Was it a Breakup or Not?

[KBarletta]

So I keep thinking about this and what I want to say if we talk again. And the truth is, besides the simple message I posted, I think we need to develop better communication strategies when we are upset. When I said "I can't live like this" I wasn't just saying it. When someone lets their own mind determine what my motives are, and doesn't believe me when I communicate the opposite, that makes communication really impossible. I can't be in a relationship when my partner questions my motives and then accuses me of being untruthful when I say otherwise. It just won't work. So that's a serious concern. I can't sit here and pretend that I don't have a serious concern about that. I also think I can do better at expressing myself, especially now and knowing that she has a tendency to misinterpret or just jump to conclusions.

It's hard - I know I don't want this relationship to end. But this has raised a serious concern of mine. How do you communicate with someone who is not thinking rationally or believing what you say? There's almost no point to saying anything if the person's response is "I don't believe you." Where do you go from there?

[preraph]

I see you have a Lou Reed quote, so here's my favorite one:  "Just goes to show how wrong you can be."   (referring to her)

[KBarletta]

15 minutes ago, preraph said:

I see you have a Lou Reed quote, so here's my favorite one:  "Just goes to show how wrong you can be."   (referring to her)

One of my favorites. Also, I realize the irony in having that quote in my profile and being upset that someone says they don't believe me. 

 

[preraph]

Look, you are entitled to take as much time as you need here.  It can't always ALL be about her and her anxiety.  There will always come a time when she will be struggling, because she has problems.  You can't fix that by being the one to always tell her what you hope she wants to hear (which if she won't believe it anyway, you may as well tell her what you really feel and your frustrations.)  I do think you two should do marital type counseling and it might help her.  But I'd bring that up after the quarantine but before any cohabitating is agreed upon.  

[KBarletta]

3 hours ago, preraph said:

Look, you are entitled to take as much time as you need here.  It can't always ALL be about her and her anxiety.  There will always come a time when she will be struggling, because she has problems.  You can't fix that by being the one to always tell her what you hope she wants to hear (which if she won't believe it anyway, you may as well tell her what you really feel and your frustrations.)  I do think you two should do marital type counseling and it might help her.  But I'd bring that up after the quarantine but before any cohabitating is agreed upon.  

Thanks. I honestly think that the stress of quarantining, and doing so separately, brought most of this on. In addition to all of that, I had to have my 14 year old dog put down in February, right before all of this happened. He would have been the only companion I had in my house, if he were here, and I really miss him still. And a few weeks later, my mother had cancer surgery and was alone in the hospital because visitors weren't allowed. All of that caused me great anxiety, and the pressure that she put on my about not being with her really made my stress and anxiety boil over. I didn't complain about it much, because i didn't want to make a bad situation worse, but I am really feeling alone here, especially now. She was the only thing I had in my life that was constant, I felt. And now she is gone.

All that being said, I don't want to act hastily and reach out before I've given it enough thought and time. I still feel upset. It's hard to tell whether the upset feeling is from the quarantine, the state of the world, my recent family stress and other losses ... it's just a lot. And I am really uncertain as to how to proceed. Because even if we agree to talk again, it's not as if this gets resolved tomorrow. We're still apart, physically. Unless we decided to move in together. It's a lot to consider.  

[preraph]

I'm so sorry to hear about your dog.  You know, my 15-year-old dog was also put down in February.  I know how it is.  I still have one left, though, and I tell you, I just don't know how I'd be doing without any dog.  And so hard not to be able to see your mom.  

 

Well, see, what you just told me letting me know that is that you are trying not to burden her with your problems, and these are real significant problems you should be able to expect support from her for!  Jeez, one of my friends brought flowers when I let her know Myra was gone (she's my avatar up there).  So this makes me worry more that something is off here.  I mean, everyone needs support around those type of things.  And yet, she added to your stress rather than doing things to accommodate it like a better partner would have done.  I don't doubt that things may improve after this quarantine, but I am also a big believe that it takes going through bad times together to see what someone is made of, and she's flunking that test and was even prior to lockdown.  It makes me wonder just how selfish and self-absorbed she is.  She acts like her problems should take priority over yours!  That is a classic sign of narcissism.  You are bending over backward not to burden her, while she's being irrational, and she seems to not care about your needs here.  Just making a big display to get attention for her own.  Something isn't right.  I do hope it improves, but really, is this the person you can grow old with if she doesn't do some work on herself?  

