do you just eventually give up?

[Ollie180]

56 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

There is one big difference here: You were working off a base of past success, I have no past success at all, its all a pretty meh or just rejection. Heck at 36 I have hardly been kissed, I cannot say "yeh that was great I had 3 dates with her". So you had some confidence based on past success, I cannot find any.

For me nobody puts in effort with me so why should in any effort with people who don't appeal to me based on what I like? I have tried before with people I do like but not even a half decent date gets me another date. Doesn't matter what I say or do, the result is always the same, coffee date, activity date, dinner, lunch, event, doesn't make any difference at all.

Where do you suggest I go out?

Yeah I hear that.. past success increases confidence, but, I still got blindsided by falling for a girl I didn’t notice to start with...

...I’m not saying date a girl you don’t find attractive. I’m saying be around girls, get to know them with no motive and you might be surprised!! 

(and even if you just make a friend ....straight up fact - girl mates have set me up with way better dates than gut mates ever have!!)

 

Where should you go out? ...depends on you I guess, no point going places that aren’t your “scene” but places it’s normal for both sexes to hang out - I always used to meet girls at the beach!

Can’t you ask your mates to set you up? - but don’t be fussy, go into it with the idea to make another mate, it it’s more cracking, if it’s not, that’s another girl who might have a friend who she might introduce you to one day!

[SumGuy]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I disagree. What works on Tinder will work on every other platform including in person. Bumble is much the same, as is OK cupid.

That is not what I said.   You've got  the logic reversed.  You know that though. 

Just because looks are the only thing that really work on Tinder and its ilk (and that looks may well work on other sites as well) does not mean that what doesn't work on Tinder also fails to work on other sites.  It doesn't mean that looks (and I guess you throw in money from time to time) is all that matters on other site.   Tinder and its ilk are not the world of dating or how the end all be all of how people select someone to date.

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Ollie180 said:

Yeah I hear that.. past success increases confidence, but, I still got blindsided by falling for a girl I didn’t notice to start with...

...I’m not saying date a girl you don’t find attractive. I’m saying be around girls, get to know them with no motive and you might be surprised!! 

(and even if you just make a friend ....straight up fact - girl mates have set me up with way better dates than gut mates ever have!!)

 

Where should you go out? ...depends on you I guess, no point going places that aren’t your “scene” but places it’s normal for both sexes to hang out - I always used to meet girls at the beach!

Can’t you ask your mates to set you up? - but don’t be fussy, go into it with the idea to make another mate, it it’s more cracking, if it’s not, that’s another girl who might have a friend who she might introduce you to one day!

Here is the thing. I have ladies I am "friends" with but more because its a work scenario rather than a social one so I am always compartmentalised, I have a specific purpose for them so there is no real socialising, sure over the years people try to set me up but honestly the matches have been very poor, great people but I never stood a chance with them because they were not interested in my in any way at all.

An example of this is the following

Friend of mine meets this very pretty lady,  there was a business angle to it, he mentions to here in time I battle to date, she suggests she will fix this and introduce me to her friends at a club. Very reluctantly I go along with this bear in mind she has never met me before this and I don't like clubs and I don't drink.

So off I go friend along with me, I get introduced to 4 ladies and instantly I realise this isn't going to work

1: They had already been drinking

2: I am very clearly not their type I try talk to them and just get ignored.

3: Short of it was it the evening was truly awful in every way imaginable.

Other set ups have been not quite as bad but the people get put on the spot "hey why don't you and J go out" q lady looking very uncomfortable and me even more so. So these set up drain yet more confidence, the one time I thought it did work, well it turned out she just used me to get around town and for lunches, all the time she was chasing another guy.

Reality is I think most have given up wanting to help me in any meaningful way that's actually helpful, what they do now is just make me feel a little less alone, a little more relevant by simply being nice to me, which I guess sounds pathetic but its refreshing to just have someone I can be me around and while they wont set me up with their friends every few weeks or so for a few minutes it actually feels like some lady is actually interested in me enough to care and ask questions.

