Fork in the Road

[cerebra87439]

I could use some advice.  My girlfriend and I have been together for three and a half years and have lived together almost two years (since June of 2018).  We are not yet engaged due to a variety of reasons, mostly my hesitation.  I am 39 and will turn 40 in July.  She turned 39 in January.  With our ages, we should be married or at least engaged by now.  I realized that, especially since she wants children.  She and I have never been married before, and I was her first real boyfriend when we met (she was 35 then).  

There is quite a bit of building animosity and tension from her.  She wants to be engaged, and for good reason is concerned about being able to get pregnant after we are engaged, then married.  I have become too comfortable in the relationship.  We do love each other and are best friends.  We both work long hours and have a lot in common.  But there are a few things I cannot get past to take that next step.  In March of 2019 we went and looked at engagement rings, I purchased one and have had it since July.

There are really three major things I cannot get past.  The first is our religious backgrounds.  She is Jewish and I am Christian.  Obviously we knew this from day one and we were both accepting of this.  But over the past few years it keeps becoming more obvious that she won't budge.  I agreed a while back that if we were to have children I was fine raising them Jewish.  This made her happy, but I also shared that I do not want to give up my upbringing.  Since then, as we have discussed other things such as a wedding, it becomes more and more apparent that she won't work with me on this.  For example, I was discussing what a wedding would look like, and she immediately stopped me and said "of course it has to be at night after sundown and we have to have a rabbi marry us, otherwise my parents won't go for that."  What about what I want?  I've never been to a nighttime wedding?  That would be very odd for my family.  I mentioned celebrating Christmas and how much I love that, and she said we could never have a Christmas tree because it would confuse our children.  And, our child has to have a certain name because of tradition.  What if I don't want to follow that tradition?  There have been other things too, it just worries me that it will be all or nothing.  You would think that in 3.5 years we would have worked this out but we haven't. 

The other concern I have is our physical relationship.  I was her first sexual partner, and I think probably her first kiss, all occurring at age 35 for her.  I've been in relationships and have experience, and I wanted to go slowly so she would enjoy that part of our time together.  After all the time we have been together, she does not have interest in sex and is unable to climax.  When we are together in that way, it feels like she only does it for me.  There is no mutual pleasure, it feels like only a release for me.  We have tried books and even went to a sex therapist and a OB/GYN that specializes in dysfunction.  My girlfriend takes 14-15 pills daily for migraine headaches, and I have often mentioned that I think it is all of the medication she takes that could cause the problem.  We still have made no progress in the physical area and it has been very frustrating.  I want to feel "wanted" like she needs me physically.  She dresses very conservatively, and I've even asked if she would wear something fun, just to spice things up.  She doesn't like to wear shorts, and wears long pants and sweaters even in the summertime.  She doesn't masturbate or really even "think" sexually.  This may seem petty, but I want to see her look good, she could be so sexy if she wanted to be.  I am afraid she just isn't wired that way, especially at age 39.

My final major concern is her happiness.  We do a lot for each other, especially now that we live together.  I want to make her happy, and it is very difficult.  She has a high stress job and works long hours.  I do as well.  She is always coming home upset about something, which I understand.  I try to comfort her and help when I can.  Maybe I am more of an optimistic person, but it scares me that her anxiety and unhappiness will never change.  It swings back and forth.  When things are really good with us, they're great.  When she's stressed, it's not good at all.

I completely understand why she is pressuring me to get engaged as soon as possible.  We should be, and that is 100% on me.  I should have left with my concerns a year ago.  But I love her, and she and I have so much invested.  This week she found out she is a carrier for the BRCA 1 gene which can lead to breast, ovarian, and pancreatic cancer.  She became unglued, saying that we should be married now so we can have children before she has to have a mastectomy and a hysterectomy.  This makes me feel awful, because I think I have ruined her window to have children.  She is at her wits end and wants a decision from me right now.  I told her my concerns, and she doesn't share the concerns with me.  

I know that this situation is my fault and that I have not made good choices along the way.  However, I am in this situation.  Does anyone have some advice to help me, or do I need to just propose so we can move things along.  Thank you in advance!

