On assigning responsibility to an affair

[mark clemson]

While I'm at it, in a case where the woman described above does decide to cheat, what's the "cause"? She made the decision, true. But she's a human being with emotional and physical needs. Would you call her moral lack or other putative "problems" the cause?

It seems to me that having needs she can't reasonably meet in her situation is the "cause". Probably there are other view, though?

Edited May 7, 2020 by mark clemson

[heartwhole2]

32 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Correct, although I wouldn't say "absolve". Quite frankly, you're not one of the folks around here who needs such an extreme example to make the point. This thread is about causes for cheating, and some seem to think it can always ever only be the cheater who is the "problem" in a relationship. I think there are folks who are far more interested in preserving that illusion than I am in justifying anything people may do. 

How would you recommend a woman in the situation I described (and we know they're out there) meet her needs?  She should just tough it out and go without love? Bad choice of husband = a life wasted or ?

I'm going to hold off on responding to some of your questions for now, hope that's ok.

Saying an affair is the responsibility of the person who has the affair is not the same as saying that person is the one and only problem in a relationship. 

A battered woman without the resources, financial and emotional, to leave an abusive relationship is almost certainly only going to feel worse after a ONS, not feel as though she had any needs met. But that's beside the point. 

Making a different unhealthy choice to distract us from the larger unhealthy situation we don't want to change isn't going to help. It will just compound the issues. We need to gather up all of our resources to choose health and reject dysfunction. 

Say my boss sexually harasses me, demeans me, and promotes less deserving people above me. So I embezzle because I deserve that money. Anyone can see that. Right? No. I am an adult with agency. I cannot change my boss. I can change my employment situation. If I can't feed my family without it, I seek the help of a lawyer. 

It's a false dichotomy to say that my choices are cheating/getting my needs met or not getting my needs met. The answer is option C . . . I leave the unfulfilling relationship, make it fulfilling, or make it an open relationship. 

[heartwhole2]

I know that this is easier said than done. It's hard to stop a vicious cycle of resentment, dysfunction, etc. But it's harmful to real life people to suggest our making an unhealthy choice is someone else's fault.

I have some close BW friends. One lovely lady was in an abusive relationship with a narcissist. She believed deep down in her bones that his abuse was her fault. The strength that it took her to rewire that programming and leave is unimaginable. I can't say I would have it. Suggesting that her husband's cheating on her was her fault would cause anyone who isn't 100% solid in their own self-worth and agency to question their right to a relationship that is honest. And we all have that right. You, me, my friend, our spouses. 

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

So in a case where you have a physically abusive man who threatens to murder a woman and the children if she leaves, and she's lonely, miserable, and desperate for some form of relatively healthy affection (relative to her spouse) and she takes of her wedding ring one night and has a ONS with some rando guy while her BS is drunk, she's the problem?

The odds that a truly abused wife is cheating it actually really low. But to answer your question,  in my opinion,  yes she is the problem in the cheating.  

Cheaters continually acting paralyzed by fear into staying in a marriage then going out and cheating is contradictory to say the least. 

Cheating is never the only option.  Choosing infidelity is still more about that woman poor decisions making skills along with stay with an abusive husband. It's shortsighted and potentially deadly. 

[mark clemson]

36 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

It's a false dichotomy to say that my choices are cheating/getting my needs met or not getting my needs met. The answer is option C . . . I leave the unfulfilling relationship, make it fulfilling, or make it an open relationship. 

Ok - so based on the scenario parameter I think it's not a false dichotomy. It seems you would death for her, albeit in an effort to meet her needs? That's the result based on the scenario as described.

Your choice results in death. I would think a ONS would be the more logical and reasonable choice to meet her needs. But we can agree to disagree.

 

18 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

The odds that a truly abused wife is cheating it actually really low. But to answer your question,  in my opinion,  yes she is the problem in the cheating.  

Cheaters continually acting paralyzed by fear into staying in a marriage then going out and cheating is contradictory to say the least. 

Cheating is never the only option.  Choosing infidelity is still more about that woman poor decisions making skills along with stay with an abusive husband. It's shortsighted and potentially deadly. 

Ok, could you explain what you mean by "she is the problem in the cheating" in this scenario. She is supposed to not have biological or emotional needs or simply repress them?

This thread is about causes, and I'm not seeing the "cause" as "her", which is kind of the point of my scenario. I'm seeing the choice as one made by her, and the cause as her having normal human needs in a difficult situation. Do you see it differently?

It's true, cheating is NOT the ONLY option for her. What choice/actions would you make for her?  (And remember, hubby's got an itchy trigger finger.)

Edited May 7, 2020 by mark clemson
add a detail

[Timshel]

7 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

The odds that a truly abused wife is cheating it actually really low. But to answer your question,  in my opinion,  yes she is the problem in the cheating.  