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Connection. What is that exactly, objectively what is it? For me its simply common beliefs and ideals.

Common beliefs and ideals maybe but there has to be a desire to spend time with that person again either as a friend or as a lover.
One can spend hours talking to someone but with no real connection felt, there may be no desire to see them again and no desire to find out more about them.
There may be things that come up in that conversation that may be dealbeakers, there may little interest generated, there may be a coming to an end of things to talk about.
One person may be entranced whereas the other may feel they are struggling to find common ground and find the whole conversation to be hard work
The connection needs to be mutual.

[ZA Dater]

39 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

That is not what I said.   You've got  the logic reversed.  You know that though. 

Just because looks are the only thing that really work on Tinder and its ilk (and that looks may well work on other sites as well) does not mean that what doesn't work on Tinder also fails to work on other sites.  It doesn't mean that looks (and I guess you throw in money from time to time) is all that matters on other site.   Tinder and its ilk are not the world of dating or how the end all be all of how people select someone to date.

I have been on every single dating site relevant to SA and funnily enough they all seem to work the same way. If what you say is true then I have no idea why I have such poor luck barring the fact I stand by my morals and simply see not point in going places I don't enjoy simply because everyone else goes there or doing things I don't enjoy simply well because everyone else seemingly does.

You and others have taken (and I thank you) time to point out looks don't matter, however if they didn't then why does being honest, interested in others, fairly smart, ambitious and driven not really count either? What does count?

[ZA Dater]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

The connection needs to be mutual.

Which simply doesn't happen with me, I have more success digging in my back yard and finding oil.

[an0nym0us123]

3 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Thank you for at least acknowledging this.

You either find the person attractive or you don't and with a new match a swipe away who is going to invest time to see of the person "maybe" become attractive? Very few is the answer.

Why would they?

I know some attractive women who are horrible people. Literally would not give them the time of day if you paid.

I know some very nice women who are certainly much less physically attractive to me at least.

I have never developed feelings for a woman who did not appeal to me physically and did not have a personality that got me excited.

I have had fwb that went on for months, seen them numerous times and messaging inbetween. There were a couple and tbh they did not really press my buttons either with how they looked or acted. Even though they were nice enough.

When they decided they had had enough i wasnt bothered because i had no feelings. 

[SumGuy]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

Connection. What is that exactly, objectively what is it? For me its simply common beliefs and ideals.

You say its looks, I have NEVER met an attractive lady who struggled to find dates. So yes I'd wager looks are a huge advantage in that you can conjure up some interest.

Let's take the last one fist, of course good looks are an advantage, never said otherwise. Your "huge advantage" argument is side-stepping what I am saying.

The flaw in your world view that looks are really all that matter, is the pernicious axiom your world view relies on that "good looks" is a limited parameter space, especially for women. 

If your profile pic is you, you are no where near being unattractive and can bet there is a good looking woman out there who loves your look.   Go to them gym and get buffed up and you'll be even better from the "looks" end of it.  You really can;t blame your looks because they are not bad and you can get in shape through working out.  Even if you are 100% correct that looks is pretty much it, you cling to the idea that you are hopeless and there is nothing you can do in this regard.  Your face looks fine, and the shape your body is in is 100% under your control.

So you really can't use looks as an excuse.

 

I am really surprised at your world view because your response implies you know enough attractive ladies well enough to have them confide in you about their dating life.  Certainly attractive people don't "struggle" to find a warm body that is average or above, or someone to use.  That is a freakin' low bar. 

In my experience, decent attractive people have a hard time finding a decent person, just like the rest of us that are looking for a relationship.  Attractive people have to struggle finding someone who like them for them, especially women as men will go to incredible lengths and hide their true selves to get with an attractive woman.

I'm not speaking to those who are just looking for "anything" because that usually means just sex (and I don't give out such advice to people I don't know).   I'm also not speaking to those who say they can't find anyone, because they often can find someone, they are not just looking for someone, usually they have a very high bar in looks, manner, etc. (and potentially deference), a bar than the "attractive people" they so want.

