On assigning responsibility to an affair

[merrmeade]

On 5/6/2020 at 8:28 AM, Bittersweetie said:

As someone who cheated, I was 100% responsible for my actions. Looking at it from a personal standpoint...my husband could've been the worst husband ever, but my actions ruined my own personal integrity and respect. I could've handled myself in a much better and healthier way.

I understand that people may have marriages that are have serious issues. My marriage wasn't the strongest at the time of my affair. However I could have made the choice to handle those issues with respect and integrity but I didn't. I let myself down, along with my husband and marriage.

Plus there is the issue that many WS do some kind of mental gymnastics in order to justify their choices, and unless some self-reflection happens, the justifications tend to continue. Like pepperbird said, it's not an easy thing to admit to hurting someone, and some may tell themselves anything in order to avoid that admission. Honestly, me admitting that I made choices that hurt people was a start to my own growth and healing.

And THAT is the long and short of it. Thank you for your honesty. Very succinct but thorough.

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, merrmeade said:

And THAT is the long and short of it. Thank you for your honesty. Very succinct but thorough.

Bittersweetie is a good example of what healthy affair recovery looks like. 

Wish there were more here. What we get here are those who blame the spouse,  thier parents thier jobs, on the fact that it didn't rain the last Sunday in May of 2016. Everything from legitimate causes of stress and anxiety to the totally ridiculous distractions.  They will say it's not black and white, its complicated.  When you start to strip all that away then they attack those who point it out. Anything to not take responsibility for thier actions,  for the chaos and destruction of those actions. 

Its alot simpler to say I messed up and I hurt people,  well I guess not that simple since we're talking about people who are accustom to making unhealthy choices. 

[pepperbird]

On 5/7/2020 at 10:04 AM, Prudence V said:

Sometimes the unhappiness that is caused by the cognitive dissonance of infidelity is wayyyy less than the unhappiness caused by the marriage - so relative to that, it’s a win. 

So being dishonest day after day after day is a "win"?  What the heck kind of a person thinks that way?

 

[pepperbird]

On 5/7/2020 at 3:14 PM, mark clemson said:

I think you make some good points. Very respectfully, I would point out the "replacing vs stealing a phone" analogy has some flaws too. Replacing a phone is easy. As you well know, ending a marriage is not nearly so simply, nor painless, for all involved. Also an old phone is mostly an inconvenience. A difficult spouse, depending on the situation, can be actively problematic and cause issues - again, something you are familiar with.

I'm not saying these women aren't taking fooling risks with the structure of their lives, which they apparently like enough to keep intact. They certainly are. But if spouses were as easy to end things with as phones, we'd live in a completely different world.

and there's the rub.
they may be taking foolish risks, and they are dragging their whole family along with them.

[pepperbird]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:16 PM, mark clemson said:

Ok, and that's reasonable for many folks. For her it = death. So you've chosen divorce leading to death over infidelity. I think she probably would have seen it coming and not tried to divorce, but that's ok, were in a scenario.

I would posit that infidelity would be a more reasonable choice for her. We can agree to disagree.

Do you not think she'd be risking "death" by cheating? what do you think her abusive spouse will do if/when he finds out?

[pepperbird]

On 5/8/2020 at 1:40 PM, DKT3 said:

I'm a 40+ year old man with a human behavior educational background and a high attention to detail,  so yes the opportunity was there. Yet, even if you're right, we will never know because I had no desire to find out.

Everyone can create an opportunity.  With things like Ashley Madison its not difficult. 

 

I don't understand why people don't understand cheating is a choice. One has to actively choose to do it. It's not like breathing.

In the end, those who are in the " the marriage made them do it" camp when it comes to cheating are shooting themselves in the foot. After all, if their behaviour was caused  by someone else, how can they control it? They'll likely cheat again the next time they can't help it.

By accepting responsibility full stop, a person who has cheated puts themselves in the dirver's seat of their life. What they take ownership of, they can control.