 

 

[healing light]

The things you lay out are major points of pause, not minor issues that you should rush through to marriage because of someone's biological clock.

I'll give you my thoughts in order of your concerns. In regards to the religion, I grew up with neighbors where the husband was Jewish and the wife was Christian. They are still together (been married for 35 or 40 years now). The kids got to celebrate all of the major Christian and Jewish holidays. There was both a Hanukkah and Christmas celebration and it was a lot of fun learning about it from them growing up as friends. Each of the parent's religions was valued in the household, so they got the best of both worlds. They may have been raised primarily in one religion vs. the other, but it wasn't a situation where the celebrations that were important to the husband or the wife were entirely absent or forbidden.

The stipulations from your wife that you never have a Christmas tree or any element that is important to you sounds like inflexibility on her end even though you are willing to raise the children Jewish. What about valuing any part of your traditions that are important to you? There are lots of people who celebrate Christmas even if they don't believe in the traditional stories around Christ as their savior because of the spirit of what the holiday represents (love, charity, giving, the importance of family, etc.). 

The second aspect you mentioned around sex is HUGE and it could quite possibly break the relationship over time, so don't dismiss it. I was an older virgin (32), not for the stereotypical reasons, but I am very comfortable with sex despite it happening for me later in life. Most people who did not know me very well were shocked to find out. The inexperience was due to a unique set of circumstances, not because I was closed off to sexuality. Though I have read in some places that sexual dysfunction can be correlated with delayed age of virginity loss (kind of a what comes first, the chicken or the egg scenario, with social anxiety playing a contributing role in some cases). It is very possible that the medications are interfering with her sensitivity and libido, but given the other things you describe about her demeanor, it sounds like there is an added resistance to sexuality as well that likely goes beyond the physical circumstances. That being said, has she ever been open to alternative ways of treating her migraines? I'm a practitioner of Chinese medicine and I have seen them managed successfully with TCM and other modalities in case her medication is affecting her adversely, so 14-15 pills a day does not have to be her lot in life. Offhand, contributing factors can be anything from stress, hormonal, and dietary triggers to a very tight neck.

Anyway, assuming that you guys have open communication in the bedroom and that she is receiving adequate foreplay, I feel like the sexual issue alone could devolve over time into a bigger source of resentment. And as many of the posters around here could tell you, adding kids to the mix tends to exacerbate things like mismatching libidos, etc. even in couples who had satisfactory sex lives previously. So this is not a matter to be swept under the rug. 

Lastly, has she discussed the possibility of reducing her hours or finding a less stressful job? A high-stress job can be exacerbating the migraines, low libido, and cause strain on her relationship, so it is worth exploring. Have you known her outside of her current occupation well enough to know if this is her natural demeanor? 

I would not rush into marriage until there is more resolution on these matters, despite her genes and the deadline she feels she is under. Each one of these issues could be a fundamental incompatibility.... 

 

[Happy Lemming]

48 minutes ago, cerebra87439 said:

I could use some advice. 

There is quite a bit of building animosity and tension from her. 

This made her happy, but I also shared that I do not want to give up my upbringing.

...she said we could never have a Christmas tree because it would confuse our children. 

What if I don't want to follow that tradition?   You would think that in 3.5 years we would have worked this out but we haven't. 

After all the time we have been together, she does not have interest in sex...

I want to make her happy, and it is very difficult. 

She became unglued...

Does anyone have some advice to help me...

 

Re-read your own opening post.  I just picked out the major points.

Why would you marry this woman?? You seem to already be bending over backwards and for what??

Not only would I NOT marry this woman, I'd be looking for a new place to live and how to get out of this mess.

