On assigning responsibility to an affair

[elaine567]

12 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I honestly find this argument ridiculous. To suggest that a woman worried about her survival and the survival of her children would have any capacity to consider sexual needs is a stretch.

But it is not likely to be about her sexual needs, is it?
 

[elaine567]

49 minutes ago, Bittersweetie said:

We were in the same marriage, with the same issues, yet: I cheated. My husband did not.

But that is assuming you are exactly the same, with the same needs, the same wants, the same desires, the same opportunities, the same circumstances... etc.
Sometimes people do not cheat as they just cannot find anyone to cheat with...

[DKT3]

3 hours ago, Prudence V said:

My point was specifically that it was not the individual, but their backstory (ie the context) that was “the problem”. 

The backstory? Upbringing? If you're saying our upbringing molds us and sets our problem solving and coping mechanisms then I agree. If you're saying the history of the relationship then I strongly disagree. 

[Zona]

The responsibility for the affair lies with the cheater. 100%. No exceptions.

While the marriage problems may be shared, the decision to cheat is completely in the control of the cheater, and the betrayed spouse is 0% responsible for that choice, even while they may have contributed to the marital problems, and what marriage doesn't have problems? If having marital problems is the standard for justification, then everyone is justified.

Furthermore, the chance of an affair improving your life is very low, 5 to 10% at best, but likely lower. People who cheat almost always cheat with other married people, therefore playing a role in the destruction of another marriage and family.

It's a selfish, awful thing to do that will boomerang back on you in the end. I've had plenty of opportunity to cheat but never have. I have a conscience and I have empathy for other people in my life, and that's rules out cheating. It's a choice I make and I will never waiver.

If your marriage is unhappy, DIVORCE YOUR SPOUSE and move on. I may eventually end up divorcing my wayward wife, but I will never cheat before the divorce is official.

If you think cheating is justified at times, then I suggest you either never get married, or tell your fiancé in the time leading up to marriage that you believe cheating can be justified and lay out the reasons why (richer, better looking, not getting my ego stroked enough, missed the thrills of courtship, or whatever). Being authentic and honest with yourself will save the people around you heartache. In many European countries, having sex outside of your marriage is common and people expect that as a possibility. This can make it less devastating. In France the infidelity rate for people under 35 is 60% for men and 55% for women. It is part of their culture and an open marriage is the default. At least in the United States it is not part of our culture, hence the devastation.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Zona

[DKT3]

58 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

But that is assuming you are exactly the same, with the same needs, the same wants, the same desires, the same opportunities, the same circumstances... etc.
Sometimes people do not cheat as they just cannot find anyone to cheat with...

So what you're saying is the BS didn't have the opportunity? I know in my case there were plenty of opportunities all throughout our relationship. No it's more then that, many people create the opportunity to cheat it never justs happens. Some time back I talked about a new lady in the workplace,  extremely attractive and I saw the signs that she felt that attraction towards me. I avoided her and kept all dealing with her minimal and professional even when she attempted to veer the conversation towards personal.  I saw the big picture and I dont live in the moment.  

Cheating or not cheating is all about seeing the big picture,  about understanding that it's not a road you want to travel and being honest with yourself.  It's not about your marriage or spouse or even opportunity,  every one can create an opportunity. 

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

every one can create an opportunity. 

I don't believe they can  Technically maybe  but in reality perhaps not.
Not everyone can persuade another person to cheat with them.
Yes YOU believed you had an opportunity with this woman, but did you really?
Had you tried she may have in no uncertain terms cut you dead...

 

[DKT3]

20 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I don't believe they can  Technically maybe  but in reality perhaps not.
Not everyone can persuade another person to cheat with them.
Yes YOU believed you had an opportunity with this woman, but did you really?
Had you tried she may have in no uncertain terms cut you dead...

 

I'm a 40+ year old man with a human behavior educational background and a high attention to detail,  so yes the opportunity was there. Yet, even if you're right, we will never know because I had no desire to find out.

Everyone can create an opportunity.  With things like Ashley Madison its not difficult. 

 

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, Prudence V said:

I used to work as a volunteer counsellor of a used women in a women’s refuge. You’d clearly be shocked by just how common this scenario was IRL. 

Was not aware of this actually, but appreciate you pointing it out.

[heartwhole2]

14 hours ago, mark clemson said:

 

I don't disagree with you (at least not as stated) and I respect your honesty. Most WS have realistic other options that won't necessarily get them killed. However, my rather extreme (but not completely unrealistic) example illustrates a point, that counters what I see as an equally extreme view - that the situation of a marriage has no bearing on decisions a spouse makes, that human needs, "weaknesses", etc don't factor in at all, etc. Your posting history doesn't seem suggest you hold that extreme view.