 

[DKT3]

2 hours ago, pepperbird said:

By accepting responsibility full stop, a person who has cheated puts themselves in the dirver's seat of their life. What they take ownership of, they can control.



 

This is exactly what many are trying to avoid.  By making it seem like it's out of thier control they don't have to face the fact that they are the problem.

[BaileyB]

A quote I recently read, “Accountability feels like an attack when you are not ready to acknowledge how your behavior harms others.”

[merrmeade]

I took the time to read every page of this thread last night and in the end it was too late to work on a comment. But it was more than that. Discussing the different issues in the context of hypothetical situations just ends up being so many generalizations repeated from whatever perspective you’re used to taking. It’s kind of ridiculous to argue BSs are good and WSs are bad and create examples that take into consideration every element that has been associated with choices to commit infidelity. I mean, like the beaten wife who creeps out in the dark of night to give herself a few hours of stolen tenderness she so justly deserves - and then everybody finds the holes in the example. I mean, it would draw in viewers as the plot of a daytime TV drama but otherwise what’s the point of playing hypothetical God to such pathetic characters? It’s an unlikely set of circumstances contrived around the ethical considerations generally discussed in cases of infidelity with the goal of getting everybody to agree that ok, ok, you’re right: THIS WS gets a moral pass to cheat. Well, hell, she probably deserves one to steal, maim and murder the SOB BS for that matter! It all comes down to political inclination - whether you’re a jurist or a  whether or how you hold any kind of victim who breaks the law accountable. 

To shortcut the argument, infidelity affects human beings with complex life situations and you can’t separate out a few elements arbitrarily for the sake of argument as if we were writing a canon of laws for judging different levels of cheaters. You can’t create a scenario that covers every situation. 

WSs can be tragic characters acting without thought to survive horrendous life circumstances. In my situation, the WS and OW were in laws and each a victim of tragic destiny. Should I not have been hurt? Do you discount - as MANY, maybe most, people in our families and social circles did - the destruction their liaison wreaked on my psyche? Are they given a pass? 

Well, it comes down to me or the WS in the story. I had some culpability for having left my husband alone for months at a time, so people judged that and, therefore, me and extended their empathy to my husband and my sister-in-law. Only my daughter and my niece - literally in all the world - could slice through the clouds of martyrdom that they consciously hid in - within their own minds, too - to escape judgment. 

There simply is no one sweeping generalization anyone can make that exculpates a WS or charges a BS with responsibility for infidelity. To me the two factors that matter are the humility and clarity with which the participants view the actions of the adulterers, especially the adulterers themselves  and especially over the years that follow. This includes the BS. If the BS cannot find the compassion to understand what makes someone sin or falter or make a mistake, then his or her ability to heal, live a full life and model humanity for others is limited. 

It’s really a personal, spiritual question as well as a moral one. “Assigning” responsibility for an affair is just one step. The WS must own his/her actions. The BS must show the capacity to understand and forgive human frailty. It is not judging the sin as a rigid deity or indulging it with exculpatory excuses. The only way I could justify playing God in any situation is to try and empathize. The WS must feel the BSs pain and the BS must understand weakness though not even that can be thrown out as a rule. It’s personal, spiritual growth, and what matters and all you can control is yourself. 

 

 

[understand50]

20 minutes ago, merrmeade said:

I took the time to read every page of this thread last night and in the end it was too late to work on a comment. But it was more than that. Discussing the different issues in the context of hypothetical situations just ends up being so many generalizations repeated from whatever perspective you’re used to taking. It’s kind of ridiculous to argue BSs are good and WSs are bad and create examples that take into consideration every element that has been associated with choices to commit infidelity. I mean, like the beaten wife who creeps out in the dark of night to give herself a few hours of stolen tenderness she so justly deserves - and then everybody finds the holes in the example. I mean, it would draw in viewers as the plot of a daytime TV drama but otherwise what’s the point of playing hypothetical God to such pathetic characters? It’s an unlikely set of circumstances contrived around the ethical considerations generally discussed in cases of infidelity with the goal of getting everybody to agree that ok, ok, you’re right: THIS WS gets a moral pass to cheat. Well, hell, she probably deserves one to steal, maim and murder the SOB BS for that matter! It all comes down to political inclination - whether you’re a jurist or a  whether or how you hold any kind of victim who breaks the law accountable. 

