neither here nor there - plenty of couple found each other there.

Just saying using OLD only is red flag-y to me; it flags social skills issues or work/life balance issues. 

So you implying. ZA dater has red flags ..since that i think is his prime method of finding dates

[Emilie Jolie]

Well he's rarely getting second dates (hence the thread). I'm offering one possible explanation from my viewpoint, since I may not be the only woman with this perspective. I'm not implying anything about ZA Dater, because I don't know him personally. 🤷‍♀️

[salparadise]

2 hours ago, basil67 said:

The stereotyping in this thread of what men want/do and women want/do is doing my head in.   My theory is whenever somebody writes "men x" or "women y" is that the writer has no concept of human diversity.

I think Trailblazer was talking about predominant patterns, which are readily observable. There is diversity that falls both inside and outside. Showing one exception, or many exceptions, does not invalidate a general trend, it only proves that it is not universal. On LS people tend to state arguments in a way that implies a concept is either/or (black or white, yes or no), when the reality is that you can have a majority or a significant minority forming a pattern, with remaining data points scattered all over the place, perhaps forming secondary patterns, and still having data points that don't belong to either. Humans are more diverse than say a colony of ants or hive of bees, but like all living organisms, human behavior is mostly homogeneous and predictable. When we speak of diversity we're focusing on minute (but easily observable) differences that are found within larger, pervasive patterns. The expectation is that we conform to a narrow range of societal norms. When we have an individual that is uncomfortably distant from the expectation, society has tended to imprison, execute, shun, denigrate, or otherwise rein in diversity (if we don't promote him to Führer, or POTUS). Who is to say that ants and bees don't consider themselves to be unique or diverse. It's a matter of perspective, macro vs. micro.

 

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

What if she's as dumb as a box of hammers?  Or vain as a Kardashian?

I knew of a young, very attractive woman in the town where I once had my business. We're talking exceptionally attractive here. The problem was that she was literally as dumb as that box of hammers. This was widely known. The poor gal was nice and sociable, smiled beautifully, but man was she clueless. Still, almost every man who saw her wanted to get into her pants. She started dating a young physician (quite the catch himself), the son of a prominent physician in town. Lo and behold after a couple of months she was showing off a huge diamond ring. They married and he was extremely proud of his obedient little trophy wife. Virtually no eligible bachelor with options saw her as wifey material, but one did. As far as I know they're living happily ever after. Perfect example of a pervasive pattern with an exception –– that's diversity.

[Weezy1973]

The general human (and all living things actually) pattern is a bell curve. And for usually a muted bell curve which means more variability. Think of it like height. You can say on average, women in North America are 5’4”. And that would be an accurate statement. But most women are actually not 5’4”. And if you had a fine enough measuring instrument, you’d have a hard time finding ANY two women that are exactly the same height. On forums like this, people would make the equivalent of saying “Women are 5’4” “.  And they’d be wrong.

 

Also, when it comes to long term relationships, men and women tend to match in terms of looks. The exception in this case is when there’s a discrepancy. Just google the matching phenomenon. Quite a bit of research showing that...

[QuietRiot]

Didn't read all of this, but I can relate to the OP. Eventually, there'll come a time where you'll burn out and the lack of effort in many peoples' profiles are rather glaring these days even with the person on the other end with the. "Just ask" or "Ask me" with just pictures and metrics to go off of. Some are so lazy that they just type in a bunch of jumbled letters to make word count. Pretty sad.

I think this is where these Tinder-like swipe/left and right apps are more appropriate. It's evolved to just lazy swipes of the finger...nothing more. People are numb. And I'm sick of seeing the same faces of the people over and over. This mean they are just looking for attention an validation...using online dating platforms for attention seeking...an extension to their social media pages.

[ZA Dater]

19 hours ago, Foxhall said:

that sounds perfectly natural really.

women like to get to know a guy.  (rather simple statement)

How easy are you to get to know? Are you prepared to have deep conversations about your childhood, your relationships with your immediate family and so on, can you speak freely about your hopes and aspirations,

let them get to know you, 

one area where myself and girlfriend connected is we both had complex relationships with our Fathers,

she was struck by the depth I could convey simply telling old stories but getting across the subtle psychological aspect of our relationship,

that in turn made her feel comfortable with me and that she could divulge her thoughts.

you need a bit of luck along the way, I suppose, in meeting the girl that you can connect and feel comfortable with. many women would not be the slightest bit interested in my family stories, but meeting one who was turned out to be a good moment for me.

maybe perhaps be prepared to open up a bit more on dates if you are not already, I would refrain though from highlighting your inexperience, but be prepared to go on deep conversations with someone you feel rapport with, 

Im not sure what you are learning from all the dates you have been on, is there anything that is working well, is there something that must be a clear "no no" and so on,

The main thing is I am less shy, more outgoing, trying to be less awkward, different body language, so I do see them as something to learn from. I don't mind opening up when there is a great conversation and where the conversation flows from the off, everyone has been on those awkward dates where conversation doesn't flow and I cant open up on those. But equally I cant open up either when the person asks nothing about me.

