do you just eventually give up?

[40Something]

32 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Absolutely. 

Just saying I would not have the candidness and openness to put myself out there on an open forum, admit to all my flaws (I have plenty of them too, like us all) and allow myself to be repeatedly picked apart, sometimes mercilessly (I'm sure I've done it too, unwittingly - sorry ZA!). I hope ZA finds some comfort in that; I know I wouldn't. I guess he's a much more resilient person than me for sure!

 

Agreed. To be totally honest in my opinion ZA is his own worst enemy. Self love comes before anything else. I do wish him the best.

[ZA Dater]

51 minutes ago, 40Something said:

Hi Emilie

Not denying that ZA has made those admissions but in general over the years he's made it sound as if the quality of women from SA is not that great which is untrue and misleading.

I think nearly everyone here is rooting for him to find love.

Well you wont enjoy what I am going to say here but the reality is the best dates I have had were with tourists. One a Doctor from Colorado, another a journalist from Sweden and another a PA from Germany. Why, well their viewpoint was different, for whatever reason we interacted well. Sure I know there are great ladies in SA but unfortunately I don't seem to be finding them that often.

[40Something]

2 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well you wont enjoy what I am going to say here but the reality is the best dates I have had were with tourists. One a Doctor from Colorado, another a journalist from Sweden and another a PA from Germany. Why, well their viewpoint was different, for whatever reason we interacted well. Sure I know there are great ladies in SA but unfortunately I don't seem to be finding them that often.

ZA, personally i think those connections felt good to you because the chances of it developing into proper relationships were slim and you therefore felt safe enough to unwind. 

We all have our preferences and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Sometimes what we think we want, is not what we need. Try and meet someone out of your comfort zone and have fun, as opposed to finding something wrong on the first date.

[ZA Dater]

57 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Defence mechanism?

Not trying to find any excuses, if he has then it's obviously not great, though I don't think anyone actually believes SA women are awful either way.

Just trying to see things through his eyes. 

Again unfortunately my viewpoint is based on my experience. I sure they are great just I don't seem to work very well with them when it comes to being attractive and being what they want, I think if my pool of experiences were generally more positive my viewpoint would be a lot different.

I think where my bitterness comes from is the fact that I can have a really good date and get nowhere but I then have not reasons as to why I got nowhere so going forward I cant improve never mind rescue that situation. I enjoy what I do because you predict forecast and work at problems but as you go you can see improvements, you can see areas to tweak, dating does give me that, it gives me lucky draw syndrome and because I cannot rationalise why a date doesn't go well its easier to them point out I am not like other guys and simply blame myself.

Try doing this over a few years and see how you actually feel. Of late this issue has become worse and its made worse by Tinder and OLD. The thing is I don't know what people want so I need to go out and try be all things to all people which is impossible.

Ultimately I can be thankful for the people I have met because I can almost always tell you the ones I haven't had dates with were always the more pleasant experience.

[ZA Dater]

5 minutes ago, 40Something said:

ZA, personally i think those connections felt good to you because the chances of it developing into proper relationships were slim and you therefore felt safe enough to unwind. 

We all have our preferences and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Sometimes what we think we want, is not what we need. Try and meet someone out of your comfort zone and have fun, as opposed to finding something wrong on the first date.

That's a good idea but quite hard to do for a shy guy, I adore the confident type of lady because then I become confident. I'd have no idea how to pursue this idea.

[ZA Dater]

12 minutes ago, 40Something said:

ZA, personally i think those connections felt good to you because the chances of it developing into proper relationships were slim and you therefore felt safe enough to unwind. 

We all have our preferences and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Sometimes what we think we want, is not what we need. Try and meet someone out of your comfort zone and have fun, as opposed to finding something wrong on the first date.

And superficially at least they were much more attractive than who I normally match with in terms of SA ladies.

[simpycurious]

ZA, you need PROJECT confidence (not cocky but self-assured).  You need to be an ALPHA and present yourself as such.  Get the negative out of your mind.  When you look a potential 

date or relationship see the positives not the negatives. 

