Considering divorce

[Londoner81]

Like most people who are in my situation, I have gone back and forth, forth and back and back a bit more about whether this is REALLY what I want. Some days I am more confident in my decision making process, others less so.

We’ve been married for 8 years, have 2 kids (3 & 6). The passion, the flame has long gone, we hardly talk and when we do it’s about mundane topics about each other’s days, as well as how are the kids. Whilst we live together, we really don’t spend much time together. Almost like we are just two house mates who are married.

One of my biggest frustrations is my wife’s constant focus on her self and putting her needs before mine or the families. She has a more senior role than mine and earns more money, but my career, my goals have always come second to hers. A classic example is that during the lockdown she has decided to start a new job (internal move) a decision she made on her own without thinking of the impact it would have on the family given we have 2 kids at home who need home schooling and looking after. 

The lockdown has really shone a light on everything that is wrong with our marriage and I am done. But I worry about what life will be like after I tell my wife I want out, how it will impact the kids. But I know I can’t go on like this anymore, I am mentally and physically exhausted. 

[peaceminusone]

Since you're here for advice, and a quite serious one at that... Do you mind, answering a few questions?

How long has this 'phase' been going on between you two?

How did you two get married?
 

Have you tried a serious conversation with your partner? I don't mean argument. But a chill and completely honest conversation where you have told her how flustered you feel by her behaviour? 

If she's working from home, is she really neglecting her duties as a wife and mother? Cause if she isn't neglecting the kids, then I think the problem is between you two.  

I'm sorry you're feeling this way, I hope you can give me good answers, for me to understand your situation better. 

[Londoner81]

Happy to answer your questions and thanks for your message.

I’d say we have been in this space for probably the last 2 years. But life has been always been so busy that other than when there are flare ups eg arguments, life just carries on. 

What do you mean by “how did you two get married?” Do you mean as in like a church, civil ceremony etc.?

I have told her how I feel, but it generally ends in an argument as she gets rather defensive.

I wasn’t saying she is neglecting her duties as a mother, but her choice to put this new role over the family during this lockdown situation is a classic example of doing what is right for her. Like I said, she made this decision with no discussion with her husband, yet had it been the other way around then I would certainly have spoken with her about it. In fact, I was due to start looking for a new role but I have held off given the current situation.

Yes, the problem is between my wife and I. 

[peaceminusone]

3 minutes ago, Londoner81 said:

I’d say we have been in this space for probably the last 2 years. But life has been always been so busy that other than when there are flare ups eg arguments, life just carries on. 

I have told her how I feel, but it generally ends in an argument as she gets rather defensive.

 This kind of sounds like, some arguments never completely died and became subconscious resentment.  Like, drop by drop , you've both held things against each other and are now just trapped in the role of parenting. 

 

Also, I wonder if she's the emotional manipulator type? Does she always go defensive to get rid of 'acknowledgement or acceptance that it was her fault?'  if she's repetitive , then there's a problem

 

 

6 minutes ago, Londoner81 said:

What do you mean by “how did you two get married?” Do you mean as in like a church, civil ceremony etc.?

I wasn’t saying she is neglecting her duties as a mother, but her choice to put this new role over the family during this lockdown situation is a classic example of doing what is right for her. Like I said, she made this decision with no discussion with her husband, yet had it been the other way around then I would certainly have spoken with her about it. In fact, I was due to start looking for a new role but I have held off given the current situation.

 

I meant, how did you two meet and get married. 

I can see how you must feel when she didnt discuss the 'new job' with you. 
But, tell me how did you react when you found out or when she told you , that she's working from home.

[Londoner81]

Yes, perhaps she can be emotionally manipulative. She has thrown the D word, not directly used it, as a weapon before in arguments, which would make me anxious and panicy. That has not happened for a while and to be honest, if it did, I would probably call her on it.

We met through friends, on a holiday in a group. Things moved quickly, moved in together after 6 months and got married after being together for 2 years.