Cheaters continually acting paralyzed by fear into staying in a marriage then going out and cheating is contradictory to say the least. 

Cheating is never the only option.  Choosing infidelity is still more about that woman poor decisions making skills along with stay with an abusive husband. It's shortsighted and potentially deadly. 

With all respect, I see you all over this post.  It's sooo judgey. So people who cheat are the worst of the worst?  Come on....cheaters suck but there is much worse in the world.  Most people who cheat are garden variety liars; any person they are cheating with/with two brain cells to rub together would see right through them. 

This is about marriage.  How two people remain faithful, or in a lack of 'emotional wholeness' seek something in another willing persons crotch.  As much as infidelity is destructive, so is the described victimization of people who have been cheated on.  There is no need to believe that a wandering spouse is a stop gate for the betrayed spouse to the big, wide world.  That is the problem.

[BaileyB]

21 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I would think a ONS would be the more logical and reasonable choice to meet her needs. 

What choice/actions would you make for her?  (And remember, hubby's got an itchy trigger finger.)

Where are you getting this “she has needs” from... are you talking about the need for sex or her need for a safe, healthy, and loving partner/relationship? If it is the later, do you really think it is going to be met by a ONS? What she is doing by sleeping with another man is attempting to put a bandaid on a broken arm, if you will.

From a woman’s perspective, I tend to agree with heartwhole, there is not likely much comfort to be found from a ONS. Sure, it may scratch an itch which for some and “meet his/herneeds.” But, considering that most women probably won’t have and orgasm from a ONS (sex for a woman is not always wonderful with an unfamiliar partner), and that physical intimacy for most women is an emotional connection as much as it is a physical connection, she is unlikely to feel the affection or comfort and security that comes from lying in the arms of a man that you love. She is likely to be left feeling even worse, even more bereft, after the experience. 

And worst case scenario, as it relates to her abusive husband, she is throwing gasoline on an smouldering fire. Which is why again, the choice I would make for her is to GET OUT of a bad situation, rather than placing herself in a position that puts her at even more risk. Easier said than done, I know. But, it would be the best long term solution for this woman and her children. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

14 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Where are you getting this “she has needs” from... do you seriously believe that her need for a safe, healthy, and loving partner/relationship is going to be met by a ONS? What she is doing by sleeping with another man is attempting to put a bandaid on a broken arm, if you will. ..  She is likely to be left feeling even worse, even more bereft, after the experience.

I think that's quite a reasonable view in her case. It''s a bandaid. She's in desperate measures for desperate times mode. She might go out and have a few more ONS's and take more risks with her safety as well.

That said, I DO think many women say/write they have "needs" and certainly many indulge in ONSs. May not be the most satisfying thing, but they certainly DO it. Tinder and pick up bars are a thing. So, I think I'm ok/plausible stating she has emotional and/or physical needs. Maybe she's a 28 y.o.?

So again, what are the "causes" of her not being able to meet those needs and thus turning to infidelity as one option? What can/should she plausibly do?

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by mark clemson
typos

[BaileyB]

5 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I think that's quite a reasonable view in her case. It''s a bandaid. She's in desperate measures for desperate times mode. She might go out and have a few more ONS's and take more risks with her safety as well.

So again, what are the "causes" or her not being able to meet those needs and thus turning to infidelity as one option? What can/should she plausibly do?

DIVORCE! Why is that option less preferable than staying in an abusive and unsafe marriage?

Why the need for the bandaid at all, because that bandaid may cost her her life. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

Ok, and that's reasonable for many folks. For her it = death. So you've chosen divorce leading to death over infidelity. I think she probably would have seen it coming and not tried to divorce, but that's ok, were in a scenario.

I would posit that infidelity would be a more reasonable choice for her. We can agree to disagree.

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Ok, and that's reasonable for many folks. For her it = death. So you've chosen divorce leading to death over infidelity. I think she probably would have seen it coming and not tried to divorce, but that's ok, were in a scenario.

I would posit that infidelity would be a more reasonable choice for her. We can agree to disagree.

No, I’ve chosen divorce, restraining order, new town, new apartment, new relationship, new life over infidelity, 

ONS = death, if she is discovered. Tonight on Dateline, abusive husband kills wife after he discovers, she has been seeking out men for sex during their marriage.

Edited May 8, 2020 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

No, I’ve chosen divorce, restraining order, new town, new apartment, new relationship, new life over infidelity, 

ONS = death, if she is discovered. 20/20. Dateline. Abusive husband kills wife after he discovers, she has been seeking out men to meet her needs during their marriage.

That's all plausible (if rare) and to be fair my scenario is hopefully at least somewhat rare too, but no. You can write your own scenario/thought exercise and I suspect I'd be tempted to participate, but per the one I've laid out (hubby is super-agressive psycho type and AP is out-of-towner/unknown ONS) that isn't a realistic outcome. New town etc really doesn't help.