[cerebra87439]

One other thing I did not mention is that we do not sleep together.  When I had moved in with her, we had never spent the night at her house.  We had spend the night at my place many time and at hotels, etc.  We have a completely different taste in blankets, hot/cold in bed.  She's always freezing, I am always hot.  I have tried to sleep in there, but often I lie awake until 3 or 4am.  We do have a spare bedroom where I sleep, and I am able to sleep normally in there.  She is always asking me "when are we going to sleep together" or is upset why we aren't sleeping together, and telling me how weird it is.  I know it is weird, and not normal.  But I am unable to fall asleep, and when I stay up it keeps her up.  I work long hours and I need to be able to get at least some sleep at night.  This has been a major point of contention for us.  Usually once a month or so we try again, and maybe I'll fall asleep and some nights I can't.  I think this could be the cause of some of our intimacy problems.  I never had a problem sleeping in bed overnight with a previous long term girlfriend.  But, this is one more thing that she is on me about constantly and I feel awful that I can't fall asleep and be with her at night.

[Happy Lemming]

3 minutes ago, cerebra87439 said:

I never had a problem sleeping in bed overnight with a previous long term girlfriend. 

Based on this information, it doesn't sound like you have trouble dating. It appears it is possible for you to find someone who can make you happy (be more compatible with you).

Marriage / children is a HUGE deal, why would you sign on to be unhappy for an extended period of time.

You deserve happiness, good sex, etc. and your choices should be respected, as well.  It appears its her way or the highway.

Run... run fast... run hard... run away.

[SumGuy]

3 hours ago, cerebra87439 said:

....She is at her wits end and wants a decision from me right now.  I told her my concerns, and she doesn't share the concerns with me.  

I know that this situation is my fault and that I have not made good choices along the way.  However, I am in this situation.  Does anyone have some advice to help me, or do I need to just propose so we can move things along.  Thank you in advance!

First of course she doesn't share your concerns, as she is not compromising on how you'd raise the children, have any issue with the frequency or nature of your sex life, and you are the one comforting her when she brings her work home with her.

It's not really your fault, or hers.  It takes time to determine if two people are really compatible enough to get married and raise a family.  3-4 years makes sense to figure that out.  Yes it is never easy when this person you feel is great as a girlfriend (well not great it seems but comfortable) would not be great for the next very major step.

 

I will say getting married never solves these problems, it won't result in her being happy with you for very long (yes for a time, but that will fade).  Because the basis of your happiness together has to come first, marriage won't fix the unhappy parts, and certainly not fix what is making you unhappy.

Children will certainly not make it better.   There are so man other child rearing decisions besides the ones you mention, if you can not see eye to eye on those, why would you think it will be any different on others?  Also, it sounds like a relationship with tension and if you do go forward you will it be a partnership or you catering to her?  Neither create a good environment to raise kids in.

There is no magic length if time in a relationship or age when one should get married.  There are certainly situations that exist where one should not. 

Marriage and kids won't fix the fundamental problems in your relationship, if anything they will make them worse.

[Blind-Sided]

OK... unfortunately... you 2 are just not compatible for the long run, and should probably just break it off now.  There are too many points that is keeping you from getting engaged, and in the time, will be the points for your divorce.  While I do believe that a man and woman who are "Friends" can survive a long marriage... the only way that can work is if you are both on the same page.  I have a buddy who's folks are "Happy" in their marriage... but his dad has lived in another state for 20 years working in a very specialized (PhD level field) job.... and his mother didn't want to leave the town where the kids grew up.  OK... now... my buddy is in his 40's, and lives on the west coast, and his brother is late 30's, and lives in Japan.  But his folks continue to live the way the do. (FYI, his dad is 70, and about ready to retire and move back)   kind of crazy really... but they are all happy, and see each other all the time.

With that out of the way... I have a few points on religion since this is a field I've done a lot of study in.  The first point is her apparent inflexibility on her religion. This is really a huge red flag.  As you already pointed out... "What about your religion?".  OK, let's face it... Judaism is just the "Old testament" of any Christin religion.  So why can't you blend it?  I was raised Catholic... but as I studied, I realized how "Man" has twisted that religion into what they wanted.  I also came to grips that Jesus would have celebrated Hanukkah, Passover, and so-on.  I also realized that it was 500 years after his death that Constantine is the one who did away with the Jewish calibrations, and adopted the other traditions to try to get more people to convert.  Because of that... in my house... there is a Christmas tree, with star of David garden, and a Menorah on the table. We Celebrate Christmas... but observe Hanukkah. We also celebrate pass-over, where the Catholic church only talks about it in passing.   So what am I getting at here????   There is no reason why those 2 traditions cannot live side by side, since one is the evolution of the other. if you are both religious people... then studying both, and hold the traditions of both will be absolutely GREAT for the kids.  And in time, they can make their own choices as they grow up.

