do you just eventually give up?

[Weezy1973]

So it sounds like you’ve chosen to give up. The downside is indeed being alone. If your cycle continues, this decision won’t last long and you’ll be back on the dating apps soon enough. Around and around you go. 
 

But @ZA Dater, please don’t think that you wouldn’t be able to date and even get into a meaningful relationship just because of the way the universe happens to have played out. You can, but you would have to commit to making some fundamental changes in both your thinking and more importantly, your actions. If you refuse to change, like you have so far, you’ll continue to fail, and continue the cycle. 

[ZA Dater]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

So it sounds like you’ve chosen to give up. The downside is indeed being alone. If your cycle continues, this decision won’t last long and you’ll be back on the dating apps soon enough. Around and around you go. 
 

But @ZA Dater, please don’t think that you wouldn’t be able to date and even get into a meaningful relationship just because of the way the universe happens to have played out. You can, but you would have to commit to making some fundamental changes in both your thinking and more importantly, your actions. If you refuse to change, like you have so far, you’ll continue to fail, and continue the cycle. 

Dont see what actions I need to change. Unless you mean going out with more people I find unattractive in hope one may turn into a great looking attractive person.

Would settle simply for mutual attraction, go out with me have some dinner. That's kinda enough. At least give me some sense I am actually worth something as a date. 

Really not much to ask I think.

 

[Weezy1973]

14 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Dont see what actions I need to change. Unless you mean going out with more people I find unattractive in hope one may turn into a great looking attractive person.

Would settle simply for mutual attraction, go out with me have some dinner. That's kinda enough. At least give me some sense I am actually worth something as a date. 

Really not much to ask I think.

 

But that’s not really all you’re looking for. If you genuinely think that going on one date with someone you found attractive who also found you attractive would just satisfy you so you could die a happy man, I’m afraid you’re lying to yourself.

I’d definitely saying being honest to yourself about what you find attractive is a good idea. Is it really every woman except one’s that are obese? What about redheads? Or other races? If you list out all your physical dealbreakers, how many are there really? Crooked teeth? Big nose? Acne? Apple shaped? Pear shaped? I’m not talking about your absolute ideal - just the dealbreakers. You go round and round on this question too. 

[Miss Spider]

I am sorry, ZA. It’s not that I don’t empathize with your situation. I do. I am not saying that you suggesting you don’t have a point about some it or that you have not tried anything  in any way . But it takes consistency and dedication to change some of these things....and a lot of decent suggestions you’ve just dismissed outright to the chagrin of some people. You’ve said you just don’t think it will help or that you don’t want to change yourself to attract someone. Just looking at your situation. Your goal is to find someone that you are attracted who is attracted to you back. You have criteria that they meet. They  have criteria that you do not meet. So I only see three real options here. . One is to not change much and keep searching and hoping, the second is to give up, and the last, and what most people have been suggesting in one way or another, is to up your D/SMV.   There is really no other way to attract people that you meet that you’re attracted to but aren’t attracted to you than to up your SMV in some way. That is just the nature of the beast. Dating is a competition in a lot of ways. People match up the most with people who have  roughly equal to offer... 
 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[Ellener]

17 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I am just so tired of looking.

take a break for a bit and do something else meaningful to you for a while? That's what I'd do. I spend a lot of years un-partnered but I'm usually engaged with something else.

[basil67]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I like to think I am a good person with things to offer but I guess the market wants different things.

You do have good things to offer.  The market does want those things, but it also wants the bells and whistles.

[Weezy1973]

13 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I want to know where the people here met dates and I want to know what each persons criteria was? Its easy to tell me what to do but if you were actually me, walking in my shoes what would you do?  How far behind is too far behind when it comes to dating?At what point do I start looking at this another way and considering other options. 

I’ve discussed how I met most of my previous girlfriends all ready, but the vast majority of dates I had were from OLD.

My criteria for who I would message or swipe right on changed as I gained more dating experiences and learned from my mistakes. I reduced my superficial criteria and increased my “relationship” oriented characteristics criteria. 
 

And if I were you, I would do something similar. The only looks criteria I had was for them not to be overweight. Other than that I considered everyone from a looks perspective.