She has to work from home due to the government lockdown 

[peaceminusone]

2 hours ago, Londoner81 said:

Yes, perhaps she can be emotionally manipulative. She has thrown the D word, not directly used it, as a weapon before in arguments, which would make me anxious and panicy. That has not happened for a while and to be honest, if it did, I would probably call her on it.

We met through friends, on a holiday in a group. Things moved quickly, moved in together after 6 months and got married after being together for 2 years.

She has to work from home due to the government lockdown 

I think you both need to sit down and talk. Nicely. 
Be sure to emphasize to her, in the beginning of your conversation that you just want to understand her better and want to make things work. Try to add some zing to your life, chores around the house, sex life,  and hopefully she will reciprocate. Maybe she'll start being more cooperative if she sees you put in some effort. 

Divorce is not easy, obviously you have kids and it will be a stigma for the little ones too. 

Your relation is just bland at the moment. I presume, there's no cheating going on.

Get some counseling maybe? That might help you, before you call it quits. 

Hope it works out. 

[gamon]

Might want to hold off on the big D conversation until after the lockdown is over.

 

 

[notbroken]

Routine life can get bland.  Often times our spouses get the blame for that.  It is hard (ok - impossible) to retain the new relationship excitement for decades.   Be sure it is your wife you want to get away from and not just your life.  Someone's advice was good to wait until after the lock downs are over.   However, you should definitely talk to your wife.   

My experience has shown that once someone starts throwing around the divorce word then the relationship is probably doomed - even if they never divorce.  NEVER threaten that.  If you want to get a divorce then do it - but don't make or take empty threats.  If she threatens it again ask her if that's what she wants and act accordingly but tell her never to make that threat again.  

Divorces usually happen one small step at a time.  You and your wife are walking there rapidly it sounds like.  Fix it or break it.   Talk to her.  

 

[Londoner81]

Thanks for the advice. A talk is certainly in order, but not right now given what else is going on in the world.

I have and will never, ever use the term divorce as a threat and neither has my wife, well the word anyway, she has used the act itself as a threat in a round about way.

I am just sick of being controlled, feeling like a second class citizen in the marriage and that I am stuck. I should also add that once, relatively early on in our marriage, we were having an argument, which well and truly blew up. Ironically it was at a wedding, my best friend’s, who is now divorced himself. During this argument she said, “I have given you everything, I have given you a house” (referencing a house she had bought years before we met and we ended up moving in to). It’s a statement I have never forgotten, but it made me feel like a second class citizen in the relationship.

My gut is telling me I deserve more, I deserve better but my head is telling me two different stories.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Londoner81]

Btw, I wouldn’t say my life itself is bland. I have a lot to be thankful for. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the marriage has run its course and that it’s time to move on. 

[Londoner81]

1 hour ago, gamon said:

Might want to hold off on the big D conversation until after the lockdown is over.

 

 

Yes, couldn’t agree with you more 

[mark clemson]

IF you want to try to save this, consider skilling up by reading books/articles on relationships (look for ones with solid backing, scientific evidence, and/or strong recommendations). Explain that you're feeling unhappy and have HER read the same things. Then do your talking and ask for/insist on effort from her as well to improve the marriage. This needs to be a joint effort with mutual recognition and buy in that there's "work" on yourselves and the marriage that needs to be done.

Possibly that will help. At some point the intimacy will probably need to improve as well; that could be part of an initial effort, but one step at a time.

Here's an example article you might (both) read:

https://www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11

[Londoner81]

7 hours ago, mark clemson said:

IF you want to try to save this, consider skilling up by reading books/articles on relationships (look for ones with solid backing, scientific evidence, and/or strong recommendations). Explain that you're feeling unhappy and have HER read the same things. Then do your talking and ask for/insist on effort from her as well to improve the marriage. This needs to be a joint effort with mutual recognition and buy in that there's "work" on yourselves and the marriage that needs to be done.