 

Meanwhile, once you're up to it emotionally, get another couple of dogs!  Go the the animal shelter and you won't be bored or lonely no matter what lies ahead.  And do not pull her into that decision either.  Do this for yourself.  

[BC1980]

Her reaction is extreme. That would be a concern of mine going forward. Instead of trying to talk to you about what you said, she just decided to throw 2 years down the drain and stop talking to you. That's a really extreme reaction. 
 

I would wait about a week to contact her. At some point, you will have to communicate again- if for no other reason than you probably have stuff at her house and vice versa. If you are the one that does the contacting, I would go with something general like, "do you want to talk about what happened?" I wouldn't send a long, emotional heartfelt message. Don't put your heart out there if you don't know how she'll respond. It also might be overwhelming to her. 

[KBarletta]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

I'm so sorry to hear about your dog.  You know, my 15-year-old dog was also put down in February.  I know how it is.  I still have one left, though, and I tell you, I just don't know how I'd be doing without any dog.  And so hard not to be able to see your mom.  

 

Well, see, what you just told me letting me know that is that you are trying not to burden her with your problems, and these are real significant problems you should be able to expect support from her for!  Jeez, one of my friends brought flowers when I let her know Myra was gone (she's my avatar up there).  So this makes me worry more that something is off here.  I mean, everyone needs support around those type of things.  And yet, she added to your stress rather than doing things to accommodate it like a better partner would have done.  I don't doubt that things may improve after this quarantine, but I am also a big believe that it takes going through bad times together to see what someone is made of, and she's flunking that test and was even prior to lockdown.  It makes me wonder just how selfish and self-absorbed she is.  She acts like her problems should take priority over yours!  That is a classic sign of narcissism.  You are bending over backward not to burden her, while she's being irrational, and she seems to not care about your needs here.  Just making a big display to get attention for her own.  Something isn't right.  I do hope it improves, but really, is this the person you can grow old with if she doesn't do some work on herself?  

 

Meanwhile, once you're up to it emotionally, get another couple of dogs!  Go the the animal shelter and you won't be bored or lonely no matter what lies ahead.  And do not pull her into that decision either.  Do this for yourself.  

Thanks for the condolences. It really is a tremendous loss. Especially when you live alone, as I do. Your dogs are all you have sometimes. 

I will say, though, that through all of that, and my mom's hospitalization, my GF was there for me. She has, by and large, been a good partner. She just has blind spots and tendencies to spiral into anxiety and stubornness when challenged. And this has been a challenge. She is a bit self-centered, but not in an extreme way. She does sometimes want me to put her problems above my own, and I am fine with that, except when my problems involve literal life and death issues and hers are that she misses me. I do think there are issues here, but the truth is, before the lockdown, things were great 99 percent of the time.

Also, PS, I've signed up for a local dog fostering group but so far none have popped up. I will definitely be getting another one soon! 😉

Edited April 24, 2020 by KBarletta

[Lotsgoingon]

"I can't live like this." My man, you went nuclear with them words. Do you realize that?

 I mean a skirmish would be, "Hey, I'm feeling like you don't trust me." or "I'm feeling like you discount and disregard what I say when I'm trying hard." How the heck did you go nuclear so fast? I'm asking this as a question and not posing this as an accusation. 

There had to have been some prolonged, repeated, nasty warfare between you and her, some wounds still healing, some lingering hurt, for you to go nuclear so quickly. I'm guessing that you're more unhappy with her than you're acknowledging to yourself. You nearly say as much ... and yet you still want to be with her. You guys have communication so bad that you don't even know if you officially broke up. And yet you want to spend your life with her. What gives?

It's possible you are comfortable with a high-conflict relationship. If so, just acknowledge that's what you're getting into here. 