Next I filtered for people looking for a long term relationship rather than something casual. It’s important to know what you want in a relationship, so knowing I wanted long term was valuable.

And then I dated a lot. As I didn’t have almost any superficial filters, that gave my tons of options and an opportunity to meet lots of people. I did have a lot of deeper, relationship oriented criteria, but those qualities would only reveal themselves in time. Not in a profile or on a first date.

And finally I had a good attitude. Most dates went nowhere. Lots of false starts. But I didn’t get discouraged. If someone I was attracted to wasn’t attracted to me, it didn’t bother me. Just part of the process.

And as I’ve said, I ended up finding my wife doing this, so it worked. But I was committed to the process.

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Weezy1973

[ZA Dater]

15 hours ago, Cookiesandough said:

So I only see three real options here. . One is to not change much and keep searching and hoping, the second is to give up, and the last, and what most people have been suggesting in one way or another, is to up your D/SMV.   There is really no other way to attract people that you meet that you’re attracted to but aren’t attracted to you than to up your SMV in some way. That is just the nature of the beast. Dating is a competition in a lot of ways. People match up the most with people who have  roughly equal to offer... 
 

I don't know how to do that, honestly I do not. But I commend your honesty in admitting it is indeed a competition at least I agree with that and that much has become obvious to me a long time ago.

 

[ZA Dater]

15 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

But that’s not really all you’re looking for. If you genuinely think that going on one date with someone you found attractive who also found you attractive would just satisfy you so you could die a happy man, I’m afraid you’re lying to yourself.

I’d definitely saying being honest to yourself about what you find attractive is a good idea. Is it really every woman except one’s that are obese? What about redheads? Or other races? If you list out all your physical dealbreakers, how many are there really? Crooked teeth? Big nose? Acne? Apple shaped? Pear shaped? I’m not talking about your absolute ideal - just the dealbreakers. You go round and round on this question too. 

Well I'd take one really good date over 40 bad ones that's for sure! Over the years my expectations have really dropped to that being all I really want, anything else is just fanciful.

My deal breakers ok sure and I mean no offense to anyone here.

1: Poor vocab, sorry that I cannot deal with no matter what you look like.

2: Lack of ambition, again I cannot deal with this

3: Apathy, again complete deal breaker

4: Drugs and trance parties, either of those activities I am not interested

5: Overly religious, complete deal breaker

6: Lack of wow, sorry I will get slammed for this but I put in some effort to wow whoever I am sitting in front of, putting my best foot forward I would at least expect her to actually do the same and give me some reason as to why I would want to spend time with her, this is a big one because its almost NEVER I find this.

7: Physical is more out of shape people, I don't particularly like red heads.

The truth is and you re very helpful with your posts and I read them often twice or more but notice how many of my deal breakers are actually looks related...not many. I do like very attractive to me people but often what I find attractive my friend doesn't find attractive at all and vice versa, he can date models and some of them I don't really find attractive. I have spent time around very, very attractive people BUT its always there personality and the combination of looks and personality which has wowed me, not one or the other.  The ones I have met have been very self assured and almost always had an interesting story to tell.

Its hard to describe but to me an attractive person is one I like overall not just because she looks like A or B but its the overall combination.

People aren't interested in me, that's the biggest single issue, nothing about me is interesting to them so again I arrive at the negative point of view and compare myself to other who are successful.

So on the bright side I can still do a lot of things I like doing in life just doing them on my own.

 

[simpycurious]

18 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I don't know how to do that, honestly I do not. But I commend your honesty in admitting it is indeed a competition at least I agree with that and that much has become obvious to me a long time ago.

 

Life is competitive.  You have to "fight" for what you want.  YOU CAN DO IT and stop thinking otherwise.  Rely on YOURSELF.............

[thefooloftheyear]

4 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Well I'd take one really good date over 40 bad ones that's for sure! Over the years my expectations have really dropped to that being all I really want, anything else is just fanciful.

My deal breakers ok sure and I mean no offense to anyone here.

1: Poor vocab, sorry that I cannot deal with no matter what you look like.