 

You've used the word "cause" numerous times . . . that a s***ty spouse causes the other to cheat. What did the s***-receiver do to the s***ty spouse to make them s***ty? Surely they have just as much a right to blame their unsavory behavior on someone else "causing" them to be s***ty as the cheater does? The merry-go-round of finger-pointing never ends if other people can cause us to mistreat them.

I don't base my standards of behavior on how others treat me. My standards remain the same. I leave situations that are not to my liking. I don't introduce subterfuge, theft, betrayal, bribery, abuse, or any other behavior that is beneath me into situations where I feel wronged or trapped. I focus on making sure I will not be wronged or trapped any longer. 

[mark clemson]

14 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Mark, if a relationship doesn't work it needs to end. Cheating is shortsighted and momentary.  Then what? Back to a horrible situation. 

A person can have a horrible spouse,  yet no matter how horrible cheating is still the WS choice.  They were not forced because his was horrible.

Valid points.

Side note: I'm actually a little sad that it was your post that I thought of the scenario in response to. I DO NOT have an intention of "harping on you" or anything like that, my point is just to discuss the issues. You have your views and I have mine, and it's certainly ok to differ.

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, Zona said:

If you think cheating is justified at times, then I suggest you either never get married, or tell your fiancé in the time leading up to marriage that you believe cheating can be justified and lay out the reasons why (richer, better looking, not getting my ego stroked enough, missed the thrills of courtship, or whatever). Being authentic and honest with yourself will save the people around you heartache. In many European countries, having sex outside of your marriage is common and people expect that as a possibility. This can make it less devastating. In France the infidelity rate for people under 35 is 60% for men and 55% for women. It is part of their culture and an open marriage is the default. At least in the United States it is not part of our culture, hence the devastation.

Yes, precisely. You can be ethical and have sex outside of your marriage, but not if you trap your spouse in a relationship they think is monogamous under false pretenses. But this would require self-awareness, good communication skills, respect for others, and consistency . . . qualities that would probably have saved you from finding yourself in an affair in the first place.

[mark clemson]

5 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

You've used the word "cause" numerous times . . . that a s***ty spouse causes the other to cheat. What did the s***-receiver do to the s***ty spouse to make them s***ty? Surely they have just as much a right to blame their unsavory behavior on someone else "causing" them to be s***ty as the cheater does? The merry-go-round of finger-pointing never ends if other people can cause us to mistreat them.

Hmmm. Respectfully, that's what I've been trying to be careful to clarify:

 

14 hours ago, mark clemson said:

So what is your choice for this person?

I'm not "blaming" others, even the evil (in this particular case) BH, although I can see how one could interpret it that way. My point is she is in a situation where she can't get her needs met in a normal way. You stated above that "she is the problem in the cheating." What does that actually mean? What is your assessment of cause? The situation as a whole has nothing to do with her decisions or ?

 

[carhill]

On 5/3/2020 at 6:12 PM, DKT3 said:

I believe its flawed logic to think there is always something wrong or missing in a relationship,  that it's the only reason why people cheat. Many people are not wired for monogamy,  others dont value sex and veiw it as just something to do

Each partner is responsible for their perspective and it does happen, not uncommonly, that when perspectives differ, a lack or problem exists for one partner or the other. The other partner might think things are fine. We might think things are fine. Using your polyamory example, if one party is wired for monogamy and the other for polyamory, they may agree to be together but that doesn't change their respective wiring. Also, both parties may agree at one point in time they are both wired for monogamy, then one party or the other changes. I've seen this with friends, not so much with polyamory but sexual preference, in that a couple guy's wives had lesbian affairs and left them and divorced them to be with their affair partner of the same gender. Were they always lesbians? IDK. At some point though they felt something was wrong with the marriage, they were missing something, they lacked something, apparently the touch and love of another female. OTOH, their blindsided husbands thought the marriage was great. Rinse and repeat for other changes.

A typical explanation of one spouse/partner wanting 'more' is similar, besides one explanation that they lied about their polyamorous nature and tricked their monogamous partner into a relationship, they can change from monogamous to polyamorous and, at that point, something lacks in their relationship, something is wrong. Their partner/spouse might think things are great, and we might think the same, but we don't live in the polyamorous partner/spouses' head.

On 5/3/2020 at 6:12 PM, DKT3 said:

I disagree that men cause women to cheat, which is the foundation of your posts. Some take comfort in this ideology because it means that as a man you can control a womans behavior and fidelity by how you treat her.

I didn't follow the thread but, in general, humans have free will and, short of forced coercion, we each freely choose who we share our bodies and minds with. If a woman or a man who's committed to someone has an affair, that's their sole responsibility, not their spouses, not any affair partners, strictly their choice and responsibility. Their spouse is solely responsible for their choices and actions in the marriage, as is any affair partner in an affair. Everyone has choices.