 

[Trail Blazer]

10 hours ago, basil67 said:

I'm a woman and I love the thrill of the chase. It's my biology.     The stereotyping in this thread of what men want/do and women want/do is doing my head in.   My theory is whenever somebody writes "men x" or "women y" is that the writer has no concept of human diversity.

Now you say that  "a beautiful woman would still have a line of men just as long, ready to wine and dine her, regardless of how much money she has".  What if she's as dumb as a box of hammers?  Or vain as a Kardashian?

I never said anything was absolute.  You might like "the thrill of the chase" (in what context I'm not sure) but at the same time, I'm sure you'd enjoy just as much being pursued by a man.  As a rule, women would expect to be chased a lot more than they would have to chase.  There's a reason and it's biology.

If the woman is as dumb as a box of hammers and as vain as a Kardashian, almost every man lined up would still wine and dine her, so long as he could bang her.  And, so long as she was willing to have sex, most men, at least for a fair amount of time would gladly have let that piece of arm candy hang around for a while.

[ZA Dater]

20 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Oh. Everything is starting to fall into place now.

Has this special friendship been going on for long, and is she the gold standard?

(Happy birthday, by the way).

There have been other gold standards too so that's what I chase generally but what the inherent problem is I rarely connect instantly which I did on this occasion and perhaps with 3 other people. Its that feeling I chase and when its not there, well the whole thing looses any sort of meaning to me, its either there or it isn't, I cant manufacture it.

People like this have been good for me because they have forced me to be better, motivated me to be better, offered that tacit support to me, the feeling there is someone who does actually care to some degree.  Sure I wont ever be able to date these people but when I look at life I know my life is the better for their influence because a lot of what I say on this forum many people don't know, I walk around with it, these people do know about it, they don't judge me for it and I just get the sense they understand and a difficult as it is to believe this gives me a sense of calm. For year being single ate at me, it really made me a very unhappy person, it polluted almost all of my life but just once I met someone who did tick the boxes, I wasn't shy, I could be me and in some respects I woke up that day and realised I could be a better me.

I have had very few dates where I have had this feeling that the other person is making me raise my game.

 

[ZA Dater]

19 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Ah. That explains a few things. 

ZA, sounds like you have given yourself the ideal cover not to put yourself out there in any meaninful way. I agree with you, this one-sided faux dating situation is taking you a few steps back. You're turning getting to know you into a military operation with all the walls you've put up.

 

Not really, I know I cant date her so the friendship is irrelevant. There is nowhere I can put myself where I would stand a realistic prospect of being able to beat the completion, that the truth really. What is true is the best chance people have is via friends of friends and that path is irrelevant for me because the competition and the level of choice those ladies have is frankly at a level I cannot compete at.

This friendship at least allows me to have some of what I like so munch in terms of intellectual stimulation. What perhaps isn't so clear and its my own fault because I haven't  made it clear is she just sort of fits into my life, I don't see her often but it just works we talk about everything and anything and its a good friendship, maybe too good because I keep chasing this level of comfort with dating and I simply cannot find it. We work on projects, she helps out with events I arrange and there is always that shared sense of purpose. Again maybe I am wrong chasing this on dates.

That's the thing really I tend to think about dates in terms of would I be able to fit with her and would she be able to fit in with me. Perhaps this is wrong.

I am very complex in how I think and how I express emotion, which suffice to say isn't always very clear.

What is becoming clear to me is that OLD wont work for me at all. Which leaves me with precisely zero viable options.

[ZA Dater]

21 hours ago, elaine567 said:

We all want something in our lives that is extra-ordinary.
Something we hanker over.
BUT the world is not often good at doling out our heart's desire and at some point we  all need to be realistic.
We are not going to live on that huge ranch in the prairie and own everything as far as the eye can see.
We are not going to have that big company, that big family, that big wedding, that big car, that big boat...
Ar some point we realise, its just not going to happen and we manage out life accordingly.
You are now 36, that dream girl is I guess not going to happen, you need to manage your life and expectations accordingly. 
You can buy things, but you can't buy love.
Time to put things into perspective.
"Interest" is not something to be decried and debased, interest is pure gold no matter where it comes from.
Forget superficial nonsense and go promote and seek out interest.
I am not suggesting you go find the ugliest "slag" in the place but there are a lot of decent honest women out there who may not look like models but who are interesting people and who will be loyal and who will love you to death.
Otherwise I can see you being alone for life.
Your friends who you no doubt wish to impress, will all have their own partners but you will still be alone....
Time to take stock.