Possibly that will help. At some point the intimacy will probably need to improve as well; that could be part of an initial effort, but one step at a time.

Here's an example article you might (both) read:

https://www.businessinsider.com/lasting-relationships-rely-on-2-traits-2014-11

Thanks for the tips and suggestions. Will check out these articles.

However, what I am grappling with is, do I even want to try and save the marriage. I don’t find myself attracted to my wife anymore. I am annoyed at her putting her needs before mine on a continuing basis and that added to the fact that we don’t even talk much anymore, spend any time together and don’t seem to even have the energy to argue is leading me to question whether this marriage has in fact ran its course.

Let me give you another example. It was our wedding anniversary recently. After the kids went to bed, she went for an evening walk, picked up some takeaway for our anniversary dinner, which we both agreed on, and then after that, when I came downstairs after my shower, thinking we would watch a show together on TV, she had already gone in to the other living room and was watching her own show. We didn’t even spend our wedding anniversary together. What does that say?!

[Blind-Sided]

The real issue with Mark's advice is... it takes both parties to want it to work, to get it to work. (I only came to grips with that after my D was final)  So... you may work on yourself... but if she is still semi-controlling... then all you will be doing is extending the inevitable.   While I don't like to see things like this to end... the truth is... the real "Sit-down" talk needs to happen, and both parties need to want to change enough to make it work.  And honestly... it doesn't sound like things need to change all that much.  She needs to make you feel more as a partner, and that may be just a little more open communication on her part.

I wish you luck on a positive outcome.

[contel3]

16 hours ago, Londoner81 said:

I am just sick of being controlled, feeling like a second class citizen in the marriage and that I am stuck. I should also add that once, relatively early on in our marriage, we were having an argument, which well and truly blew up. Ironically it was at a wedding, my best friend’s, who is now divorced himself. During this argument she said, “I have given you everything, I have given you a house” (referencing a house she had bought years before we met and we ended up moving in to). It’s a statement I have never forgotten, but it made me feel like a second class citizen in the relationship.

My gut is telling me I deserve more, I deserve better but my head is telling me two different stories.

I've never been married, so I'm not sure why I'm even commenting on this….but I know what its like to feel this way in a relationship. 

You interpreted the bolded statement as her telling you you're a second class citizen in the relationship….I wouldn't quite agree. Sounds more like someone who thinks she can "earn" affection by contributing financially. And then gets frustrated when it doesnt work.

One of my exes was a bit like you describe your wife. Also, quite clueless about what was going on in my head.

It sounds stupid, but I started wording my feelings out for him. " I feel sad when you don't talk to me before you take important work decisions. It makes me feel small and like I'm second best. I want to feel like I can contribute too. Do you think you could do XY to support me?"

Everytime I did that I felt like an absolute idiot (actually to be completely fair it felt humiliating, I hated it lol), but he actually started being a lot more supportive and kind.

We still broke up, but with no hard feelings.

[Londoner81]

4 minutes ago, contel3 said:

I've never been married, so I'm not sure why I'm even commenting on this….but I know what its like to feel this way in a relationship. 

You interpreted the bolded statement as her telling you you're a second class citizen in the relationship….I wouldn't quite agree. Sounds more like someone who thinks she can "earn" affection by contributing financially. And then gets frustrated when it doesnt work.

One of my exes was a bit like you describe your wife. Also, quite clueless about what was going on in my head.

It sounds stupid, but I started wording my feelings out for him. " I feel sad when you don't talk to me before you take important work decisions. It makes me feel small and like I'm second best. I want to feel like I can contribute too. Do you think you could do XY to support me?"

Everytime I did that I felt like an absolute idiot (actually to be completely fair it felt humiliating, I hated it lol), but he actually started being a lot more supportive and kind.

We still broke up, but with no hard feelings.