 

Now to connection.  Common beliefs and ideals certainly matter, but there can be and there often is more unless one starts lumping everything into one of those two categories. 

I can't tell you what connection is until you are ready to learn to listen.  Once you learn to listen then you will understand that although one can define contours, it is not amiable to the kind of exact, objective definition I suspect you want.  That doesn't make it any less real, important or the definition it does have enough.   If you can even think there is an exact, objective definition for something that is a feeling, this shows how so unready you are.   

Moreover, I believe you believe you are smart, so why ask me?   You know there are plenty of dictionaries on-line.  And the concept is not new, it is very, very, very old.  Books, art, song, in profusion carry this concept.   Look in to it. 

So why should I define it for you?  I suspect whatever I say will just be picked at as "imprecise" and because it is imprecise or not absolutely knowable you will commit the fallacy that you can thus dismiss it.  

In my opinion, no amount of advice or counter examples is going to help you until you can begin to see beyond your current views.  Alas I will give you one piece of advice, world view is a huge part of connection.    

[SumGuy]

43 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

You and others have taken (and I thank you) time to point out looks don't matter, however if they didn't then why does being honest, interested in others, fairly smart, ambitious and driven not really count either? What does count?

I'll clarify, just this one last time I (and most other posters I believe) are not saying looks don't matter, rather:

(1) they are not all that matters and often maybe not even in the top 3 for many women, even attractive ones; 

(2) there is no one look, especially among women, you don't need to be a movie star to be some highly attractive woman's cup of tea;

(3) from your pic, your looks are no where near the ugly category for most, so at least in your case your face is not the thing holding you back, in fact, from what I can tell you are above average;

(4) from your pic it's not your body, far from it, you seem in shape, but even if is was your body that is on you to get it there before you call it hopeless.

 

So yes looks matter, they do help, but they are not determinative and I see no physical evidence from how you look to conclude that looks are the source of your problem.

Edited April 27, 2020 by SumGuy

[Emilie Jolie]

Sounds like you're a man on mission. As long as you're not doing it to make a point or 'prove your worth' to those in your past who made you feel this bad (probably worth exploring, seems like an interesting line of enquery on its own merit), you just go for it.

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[an0nym0us123]

2 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

 

You and others have taken (and I thank you) time to point out looks don't matter, however if they didn't then why does being honest, interested in others, fairly smart, ambitious and driven not really count either? What does count?

I have not personally found that success or ambition have made any difference for a man in the dating world. If it was i would do pretty well.

 

[Cookiesandough]

Let's say you never meet someone ....and years down the road you become comfortable with that, so you just don't care anymore and content being single. Have you "given up" ? Maybe, but maybe you're better for it than if you were still struggling with dating or stuck in bad or dissatisfying relationship. It sounds like the negative connotation comes more from the romantic failure from someone who wants it. If you just give up...you stop caring..so doesn't matter. Know people like this

Edited April 27, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[basil67]

15 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

SO once again its me who must bend over backward in desperation. "Yeh well she isn't really attractive to me but you know maybe if I convince myself she is she will be". Sorry but that is to me completely pointless. I find it amusing that this advice is ALWAYS directed at men but never the other way round.

And yet, as a woman, I have always done exactly what Ollie says.  Why is it a fairy tale when I do it but appalling if you have to do the same?

[basil67]

6 hours ago, ZA Dater said:

I have been on every single dating site relevant to SA and funnily enough they all seem to work the same way. If what you say is true then I have no idea why I have such poor luck barring the fact I stand by my morals and simply see not point in going places I don't enjoy simply because everyone else goes there or doing things I don't enjoy simply well because everyone else seemingly does.

You and others have taken (and I thank you) time to point out looks don't matter, however if they didn't then why does being honest, interested in others, fairly smart, ambitious and driven not really count either? What does count?