As far as the mixed wedding... if you are not Catholic... then there is no reason in the world that your Rev. or minister couldn't co-officiate the wedding in the temple. FYI... I was married in a Basilica with a priest, but my exW's pastor was there to co-officiate the wedding. (she is Lutheran)  The funny thing was... our priest was newly ordained, and the pastor did most of the ceremony.  The priest did the mass.

As far as the sex... that's up to you if you can live with someone with a low sex drive.  My exW was that way... but I loved her, and I was fine with it. (wasn't a factor in our D) 

I wish you luck moving forward... but if she is inflexible in some of these points... you don't want to get married, because things won't get better later on.

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Blind-Sided

[chillii]

Sorry to say but you just don't sound near compatible and if your thinking about a family 2 parents on totally different pages and even worse , always niggly with each other is just a terrible environment for kids and a very miserable existence for you too. But it sounds like everything is her way or the hwy.  l'm afraid though it's crunch time for you because no matter what she's like none the less , it's just not fair to her for you to waste what years she has left to meet and start a family with someone else more suited .

Edited April 24, 2020 by chillii

[cerebra87439]

I appreciate all of the feedback.  We just have so much time invested, it is much more complex than just walking away.  Also, she works as a therapist and has counseled individuals and couples.  She says that "most couples have problems and issues that they have to continue to work on."  She wants to get engaged and then keep working on things because she is telling me daily that she's running out of time and this has to happen now.

Also, since she received her medical diagnosis of BRCA1, any free minute either one of us have she wants to discuss "us" and work on this.  I understand we have plenty to discuss.  I just cannot argue and be on this every minute of every day.  Due to COVID-19, we are both working 100% from home, so when one of us is not in a meeting, she wants to talk.  Yesterday, I had to leave for a bit just to have some time to think.  She thinks it is weird and unreasonable that I need some time to think.

I do love her and want her to be happy, but I don't think she realizes that she is pushing me away with her actions.

[stillafool]

You said she wants children when you marry but if you guys aren't sleeping together and she turns 40 in July do you plan to adopt?

[cerebra87439]

As in sleeping together, I meant we sleep in separate bedrooms at night.  But, you're right.

[Happy Lemming]

11 minutes ago, cerebra87439 said:

We just have so much time invested, it is much more complex than just walking away. 

Also, since she received her medical diagnosis of BRCA1...

...want her to be happy...

You only get one life and approximately 76 years on this planet, you have invested only 4 of those years in this woman...  Plenty of time to find happiness with someone else.

BRCA1 diagnosis is not your fault and not your responsibility, don't compromise on your happiness because of this.

What about your happiness?? 

Finally, I wouldn't let someone coerce me into marriage.  It's a big deal!! "We need to discuss" means you better propose or I'm going to be angry with you because I didn't get my way.

Many, many years ago, a woman I was dating gave me an ultimatum of propose or leave.  I left as I really didn't want to marry her, & I had my doubts.  Fast forward 25 years and she is on her 3rd or 4th marriage, I lost count.  Nope, no one should force you to make such a life changing decision. 

Just my two cents...

 

[Allupinnit]

I honestly feel for your girlfriend - I can understand her urgency as we women do NOT have time to dick around and hope we meet someone we like AND want to have a family with in her limited remaining time to have a baby.  3.5 years at your age is PLENTY of time to propose.

I hope you can man up and let her go.  You don't want to marry her, it's so obvious.  Not that I blame you - you're nothing more than roommates who don't want to give up the status quo.  I sense a lot of animosity toward her but we all know it takes two in these situations and she's probably looking at nursing a broken heart and giving up her dream to have a family when all is said and done with you two.