Interesting point of view. It was not a bolded statement given the overall context of the situation. When I look back at it, it was her laying down a marker to me to in effect say she was more important than me in our relationship. And that has been an underlying theme for the majority of our relationship. 

Yes, I agree that we need to talk things through but knowing my wife like I do, she will get defensive, turn it around on me and it could turn in to one hell of an argument. 

That feeling, combined with the lack of any form of intimancy from either side, as well as us just not talking leaves me to wonder what the hell we are even doing together 

[Londoner81]

2 hours ago, Blind-Sided said:

The real issue with Mark's advice is... it takes both parties to want it to work, to get it to work. (I only came to grips with that after my D was final)  So... you may work on yourself... but if she is still semi-controlling... then all you will be doing is extending the inevitable.   While I don't like to see things like this to end... the truth is... the real "Sit-down" talk needs to happen, and both parties need to want to change enough to make it work.  And honestly... it doesn't sound like things need to change all that much.  She needs to make you feel more as a partner, and that may be just a little more open communication on her part.

I wish you luck on a positive outcome.

Thanks for your advice. I agree. I’m just not sure I want to work on this anymore. 

Let me put it this way, if we didn’t have kids, this wouldn’t even be a discussion. I would have told her I wanted out and it was time for us to part ways.

[contel3]

16 minutes ago, Londoner81 said:

Interesting point of view. It was not a bolded statement given the overall context of the situation. When I look back at it, it was her laying down a marker to me to in effect say she was more important than me in our relationship. And that has been an underlying theme for the majority of our relationship. 

Yes, I agree that we need to talk things through but knowing my wife like I do, she will get defensive, turn it around on me and it could turn in to one hell of an argument. 

That feeling, combined with the lack of any form of intimancy from either side, as well as us just not talking leaves me to wonder what the hell we are even doing together 

I know it wasn't a bolded statement. I just bolded it because like you said it might be an underlying theme. Whenever there are strong resentments it's really hard to stay objective….If you try to see her behavior as "insecure" instead of "she thinks she's more important than me" maybe you will have a better chance at staying calm and resolving things productively (it takes two to argue after all). 

It seems like you want out, but its still in your best interest to figure out a way to resolve conflicts in ways that benefit you both. 

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, Londoner81 said:

Let me give you another example. It was our wedding anniversary recently...

All fair points, and my suggestion was for "if". I'd say her actions show she either forgot about it (unlikely) or doesn't give a f*ck. However:

Consider that women often communicate indirectly. Perhaps she wanted to see if you "cared" and would make a fuss? We can't read our partner's minds. Maybe she had hoped you'd think of something to celebrate it (despite COVID) and was expecting that from you and was disappointed when it didn't materialize?  Possibly I'm giving her too much credit here.

At any rate, yes, at some point you need to communicate your disappointment and frustration if you haven't already and come to a (preferably joint) decision about what to do going forward.

[Londoner81]

16 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

All fair points, and my suggestion was for "if". I'd say her actions show she either forgot about it (unlikely) or doesn't give a f*ck. However:

Consider that women often communicate indirectly. Perhaps she wanted to see if you "cared" and would make a fuss? We can't read our partner's minds. Maybe she had hoped you'd think of something to celebrate it (despite COVID) and was expecting that from you and was disappointed when it didn't materialize?  Possibly I'm giving her too much credit here.

At any rate, yes, at some point you need to communicate your disappointment and frustration if you haven't already and come to a (preferably joint) decision about what to do going forward.

Hi Mark. I made her an anniversary card. I felt that was certainly showing that I cared. On the flip side, I came away empty handed.

[Londoner81]

1 hour ago, contel3 said:

I know it wasn't a bolded statement. I just bolded it because like you said it might be an underlying theme. Whenever there are strong resentments it's really hard to stay objective….If you try to see her behavior as "insecure" instead of "she thinks she's more important than me" maybe you will have a better chance at staying calm and resolving things productively (it takes two to argue after all). 