2: Lack of ambition, again I cannot deal with this

3: Apathy, again complete deal breaker

4: Drugs and trance parties, either of those activities I am not interested

5: Overly religious, complete deal breaker

6: Lack of wow, sorry I will get slammed for this but I put in some effort to wow whoever I am sitting in front of, putting my best foot forward I would at least expect her to actually do the same and give me some reason as to why I would want to spend time with her, this is a big one because its almost NEVER I find this.

7: Physical is more out of shape people, I don't particularly like red heads.

The truth is and you re very helpful with your posts and I read them often twice or more but notice how many of my deal breakers are actually looks related...not many. I do like very attractive to me people but often what I find attractive my friend doesn't find attractive at all and vice versa, he can date models and some of them I don't really find attractive. I have spent time around very, very attractive people BUT its always there personality and the combination of looks and personality which has wowed me, not one or the other.  The ones I have met have been very self assured and almost always had an interesting story to tell.

Its hard to describe but to me an attractive person is one I like overall not just because she looks like A or B but its the overall combination.

People aren't interested in me, that's the biggest single issue, nothing about me is interesting to them so again I arrive at the negative point of view and compare myself to other who are successful.

So on the bright side I can still do a lot of things I like doing in life just doing them on my own.

 

Bud....in life you usually get what you deserve, not necessarily what you want....

TFY

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Bud....in life you usually get what you deserve, not necessarily what you want....

TFY

In which case if what I deserve is someone I don't like then I guess I'd rather have nothing at all.

[Emilie Jolie]

How long have been seeking dates for, or at least using OLD, ZA?

[ZA Dater]

10 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

How long have been seeking dates for, or at least using OLD, ZA?

Only ever used OLD. Never had much other opportunity. I have had to work very hard to become a more confident person socially but I think I have mostly accomplished that to some degree.

In terms of time, I'd guess 16 years or so. It seems like forever and when I read the advice here about OLD my experiences have not been similar.

[Weezy1973]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

My deal breakers ok sure and I mean no offense to anyone here.

1: Poor vocab, sorry that I cannot deal with no matter what you look like.

2: Lack of ambition, again I cannot deal with this

3: Apathy, again complete deal breaker

4: Drugs and trance parties, either of those activities I am not interested

5: Overly religious, complete deal breaker

6: Lack of wow, sorry I will get slammed for this but I put in some effort to wow whoever I am sitting in front of, putting my best foot forward I would at least expect her to actually do the same and give me some reason as to why I would want to spend time with her, this is a big one because its almost NEVER I find this.

7: Physical is more out of shape people, I don't particularly like red heads.

 

Your list of dealbreakers isn’t egregious at all, although I will note that a lot of them are relative, so tough to know how many people you’re discounting. Most of the time people relate things to themselves which is understandable.

 

The only point I would call out is point 6 - lack of wow. A first date can lack wow for so many factors. I found I was fine with a second date if there seemed to be okay potential. Just saying I’ve had many Wow first dates, end up going nowhere, or worse turning into dysfunctional relationships because I ignored flags due to initial wow. A first date wow really doesn’t matter much. 
 

Also I’ll just briefly point out that South Africa has a smaller portion of the population with a university education then comparable developed countries. If there’s a generally anti-intellectual mentality to the culture there, it just means you’ll have to be even more patient in your search if that’s what you’re seeking.

[Emilie Jolie]

16 years on OLD...

That's a long time. Too long, even.

I know I've said that before a handful of times, but I've not changed my mind: I seriously think you need to drop OLD, take some distance from it and focus on other stuff.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[ZA Dater]

A lot of the time I wish I could have a second chance with some of the better dates but in reality that never happens. There were two people I met not via OLD and both had a certain attraction, one I found interesting because she was different but unfortunately for me I was many she had the choice of so I pretty much just gave up before I was rejected.

The person who commented about value and sexual value is right, I cant dispute that. How on earth one raises that value is probably beyond me to be fair.

At least I can window shop.

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, Emilie Jolie said:

That's a long time. Too long, even.

I know I've said that before a handful of times, but I've not changed my mind: I seriously think you need to drop OLD, take some distance from it and focus on other stuff.