What counts is emotional connection.   Being honest can be good, but there's such a thing as being too honest.   Smart is good.  Driven and ambitious is hazy: it won't get one a date.  And if one is ambitious and driven to the point where they are a workaholic, it's not good.  However, if the underlying emotional connection is good, and the person works hard but has a good life balance, then it's an added bonus.

As for being interested in others, I would challenge this assertion as I don't see that evidenced any of your posting.  Especially as you don't see the point of having friends.

Regarding your 'morals' of not going to places you don't enjoy - you've made it clear that the places you don't enjoy include pubs and clubs etc.   Does this mean that if you have a lovely girlfriend who wants to try the tapas at a new wine bar, you would refuse to go?   Would you also refuse to go to her best friend's 30th birthday if it was held in a pub?  Please tell me your rule is not this hard and fast.

When I said that I wouldn't date the kind of person who's on Tinder, you asked me "what kind of person is on Tinder?"   I thought I made it clear that Tinder is for those who's primary criteria for matching a person is appearance.   Hubby looked at someone's Tinder feed and said the concept is "shallow and cruel".   So yeah, someone who suits Tinder is someone I would avoid.

[Weezy1973]

What I’m trying to wrap my head around @ZA Dater is that you have had absolutely no success with love or romance (by your own admission). So you post on this forum and get advice from people who have had all sorts of success in that department- ranging from casual sex right up to marriage and kids. And then you dismiss all the advice.

 

And I accept that this is part of the human condition. Changing our thoughts and beliefs doesn’t come easily. But you have to admit, that without a doubt, your ideas, thoughts and beliefs when it comes to love and romance aren’t working. So wouldn’t it be at least worth considering the possibility that letting go of those unhealthy beliefs and developing healthier beliefs might help you start achieving more success? 

[Emilie Jolie]

My take is that ZA Dater is on a 'I'll prove them all wrong and show them all what a success I am' Count of Monte Christo mission that is too rooted to be reasoned with. Only a universally attractive woman will do to tick that box.

(Feel free to correct me, ZA Dater.)

Edited April 28, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[ZA Dater]

2 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

What I’m trying to wrap my head around @ZA Dater is that you have had absolutely no success with love or romance (by your own admission). So you post on this forum and get advice from people who have had all sorts of success in that department- ranging from casual sex right up to marriage and kids. And then you dismiss all the advice.

 

And I accept that this is part of the human condition. Changing our thoughts and beliefs doesn’t come easily. But you have to admit, that without a doubt, your ideas, thoughts and beliefs when it comes to love and romance aren’t working. So wouldn’t it be at least worth considering the possibility that letting go of those unhealthy beliefs and developing healthier beliefs might help you start achieving more success? 

Sure I am prepared to let that go but I refuse to go out with people I don't find attractive which is what much of the advice seems to advocate. Someone I don't find attractive in the first 5 minutes I wont find attractive in 5 hours or 5 days. All I am doing here is apply the exact same "standard" which is applied to me. Before you accuse me of not giving people a chance I should say I have been on MANY dates with people I met up with even though the conversation really wasn't much to me interest and I didn't find them attractive so I gave them the benefit of the doubt and met them anyway.

Beliefs are largely built on experience and you cannot say they are wrong if they are derived from own experiences.

[ZA Dater]

14 hours ago, basil67 said:

As for being interested in others, I would challenge this assertion as I don't see that evidenced any of your posting.  Especially as you don't see the point of having friends.

Regarding your 'morals' of not going to places you don't enjoy - you've made it clear that the places you don't enjoy include pubs and clubs etc.   Does this mean that if you have a lovely girlfriend who wants to try the tapas at a new wine bar, you would refuse to go?   Would you also refuse to go to her best friend's 30th birthday if it was held in a pub?  Please tell me your rule is not this hard and fast.