So this is on you ... you're choosing to be with a difficult woman who pushes your buttons and who doesn't seem aware of how difficult she is. Before you go any further, you and she need to work through some problems in the relationship, problems that you have apparently ignored and allowed to fester.  You don't seem nuclear to me ... the fact that you went nuclear (apologies for my analogy) suggest that there was a lot of back and forth attacks and so your nuclear arsenal was moved to high alert and ready to fire.

You seem to be willing to put up with a lot of immaturity on her part. But still you're sure this is the woman you want to spend your life with? I don't know brother. Such conflicts like this usually indicate this is NOT the right person to spend our life with. 

 

 

 

 

[KBarletta]

22 minutes ago, BC1980 said:

Her reaction is extreme. That would be a concern of mine going forward. Instead of trying to talk to you about what you said, she just decided to throw 2 years down the drain and stop talking to you. That's a really extreme reaction. 
 

I would wait about a week to contact her. At some point, you will have to communicate again- if for no other reason than you probably have stuff at her house and vice versa. If you are the one that does the contacting, I would go with something general like, "do you want to talk about what happened?" I wouldn't send a long, emotional heartfelt message. Don't put your heart out there if you don't know how she'll respond. It also might be overwhelming to her. 

Thanks. I agree her reaction was extreme. But maybe mine was too. I do understand it would be hard to hear your partner say the things I said. "I can't live like this" is a pretty extreme reaction, too, no? I guess I'm saying we both have been pushed to our limits. Also - again, in her mind, I'm the one who's done the breaking up. (I know I told her otherwise two or three times, but I'm saying that's how her mind works.) Because I said I can't live like this, she took that as me breaking up. So she's probably feeling very self righteous right now, I would guess.

I'm not sure I can last a whole week. Even if the end result is that it's over, I'd rather get it over sooner rather than later. I only have clothes at her place - nothing I care if I lose. She has some clothes and makeup, etc., here. That's it. I don't think we would need to see each other if we didn't want to. I hate to think in those terms, but maybe that's where this is headed.

That's why I titled this thread "Was it a breakup?" because I don't think of it as one, she clearly does.

[preraph]

I think you should at some point let her know that she places her little grievances like missing you over your life and death issues and spell that out for her -- or in counseling.  I mean, she needs to get some perspective . I'm glad you mainly get along, but really, she's very self-absorbed.  

 

And be sure and let us know what your foster dog is like.  I am what is known as a "failed foster parent" because I don't think anyone is good enough for the fosters except me.  And remember, dogs being pack animals socially, they are nearly always less anxious and more self-reliant when they have another dog buddy to hang with.  Makes them feel secure and it's less pressure on the human.

Edited April 24, 2020 by preraph

[KBarletta]

2 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

"I can't live like this." My man, you went nuclear with them words. Do you realize that?

 I mean a skirmish would be, "Hey, I'm feeling like you don't trust me." or "I'm feeling like you discount and disregard what I say when I'm trying hard." How the heck did you go nuclear so fast? I'm asking this as a question and not posing this as an accusation. 

There had to have been some prolonged, repeated, nasty warfare between you and her, some wounds still healing, some lingering hurt, for you to go nuclear so quickly. I'm guessing that you're more unhappy with her than you're acknowledging to yourself. You nearly say as much ... and yet you still want to be with her. You guys have communication so bad that you don't even know if you officially broke up. And yet you want to spend your life with her. What gives?

It's possible you are comfortable with a high-conflict relationship. If so, just acknowledge that's what you're getting into here. 

So this is on you ... you're choosing to be with a difficult woman who pushes your buttons and who doesn't seem aware of how difficult she is. Before you go any further, you and she need to work through some problems in the relationship, problems that you have apparently ignored and allowed to fester.  You don't seem nuclear to me ... the fact that you went nuclear (apologies for my analogy) suggest that there was a lot of back and forth attacks and so your nuclear arsenal was moved to high alert and ready to fire.

You seem to be willing to put up with a lot of immaturity on her part. But still you're sure this is the woman you want to spend your life with? I don't know brother. Such conflicts like this usually indicate this is NOT the right person to spend our life with. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I realize it was an extreme thing to say. in fact I was typing the post below acknowledging that when you posted this.