I agree with you. The problem is if I do that I don't feel like I am doing anything to find any sort of connection at all. But fair point you are probably right.

[Emilie Jolie]

1 minute ago, ZA Dater said:

I agree with you. The problem is if I do that I don't feel like I am doing anything to find any sort of connection at all. But fair point you are probably right.

Well, this particular avenue has not worked for you in 16 years. Sure the next date could be the one, or you could lose your mental health and a little more hope each day. You won't stop looking for a connection - you'll just stop putting undue pressure on yourself. That's what I think anyway, but of course it's up to you.

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Also I’ll just briefly point out that South Africa has a smaller portion of the population with a university education then comparable developed countries. If there’s a generally anti-intellectual mentality to the culture there, it just means you’ll have to be even more patient in your search if that’s what you’re seeking.

Thank you for pointing this out.  There is a hugely apathetic culture here which is why  keep saying the better dates have been with tourists. But there are educated people here but even that is no assurance they wont be apathetic.

What I have realised is its near to impossible so my strategy was always to just be this outlier, this different person in the hope that being authentic would count for something but I cannot tell you how poorly this actually works, I have been passed over reason ranging from religion to the most often cited one "you don't drink". On OLD I always seem to find the same kind of people and with respect I think this is a SA problem in part, OLD was and is to some extent seen as taboo here, you wont find many people admitting to being on it. Tinder I reckon is more suited to hook ups than actually dating, which is I guess is awesome if you have a high value.

Me with skinny/athletic looks and average/ugly face isn't going to find much value there, irrespective of what else  I have going on in life. Its very difficult to keep running up against this wall over and over again.

 

[ZA Dater]

2 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Well, this particular avenue has not worked for you in 16 years. Sure the next date could be the one, or you could lose your mental health and a little more hope each day. You won't stop looking for a connection - you'll just stop putting undue pressure on yourself. That's what I think anyway, but of course it's up to you.

I am getting out of OLD because its done nothing to build me up and frankly hope disappeared after that date last year where ostensibly it should have worked but didn't and if that does not work then to be honest I don't believe it ever will for me.

Let me tell you I am quite sore about some of these dates, going back years because there were people I really liked and wanted to spend time with but a kick in the teeth is what I got.

I still fundamentally believe there are good people in this world, caring, honest, warm nice people but I just never seem to find them ever.

[Emilie Jolie]

19 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I still fundamentally believe there are good people in this world, caring, honest, warm nice people but I just never seem to find them ever.

There are, probably even on OLD.

You just need to unburden yourself of this massive noose around your neck and live life care-free for a little while at least, see where that takes you.

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 5/25/2020 at 12:02 PM, ZA Dater said:

I don't disagree with you but there is zero ROI with dating, absolutely nothing good about it for me at all. I have tried and tried for years and in some respects I regret that because I could have spent the time doing things which may have given better ROI.  In addition the big difference with your analogy is that with stocks you can cash out and get something out of it, what do I really get out of dating? On the face of it nothing, all I end up doing is putting myself under scrutiny to try and rationalise a lack of success.

At no point do I really like the results I have gotten have improved, not at all, if anything the choice of people who find me attractive is worse now than it was 5 years ago. SO yes trying to extract any positive from it is very difficult if I look at all the experiences together, sure there have been good ones but the results never were, all they prompted was even more self scrutiny to answer a question of: why.

I do everything I know on dates but its never enough so that puts me in this space where sure there is a lot of good advice and I have tried LOTS of it. I could accept ALL of the bad if there was just a tiny bit of good but there never really is. For example about 6 years ago I had a date with an au pair, again off some dating site, we got along really well, date was good but "there is no chemistry", so no when I see a stock fall there is always usually a market related reason, with dating there is no rational reason for anything.

My generalised views are wrong and I accept that but they are also derived on experiences I have had and observations I have made. I truly admire a lot of people here because each of you have had some success and that's an accomplishment in itself. Am I wrong in my approach, maybe. Do I think more 'work" will get better outcomes I don't know because for me I transfer OLD onto society as a whole and I look at what hasn't worked for me there and when I apply it to society I just realise the same things hold true there. It is extremely hard to find confidence in constant failure what is easy to find in that is cynicism and when you start looking at things with that point of view you arrive at the views and perceptions I have.