When I said that I wouldn't date the kind of person who's on Tinder, you asked me "what kind of person is on Tinder?"   I thought I made it clear that Tinder is for those who's primary criteria for matching a person is appearance.   Hubby looked at someone's Tinder feed and said the concept is "shallow and cruel".   So yeah, someone who suits Tinder is someone I would avoid.

I have acquaintances, that's about as close to friends as I mostly get, overall I'd say I have five friends I see with various levels of frequency. Sure, I'd go to said pub and I would try enjoy myself. That's called compromising and I'd be happy to do that for the right person.

You cannot get away from the fact that Tinder and its ilk are billion dollar industries so if anything I'd wager more people use it than not, especially in the younger demographic. I have met some very decent educated people on Tinder in fact I have met more people from there than any other dating platform. I'd agree with your husband. However sadly neither her nor I can challenge the ever changing way society view dating and companionship.

[ZA Dater]

21 hours ago, SumGuy said:

I'll clarify, just this one last time I (and most other posters I believe) are not saying looks don't matter, rather:

(1) they are not all that matters and often maybe not even in the top 3 for many women, even attractive ones; 

(2) there is no one look, especially among women, you don't need to be a movie star to be some highly attractive woman's cup of tea;

(3) from your pic, your looks are no where near the ugly category for most, so at least in your case your face is not the thing holding you back, in fact, from what I can tell you are above average;

(4) from your pic it's not your body, far from it, you seem in shape, but even if is was your body that is on you to get it there before you call it hopeless.

 

So yes looks matter, they do help, but they are not determinative and I see no physical evidence from how you look to conclude that looks are the source of your problem.

Ok I will concede point 1. However would you agree they are important AT first?

Point 3 is categorically not true, if it were I would get decent matches, instead I get the exact people I find completely unattractive so I would say looks do hold me back to an extent, so does lack of confidence.

The point I am trying to make here is very simple and please correct me if you don't think this is logical: if a certain person matches with me on Tinder its highly possible that the same person would take an interest in me sitting at a bar at a coffee shop? If the person doesn't take an interest in me what is the point really, why even bother?  All I am doing her is basic benchmarking, determining what sort of people do find me attractive.

I look around me when I go out and I always see the same thing, the same sort of match ups and perhaps this is skewed because the places I like do typically attract the "pretty" people. I like them for other reasons than the people who frequent them.

[ZA Dater]

21 hours ago, an0nym0us123 said:

bothered because i had no feelings. 

This is what I mean by being wowed, I need to feel something for that person, whether is impressed, charmed or any other sort of feeling but unfortunately most people simply evoke no feeling at all for me.

[ZA Dater]

21 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Let's take the last one fist, of course good looks are an advantage, never said otherwise. Your "huge advantage" argument is side-stepping what I am saying.

The flaw in your world view that looks are really all that matter, is the pernicious axiom your world view relies on that "good looks" is a limited parameter space, especially for women. 

If your profile pic is you, you are no where near being unattractive and can bet there is a good looking woman out there who loves your look.   Go to them gym and get buffed up and you'll be even better from the "looks" end of it.  You really can;t blame your looks because they are not bad and you can get in shape through working out.  Even if you are 100% correct that looks is pretty much it, you cling to the idea that you are hopeless and there is nothing you can do in this regard.  Your face looks fine, and the shape your body is in is 100% under your control.

So you really can't use looks as an excuse.

 

I am really surprised at your world view because your response implies you know enough attractive ladies well enough to have them confide in you about their dating life.  Certainly attractive people don't "struggle" to find a warm body that is average or above, or someone to use.  That is a freakin' low bar. 

In my experience, decent attractive people have a hard time finding a decent person, just like the rest of us that are looking for a relationship.  Attractive people have to struggle finding someone who like them for them, especially women as men will go to incredible lengths and hide their true selves to get with an attractive woman.

I'm not speaking to those who are just looking for "anything" because that usually means just sex (and I don't give out such advice to people I don't know).   I'm also not speaking to those who say they can't find anyone, because they often can find someone, they are not just looking for someone, usually they have a very high bar in looks, manner, etc. (and potentially deference), a bar than the "attractive people" they so want.