[Weezy1973]

24 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I think where my bitterness comes from is the fact that I can have a really good date and get nowhere but I then have not reasons as to why I got nowhere so going forward I cant improve never mind rescue that situation.

First, by you own admission you’ve had very few really good dates, so this is a very small sample size to become bitter about.

Second, the reason they weren’t interested is because they didn’t feel a connection. The reason they didn’t feel a connection isn’t really relevant. Strangers aren’t going to feel a connection the vast majority of the time with OLD especially.

[Emilie Jolie]

10 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Well here is the thing I am not blunt if that's what I you mean but I also don't really major in what I see many guys do and that's talk BS about themselves which in the case of people I know simply isn't true. My approach is very much to be authentic to who I am and what my beliefs are. In the case of some dates this works well because common ground is found but again it doesn't happen that often. My other issue is how to show them I like them, I have pondered this many times and never really found an answer, being nice, well everyone is nice, trying to be charming and playful, I have observed this and tried it from time to time.

Ultimately I don't end up saying "so what are you looking for" even though I have been tempted to on occasion. What I perhaps cant haven't conveyed properly here is that for me the problem I have is two fold

1: Finding people I find attractive

2: Actually trying to have a decent enough date to try get a second date.

For me when I go I don't really go with any sort of plan, when I first started out I did but realised that this makes the whole thing regimented and that doesn't really work so I try go as relaxed as I can be. Go with the view of meeting someone interesting and see.

However where the trouble starts is when I start thinking and over thinking and thinking some more. Then more trouble starts when I don't get decent matches and as you have all seen that's not something I wear particularly well. SO yes I can go out and be friendly, I can participated in a conversation of people, granted I feel like the outsider most of the time but I can actually do that.

A really stupid thing I did was via a friend I met someone who was quite different but exuded warmth and she was just nice to me, this was an good example of where I simply didn't have the skills to make more of it, she sort of did reach out to me but I didn't know what to do with that so then overthinking sets in and inevitably nothing happens.

I like it like this, to drive around a track quickly you need to be accurate because a mistake in one corner can compromise the next and so on and so forth, I tend to get put off too quickly by mistakes I make in dating and then its more me irritated with myself than anything else.

I didn't mean bluntness, I meant what kind of stuff do you talk about? I'm thinking more along the lines of TMI territory, as in you are being too candid about the personal info you share with your dates.

As for your 2 points, point 2 is what you need to work on as a priority, as you know. The more confident you feel in getting second dates, the more second dates you'll get, the more flexible your selection criteria will be for point 1. Your inflexibility on point 1 is directly linked to point 2, which is affected by your overthinking.

There is actually nothing wrong with asking women what they are looking for on a date; at best, you'll get some clarity as to why the interest is not there on their end, at worst, well, it doesn't matter because you won't ever see them again. 

 

 

[Ollie180]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

That's a good idea but quite hard to do for a shy guy, I adore the confident type of lady because then I become confident. I'd have no idea how to pursue this idea.

ZA.. I’ve never online dated so what can I really say about that but... have you tried just cold approaching girls that you do find attractive!

Yeah 95% will knock you back.. you’ve got to be able to shrug that off gracefully but.. at least your targeting girls you do think are attractive and at least it’ll make you stand out a bit more!

 

PLUS... it might help you feel less awkward!

Back in my 20’s me and a mate used to play this game of doing cold approaches with the most ridiculous pick up lines! Like I’m talking so stupid they’re funny! (Hey! Excuse me - It’s just, was your dad a boxer? ..No? Oh cause you’re a knockout!) ...did we have a high conversion to dates.. no! But did the girls like it, yeah! They’d laugh.. I’d be like can I have your number, they’d say yes or no, end of convo, no harm done. More girls said yes that you’d think.. I think just because of the sheer ballsyness of it!

I know a lot of girls (my line of work tends to be girl heavy) who are attractive but never get approached in public - even if they say no, you still give them a great story to tell when they get home!