She does have a history of letting her anxiety overflow and let her mind spiral to cause misunderstandings and overreactions. This has happened repeatedly. Never about something I thought of as so mundane as calling her up to make sure she was going to participate in a conference call. That, and the over-stressed, tense environment of this lockdown, coupled with the fact that she had told me the night before that she didn't believe me (which I told her upset me), led to my "nuclear" reaction. 

I think that I can forgive her for all of that, because like I said, nobody is themselves right now. I am not myself and she is not herself. For the two years leading up to this, this relationship was largely a breeze. Very little conflict. And when it happened, it was usually due to her mind spirals (which she has acknowledged and works on with a therapist). But really, we got along famously until recently. 

[KBarletta]

4 minutes ago, preraph said:

I think you should at some point let her know that she places her little grievances like missing you over your life and death issues and spell that out for her -- or in counseling.  I mean, she needs to get some perspective . I'm glad you mainly get along, but really, she's very self-absorbed.  

 

And be sure and let us know what your foster dog is like.  I am what is known as a "failed foster parent" because I don't think anyone is good enough for the fosters except me.  And remember, dogs being pack animals socially, they are nearly always less anxious and more self-reliant when they have another dog buddy to hang with.  Makes them feel secure and it's less pressure on the human.

The truth is, if we didn't have children and were able to just be together during all of this, I can guarantee that none of this would be happening. She is very attached to me and hates being apart. I (like I said earlier) need my space and alone time. But I also live in a three-story house so if we were together, I could get my alone time and we could still be together enough to satisfy her. I just know that the longer I wait to contact her at this point, the more she will assume that I agree we're broken up and in her mind will begin to move on. 

 

I had two dogs for most of my adult life until recently. I like having two. I actually was contemplating getting a second one when the old one got sick and I just didn't have it in me. But some day!

[KBarletta]

22 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

"I can't live like this." My man, you went nuclear with them words. Do you realize that?

 I mean a skirmish would be, "Hey, I'm feeling like you don't trust me." or "I'm feeling like you discount and disregard what I say when I'm trying hard." How the heck did you go nuclear so fast? I'm asking this as a question and not posing this as an accusation. 

There had to have been some prolonged, repeated, nasty warfare between you and her, some wounds still healing, some lingering hurt, for you to go nuclear so quickly. I'm guessing that you're more unhappy with her than you're acknowledging to yourself. You nearly say as much ... and yet you still want to be with her. You guys have communication so bad that you don't even know if you officially broke up. And yet you want to spend your life with her. What gives?

It's possible you are comfortable with a high-conflict relationship. If so, just acknowledge that's what you're getting into here. 

So this is on you ... you're choosing to be with a difficult woman who pushes your buttons and who doesn't seem aware of how difficult she is. Before you go any further, you and she need to work through some problems in the relationship, problems that you have apparently ignored and allowed to fester.  You don't seem nuclear to me ... the fact that you went nuclear (apologies for my analogy) suggest that there was a lot of back and forth attacks and so your nuclear arsenal was moved to high alert and ready to fire.

You seem to be willing to put up with a lot of immaturity on her part. But still you're sure this is the woman you want to spend your life with? I don't know brother. Such conflicts like this usually indicate this is NOT the right person to spend our life with. 

 

 

 

 

Also, I would say that I went "nuclear" after hearing her repeatedly say "I don't believe you" to me, which as I described above, I take as a dagger to the heart. I have been honest with her to a fault since we started dating. It was a promise I made to myself when I started dating again that I wasn't going to play games and was just going to be honest and let the chips fall where they could. 
So I guess I'd say my reaction, while extreme, was in response to something that I found deeply hurtful, and something that made it nearly impossible to continue communicating. How do you keep talking to someone when they don't believe what you're saying (for no real reason, I might add).

 

[preraph]

Yeah, it's not good to drop a new dog in on an old one sometimes.  Wears them out.  

 

You can contact her without admitting any fault, since you really didn't do anything except that her irrational whining and all that was too much.  You have a right to stand up for yourself.  You can write and ask her if she's calmed down any and tell her you miss her.  I don't think your reaction was extreme at all compared to her actions.  I mean, it's hard to not lose patience when someone is being irrational and nothing you say, she believes!  She's made a fight out of thin air.  