You probably knew I wouldn't agree with any of this and I don't. I'd far rather land up with nothing because I chased what I did want than land up with something I know I never really wanted to begin with. Nobody said dream,  I prefer compatible. Superficial is never nonsense because I'd guess you wont date someone you don't find attractive in some way.

When I go about my business each day I do so knowing I am good person with things to offer people, I don't mope around because I am single, even this past birthday I felt less alone than usual.

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

31 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

There have been other gold standards too so that's what I chase generally but what the inherent problem is I rarely connect instantly which I did on this occasion and perhaps with 3 other people. Its that feeling I chase and when its not there, well the whole thing looses any sort of meaning to me, its either there or it isn't, I cant manufacture it.

People like this have been good for me because they have forced me to be better, motivated me to be better, offered that tacit support to me, the feeling there is someone who does actually care to some degree.  Sure I wont ever be able to date these people but when I look at life I know my life is the better for their influence because a lot of what I say on this forum many people don't know, I walk around with it, these people do know about it, they don't judge me for it and I just get the sense they understand and a difficult as it is to believe this gives me a sense of calm. For year being single ate at me, it really made me a very unhappy person, it polluted almost all of my life but just once I met someone who did tick the boxes, I wasn't shy, I could be me and in some respects I woke up that day and realised I could be a better me.

I have had very few dates where I have had this feeling that the other person is making me raise my game.

 

Listen...okay, I don't know the whole story. But if you guys aren't together then it didn't work out and if it didn't work out then why are you imagining that it would have been the ideal relationship? 

Isn't staying power part of what makes an ideal relationship ideal?

Anyone can have a zing of, wow, we really connect but it can be based on literally anything so why would chasing that one feeling be your yardstick for whether an actual relationship will be viable, especially since that one wasn't? Why would that be your measurement for what will make you happy when it never did?

Edited May 16, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You probably knew I wouldn't agree with any of this and I don't. I'd far rather land up with nothing because I chased what I did want than land up with something I know I never really wanted to begin with. Nobody said dream,  I prefer compatible. Superficial is never nonsense because I'd guess you wont date someone you don't find attractive in some way.

When I go about my business each day I do so knowing I am good person with things to offer people, I don't mope around because I am single, even this past birthday I felt less alone than usual.

 

You say you'd rather. But you really don't seem to be happy this way. Even the title of this thread is literally defeated.

[Emilie Jolie]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Again maybe I am wrong chasing this on dates

It's good that you have a quality friendship that makes you feel good about yourself .

It's just that it is putting undue pressure on you and on your prospective dates. It's difficult for them to compete with what you feel is the perfect level of connection, built over a number of years even if you feel it came instantly, in only a few hours at most. It would be easier, I guess, to bring your A game as a matter of course to all the women you talk to so they have a fair shot at getting to know who you actually are. It's a learning curve for sure, I get that, especially if you're naturally a very private person, but you are limiting yourself by only bringing your best self to the table under certain conditions. Do it all the time!

 

[ZA Dater]

18 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Listen...okay, I don't know the whole story. But if you guys aren't together then it didn't work out and if it didn't work out then why are you imagining that it would have been the ideal relationship? 

Isn't staying power part of what makes an ideal relationship ideal?

Anyone can have a zing of, wow, we really connect but it can be based on literally anything so why would chasing that one feeling be your yardstick for whether an actual relationship will be viable, especially since that one wasn't? Why would that be your measurement for what will make you happy when it never did?

She just wasn't interested in the person I was then, she was single, met a great guy who does make her happy and I am sincerely happy that she is happy. Like me she had a tough time with dating.

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

She just wasn't interested in the person I was then, she was single, met a great guy who does make her happy and I am sincerely happy that she is happy. Like me she had a tough time with dating.

The point is, it it had been viable you guys would be together. So while it sounds like a nice association it can't be your barometer for the ideal relationship since it involves one of the two people not being romantically interested in the other. It involves you being in eternal chase mode to someone who doesn't want you. If course nobody who does want you can recreate that scenario for you.

You have literally set yourself up to never be able to have a relationship. And you literally continue to hurt yourself this way. Just all the time.

Have you asked yourself why?

[ZA Dater]

14 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

It's good that you have a quality friendship that makes you feel good about yourself .

It's just that it is putting undue pressure on you and on your prospective dates. It's difficult for them to compete with what you feel is the perfect level of connection, built over a number of years even if you feel it came instantly, in only a few hours at most. It would be easier, I guess, to bring your A game as a matter of course to all the women you talk to so they have a fair shot at getting to know who you actually are. It's a learning curve for sure, I get that, especially if you're naturally a very private person, but you are limiting yourself by only bringing your best self to the table under certain conditions. Do it all the time!