 

[KBarletta]

I am sorry you are going through this, but I'll be honest as some of the other posters have said, I don't see much of a future for this relationship. 
I have been in your shoes, almost exactly. I had a long-time girlfriend about 20 years ago who was Jewish (I was raised Catholic), and we were close to discussing marriage and children. I told her I would agree to raise the children Jewish, but I still wanted to be able to celebrate Christmas with my family, in my home, and have lights and a tree, etc. She refused.

Honestly that moment, looking back, should have said all I needed to know about her respect for my family and traditions. I celebrated Jewish holidays with her and her family, but she would not allow me the same courtesy to do so. I don't buy the "confused children" argument. Children grow up knowing that there are 100 different religions in the world. There's no confusion. Some people are one thing, some people another. That's the world. Just my opinion.

The sex thing is maybe an even bigger deal. You  are both still relatively young and should be having regular sex. Without that, you are, as another poster said, really just roommates. 

 I would advise you to end this relationship and find someone more compatible or you're likely to be resentful and miserable eventually.

[Blind-Sided]

3 hours ago, cerebra87439 said:

1) We just have so much time invested, it is much more complex than just walking away.  

2) Also, she works as a therapist and has counseled individuals and couples.  She says that "most couples have problems and issues that they have to continue to work on."  She wants to get engaged and then keep working on things because she is telling me daily that she's running out of time and this has to happen now.

3) I do love her and want her to be happy, but I don't think she realizes that she is pushing me away with her actions.

1) No you don't.  A few years is nothing in a lifetime.  And no it isn't that complex.  Even if you have a house together, or finances... all that can be undone. It's just stuff.  BUT... if you get married... that's a legal contract (putting religion aside) and that takes legal actions to undo. And add kids... that makes it complex.  And... not to mention... it really is "Until death do we part" since you will forever be part of each other's lives because of the kids.

2) Knowing that... RUN AWAY !!!!!   first... she will be over analyzing everything in your life.  Not to mention... she should know life with someone is full of compromise.  And, from what you have already told us... she is firm in her life, and she expects you to bend over back wards !   SHE wants you to marry her... SHE wants kids now... SHE wants you to give up your holiday traditions... SHE wants to force Judaism and tradition on the kids, and have no input from your side... SHE thinks having knowledge of other religions will confuse kids.   This is all major stuff in life, and she has basically dictated how your life will be run.   SO... RUN!! 

3) Sure... you may love her... but it doesn't mean you are compatible in the long run. You already know the right answer in your gut... you are just too timid to make the right choice.

[Ruby Slippers]

My suggestion is to talk to a good pre-marriage counselor. You've been rolling along in this relationship with all the issues you outlined for several years - with her in her late 30s, no less - and now have cold feet. After talking it through with the counselor, take the leap or end it so you don't wipe out more of her mothering window.

 

[Happy Lemming]

You met her when she was 35, if being a mother was an important goal for her, what was she doing from 18-35??

You mentioned she was a therapist, so I'll assume she went to college; if so apparently that degree/career was more important than being a mother... correct??

If this goal of being a mother was so important, why didn't her Rabbi help her to meet a Jewish man.  I've heard they assist young Jewish singles, by putting them in touch with one another? (Single mixers at temple, etc.)

It appears she wasted a good portion of her child bearing years, not you...

[OpenBook]

22 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

Run... run fast... run hard... run away.

I agree. This is a nightmare waiting to happen. Do not marry this woman! It's not a good match.

[chillii]

2 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

My suggestion is to talk to a good pre-marriage counselor. You've been rolling along in this relationship with all the issues you outlined for several years - with her in her late 30s, no less - and now have cold feet. After talking it through with the counselor, take the leap or end it so you don't wipe out more of her mothering window.

 

Yeah good idea to help bring you some peace of mind either way and make the decision. l'm all for working on things but you know , needing to literally swim against the tide is not what that's about, a professional looking at things in person and getting both sides of things, should clear things up better for you. lt's scary as hell that she's also a counselor though, God almighty , yet she needs it herself, imagine, these are the people we're told to talk to.