Ok I'll spin this another way. The people on this forum are smarter and more intellectual than probably 90% of the dates I have been on, why because despite my stubbornness there is some common ground here. Which is why I look for that on dates but it never really arrives in any form whatsoever, the people are simply aren't interesting enough and I guess they'd say that about me too. Which is why I look at overall compatibility of the person, can I get along with then, is there enough synergy between us, would I want to spend time with the person and these are the questions I ask myself. If I get yes to many of these then I will really put in the effort but someone brought up set up dates, these never really give me this between dare I say it I am fundamentally incompatible with those people.

I could get over looks to an extent if the person could at least wow me in other ways but the reality there needs to be some physical attraction, the last date I went on was super smart and we chatted well but I found her very physically unattractive.

The confiding goes one way not both ways.

I believe we all set the bar somewhere, my bar is very high but its based on people I have actually met and spent time with rather than some fictional ideal. As for looks you might think I am ok looking but the dating pool here doesn't , if they did I'd be matching with slim athletic people not the exact opposite of that.

Lets forget Tinder, how well do I do in person, the answer is very poorly though well enough I can hold a conversation if there is some sort of mutual topic to talk about, I have had a few decent conversations and I think some of those women found me curiously different, though there were only two of them who spring to mind. Ultimately I knew I had nothing to offer either of them, I was quite stupid in respect of the one because I do wonder if I had managed to find my A game that day I might have had a better result, then again I saw her about 2 months ago and the guy she had next to her was certainly what I'd imagine she would go for, which is to say the polar opposite of me.

That's the thing with me, I always feel like am competing with everyone else in whatever I do and put simply I cant when it comes to dating, other things sure. I really liked a yoga instructor and I think I made that clear enough, only to find she was simply using me while she chased some guy who actually didn't really like her too much, she was trying to woo him. I simply got friend zoned.

 

 

[Weezy1973]

46 minutes ago, ZA Dater said:

Beliefs are largely built on experience and you cannot say they are wrong if they are derived from own experiences.

It’s not about right or wrong. It’s about healthy and unhealthy or put another way, beliefs that lead to behaviours which lead to success (healthy beliefs) or failure (unhealthy beliefs). The only question to ask about ones beliefs is: “is this belief helpful”.

And just to be clear nobody is advocating you form a romantic relationship with someone you’re not attracted to. What we’re saying is that attraction can build over time, so it’s common that you find someone might not turn your head initially but with time, due to intangibles, you become attracted to them. So by the time you’re ready to date, you ARE attracted to them.

I know this is hard to fathom when your almost exclusive way to get dates is from Tinder, but it really can and does work this way for lots and lots of people! And can even work with online dating if you do it correctly. 

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, ZA Dater said:

Beliefs are largely built on experience and you cannot say they are wrong if they are derived from own experiences.

I am assuming you are not a scientist, because to any scientist that is patently false.  Beliefs based on experience need to be tested, and evidence that calls them into question not discounted but given full credit to see if the beliefs hold up.

A scientist will give you two quick examples, look out your window.   Do you see the curvature of the earth, does it look round or flat?  My experience is it looks flat therefor my belief it is flat is not wrong.   Look to the sky, does not the sun move across it, clearly my belief that the sun moves and the earth is still is correct, if the earth moves I would experience it.   Of course my experience is consistent with the truth but my beliefs are wrong.   And these are just two examples in the objective physical world where we can both agree the sun moves across the sky and what we see out our window.

Take this to the realm of interpersonal relationships and to believe that you both are always accurate in your observations/facts (i.e. experiences) and the conclusions (i.e. beliefs) you draw from them (without proper testing) is pure foolishness.  In this realm observations are littered with confirmation bias and incomplete information and perceived through the filter of your own emotions and self-image, conclusions are not drawn objectively but subjectively based on preconceived notions and the need to protect the ego or other beliefs.  That is just off the top of my head...it's way trickier than that.  