Even if you don’t do it like that have you tried just going up to a girl (who doesn’t look in a rush) and just being like ‘hey, I’m ZA, I don’t want to impose on you but I just noticed you from over there and thought I’m going to kick myself if I don’t at least go and say hello.

...I know you probably HATE the idea.. but it would be a way to literally throw you out your comfort zone, and just get used to being confident around girls you think are attractive

 (Note I said BEING confident, not FEELING confident - fake it till you make it an all)

[Weezy1973]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

That's a good idea but quite hard to do for a shy guy

You do know that being shy is not a personality trait right? Shyness is fear of rejection that causes people to hide their personalities. When it becomes a problem where it affects major areas of someone’s life, like being unable to form a romantic connection for example, it actually is more aptly called social anxiety. 
 

Going to therapy won’t magically make you more attractive, but it certainly can help with social anxiety.

[basil67]

10 hours ago, Emilie Jolie said:

 I'm sure you didn't mean in that way and I think I know where this is going, but this is coming across as a bit condescending to both ZA and women on 'the spectrum'. Connections between compatible, empathetic humans are not dependent on a condition or a diagnosis, in my opinion. We can agree to disagree, that's no problem :).

I would only be condescending if I thought that autistic women were lesser than normal, Neuro Typical (NT).      

All the things ZA complains about when talking about problems with other humans are traits of those who are NT.  All this business of expecting others to fit in, blend in, dress in the same fashionable uniform, talk in an accepted manner on regular topics.  And frankly, I see where he's coming from.  NTs can be quite a dull lot.

One of my BFFs (an academic) is autistic.  You wouldn't know if she didn't tell you.  But her group of friends very much don't fit the mainstream mold.  They aren't necessarily ASD, just diverse.  As an NT person, I'm always quite conscious of being the odd one in her friend group, but they accept me because I'm OK with their diversity.   I would never end up at a table with any of her friends discussing latest fashions or reality TV and all the things ZA hates.   She tells me a story of being at a talk about ASD with some of her colleagues.  She struck up an engaging conversation with a guy at her table who she though was good company.  Her colleagues later told her that they were keeping an eye on her because they were worried about her talking with this weirdo.  (The irony!)   NTs really aren't that good with nuero diverse people. 

Meanwhile my (moderately) autistic son has always attracted odd ball friends.  Not necessarily on the spectrum, but also not the normal, fashionable people who do mainstream things like partying every Saturday night.  Sure, normal people are kind to him and greet him when they see him, but have no desire to be his friend.  He's OK with this because he prefers his "tribe" (as he calls them).  He's got one mate who has been rejected everywhere, but my son thinks this guy is so cool.  

Yes, there are NTs who have kindness and compassion for those who don't fit the mold.  But does the unusual person want an NT who does the same boring talk as all the other NTs?   

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by basil67

[Emilie Jolie]

Fair enough.

I don't know what you mean by 'normal' but yeah, I'm familiar with ND and NT dynamics for having experienced that in my own life. To me, people are people regardless of diagnostic, label, mind processes, etc. It's not like being NT or ND gets you special entrance to a private club, and it's not like it's conditioning you to dating a specific type of person.

Improving self-image and confidence in the dating process are the current challenges for ZA, as I understand it. Not sure about directing ZA to specifically trying to date one tiny subset of the female population, seems a little exclusionary to me, but maybe I'm missing something (sorry for the sort of threadjack, ZA).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[basil67]

3 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Not sure about directing ZA to specifically trying to date one tiny subset of the female population, seems a little exclusionary to me, but maybe I'm missing something (sorry for the sort of threadjack, ZA).   

I only suggest it because he can't find compatibility in the majority of female population and complains about NT traits.  

[lovelydemon]

I think ZA Dater is most likely autistic. His need for a perfect partner is so he can hide his autistic self in her perfection.  His refusal to explore this diagnosis means that he will never understand and accept himself, and, thus, he will never understand and accept autistic women. 