Can go back years to try and rationalise my lack of dating success, I can go back to school where politics interested me more than discos(remember them) and where cars enthralled me more than rugby or when I decided to pick studying over spending time with that girl in 11th grade or time  asked someone out in front of a group and got turned down and laughed at or the time I landed up with nobody to take the senior dance. I can go on and on, trivial yes but a part of the larger picture of no real success. Eventually I got tired of this and realised that the whole thing was a lot of nonsense so went out to try find "experience" well that proved even more impossible than dating.

I go on dates and my entire viewpoint of life does not synch with theirs most of the time but when it does its amazing but that's maybe happened 5 times at most, again I suppose I am at fault for looking at things the way I do. Again that is me trying to rationalise something.

I understand they want fun, I understand they want to laugh, I understand they want to connect and I do try and try and try but never ever get anywhere at all. Or more irritatingly find the spectre of judgement is never far away. Honestly I go on a date with the view of trying to make a friend because frankly I wouldn't know how to do anything else. Nothing I seem to do is ever good enough but frankly it would seem I am just not good enough either.

Either I choose to enjoy the frankly small number of good experiences or I wallow in the bad ones, you try being 36 and being asked when you will find a gf, you try going to events and have people muttering behind your back, you face that stigma of society and tell me how that feels, the answer is not very good. Options collapse in a heap and never go outside, go outside but make sure you are so shielded that you frankly never give much emotion away at all, commit to work keep yourself busy as possible.

How would I fix this, well I have thought about this many times, probably I'd have myself introduced to someone who either takes me on as a project or accepts who I am but why would a marketable person do that, in short they would not, this would only work if the person was someone like me and that would never interest me much the same way I never interest anyone I really do like. SO yes do the math on that and you get a lovely answer of zero.

Please won't you find a therapist? Only she or he will honestly take a look at all of this and help you figure out what really is going on here. A date never will, a dating coach isn't qualified, your friends won't, and we can't because we can't see you, watch you, listen to you.

The longer you put it off, the more years are going by. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

50 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

e with skinny/athletic looks and average/ugly face isn't going to find much value there, irrespective of what else  I have going on in life. Its very difficult to keep running up against this wall over and over again.

 

You say this but you know it's not true since you claimed in this thread that you posted pics of you, *your face* with a six-pack body and were flooded with messages.

What I'm about to say is truly intended to help...because you are really unhappy. And we are not making you any happier...and it feels like you're reaching a crisis. 

How much longer do you want to avoid whatever is really going on here? I'm going to address the elephant in the room. You say you're only 36. Maybe...I don't want to doubt it but your pic looks like a Polaroid, you talk about discos...you talk about dating in pre-internet days...even taking 36 at face value how much older do you want to get and still find excuses, blaming it on others' shallowness, on fat women, on OLD, and constantly changing the script? Find a therapist. A really good, qualified, sensitive therapist. It's time to stop this merry go round. Even if you decide never to date again, something bigger is going on here. Stop hiding, find out what's going on and start being happy. Everyone deserves that.

Edited May 26, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[Miss Spider]

59 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

I am getting out of OLD because its done nothing to build me up and frankly hope disappeared after that date last year where ostensibly it should have worked but didn't and if that does not work then to be honest I don't believe it ever will for me.

Let me tell you I am quite sore about some of these dates, going back years because there were people I really liked and wanted to spend time with but a kick in the teeth is what I got.

I still fundamentally believe there are good people in this world, caring, honest, warm nice people but I just never seem to find them ever.

The thing is that being nice isn’t the same as being useful. Utility is ultimately what people are looking for in dating. Nice is the bare-bones minimum. 
 

What have you done/changed about yourself to try to be  more desirable to your ideal woman ? Sorry if I missed it. It’s been a while since I’ve read the thread. 
 

 It’s probably for the best you stopped online dating. It can be very defeating to people and think really only used as a dating supplement at most. Are there any hobbies you have or could possibly be interested in that can put you in contact with the women you want