It seems like you want out, but its still in your best interest to figure out a way to resolve conflicts in ways that benefit you both. 

Fair points

[contel3]

1 hour ago, Londoner81 said:

Hi Mark. I made her an anniversary card. I felt that was certainly showing that I cared. On the flip side, I came away empty handed.

Did you ever discuss the fact that you feel she doesn't care? How did she react?

[Lotsgoingon]

Yes, I agree that we need to talk things through but knowing my wife like I do, she will get defensive, turn it around on me and it could turn in to one hell of an argument.

What jumps out at me from this statement and from your posts here is that you're afraid of a confrontation, afraid of standing up for yourself. That house comment she made--dude that was time to go to war.  I don't mean inflicting physical harm her. I mean, you raise holy hell and stand up for yourself. Doesn't matter if she screams, yells, cries, curses or threatens to jump into the river. You raise holy hell until she backs down with a strong, contrite, pleading apology. Absent that, the relationship is almost permanently damaged-- like a house that just had a huge hole punched into the roof where water can fall come in and rot the rest of the house.

You mention that things got bad about two years ago. No way! There were cracks in the relationship early on ... times when you felt roundly insulted or minimized ... and you said nothing. Two years ago might have been when the weight of her insults finally crushed your hopes about being happy in the relationship. But the problem of you not standing up for yourself—and her being defensive and dismissive--almost certainly was probably there from the git-go. 

Your issue is "boundaries"--a polite way of saying you don't know how to stand up for yourself, how to say no to someone, how to react the first time someone does something or says something mean to you. If you don't stand up for yourself in little ways all along, you end up at this point that you're at right now where standing up for yourself would require nuclear war. You want to work on boundaries, because frankly, if you leave this relationship, you’ll repeat the pattern again with the next person you date. You have to set boundaries in any relationship--doesn't matter how sweet and kind the partner is. (And the other person needs to set boundaries with us as well.)

True story: I grew up in a highly political family and we were great at standing up to authorities, speaking loudly when there was some injustice at issue.   A few years ago,  I actually complained to the executive at my workplace and to the top deputy about a practice that I thought was insulting--and they actually changed the policy. But I was terrible at standing up for myself in the little day-to-day consistent way required for intimate relationships. My siblings were also bad. 

Good intimate relationships require two people to let the other know when they are not feeling valued—and two people committed to repairing things when the other doesn’t feel valued.

[Blind-Sided]

4 hours ago, Londoner81 said:

1) I agree. I’m just not sure I want to work on this anymore. 

2) Let me put it this way, if we didn’t have kids, this wouldn’t even be a discussion. I would have told her I wanted out and it was time for us to part ways.

1) I understand.  You are mentally done.  The sad part is... and this is the same thing I told my exW... you waited too long.  If you would have had the talk 2 years ago... things could be different now.  But you held it bottled up (for the most part) and you gave up.  Now its at a boiling point, and it's too late.  Oh... as an FYI... you just answered your own question about staying... so just be done.  The longer you take, the more hurt there will be to everyone.

2) Don't let the kids dictate this. The kids are smart, and even if you are extremely carful... the lack of affection will leak out, and the kids will have the feeling that things are wrong.  Don't let this linger, while thinking it will be good for them to live in a house that has "Both Mom and Dad"  Because the reality is... they will learn how to hate, and bottle up emotions.  Make the cut clean, and the kids will adapt. Trust me on this one. Right now... I'm sitting here, in a nice calm house, and my oldest is in her room playing games on-line... and my youngest has her cold feet on my leg, and laughing at videos.  They feel the love regardless if mom is here anymore.  Since you want out... figure out how to make that happen, including custody... and present it to your stbxW.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Blind-Sided

[Marc878]

4 hours ago, Londoner81 said:

Hi Mark. I made her an anniversary card. I felt that was certainly showing that I cared. On the flip side, I came away empty handed.

Bud, women for the most part don’t just forget an anniversary.