[Moves Like Jagger]

From an introvert, I'm going to tell you why some guys are so cold and withdrawn around women. Some guys are rewarded for standing out when it comes to expressing their thoughts and opinions. They get rewarded with friendships, relationships, promotions, acceptance to great schools, money, and amazing jobs. Think of the popular athlete, the powerful politician, or that charming entertainer.

On the other hand, other guys are punished and ostracized every time they try to stand out. They get yelled out by their parents, bullied by their class mates, punished by their teachers, and warned by their employers. These guys don't have as many friends. They get passed over for promotions. These guys are wallpaper and have very little to say. These guys have to move heaven and earth just to find a women that will give him a chance on a date. Why some guys are rewarded for standing out while others are punished has to do with genetics, family upbringing, family's economic class, and the community.

When I think of guys that have a great upbringing, I think of guys who grew up in great homes where their parents encouraged the guy to be social and get involved in the community. On the flip side, you have shy guys that get stunted by overprotected parents. Some guys never got pushed into developing their social skills because their parents kept too themselves or their parents came from cultures where good grades was more important than being social. Due to getting hammered every time they try to stand out, a lot of guys create a wall to protect themselves from being hurt.

A shy guy talks to a woman in his social circle. After a few minutes of vanilla small talk, he makes the mistake of asking her out. Not only does she reject him, but she tells everyone in her social circle to not date him. After having this happen several times, the guys gives up and either stops trying or he tries to adapt by trying online dating.

As guys, we have to deal with getting accused of sexual harassment. I remember one guy in a forum who said that he keeps all the conversation he has with his female coworkers work-related because he does not want to get in trouble. On another website, some guy started a thread about he tried to break out of his shell by going to a Meetup group. One day, the group leader came up to him and told him that several women in the group accused him of sexual harassment. The group leader knew the shy guy didn't anything wrong. However, the group leader did speak down to him about his shyness. I also remember a struggling guy on another website post a success story. Some of the people on the website posted replies about how they were rooting against him due to his posting history.

A lot of introvert guys are afraid that the women will be mean or cause a scene. I think we should support guys when they make mistakes. Instead of telling guys that they are hopeless, we should be supporting them by telling them what they did right and how they can improve next time. 

 

[ZA Dater]

16 hours ago, simpycurious said:

ZA, you need PROJECT confidence (not cocky but self-assured).  You need to be an ALPHA and present yourself as such.  Get the negative out of your mind.  When you look a potential 

date or relationship see the positives not the negatives. 

Interesting this because my approach generally is a more meek mild way because generally that's my persona most of the time. Maybe this is another issue.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, Moves Like Jagger said:

From an introvert, I'm going to tell you why some guys are so cold and withdrawn around women. Some guys are rewarded for standing out when it comes to expressing their thoughts and opinions. They get rewarded with friendships, relationships, promotions, acceptance to great schools, money, and amazing jobs. Think of the popular athlete, the powerful politician, or that charming entertainer.

On the other hand, other guys are punished and ostracized every time they try to stand out. They get yelled out by their parents, bullied by their class mates, punished by their teachers, and warned by their employers. These guys don't have as many friends. They get passed over for promotions. These guys are wallpaper and have very little to say. These guys have to move heaven and earth just to find a women that will give him a chance on a date. Why some guys are rewarded for standing out while others are punished has to do with genetics, family upbringing, family's economic class, and the community.

When I think of guys that have a great upbringing, I think of guys who grew up in great homes where their parents encouraged the guy to be social and get involved in the community. On the flip side, you have shy guys that get stunted by overprotected parents. Some guys never got pushed into developing their social skills because their parents kept too themselves or their parents came from cultures where good grades was more important than being social. Due to getting hammered every time they try to stand out, a lot of guys create a wall to protect themselves from being hurt.

A shy guy talks to a woman in his social circle. After a few minutes of vanilla small talk, he makes the mistake of asking her out. Not only does she reject him, but she tells everyone in her social circle to not date him. After having this happen several times, the guys gives up and either stops trying or he tries to adapt by trying online dating.

A lot of introvert guys are afraid that the women will be mean or cause a scene. I think we should support guys when they make mistakes. Instead of telling guys that they are hopeless, we should be supporting them by telling them what they did right and how they can improve next time. 