Can people manipulate and be manipulated? Sure! Gaslighting is one form of manipulation, as is pathological lying. Forex, when I was young I met a lovely young lady at a customer and we hit it off great, this long before the internet as social media existed. She never talked about a family, had no pictures, wore no ring (everyone in my demographic who was married wore a ring back then, at least those I knew), bla, bla. A couple months down the road, you know how that goes. Married. Classic example of lying by omission. Should I have asked the question was she married? Yes! That was my mistake. I made the choice not to ask. Did I make her cheat? Did anyone? IMO, no, she had free will and made the choice herself. Turned out she was a serial and had been quite busy for a 22yo. Who was they other guy? Ha, my customer, her boss. Add in to that he was married himself! Man the 80's ran on coke and infidelity I tell ya. 😂

TL:DR? People have free will and are solely responsible for their choices and actions.

[mark clemson]

Ok, so just to close out the scenario thing, given that no viable options were presented for her to meet her needs, I think it's reasonable to conclude the following:

• In some situations, a WS has literally no options other than infidelity to meet their emotional/sexual needs.
• The WS is not "the problem" in those situations, except to the extent that they have normal human needs. The situation is the problem.
• No one is forcing the WS to cheat (except their normal human needs). The WS is still responsible for their actions. They have the option to live long-term without having their needs met.

Given the above, MY view is that cheating is a reasonable choice in that kind of situation, provided the risks taken are minimal. I think that's a reasonable view (though certainly not the only possible one).

I can think of a few other situations where this might apply, e.g. if the BS is in a coma long-term. There are probably specifics that could be argued there as well, but I don't really think it's necessary to work through these as it would clutter up the thread unnecessarily.

I'm going to take a little break from this specific thread to clear my head a bit. I will read responses to the above, but may not post a response for a while. Hope everyone has a nice weekend!

[heartwhole2]

8 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Ok, so just to close out the scenario thing, given that no viable options were presented for her to meet her needs, I think it's reasonable to conclude the following:

• In some situations, a WS has literally no options other than infidelity to meet their emotional/sexual needs.
• The WS is not "the problem" in those situations, except to the extent that they have normal human needs. The situation is the problem.
• No one is forcing the WS to cheat (except their normal human needs). The WS is still responsible for their actions. They have the option to live long-term without having their needs met.

Given the above, MY view is that cheating is a reasonable choice in that kind of situation, provided the risks taken are minimal. I think that's a reasonable view (though certainly not the only possible one).

I can think of a few other situations where this might apply, e.g. if the BS is in a coma long-term. There are probably specifics that could be argued there as well, but I don't really think it's necessary to work through these as it would clutter up the thread unnecessarily.

I'm going to take a little break from this specific thread to clear my head a bit. I will read responses to the above, but may not post a response for a while. Hope everyone has a nice weekend!

What makes cheating wrong is robbing one's spouse of their agency to choose whether or not to remain in a non-monogamous relationship. My husband and I understand that if the other loses their mental faculties or is in a coma, then we would want the other one to have the companionship we can no longer provide. These are the sorts of ethical arrangements and healthy conversations couples can and should have. 
 

[pepperbird]

21 hours ago, mark clemson said:

So in a case where you have a physically abusive man who threatens to murder a woman and the children if she leaves, and she's lonely, miserable, and desperate for some form of relatively healthy affection (relative to her spouse) and she takes of her wedding ring one night and has a ONS with some rando guy while her BS is drunk, she's the problem?

so he threatens to murder her and her kids if she leaves, so instead, she has a one night stand?
that doesn't even make any sense. what does she think will happen if he finds out? He'll thank her?
That's is so bloody selfish of her I don't even have words for what she'd be doing.
maybe Instated of worrying about whether or not she's getting laid one night ( let's be honest, a one night stand isn't about affection, it's about sex) that woman should think about her kids and get the hell out.

[pepperbird]

21 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Correct, although I wouldn't say "absolve". Quite frankly, you're not one of the folks around here who needs such an extreme example to make the point. This thread is about causes for cheating, and some seem to think it can always ever only be the cheater who is the "problem" in a relationship. I think there are folks who are far more interested in preserving that illusion than I am in justifying anything people may do. 

How would you recommend a woman in the situation I described (and we know they're out there) meet her needs?  She should just tough it out and go without love? Bad choice of husband = a life wasted or ?

I'm going to hold off on responding to some of your questions for now, hope that's ok.

Maybe she should worry more about getting her kdis to safety.

[pepperbird]

7 hours ago, Prudence V said:

I used to work as a volunteer counsellor of a used women in a women’s refuge. You’d clearly be shocked by just how common this scenario was IRL. 

In have the same experience both as a volunteer and abused woman.
I NEVER saw one single case of an abused woman having affairs. Not one. All were too busy worrying about how to get out and whether or not hubby was going to use them or their kids as a punching bag than pursuing an affair.

