Was it a Breakup or Not?

[preraph]

I think it's very generous of you to accept some responsibility, but it's mainly her so no way you should do more than that.  She needs to get off her high crazy horse.  

[KBarletta]

7 minutes ago, preraph said:

I think it's very generous of you to accept some responsibility, but it's mainly her so no way you should do more than that.  She needs to get off her high crazy horse.  

Well, I am willing to acknowledge the following:

- I have (as she has) been under extreme grief, anxiety, loneliness, fear, etc., lately, as a result of the lockdown, as well as the additional factors I explained. Right now, I am still on the edge, still likely prone to flying off the handle if pushed. So I think it's best to avoid arguing over the small things right now (like online chat availability) and focus on the big things.

- I have (as she has) not dealt with it well. I could and should have communicated better, and promise to work on doing so in the future, when this is all over. 

[KBarletta]

I think I will reach out with a short message today along the lines if what I'd suggested before. 

My worries in doing that are these:

- She could continue believing that we are broken up and either reject or ignore my outreach (bad)

- She could continue to be confrontational and accept no responsibility and accuse me of waiting too long to reach out to her (bad) 

- She could accept my overture and respond lovingly with a willingness to work on communicating better. (good)

The first two are real possibilities. So is the third. I just don't know where her head is and what to expect. She has maintained our connections on social media, etc., so she hasn't gone no contact or anything extreme like that. I take that as a good sign, I guess. I will admit to a little bit of fear about me reaching out and her confirming that she actually does WANT to break up, which would crush me. I would prefer her to still be angry to her being resigned to a breakup. 

The first two possibilities worry me, enough that I have resisted saying anything yet. Part of me feels the more time that passes the less likely she'll still be angry. But it also might give her time to get used to the idea that we're broken up and just be like, "sorry. we're done." I'm just not sure.

[preraph]

I don't like that she made your life more difficult during the loss of your old dog and your mom's illness.  That is just very selfish, and that is my main concern with her.  I'm glad you get along in person, but man, she doesn't have much empathy.  

[KBarletta]

Just now, preraph said:

I don't like that she made your life more difficult during the loss of your old dog and your mom's illness.  That is just very selfish, and that is my main concern with her.  I'm glad you get along in person, but man, she doesn't have much empathy.  

Well, I appreciate that. But like I said, she was there for me during those times. Those were two months and one month ago. Our tension really has arisen since then, much more recently. I admit that I still am carrying grief and anxiety over those things, though I don't express it much. I guess that's largely because I don't want to make this lockdown worse by being emotionally needy on TOP of the already existing grief and anxiety and loneliness we're both enduring. Mine has these added elements, I admit. She probably doesn't see them because I keep them mostly under wraps but they're still there inside me. 

[preraph]

Yes, you'll have to be prepared.  But as long as she's talking, she's not done.  If she was done, she'd stop talking.  That doesn't mean you keep talking and telling her what she thinks she needs to hear though or that you neglect to air your concerns when the time comes.  It's hard to have enough head space to deal with this kind of petty selfish stuff when your mom is so ill and you have more serious things on your mind.   

[preraph]

7 minutes ago, KBarletta said:

Well, I appreciate that. But like I said, she was there for me during those times. Those were two months and one month ago. Our tension really has arisen since then, much more recently. I admit that I still am carrying grief and anxiety over those things, though I don't express it much. I guess that's largely because I don't want to make this lockdown worse by being emotionally needy on TOP of the already existing grief and anxiety and loneliness we're both enduring. Mine has these added elements, I admit. She probably doesn't see them because I keep them mostly under wraps but they're still there inside me. 

Okay.  As long as she was comforting you and trying to help.  She just didn't stick with that long enough.  I guess because you went about business as usual.  

[KBarletta]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

Yes, you'll have to be prepared.  But as long as she's talking, she's not done.  If she was done, she'd stop talking.  That doesn't mean you keep talking and telling her what she thinks she needs to hear though or that you neglect to air your concerns when the time comes.  It's hard to have enough head space to deal with this kind of petty selfish stuff when your mom is so ill and you have more serious things on your mind.   

Yeah, it does make it hard. It actually reminds me of the year my wife and I separated. Through the spring, summer and fall of that year (six years ago) I endured the loss of family members for various reasons - aunts, uncles, cousins, people who had been very close to me throughout my life. There was about one per month for a period of about six months, culminating in my birthday (in the fall) when I lost my work mentor and my godmother in back to back weeks. I was just an emotional shell for the whole year, but really that fall I completely was gone. I couldn't really function to do much of anything except show up. I wasn't communicating. I was barely leaving the house. It was awful. It was only about a month after that that my wife left. 

It didn't really hit me until a while later that I had almost completely disappeared emotionally. Looking back, I now know why and how it all happened. And looking at this situation, it feels similar. This time, I am much more self aware and emotionally mature to look at it and say, yeah, I am really emotionally on edge right now. I can't be relied upon to communicate normally at this moment in time. I would really like to just hit pause on the small picture things and just focus on the big picture: The people I love the most. Comforting them (her included) and just getting to the other side of this. For now. And then pick up with other things when this is over.

That's actually a really comforting thought to me right now. But I am not sure if it even makes sense. Sometimes you just have to hit pause. (The whole world's doing it right now, I guess.)

[KBarletta]

Just now, preraph said:

Okay.  As long as she was comforting you and trying to help.  She just didn't stick with that long enough.  I guess because you went about business as usual.  

Yeah. I did. In fact, that's part of the reason I think she thought I was lying when I said I was miserable. I guess I didn't see much point to repeating that fact every time we talked. I am still missing my dog. I don't tell people that every time they ask how I'm doing. I'll be missing him forever. Sometimes (like now) it will be a big deal. Other times, it will fade into the background. But it's always there. I just try to push it to the side so I can still work, carry on a relationship, live a somewhat normal life.

[preraph]

Well, yes, I guess there's plenty of time to be on pause and work through all those feelings you get too busy with life to deal with.  Sounds like a perfectly horrible year for you around your divorce.  I just can't imagine someone not cutting someone a lot of slack with all that happening every single month, though.  I guess you need to verbalize when you shut down and just say, Hey, I'm dealing with grief now and please understand if I'm not quite normal or present as usual.  

 

I was once hit with a double whammy.  My favorite old dog died (put down) who was like my angel.  We saved each other.  So it was a huge loss for me.  Then two days later, a guy who was like a brother to me died.  I didn't even have time to grieve my Edie and was hit with going out of state and speaking at that funeral and dealing with all that.  I also lost quite a few friends to AIDs in the 90s and early 2000s.  So I do get it.  

[preraph]

3 minutes ago, KBarletta said:

Yeah. I did. In fact, that's part of the reason I think she thought I was lying when I said I was miserable. I guess I didn't see much point to repeating that fact every time we talked. I am still missing my dog. I don't tell people that every time they ask how I'm doing. I'll be missing him forever. Sometimes (like now) it will be a big deal. Other times, it will fade into the background. But it's always there. I just try to push it to the side so I can still work, carry on a relationship, live a somewhat normal life.

That's how it will be.  Mine came to my dream state the day after the day after she died, showing herself to me in the backyard, happy and smiling like dogs do, so that helped me a lot.  Silly, I guess, but if they don't visit me, I worry.  Then of course different things trigger missing her and her not being here.  She was afraid of noises on TV, like buzzers and beeping, and I was watching LivePD yesterday and a sound came on and I just imagined her jumping up on the bed and snuggling into me so I'd put my arms around her and comfort her (and turn the tv down).  And it made me awful sad for a minute.  I could just feel her.  

[KBarletta]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

That's how it will be.  Mine came to my dream state the day after the day after she died, showing herself to me in the backyard, happy and smiling like dogs do, so that helped me a lot.  Silly, I guess, but if they don't visit me, I worry.  Then of course different things trigger missing her and her not being here.  She was afraid of noises on TV, like buzzers and beeping, and I was watching LivePD yesterday and a sound came on and I just imagined her jumping up on the bed and snuggling into me so I'd put my arms around her and comfort her (and turn the tv down).  And it made me awful sad for a minute.  I could just feel her.  

Yeah. I still dream about him all the time. It's hard sometimes, comforting other times. 

The thing is, that loss and my mother's hospitalization happened within a few weeks of the lockdown kicking in. And suddenly I was completely alone and worried all the time. She had three kids (both a blessing and a curse I suppose) and a dog at her home. I had nothing and nobody. At least that's how it felt. All I had was her, each day, to talk to. It was the one thing I looked forward to at the end of each day was connecting with her. She grew increasingly frustrated that we weren't together physically. I was frustrated too, but it was just one of the many intense feelings I was having. For her, I think it was everything. And because I didn't express my feeling of frustration about our separateness on the same level of intensity, she began to doubt it. But, again, it was one of several strains of grief and anxiety I have at once. (In addition to the fact that I haven't seen my college-age daughter for nearly two months because she lives with her mother, also on lockdown.)

[KBarletta]

9 minutes ago, preraph said:

Well, yes, I guess there's plenty of time to be on pause and work through all those feelings you get too busy with life to deal with.  Sounds like a perfectly horrible year for you around your divorce.  I just can't imagine someone not cutting someone a lot of slack with all that happening every single month, though.  I guess you need to verbalize when you shut down and just say, Hey, I'm dealing with grief now and please understand if I'm not quite normal or present as usual.  

 

I was once hit with a double whammy.  My favorite old dog died (put down) who was like my angel.  We saved each other.  So it was a huge loss for me.  Then two days later, a guy who was like a brother to me died.  I didn't even have time to grieve my Edie and was hit with going out of state and speaking at that funeral and dealing with all that.  I also lost quite a few friends to AIDs in the 90s and early 2000s.  So I do get it.  

I am sorry for your losses. That's hard. It does make it hard to carry on a normal life. I've found it hard the past few days to even get out of bed and "go to work" even though my work is carried out from my dining room table.

I admit that I haven't been myself for the past several months. That's understood. I guess she hasn't either. I think it would be a shame to let the two of us, at our worst, decide that we're done with each other. This is the worst I've felt since the year of my separation/divorce. And I think this feels worse.

Honestly with past breakups, I can recall, even in the first few days, feeling some kind of freedom, thinking of the possibility of meeting other women in the future and feeling some shred of hope and excitement about that. 

In this case, though, I don't have that feeling. Because in past scenarios, I knew it was over. In my head it was over, even if my heart took some convincing. This I don't want to be over, and the thought of even touching another woman in the future actually nauseates me. It doesn't make me feel free or hopeful or excited at all. 

[KBarletta]

On top of everything else, today would have been my wedding anniversary if my wife and I were still together. That's been in the back of my mind. I don't really hold onto any anger or grief over it anymore, thankfully, but it's still there in the back of my mind. I remember what a good day that was, and it makes me feel somewhat sad to know that it didn't end the way we wanted it to. It's easy to look back now and know why, and also know we weren't meant to be together forever. But when you think about the happiness of that day, and where things ended up. It's just sad.

[preraph]

The fact that you obviously had bigger fish to fry shouldn't have escaped her, though.  I mean, she knows you have these losses and she piles on another one and is needing all this reassurance and me, me, me.  She should have been cutting you some slack instead of stirring things up is all.  

 

Let us know how it goes once you write her. 

[preraph]

Hope you're at least able to reach out and talk to your daughter.  

[KBarletta]

2 minutes ago, preraph said:

The fact that you obviously had bigger fish to fry shouldn't have escaped her, though.  I mean, she knows you have these losses and she piles on another one and is needing all this reassurance and me, me, me.  She should have been cutting you some slack instead of stirring things up is all.  

 

Let us know how it goes once you write her. 

Thanks. Still contemplating the timing of it all. Funny thing is, this coming week is going to be crazy busy for me, work wise. I have a ton of end of the month deadlines I have to hit by mid-week. So Monday-Wednesday are going to be insanely busy for me. Not looking forward to that, with all of this other stuff hanging over my head LOL.

 

[KBarletta]

3 minutes ago, preraph said:

Hope you're at least able to reach out and talk to your daughter.  

Yeah. We've been talking a couple times a week. I miss her, but it's OK. Thanks.

[KBarletta]

On 4/23/2020 at 5:52 PM, Calmandfocused said:

If the lockdown was lifted tomorrow what happens going forward?

 

This question is actually what's been on my mind lately. What I would like to happen going forward is for us both to commit to two things:

1. Finding a place in between the two of us and cohabitating when the children are all out of the house. Thinking about this possibility actually is the only thing that makes me excited for the future at this moment. 

2. With that goal in mind, working on communicating and understanding each other better and trying hard to not get angry/hurt/defensive with each other over small things. 

In my mind, these two goals go together. Without one, the other won't happen. And vice versa. So I would like to commit to those as our two main goals if we stay together. And also, with those goals in mind, try to come up with a plan to see each other and - maybe - touch each other again soon, while still being careful not to get anyone sick. That could be hard, but I feel if we're both extremely careful in our interactions with others outside of our immediate households (for me that's nobody), we could do it without much of a problem.    

I see that as two long term goals and one short-term goal that would go a long way toward making both of us feel better. That's what I would propose as a plan going forward.

 

[Lotsgoingon]

You're discussing the challenge you have with this woman as a "communication" problem. Yes, there are communication problems. Heck every conflict has some element of a "communication" problem. 

 When someone acts like a jerk, that is not a communication problem ... unless their communication like a jerk was completely out of line with who they are, and how they feel, and how they think. You with me? If you're not a real jerk, when your partner points out you're acting like a jerk, you'll retreat. 

Couples differ in moods, in levels of suspicion, in levels of trust ... in values ... in how they think about the other person ... how good or bad they are at anticipating the other person's reactions ... how good or bad they are at reassuring the other person. Reassurance is a good example for the problem with labeling relationship conflict a problem of "communication." 

When women have told me I wasn't reassuring them, they were not identifying a "communication" problem. I wasn't reassuring them because I didn't feel like reassuring them, I didn't feel deeply committed to the relationship and thus nurturing them.  (Not that I understood this at the time) Similarly,  when women didn't reassure me, that wasn't some gap in their vocabulary.  They simply weren't into me enough to reassure me. 

I worry that you are labeling some serious differences, serious conflicts as merely "communication"--as if a speech therapist substituting new words from the Thesaurus resolve your problems. You have had the good will, the desire, the love, the commitment first ... Then ... with that commitment clear from both sides, you can work on the wording ... It's not a matter of just "understanding" the other person. You have to WANT--fiercely so-- to understand the other person. And understanding isn't enough. You have to understand ... and ideally appreciate the other person's view. 

On the breakup, I don't think you need to worry about that. Look, couples will "break up" ... then talk a month later (if not sooner) ... start dating again ... And a year later, they have forgotten that they ever really broke up. Why? Because the breakup was merely a pause, a time to renegotiate and reset the relationship. Again, you're getting caught up with a label and missing the underlining the dynamic. The relationship isn't over until both of you officially withdraw. But if you're worried, then definitely connect with her. The fact that you are so worried about things being over ... again raises my worry that this ain't the woman for you.  

 

 

[healing light]

On 4/24/2020 at 5:48 AM, KBarletta said:

"I can't live like this" - I couldn't live with that spiraling and incorrect conclusions and then, me being mistrusted as a result.

You shouldn't have to live like this. I have not caught up with the rest of your thread yet, but it sounds like it will be an uphill battle if she doesn't choose to face her demons. Why should you be forced to mind read when she's hell bent on self-sabotaging and not taking people at their word? Okay, sorry if this is all outdated by now, I'll continue reading...

[KBarletta]

So ... an update. She called last night while I was asleep. Around 11 p.m. She did not leave a message. Then she texted to say she was on her way over. She never showed up. So I just woke up and sent her a version of the text I had written, starting out by asking if she was OK, since she never showed up when she texted that she was coming. I am not sure whether she was coming to confront me further, to try to make up, or if she was just tired of not talking. Maybe she was drunk and realized she shouldn't be driving. Whatever the reason, I sent the text. Now I guess we'll see what happens next. ... 

[KBarletta]

6 hours ago, healing light said:

You shouldn't have to live like this. I have not caught up with the rest of your thread yet, but it sounds like it will be an uphill battle if she doesn't choose to face her demons. Why should you be forced to mind read when she's hell bent on self-sabotaging and not taking people at their word? Okay, sorry if this is all outdated by now, I'll continue reading...

You're right. That's why I said what I said, though I realized almost immediately it was the wrong way to express the sentiment. It wasn't a productive way to communicate that thought, and was clearly one of the reasons why the conversation went south so quickly. 

[Lotsgoingon]

Man, you have some suspense going here ... the story takes a surprising turn ... she calls! ... and then ... doesn't show up ... BTW dude: as much as you've been fretting about things with this woman, how in the world did you miss the call?! ... I guess you weren't expecting to hear from her. 

[KBarletta]

1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Man, you have some suspense going here ... the story takes a surprising turn ... she calls! ... and then ... doesn't show up ... BTW dude: as much as you've been fretting about things with this woman, how in the world did you miss the call?! ... I guess you weren't expecting to hear from her. 

LOL. My phone goes silent at 11 p.m. I can see if people call, but it doesn't make noise. I guess I could have changed my settings, but you are right that I didn't expect her to call, and I definitely didn't expect her to call at that hour. That's the latest she's ever called me. So I went to sleep at like 11 and she called at like 11:15.