Anyway, right now she's still got time to have her own kids either with you or mr right if she was to get lucky enough to meet him soon.

Edited April 24, 2020 by chillii

[preraph]

I don't like that she's so uncompromising letting you acknowledge your religion. I mean I think it's fine if you concede to let the children grow up Jewish, but I don't think she has any right to tell you you can't have a Christmas tree and celebrate that way too. You do realize that food is going to be a huge issue as well and she will probably expect you to give up a lot of food. 

 

The sex situation doesn't sound good. The thing is marriage is about compromise and she isn't compromising. Traditions are important to people. I mean your family and parents aren't going to appreciate it if you can't celebrate Christmas. She just really have no right to tell you you can't practice your own religion. You're being more than generous letting her raise the kids Jewish. And they going to make up their own mind when they're older, but I do think you have the right to expose them to other traditions. 

 

Have you thought about doing couples counseling and get this stuff out on the table,? sometimes just getting it all out on the table will make one or the other of you clear about whether this is going to work. I think because she's so stringent about it she needs to marry someone Jewish. the next thing that's going to come up and she'll be wanting you to convert to please her parents or whatever. 

 

I think you're right to maybe not consider a permanent union here. She isn't compromising and that is part of marriage. You might have to cut her loose. 

[Scarlett.O'hara]

This situation is very sad. It's clear you both care about each other and are trying to do what you can to save the relationship in your own way, but you're very different people and these aren't small issues that can be easily resolved.

For this relationship to work you would both need to make massive compromises and changes to who you are as people. I'm not sure if that is realistically possible or fair to either of you. You can't pretend to be something you're not.

In your position I would be honest with her and tell her what you're feeling. You have been together long enough to know if this relationship is suitable long term and everything you have said has indicated that it isn't. It would be a mistake to consider marriage and children at this point, and as tough as that conservation will be, she needs to know that.

[chillii]

As a guy we'd come across this situation a lot bc gf's were always thinking about time and babies and marriage, the pressure was unbelievable . You couldn't just cruise along with someone in younger days there was always a guilt. lived with someone in my 20s before l married later- someone else that is.  To this day l still feel sad and guilt because with her l just didn't know if l wanted to marry , but she wanted to have a family . lt went on until l eventually made a decision . Now she's 49 and never had her family because she wasted crucial years with me.  Others before dumped me because l couldn't give answers.

[Happy Lemming]

33 minutes ago, chillii said:

Others before dumped me because l couldn't give answers.

About 16-17 years ago, I had started dating this woman. She was getting towards the end of her "fertility" years and really wanted to have a baby.  We had been dating about 6-8 weeks and things were going good... One night, she sat me down and asked me if I was done being nomadic and ready to stay in one place.  (I had been very nomadic in my youth, not staying in any one place more than a couple of years.  I've moved around quite a bit) I was honest and told her, that I really didn't know.  I told her that I have this "nomadic gene" in my DNA and it drives me to move around. She told me she really couldn't afford to date me a year or two, just to have me move again.

At that point, I got up kissed her good-bye and walked out of her life.  I guess I could have lied and kept sleeping with her, as the sex was good; but I didn't want to take those years away from her.

[Mystery4u]

You two are not compatible. You may have invested a lot already but it will be even more wasted time being unhappy if you stay together.

You know truly in your heart she is not the one for you. Look after your own happiness first always. She does not make you happy.

Someone else will, and you will never get annoyed at their voice, will always have mind blowing sex, will be fine sleeping in the same bed as them, and will want to get married ASAP to them. Why settle for any less.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Mystery4u

[ShyViolet]

Marrying this woman would be a huge mistake.  Just because you have time already invested, and just because SHE wants to get married, does not mean you should.  This sounds like a pretty joyless and unhappy relationship.  You two do not sound compatible.  Why on earth would you bring children into this?  

Don't let her pressure and manipulate you into getting married.