Edited April 24, 2020 by preraph

[Lotsgoingon]

If you really think her behavior is on account of this time of quarantine (and I'm in the middle on that one) then send her a heart-felt message.

Here is the draft note you composed:

This is the best relationship I've ever had. I think that’s why I get so upset when we don’t communicate effectively. Because I know we can do so much better. And I want to try. Because I know this - I want to spend my life with you. That hasn’t changed. 

This is too abstract to me. Do you love this woman? If you don't, I wonder why you're talking about wanting to spend your life with her ... and if you don't, I can guarantee that one's reason she's mad at you ... even though she might not be stating this ... But if you do love her, say it! ... loudly ... And mention some other good things ... true qualities you like about her. No defending yourself. 

You don't want to problem-solve with this note. This is a repair note. Once you both agree to repair ... and you have some trust reestablished and lower heartbeats and lower cortisol, then you can problem-solve about communication. Right now, you don't have enough trust to discuss your respective weaknesses in communication. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Lotsgoingon

[KBarletta]

29 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

If you really think her behavior is on account of this time of quarantine (and I'm in the middle on that one) then send her a heart-felt message.

Here is the draft note you composed:

This is the best relationship I've ever had. I think that’s why I get so upset when we don’t communicate effectively. Because I know we can do so much better. And I want to try. Because I know this - I want to spend my life with you. That hasn’t changed. 

This is too abstract to me. Do you love this woman? If you don't, I wonder why you're talking about wanting to spend your life with her ... and if you don't, I can guarantee that one's reason she's mad at you ... even though she might not be stating this ... But if you do love her, say it! ... loudly ... And mention some other good things ... true qualities you like about her. No defending yourself. 

You don't want to problem-solve with this note. This is a repair note. Once you both agree to repair ... and you have some trust reestablished and lower heartbeats and lower cortisol, then you can problem-solve about communication. Right now, you don't have enough trust to discuss your respective weaknesses in communication. 

I'm a little confused - the note that I posted ended with the words "I love you" and somehow they didn't end up in the version you posted. So, yes. I love her. I have loved her, and told her so, every day for the past year and a half. There's no doubt there. 
I'm really contemplating just sending her a version of that note tonight before I go to sleep. I am not sure how she will respond, but it will reveal a lot how she does. 

[KBarletta]

34 minutes ago, preraph said:

Yeah, it's not good to drop a new dog in on an old one sometimes.  Wears them out.  

 

You can contact her without admitting any fault, since you really didn't do anything except that her irrational whining and all that was too much.  You have a right to stand up for yourself.  You can write and ask her if she's calmed down any and tell her you miss her.  I don't think your reaction was extreme at all compared to her actions.  I mean, it's hard to not lose patience when someone is being irrational and nothing you say, she believes!  She's made a fight out of thin air.  

I don't plan to admit to any fault, though I might say that we need to improve our communication and I am a part of that, of course. (Knowing her, though, if I ask her if she has calmed down, she'll get upset. Not a question she likes to be asked, LOL.) 

[Lotsgoingon]

Definitely do not ask if she's calmed down.  That can easily feel like an insult ... oh, you think I'm angry because I'm out of control, not because I have real feelings.

If you want to check if someone has "calmed down" much better to ask, "Can you talk right now?" Or say "I'd like to talk, no argument. Can you talk now?"

[KBarletta]

14 hours ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Definitely do not ask if she's calmed down.  That can easily feel like an insult ... oh, you think I'm angry because I'm out of control, not because I have real feelings.

If you want to check if someone has "calmed down" much better to ask, "Can you talk right now?" Or say "I'd like to talk, no argument. Can you talk now?"

Yeah. I am actually a little concerned that she hasn't calmed down, which is why I have't reached out yet, and why I think just sending a short from the heart note is the better route. Because I don't want this to turn into an argument. But I do want her to know that I don't consider the relationship over. I feel like the best way to accomplish that is to just send a short note telling her I love her and leaving it at that, putting the ball in her court to respond. I feel like how she responds to that will determine the next course of action. 