 

I need to explain something here. 99% of the matches I get are people I don't find attractive so no there isn't much reason for me to bring my A game and now there is even less reason to meet them at all. I needed over time to go on dates to learn things, try become less shy, get used to the idea of opening up to some degree to strangers.

The thing with her was it worked from minute 1, literally sat and chatted for 4 hours and the other people at the event didn't really exist. Its always been the same and yes maybe in the last 5 years I have had two dates where the same happened but for the rest I often asked myself why I went on the date to begin with. Look to be fully transparent I for a while chased the one night of experience but I learnt that takes apparently even more skills than getting a second date and would in all probability be super awkward assuming I could once again find someone attractive.

What is hard for me is I am not the loud guy in the room so on a social level I have to work very hard to be noticed when I have been brave enough to go along with "come meet some girls at the club" and it becomes a real emotional beating because I don't fit in, I am not light hearted, I never really loose that focus and drive I take with me to the office. So yes I end up feeling terrible about myself so I simply don't this this anymore.

A good example a few months ago, friend and I went for what for a ostensible a catch up business meet up and there were two ladies at a table nearby, now he is another version of me, I considered sending drinks over but I then looked at them all dressed up for a night out and just realised my lack of "fun" wouldn't work so what I am trying to say is I am more often than not a victim of who I am and how I don't integrate than any particular issue the dating world my throw my way.

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

The point is, it it had been viable you guys would be together. So while it sounds like a nice association it can't be your barometer for the ideal relationship since it involves one of the two people not being romantically interested in the other. It involves you being in eternal chase mode to someone who doesn't want you. If course nobody who does want you can recreate that scenario for you.

You have literally set yourself up to never be able to have a relationship. And you literally continue to hurt yourself this way. Just all the time.

Have you asked yourself why?

I am not chasing her. I just enjoy the friendship and the projects we work on together. The friendship barometer is exactly what I want out of dating, that's the point. I am used to people not wanting me so I basically its a non issue with her. What does want me I don't want so at least with this the measure of positivity for me is much better.

The only hurt I feel are the never ending unsuitable, unattractive matches I get with whom I have nothing in common at all. Sure, with her I do sometimes feel disappointed that I couldn't make a better go of it when she was single but that boat has sailed and I have given up on that idea.

As yourself something here, if I may. How do you feel when you receive attention from a guy you find attractive and then how do you feel when you get attention from a guy you don't find attractive? I'd guess there is a substantial difference, now imagine NEVER getting attention from anyone you find attractive.

That's the issue I have. I can be the best person I can, I can look good, speak well, be motivated, go all out but over and over again I attract people I do not want and in some respects the very attractive people I have met in non dating scenarios describe the same issue, lots of guy attention but not a lot of welcome attention they really want.

[CaliforniaGirl]

17 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am not chasing her. I just enjoy the friendship and the projects we work on together. The friendship barometer is exactly what I want out of dating, that's the point. I am used to people not wanting me so I basically its a non issue with her. What does want me I don't want so at least with this the measure of positivity for me is much better.

The only hurt I feel are the never ending unsuitable, unattractive matches I get with whom I have nothing in common at all. Sure, with her I do sometimes feel disappointed that I couldn't make a better go of it when she was single but that boat has sailed and I have given up on that idea.

As yourself something here, if I may. How do you feel when you receive attention from a guy you find attractive and then how do you feel when you get attention from a guy you don't find attractive? I'd guess there is a substantial difference, now imagine NEVER getting attention from anyone you find attractive.

That's the issue I have. I can be the best person I can, I can look good, speak well, be motivated, go all out but over and over again I attract people I do not want and in some respects the very attractive people I have met in non dating scenarios describe the same issue, lots of guy attention but not a lot of welcome attention they really want.

The difference may be that I find many guys attractive. There is so much to people. People are fascinating. And a lot...a lot of guys are cute. Even guys who aren't crazy hot will often have a really attractive physical feature or two. Hands. Butt. Eyes. Voice...

Have you considered whether you really want a relationship at all? Whether it's a coincidence...fate...or maybe something a lot more practical that made you open up and find tons and tons of common ground on just ordinary friendship things, with someone who it was clear from the beginning posed absolutely no threat of becoming a real lover?

I don't know you. But I do know page after page after page after page of excuses when I see them.

I feel like you should stop running toward, stop running away, stop...just stop. And face yourself. For real.

Something is going on here, and it's not that 99% of women in New Zealand are physically unpalatable.

I think you know this.

Edited May 16, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl