On assigning responsibility to an affair

[elaine567]

9 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Saying someone "made" you cheat is no different then saying someone "made" someone hit them. 

It is not really about being "made" to cheat, the BS is not often forcing anyone to cheat, but it is more about the circumstances some people find themselves in.

If you are starving and someone offers you stolen food do you say "NO that is morally wrong" and continue starving or do you take all the food that is offered to you in order to survive?
If a person is in what is perceived by themselves to be a terrible marriage and are dying inside and then someone else comes along and offers them hope and salvation then surely that is understandable. They will do all they can to survive.
Many people NEED affection, they NEED love, they NEED positive human contact. If these things are not available to them in their marriages then they are going to be very vulnerable to the charms of another.
Not everyone of course, some will martyr themselves to the cause forever, some will simply walk away...
None of these choices are however pain free for anybody. 
 

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

It is not really about being "made" to cheat, the BS is not often forcing anyone to cheat, but it is more about the circumstances some people find themselves in.

If you are starving and someone offers you stolen food do you say "NO that is morally wrong" and continue starving or do you take all the food that is offered to you in order to survive?
If a person is in what is perceived by themselves to be a terrible marriage and are dying inside and then someone else comes along and offers them hope and salvation then surely that is understandable. They will do all they can to survive.
Many people NEED affection, they NEED love, they NEED positive human contact. If these things are not available to them in their marriages then they are going to be very vulnerable to the charms of another.
Not everyone of course, some will martyr themselves to the cause forever, some will simply walk away...
None of these choices are however pain free for anybody. 
 

🤣

I'm sorry, but to me , this is just cheater logic. Logic that tries to explain why it;s okay for someone to take their psychological crap and shove it squarely into someone elses closet. Does this also then mean that the OW/OM is responsible for the WS actions? after all, according to this logic, other people/situations  are responsible for people's actions

Your food analogy? It might work it said starving person wasn't standing in front of both the food pantry and a five star restaurant with a no limit credit  card. People have choices, and if a man or woman has enough freedom to pursue a second relationship, have sex with said person, spend the hours texting each day that we so often hear about, etc. then they can walk away. The truth? Repairing a relationship/divorce is hard-people don't like to do hard things if they don't have to. cheating is a heck of a lot easier, at least for them.

"vulnerable to the charm?". You know, it's this sort of statement that fits in perfectly with cheater logic.  The truth? A bad marriage has TWO spouses, yet it's only the WS that uses that as an excuse for cheating. They either do that, or they use their kids- they can't leave because of gthe kids, so of course they have no choice but to cheat! 
What a pile of crap to place on some very small shoulders. I sure wouldn't want to be the "reaosn" mom or dad was unhappy for years and years.

Edited May 6, 2020 by pepperbird

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

The truth? Repairing a relationship/divorce is hard-people don't like to do hard things if they don't have to. cheating is a heck of a lot easier, at least for them.

Exactly, but if as some seem to be, they are in a dark and dreadful place already,  then why would they want to try to "fix it" with someone they feel alienated from?
Maybe they have repeatedly tried to "fix it" to no avail.
Yes they should just walk but why do that with all the upheaval that would entail?
They can park their unhappy marriage on the sidewalk, whilst they fly off to sunnier climes every now and again... The perfect solution in order to get them through the dark days.
Most people want to take the path of least resistance., so it is hardly a surprise that given a choice between hard labour and "fun", some do not tend to choose hard labour.

As for "cheater logic" is that not what this thread is all about?

[Bittersweetie]

As someone who cheated, I was 100% responsible for my actions. Looking at it from a personal standpoint...my husband could've been the worst husband ever, but my actions ruined my own personal integrity and respect. I could've handled myself in a much better and healthier way.

I understand that people may have marriages that are have serious issues. My marriage wasn't the strongest at the time of my affair. However I could have made the choice to handle those issues with respect and integrity but I didn't. I let myself down, along with my husband and marriage.

Plus there is the issue that many WS do some kind of mental gymnastics in order to justify their choices, and unless some self-reflection happens, the justifications tend to continue. Like pepperbird said, it's not an easy thing to admit to hurting someone, and some may tell themselves anything in order to avoid that admission. Honestly, me admitting that I made choices that hurt people was a start to my own growth and healing.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Bittersweetie

[understand50]

If you believe in Free will,  the WS is the one who decides to cheat.   Of course, one could cheat in a "bad" marriage, but that brings up the point, of why one did not move to get out of the marriage instead of cheat.  Cheating removes the moral high ground from the cheater.  In my own case, being a BS, and in reading much here, I find that most, if not all, cheater are self centered and really do not think past their actions.  They live for the moment.  "I deserve this".  "I am not happy".  Or, "I am horny, and I do not think I will get caught".  The last one is, I think, where a lot of today cheating comes from.

Jimmy, you do have somewhat of a point.  Being a "bad" spouse, can lead to unhappiness on the other and could lead them to look at cheating as a option, or as a vacation from their present  reality. Still does not make it right.  Still begs the question on why one was not able to put more work into a marriage, or relationship.  No one is made to cheat. 

Reconciliation, is the BS making  the effort to forgive, not forget, and put all their energy back in to the marriage.  Something the WS did not want to do before they cheated.  So looking it from that point of view, why was the WS not able to "work" on the marriage, but decides to cheat? 

 

I wish you luck...

 

[elaine567]

15 minutes ago, understand50 said:

Reconciliation, is the BS making  the effort to forgive, not forget, and put all their energy back in to the marriage.  Something the WS did not want to do before they cheated.  So looking it from that point of view, why was the WS not able to "work" on the marriage, but decides to cheat? 

For the BS their marriage is worth saving, there is no other "better" option trying to entice them away.
They want their marriage to work.
That may be due to many things, love, commitment, kids, money, ego, desperation, fear... etc.
The WS is in a far different place they have another option, and that option looks a whole lot more satisfying than trying to fix anything.

Old chest of drawers, weeks/months of work to make it look new again if that is even possible vs new shiny chest of drawers straight out of the shop..

[DKT3]

It really comes down to accountability.  Many cheaters don't want any so it becomes about their spouse.  

I always say bad marriage or spouses don't cause infidelity,  if it did there would be 100% infidelity in 100% of marriages. All marriages get bad at some point and all spouses are bad at some point yet, overall so few women actually cheat, why is that? As stated in a pervious post many if not most cheaters are selfish, self centered and shortsighted,  they are people who tend to live in the moment, that is the variation in the marriages,  that is why they cheat. 

Worst yet is that so many convince themselves that cheating is somehow a selfless act because they only cheat to preserve the family unit, they only cheat so they can deal with a bad marriage.  To all of those who hasn't cheated it's just sounds like foolishness. 

[elaine567]

Of course some cheat to get out of a bad marriage, the exit affair.
They see an escape route and take it.  
If the marriage wasn't bad they would not be seeking ways to get out of it.

[mark clemson]

 Clearly in some of the marriages we see discussed here there's a lot more missing than the WS's morals. The WS made unethical choices and could have made better ones and/or found better ways to handle things, and the BS is NOT responsible for the cheating insofar as it's the WS's decision. THOSE POINTS are completely true.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean the marriages would've been both lasting and satisfying. Sometimes there could be improvements and happiness, no doubt, and no doubt sometimes a divorce instead.

[Mr. Lucky]

On 5/4/2020 at 1:30 PM, elaine567 said:

I am not sure any BS really deserves to be cheated on but I do think unhappy marriages create cheaters.

I can only speak to the small sample of married friends and relatives I know have been unfaithful.  And in each of those cases, the marriage was at least functional if not outwardly happy.  While who knows what goes on behind closed doors, the general perception of those around them was positive.

Cheating is about the WS, it's not about the marriage...

Mr. Lucky

[heartwhole2]

It's very important that we make a distinction between what motivates a person and whether their choice is acceptable, especially when it comes to affairs. We don't say, "Yes, he beat her, but she really neglected and irritated him first" when describing domestic abuse. We don't say, "Yeah, he stole from his employer, but only because they didn't promote and value him like they should have." I can't think of another circumstance where we discuss something that is a wrong and unhealthy choice but make sure to point fingers at others for motivating the culprit to make the choice. Sure, a pedophile has a mis-wired brain, a serial killer may have experienced terrible abuse or had FOO issues . . . but none of these circumstances makes their choices any less wrong or harmful. In those cases we wouldn't dare blame the victim, would we? And yet, in infidelity we do, adding insult to injury. It's your fault I mistreated you!

There's a whole forum on this site full of people who have entered affairs precisely because they believe that it's an acceptable choice when the marriage is unhappy, and they cause themselves and others great harm because they bought into this fallacy. Women sell themselves short by buying into the idea that it's on them to keep their man happy, or else he is entitled to look elsewhere. Men suffer from this as well. Until we figure out that it is our responsibility to make ourselves happy, whole, and healthy, and that when we do so we will naturally have happy, whole, and healthy relationships, we will keep going around in circles. It's heartbreaking to see so many OW trying to figure out how to have a happy, whole, and healthy relationship with someone who is none of those things. They desperately want to believe it's the circumstances' fault that their valiant MM is driven to harm, deceive, and betray, not that he lives in undesirable circumstances because he cannot or will not create better ones. 

This site is just crowd-sourced musings and advice, and readers should understand that they aren't getting professional advice. There's no guarantee that the people posting here are healthy people with experience in healthy relationships. You've got to sort the wheat from the chaff.

[Amethyst68]

There's certainly a sense of entitlement. The WS happiness over everybody else. They deserve to be happy, it's their turn etc. Doesn't matter who they have to step on to get there.

[DKT3]

I think the point being missed is this is about why people cheat and not what's wrong in a marriage.  Those are actually two different things. 

You could put 10 women and men in the identical situation and statistically speaking only 2 women and 3 men will cheat. If it was the marriage that created it why wouldn't all 10 cheat?

It comes down to the individual,  I will concede that there are situations that may increase the odds that an individual will cheat, but never the reason they actually do. 

[pepperbird]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Of course some cheat to get out of a bad marriage, the exit affair.
They see an escape route and take it.  
If the marriage wasn't bad they would not be seeking ways to get out of it.

If this is true, then that completely blows the common "I never meant for this to happen" excuse right out of the water.

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, Amethyst68 said:

There's certainly a sense of entitlement. The WS happiness over everybody else. They deserve to be happy, it's their turn etc. Doesn't matter who they have to step on to get there.

It could just be me, but I don't see how cheating could make them happy. How can someone lie like that over and over and not feel sickened by the person  looking back at them in the mirror every morning?

[mark clemson]

@HW2 - I'm not sure who saying's "it's your fault" to the BS. I don't see that in this thread above, but maybe others have implied it elsewhere?

@DKT3 and generally, I agree the state of the marriage and the decision to cheat are two different things. It's also true that, from some WS's perspective there's a relationship between those things. Just as only a certain percentage of spouses would cheat in a bad marriage or what have you, a certain percentage of WS's would not have cheated had they not felt unhappy with the marriage.

For clarity, I DO think it's completely fair to say that while the WS and the BS are jointly responsible for the state of the marriage, the decision to cheat is the WS's responsibility alone. The WS could have made more ethical and/or better thought out choices or toughed it out. They might not have seen it that way at the time, but I think the reality is if there's going to be a divorce anyhow, a Dday just makes it that much worse.

No doubt there are some WS's out there who got away with cheating, were never discovered, and are happy with their decision and also stayed married. My guess is many of them were never that unhappy in the marriage to begin with, although there are probably some exceptions there too.

[mark clemson]

13 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

If this is true, then that completely blows the common "I never meant for this to happen" excuse right out of the water.

Seems to me some of those may be saying they never expected to be unhappy enough in their marriage that the thought of cheating would even occur. And there are also the friendship -> EA -> PA group.

[pepperbird]

I like to think that there is no truth to the saying "once a cheater,always a cheater" because I really don't think that's true. I think a lot of affairs are a form of self medication ( for lack of a better term) for people who are fundamentally unhappy. It could be their marriage, their job, their life, that they didn't get what they felt entitled to, whatever. I don't think most WS are prowling around, looking for an affair, but when it comes ott he fork in the road, rather than refusing to engage with someone outside the marriage, they actively chose  to.

Like the poster above mentioned- there's few situations I can think of where someone can cause this much heartache and both they, and others, will still try and blame the person who they hurt. As much as I don't like to use the analogy, it's like blaming a man or woman for being attacked because they dressed a certain way, went down a dark street, etc.

Some things are just wrong. they can't be justified

Edited May 6, 2020 by pepperbird

[heartwhole2]

 

2 hours ago, pepperbird said:

It could just be me, but I don't see how cheating could make them happy. How can someone lie like that over and over and not feel sickened by the person  looking back at them in the mirror every morning?

It certainly wouldn't be my definition of happiness, but there are people on the low end of the empathy spectrum who do not value other humans in their own right, and they are probably "happy" doing whatever pleases them. I think I would call that self-satisfied, though. It's not the joy that comes from being in harmony with those you love. Narcissists place the most value on appearances and status and so I suppose they are "happy" when they have those. Good on them?