[Tamfana]

16 hours ago, KBarletta said:

I don't plan to admit to any fault, though I might say that we need to improve our communication and I am a part of that, of course. (Knowing her, though, if I ask her if she has calmed down, she'll get upset. Not a question she likes to be asked, LOL.) 

Then don't bother. If you're positioning for battle you're not ready yourself.  So long as you're fixed on a confrontational fault-based interaction, love is guiding, and understanding isn't the motive.  The underlying problem won't be unearthed and addressed with that outlook.  

Yes, you need to improve your communication.  Saying that you can't live like this is quite final and rejecting.  When you get upset do you typically go to the exasperated nuclear comment?  Lots of people who have had relationships with verbally abusive people have zero tolerance for verbal lashes and will withdraw.  

Edited April 25, 2020 by Tamfana

[preraph]

She's the one who goes nuclear with everything.  The one time he says he's exasperated, and she overreacts.  

[KBarletta]

51 minutes ago, Tamfana said:

Then don't bother. If you're positioning for battle you're not ready yourself.  So long as you're fixed on a confrontational fault-based interaction, love is guiding, and understanding isn't the motive.  The underlying problem won't be unearthed and addressed with that outlook.  

Yes, you need to improve your communication.  Saying that you can't live like this is quite final and rejecting.  When you get upset do you typically go to the exasperated nuclear comment?  Lots of people who have had relationships with verbally abusive people have zero tolerance for verbal lashes and will withdraw.  

I don't disagree that saying that sounds final, and it's definitely rejecting. But it came in response to comments that I found equally final and rejecting. Honestly, how do you respond when someone rejects what you say with "I don't believe you"? That's pretty final, too, isn't it? How do you come back from that? That was what I was responding to when I said I can't live like this. And I can't. It's literally impossible to communicate with someone who says that. What do you say next? Really, what is the point of saying anything more if that's the response you get?

It's hard not to be exasperated when you communicate honestly and your partner doesn't believe what you say. It's nearly impossible to carry on a normal relationship under those conditions. That's what I meant by "I can't live like this" - not that I wanted to end the relationship, but that I couldn't exist under those terms of communication. It's impossible. 

You are correct that WE need to improve our communication. And that is part of what I planned to say. I have never gone the exasperated "nuclear" route as you say, before. This is a first. But it's also both of us under unprecedented stress and tension. 

[KBarletta]

38 minutes ago, preraph said:

She's the one who goes nuclear with everything.  The one time he says he's exasperated, and she overreacts.  

She tends to push things to the extreme. 

The call to check on her participation is a good example of her behavior, actually. I call to check in and make sure she's still a go, she decides that means that she's unwanted. It's a very good example of her mind spiraling to a fairly ridiculous conclusion. And then, when I try to explain (admittedly under tension) she says she doesn't believe what I say. So what happens is there is an honest misunderstanding. Her mind spirals to an incorrect and largely irrational conclusion. I try to correct the issue and explain. She refuses to listen. And that happened twice in one day, which led to me responding with what, I admit, was an overreaction. But It's really a pretty typical picture of how our communication has gone lately.

Edited April 25, 2020 by KBarletta

[KBarletta]

1 hour ago, Tamfana said:

Then don't bother. If you're positioning for battle you're not ready yourself.  So long as you're fixed on a confrontational fault-based interaction, love is guiding, and understanding isn't the motive.  The underlying problem won't be unearthed and addressed with that outlook.  

Yes, you need to improve your communication.  Saying that you can't live like this is quite final and rejecting.  When you get upset do you typically go to the exasperated nuclear comment?  Lots of people who have had relationships with verbally abusive people have zero tolerance for verbal lashes and will withdraw.  

I guess my question is: Does me saying "We need to improve our communication when we're upset" count as confrontational? That is a true statement, and it puts the onus on both of us, not her, and not me. Does that qualify as admitting I was wrong? I think it does, while not taking FULL responsibility. I am willing to admit I played a role in what happened. But what I am not willing to do is lay down and say that I am the sole reason why it happened. It falls to both of us to fix this, in my opinion. Would you agree?

Edited April 25, 2020 by KBarletta