Back to causation (which is the main point anyhow). What are the "causes" of her not being able to meet her reasonable human needs and thus turning to infidelity as one option?

[DKT3]

57 minutes ago, Timshel said:

With all respect, I see you all over this post.  It's sooo judgey. So people who cheat are the worst of the worst?  Come on....cheaters suck but there is much worse in the world.  Most people who cheat are garden variety liars; any person they are cheating with/with two brain cells to rub together would see right through them. 

This is about marriage.  How two people remain faithful, or in a lack of 'emotional wholeness' seek something in another willing persons crotch.  As much as infidelity is destructive, so is the described victimization of people who have been cheated on.  There is no need to believe that a wandering spouse is a stop gate for the betrayed spouse to the big, wide world.  That is the problem.

It's not about marriage,  its about cheating.  The problem with so many unfaithful people is they can't separate the two. Doing so means they have to hold themselves accountable for their actions. 

It's easy to say, my spouse wasn't this or didn't do that so I had no other choice but to find someone else.  Its nonsense.  Why? Because it doesn't change the situation for starters. Adding on to that logic would it be a continuation if in response to that response the betrayed spouse did something violent? Would the betrayed spouse also not be responsible for thier actions?

At the end of the day everyone is responsible for there actions.  

[DKT3]

46 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

That's all plausible (if rare) and to be fair my scenario is hopefully at least somewhat rare too, but no. You can write your own scenario/thought exercise and I suspect I'd be tempted to participate, but per the one I've laid out (hubby is super-agressive psycho type and AP is out-of-towner/unknown ONS) that isn't a realistic outcome. New town etc really doesn't help.

Back to causation (which is the main point anyhow). What are the "causes" of her not being able to meet her reasonable human needs and thus turning to infidelity as one option?

Unfortunately it's not rare. Roughly 80 % of women killed in American are a result of multiple partners. Either a OW kills the wife, the wife kills the other woman, the WH kills either the wife or OW or the BH kills the wife. 

It's never wise to remain married to a violent person, even less wise to antagonize or embarrass them.

Infidelity is never the only option,  which makes it a choice they are making.  Blaming others for making that choice is asinine.  Just as it would be if the husband in your scenario blamed his wife for how he was to her.

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Ok - so based on the scenario parameter I think it's not a false dichotomy. It seems you would death for her, albeit in an effort to meet her needs? That's the result based on the scenario as described.

Your choice results in death. I would think a ONS would be the more logical and reasonable choice to meet her needs. But we can agree to disagree.

I honestly find this argument ridiculous. To suggest that a woman worried about her survival and the survival of her children would have any capacity to consider sexual needs is a stretch. You are trying to posit that the BS has made it impossible for the WS to leave the marriage, when really I suspect it's a matter that the WS doesn't want to make difficult choices.

I'd like to have my cake and eat it too. I'd like to have the wonderful marriage I have now without the trauma of having survived infidelity. I'd like to my health back. I'd like to have my father back. There are many things I would wish for in an ideal world, but I have to deal with reality. I have to live a healthy life within the constraints of all my blessings and all my troubles. 

The WS's reality is that they will have to give up some things in order to leave the marriage . . . some money, some status, some time with their children . . . which in an ideal world they'd get to keep. But the adult faces reality. If integrity is what you'd rather give up, OK, but do us all a favor and own it. Don't pretend that you literally have no agency in your relationship, when even many a battered woman has left a bad marriage. And certainly, advising a battered woman not to leave because she might get killed is contrary to what experts counsel. Instead, they counsel leaving carefully, with protections in place. The longer a woman stays in an abusive relationship, the greater her risk. In an ideal world she'd never be in an abusive relationship to begin with. In an ideal world, our hypothetical cheater would have never married such a disappointing partner. I want to model for my children how to deal with getting dealt a bad hand because sooner or later, they will too. It's important for them to learn how to deal with toxic situations and toxic people (hint . . . the answer is not being toxic myself). 

[mark clemson]

48 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Infidelity is never the only option,  which makes it a choice they are making.  Blaming others for making that choice is asinine. 

So what is your choice for this person?

I'm not "blaming" others, even the evil (in this particular case) BH, although I can see how one could interpret it that way. My point is she is in a situation where she can't get her needs met in a normal way. You stated above that "she is the problem in the cheating." What does that actually mean? What is your assessment of cause? The situation as a whole has nothing to do with her decisions or ?

Edited May 8, 2020 by mark clemson
typo

[Timshel]

49 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

At the end of the day everyone is responsible for there actions.  