 

Don't know why in one breath you are certain you know how it works and in another you don't.  Whatever the more accurate belief is, it comes down to is what you are doing working for you or not?

I can only offer what has worked for me, for the kind of women I want most which are attractive, highly intelligent, funny, easy going, open minded, can do, insightful, passionate, spiritual, sexual goddesses.  And I am not some Adonis or Cyrano but still have been able to succeed, and just here telling you it's because of world view.   To use dating language, the proper world view calibrates you to them and situations, and allows you to pick up on signals and respond naturally and well.    It's not something to fake, it is a way of being.  

[ZA Dater]

1 hour ago, Weezy1973 said:

It’s not about right or wrong. It’s about healthy and unhealthy or put another way, beliefs that lead to behaviours which lead to success (healthy beliefs) or failure (unhealthy beliefs). The only question to ask about ones beliefs is: “is this belief helpful”.

And just to be clear nobody is advocating you form a romantic relationship with someone you’re not attracted to. What we’re saying is that attraction can build over time, so it’s common that you find someone might not turn your head initially but with time, due to intangibles, you become attracted to them. So by the time you’re ready to date, you ARE attracted to them.

I know this is hard to fathom when your almost exclusive way to get dates is from Tinder, but it really can and does work this way for lots and lots of people! And can even work with online dating if you do it correctly. 

My fundamental issue with what you advocate is why must I always be the one who has to bend over backwards? It would have been nice if one of the dates I did enjoy gave me the same "chance". Again it brings me back to the seemingly inherent fact "women choose" "men rock up and hope to be chosen".

Someone who isn't physically appealing will never become so matter what intangible there are and based on the throw away approach dates adopt me with me it would seem women would agree with this too.

[ZA Dater]

33 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

I can only offer what has worked for me, for the kind of women I want most which are attractive, highly intelligent, funny, easy going, open minded, can do, insightful, passionate, spiritual, sexual goddesses.  And I am not some Adonis or Cyrano but still have been able to succeed, and just here telling you it's because of world view.   To use dating language, the proper world view calibrates you to them and situations, and allows you to pick up on signals and respond naturally and well.    It's not something to fake, it is a way of being.  

Which is impossible I have no experience at all, I have no idea who likes me and who doesnt. Which again takes me to another thing I am often described by the very few honest dates I have had as "awkward" which is function of shy, you can see how that doesn't work so well with dating. People here tell me I must go so and so endless opportunities to wow me yet the reverse is never true, which I guess is because women have a higher value than I do, hence they have more options, especially the ones I like.

Clearly I don't think the same way you do or share the same world which I could argue is not universal but for the sake of this I will agree with you, its universal.

I would agree that apparently it seems one needs fairly universal qualities to actually enjoy any sort of success. You need confidence which is difficult to find when you just get kicked in the face, you can be shy because apparently that shows weakness, you need to be funny even if you aren't then you just pretend to be someone you aren't. Would you agree that most of it is just an act?

I have seen guys charm and flirt and honestly I see such good acting its deserves an award, so much rubbish being spun in the hope she will laugh, smile and find him captivating. What if you don't trade on those things? I'll tell you what I trade on, being honest so those larks don't come naturally to me and in fact having tried them before it didn't feel great about doing it either. However I did realise the more elaborate nonsense you can come up with the more apparently captivating one became. Here is the thing when I go on a date I want to be me, not some fake version of myself. Sure I go and be the best version of me, the least shy the least awkward the most pleasant, the most engaging so I do try put my best foot forward.

Mostly though I find myself going on dates I shouldn't be going on because the people don't really interest me at all nor do I find them attractive. Thinking back over the past year the people who interested me the most were the ones I would have the lease success with but there was always something about them which made them stand out.

Perhaps some people are just luckier than others. Some have more universal personalities than other and some are more appealing than others. At least I can walk around and pretend I am one of those even if I am not.