Thankfully, not being a psychopath, my husband really was unhappy during his affair. He looked terrible, wasn't sleeping, was drinking too much, etc. I couldn't have stayed if he didn't have the capacity to become a person who loves for the sake of loving, who gives for the sake of giving, who cares about his own integrity, etc.

[Amethyst68]

I read recently that something like 85% of marriages survive affairs. I do wonder how many are true reconciliation though. However if the marriages were truly that bad then why isn't the divorce rate higher?

IMO many spouses (BS & WS) stay together for the sake of family, finances etc and eventually learn to 'love' again'. I think a relatively small number do the necessary work to fully reconcile and prevent further affairs down the road.

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, Amethyst68 said:

I read recently that something like 85% of marriages survive affairs. I do wonder how many are true reconciliation though. However if the marriages were truly that bad then why isn't the divorce rate higher?

IMO many spouses (BS & WS) stay together for the sake of family, finances etc and eventually learn to 'love' again'. I think a relatively small number do the necessary work to fully reconcile and prevent further affairs down the road.

Definitely true that many people won't challenge themselves to be better. But I hope people visit here because they want to become more healthy and whole. We'll never reach perfection, but if we're a little wiser and kinder each day than the day before, imagine how great our lives can be.

In the early days, I was desperate to be "reconciled." I read the 2-5 year timeline and despaired. But the truth is that there's light even on our darkest days. We can be free in a prison and we can have joy amidst great tragedy. I wanted to fast forward through the pain but there is no way but through. In the process I learned that loving ourselves and others better is something we choose anew each day; we don't check off some boxes and then return to thoughtlessness and selfishness.

I'm not sure I can explain what it means to be reconciled. I mean, we were always 100% married. We immediately decided to stay married. So at what point do trust and forgiveness and self-awareness and remorse pass some magical reconciliation threshold? I don't know. I don't think it matters. It only matters if you're living your best life today. If two people in a marriage are both doing that, it's a precious thing.

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, Amethyst68 said:

I read recently that something like 85% of marriages survive affairs. I do wonder how many are true reconciliation though. However if the marriages were truly that bad then why isn't the divorce rate higher?

IMO many spouses (BS & WS) stay together for the sake of family, finances etc and eventually learn to 'love' again'. I think a relatively small number do the necessary work to fully reconcile and prevent further affairs down the road.

I guess it depends on the definition of survival.  Far fewer then 85% survive infidelity long term. I would buy 85% survive a year. The true data behind divorce is difficult to compile because States have gone to generic wording as opposed to the hard categories of the past.

50% of marriages make it today, hard to imagine 85% involving infidelity survive. 

[DKT3]

Personally,  our marriage didn't survive infidelity.  We divorced 14 months later.  We are together and remarried now.

I believe that most marriages never rebound even if they stay together.  I believe that is because the motivation to stay married don't include the relationship between husband and wife,  but the family unit, be if for financial reasons,  logistics with children or fear of external embarrassment for failing.  In many of these situations there may be a lack of desire to put in the work to improve the relationship. 

[heartwhole2]

2 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Personally,  our marriage didn't survive infidelity.  We divorced 14 months later.  We are together and remarried now.

I believe that most marriages never rebound even if they stay together.  I believe that is because the motivation to stay married don't include the relationship between husband and wife,  but the family unit, be if for financial reasons,  logistics with children or fear of external embarrassment for failing.  In many of these situations there may be a lack of desire to put in the work to improve the relationship. 

Frankly I think our tendency as a society to assign blame to the betrayed spouse makes this a larger leap for WS. Everyone knows that alcoholics need to be sober and need to be in AA to stay healthy. There's not similar messaging for affairs because they're portrayed as personal journeys of self-discovery or whatnot. By their fear of being caught cheaters acknowledge that affairs are wrong . . . otherwise they would just confidently announce, "Hey, since you are such a subpar spouse, obviously I am going to get my needs met elsewhere FYI, as is my right." And yet when they are caught, it's off to MC to examine why the marriage was so unfulfilling. People point out the flaws of the BS as though A led to B. It's tiresome and it keeps people stuck in mediocrity because they don't have to take responsibility. I'd almost rather we be a society like some where mistresses are par for the course and marriages are prioritized and protected, rather than this mixed messaging where affairs are idealized when they're convenient and then blamed on the victim when they're not. 
 

[Prudence V]

On 5/5/2020 at 12:07 AM, heartwhole2 said:

And yet I've never seen someone advise that someone should get cheated on.

I have, on these very boards. Usually by a Bs to a WS, so that they’ll understand what their BS was going through.