Duh...it's like you are debating a world that isn't reality.  In the real world, people are not perfect.  Do we want them to be the best they can be, why yes, we do.  Some people's bs ometer is so high that they rarely have to put up with any bullcrap.  What should every one else do?  Wait for unicorns and butterflies out of a person's behind so that they feel 'safe' and 'sure' that this person will never, ever in a million years cheat on...while there are quite frankly, bigger fish to fry.  For Real?

How about a person is whole and sane enough to be able to roll with life and the punches without losing their sh*t.  That is the real McCoy.

[mark clemson]

 

27 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I honestly find this argument ridiculous.  I'd like to have my cake and eat it too.  ... The WS's reality is that they will have to give up some things in order to leave the marriage . . . some money, some status, some time with their children . . . which in an ideal world they'd get to keep. But the adult faces reality.

I don't disagree with you (at least not as stated) and I respect your honesty. Most WS have realistic other options that won't necessarily get them killed. However, my rather extreme (but not completely unrealistic) example illustrates a point, that counters what I see as an equally extreme view - that the situation of a marriage has no bearing on decisions a spouse makes, that human needs, "weaknesses", etc don't factor in at all, etc. Your posting history doesn't seem suggest you hold that extreme view.

 

 

[DKT3]

Mark, if a relationship doesn't work it needs to end. Cheating is shortsighted and momentary.  Then what? Back to a horrible situation. 

A person can have a horrible spouse,  yet no matter how horrible cheating is still the WS choice.  They were not forced because his was horrible. 

Timshel, I honestly have a hard time following your point. It seems your saying that people are too weak and dependent to not cheat.  That people can only be complete and sane if they are having thier needs meet externally.  Again that's nonsense.  All this talk about unicorns,  I'm not following.

[DKT3]

14 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

 

I don't disagree with you (at least not as stated) and I respect your honesty. Most WS have realistic other options that won't necessarily get them killed. However, my rather extreme (but not completely unrealistic) example illustrates a point, that counters what I see as an equally extreme view - that the situation of a marriage has no bearing on decisions a spouse makes, that human needs, "weaknesses", etc don't factor in at all, etc. Your posting history doesn't seem suggest you hold that extreme view.

 

 

The point remains.  I've argued this point with you for some time. Most cheaters cheat and want to stay married because they are the primary benefactor of both. Both serves thier needs on some level,  any benefit for others are a byproduct.  

Listen, start a thread and say you are abusive because your spouse caused it and watch the reaction.  Now explain how saying the spouse holds responsibility for your cheating is different.  

 

[JimmyNorth]

On 5/6/2020 at 3:37 AM, elaine567 said:

It is not really about being "made" to cheat, the BS is not often forcing anyone to cheat, but it is more about the circumstances some people find themselves in.

If you are starving and someone offers you stolen food do you say "NO that is morally wrong" and continue starving or do you take all the food that is offered to you in order to survive?
If a person is in what is perceived by themselves to be a terrible marriage and are dying inside and then someone else comes along and offers them hope and salvation then surely that is understandable. They will do all they can to survive.
Many people NEED affection, they NEED love, they NEED positive human contact. If these things are not available to them in their marriages then they are going to be very vulnerable to the charms of another.
Not everyone of course, some will martyr themselves to the cause forever, some will simply walk away...
None of these choices are however pain free for anybody. 
 

100% agree...Beautifully said!!!

[Prudence V]

17 hours ago, Timshel said:

In my observations, the woman most always takes the brunt of a failed marriage.  Unless there is physical abuse or addiction, women who initiate leaving a marriage (particularly when children are involved) are more likely to be socially criticized then men in a typical separation/divorce. 

I guess this varies from place to place. Leaving an “unsatisfactory“ marriage to a “selfish” man is viewed as strong, admirable even, where I’m from. Especially given that women are usually worse off financially after divorce - it’s seen as noble, as good role modelling for the kids, and as one in the eye of the Patriarchy. Men, however - they should just suck it up. 

[Prudence V]

16 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Correct, like they wont cheat. Your post only proves my point, it's not the marriage or spouse but the individual who is cheating that is the problem. 

My point was specifically that it was not the individual, but their backstory (ie the context) that was “the problem”. 

[Prudence V]

10 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I honestly find this argument ridiculous. To suggest that a woman worried about her survival and the survival of her children would have any capacity to consider sexual needs is a stretch.

I used to work as a volunteer counsellor of a used women in a women’s refuge. You’d clearly be shocked by just how common this scenario was IRL. 

[Bittersweetie]

As someone who actually cheated...when I cheated, my marriage was not that great. There was no physical abuse or anything that extreme involved, but neither of us were getting all of our needs met. And we both were conflict-avoidant at the time so didn't discuss it.

We were in the same marriage, with the same issues, yet: I cheated. My husband did not. How could my affair, my choices, have been his fault? Yes, at the time of my affair I did blame some of my actions on my H, but I can clearly see now that was my mind trying to justify my poor choices.