 

A fair amount of this resonates with me. Ultimately one can just do the best one can and each day find something to be happy about. Probably another mistake I make is I don't really take many risks so I weigh up the chances of success and then try and determine if I am going to go for the opportunity or not. Again this has benefits in certain aspects of life in that I can bring a rational fact based slant to some decision making but with dating I don't think it really works because its impossible on reflection to weigh up odds because every person thinks differently.

I often wonder if being interesting can sometimes trump being very outgoing. One thing I am sure of is I do bring a different perspective to most view points when I sit down with people and have a general chat.

I think what I need to do is try less OLD and more actually in person conversation because re reading the posts about OLD here has perhaps made me realise things about it I had not thought of before and on reflection those posters are actually right, its very hard to stand out there or stand out for the right reasons.

[40Something]

17 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

That's a good idea but quite hard to do for a shy guy, I adore the confident type of lady because then I become confident. I'd have no idea how to pursue this idea.

I've been on my share of first dates and if a guy's body language shows me he's bored or not into getting to know me, it puts me off immediately.

Perhaps take a profile of someone who's not super beautiful to you at first but ticks other boxes, go on a date with an open mind and who knows where it could lead. Some people are better looking in person than pics. 

[ZA Dater]

32 minutes ago, 40Something said:

I've been on my share of first dates and if a guy's body language shows me he's bored or not into getting to know me, it puts me off immediately.

Perhaps take a profile of someone who's not super beautiful to you at first but ticks other boxes, go on a date with an open mind and who knows where it could lead. Some people are better looking in person than pics. 

I am likely to move off OLD because the matches just don't work for me. I think the super beautiful part is being over stated here, I don't think a pretty to face and someone fairly athletic is too much to ask.

Most of the dates I have been on fell into the above category so I do go with an open mind. In hindsight the mistake I made was to believe the OLD can work....logically thinking about it now I think if you are superficially stunning it could work well in the sense you will get dates but what the quality of those dates are like is another matter...the irritation I face of not getting attractive dates is mirrored by attractive people not getting quality dates based on conversations I have had.

Am starting to think my approach also needs to be a less serious one when it comes to dating, if it happens well great, if not well there are other things in life.

Edited May 20, 2020 by ZA Dater

[ZA Dater]

44 minutes ago, 40Something said:

I've been on my share of first dates and if a guy's body language shows me he's bored or not into getting to know me, it puts me off immediately.

I cant read body language that well so I try to just keep an open posture and smile and try laugh and just try be friendly. That's about as much as I can seemingly.

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I cant read body language that well so I try to just keep an open posture and smile and try laugh and just try be friendly. That's about as much as I can seemingly.

I can't read horse body language very well but I am sure if i spent some time reading, watching videos, mingling with experienced horsey people and spending time with horses I could no doubt suss them out.
I am surprised after so much time having difficulty with women, you would not now be an expert in body language?
 

[simpycurious]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Interesting this because my approach generally is a more meek mild way because generally that's my persona most of the time. Maybe this is another issue.

Why not try the CONFIDENCE approach.  Again, you don't have to be cocky just self-assured and confident.  Display that confidence to your potential date.  

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, simpycurious said:

Why not try the CONFIDENCE approach.  Again, you don't have to be cocky just self-assured and confident.  Display that confidence to your potential date.  

I do that but am careful to never come across as aloof.

[ZA Dater]

3 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I am surprised after so much time having difficulty with women, you would not now be an expert in body language?
 

Me too. Though I think everyone is different. I have even been stupid enough to dismiss good body language on a none dating scene and only realise a few hours later she was being overly friendly. I miss any sort of indications of interest probably because I just dismiss the idea from the off.

Dates, honestly few of them I really wanted to go on but I kept being told its a numbers game so I thought well I might as meet up with anyone who will meet up and see what happens.

In between this mire of generally unmemorable dates I have learnt some body language of my own mainly because I decided to read up on it and to be honest I find most useful in business meetings, it has more value for me there.