The women who I met who claim to have been "abused" by their husband and then use than as an excuse for an affair have always come to that conclusion after the affair started. Before that, they may have been bored, unhappy, wanting more of whatever, but abused? Nope.

Funny how that changes once OM enters the scene.

Edited May 8, 2020 by pepperbird

[pepperbird]

I think it's the infidelity that has some stuck. The "lurve" factor I guess.

let's say instead of cheating, a man or woman who is unhappy in their marriage decides that they have no other way to deal with their misery than to hit their spouse. Think that;s too far of a stretcth? How about instead he or she starts calling them nasty, four letter names every chance they get, stats stealing money form them, starts breaking their belongings or whatever.

Would we hear the same " they asked for it!" I doubt it.

[pepperbird]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Ok, so just to close out the scenario thing, given that no viable options were presented for her to meet her needs, I think it's reasonable to conclude the following:

• In some situations, a WS has literally no options other than infidelity to meet their emotional/sexual needs.
• The WS is not "the problem" in those situations, except to the extent that they have normal human needs. The situation is the problem.
• No one is forcing the WS to cheat (except their normal human needs). The WS is still responsible for their actions. They have the option to live long-term without having their needs met.

Given the above, MY view is that cheating is a reasonable choice in that kind of situation, provided the risks taken are minimal. I think that's a reasonable view (though certainly not the only possible one).

I can think of a few other situations where this might apply, e.g. if the BS is in a coma long-term. There are probably specifics that could be argued there as well, but I don't really think it's necessary to work through these as it would clutter up the thread unnecessarily.

I'm going to take a little break from this specific thread to clear my head a bit. I will read responses to the above, but may not post a response for a while. Hope everyone has a nice weekend!

It's as if you think cheating is okay, so long as the person doesn't get caught? the tree falling  with no one there to hear it may not make a sound, but it sure leaves a huge hole in the forest.

[JimmyNorth]

5 hours ago, DKT3 said:

every one can create an opportunity. 

Sorry to say this, but Woman in general have WAY MORE opportunities than men. 

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, JimmyNorth said:

Sorry to say this, but Woman in general have WAY MORE opportunities than men. 

No doubt, in general.  But that doesn't change the fact that most men can still find sexual partners married or not. This idea that men arent cheating based on their inability to find a willing woman is not accurate.  

[BaileyB]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

 

• No one is forcing the WS to cheat (except their normal human needs). The WS is still responsible for their actions. They have the option to live long-term without having their needs met.

Given the above, MY view is that cheating is a reasonable choice in that kind of situation, provided the risks taken are minimal. I think that's a reasonable view (though certainly not the only possible one).

Not to beat a dead horse but there is another option besides staying in a stale and loveless marriage - divorce. Sure, one could chose to stay in an unfulfilling marriage - but why? Why are the only two options for you cheat or stay in an unfulfilling marriage? 

Many people in this exact situation divorce and move on to find a new relationship, a loving and fulfilling relationship that will meet their needs. It happens literally, every. single. day.

My view is that cheating in not a reasonable choice to any situation, particularly not when there is another choice that would allow me to keep my integrity and still find happiness/meet my needs. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by BaileyB

[JimmyNorth]

19 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Not to beat a dead horse but there is another option besides staying in a stale and loveless marriage - divorce. Sure, one could chose to stay in an unfulfilling marriage - but why? Why are the only two options for you cheat or stay in an unfulfilling marriage? 

Many people in this exact situation divorce and move on to find a new relationship, a loving and fulfilling relationship that will meet their needs. It happens literally, every. single. day.

My view is that cheating in not a reasonable choice to any situation, particularly not when there is another choice that would allow me to keep my integrity and still find happiness/meet my needs. 

Absolutely! That would be the best way to go about getting out of a marriage. Affairs always end up hurting people all around. The problem with most people, including myself, is that they have other factors that they do not want to interrupt while taking care of their "needs" with the AP. Personally speaking, my affair was a poor way to address my needs. I should have divorced AND THEN started my new relationship instead of hurting multiple women while I was living the double life.

[heartwhole2]

35 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Not to beat a dead horse but there is another option besides staying in a stale and loveless marriage - divorce. Sure, one could chose to stay in an unfulfilling marriage - but why? Why are the only two options for you cheat or stay in an unfulfilling marriage? 

Many people in this exact situation divorce and move on to find a new relationship, a loving and fulfilling relationship that will meet their needs. It happens literally, every. single. day.

My view is that cheating in not a reasonable choice to any situation, particularly not when there is another choice that would allow me to keep my integrity and still find happiness/meet my needs. 

I'm with you. I'm just not going to come around to the "It's OK for me to harm someone I really despise" argument.

Edited May 8, 2020 by heartwhole2