To shortcut the argument, infidelity affects human beings with complex life situations and you can’t separate out a few elements arbitrarily for the sake of argument as if we were writing a canon of laws for judging different levels of cheaters. You can’t create a scenario that covers every situation. 

WSs can be tragic characters acting without thought to survive horrendous life circumstances. In my situation, the WS and OW were in laws and each a victim of tragic destiny. Should I not have been hurt? Do you discount - as MANY, maybe most, people in our families and social circles did - the destruction their liaison wreaked on my psyche? Are they given a pass? 

Well, it comes down to me or the WS in the story. I had some culpability for having left my husband alone for months at a time, so people judged that and, therefore, me and extended their empathy to my husband and my sister-in-law. Only my daughter and my niece - literally in all the world - could slice through the clouds of martyrdom that they consciously hid in - within their own minds, too - to escape judgment. 

There simply is no one sweeping generalization anyone can make that exculpates a WS or charges a BS with responsibility for infidelity. To me the two factors that matter are the humility and clarity with which the participants view the actions of the adulterers, especially the adulterers themselves  and especially over the years that follow. This includes the BS. If the BS cannot find the compassion to understand what makes someone sin or falter or make a mistake, then his or her ability to heal, live a full life and model humanity for others is limited. 

It’s really a personal, spiritual question as well as a moral one. “Assigning” responsibility for an affair is just one step. The WS must own his/her actions. The BS must show the capacity to understand and forgive human frailty. It is not judging the sin as a rigid deity or indulging it with exculpatory excuses. The only way I could justify playing God in any situation is to try and empathize. The WS must feel the BSs pain and the BS must understand weakness though not even that can be thrown out as a rule. It’s personal, spiritual growth, and what matters and all you can control is yourself. 

 

 

Merrmeade, makes a good point and one that has been made here many times.  Both spouses are responsible for the state of the marriage.  The spouse that cheats, is responsible for their actions.  When blame is assigned, the one who had the affair should own it all.  OK, there can be one  exception, Rape, but that is the only one I can think of.  In order to reconcile, the WS much show and really feel remorse, or make moves to assure that the BS feels that they are safe and can continue with the  marriage.   I will not say that the WS must be a new saint, because we have had several  successful reconciliations, with out the WS being completely on board and self aware to know just what pain they have caused the BS.  I would say at the very least, the WS must stop cheating, give all the details the WS desires, and work to improve their part of the marriage.

There are several threads here that go into detail just what a BS should do from several different perspectives, and the internet is full of advise, some good, some not so good. I once started a thread on what responsibilities the BS had in reconciliation.    The link is here.  Relationships are a two way street, and both must be will to do the things needed to stay together.  Myself, I generally feel that spouses should at least try and see if they can reconcile.  I think in the long run, especially with children involved, it is the better option.  I do note, there are times when divorce is the only option.  It was not in my case.

https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/525392-there-are-responsibilities-for-a-bs-in-reconciliation/

[Bittersweetie]

41 minutes ago, merrmeade said:

It’s really a personal, spiritual question as well as a moral one. “Assigning” responsibility for an affair is just one step. The WS must own his/her actions. The BS must show the capacity to understand and forgive human frailty. It is not judging the sin as a rigid deity or indulging it with exculpatory excuses. The only way I could justify playing God in any situation is to try and empathize. The WS must feel the BSs pain and the BS must understand weakness though not even that can be thrown out as a rule. It’s personal, spiritual growth, and what matters and all you can control is yourself. 

This reminds me of a time during a conversation with my H when I said to him, "You must hate me." And he said, "No. I don't hate you. But I do hate the person who did these things." And it made me understand that while the person who made those hurtful choices was me, I don't have to continue to be that same person. And that realization led to more growth and change in myself and now I see what I did as a part of me, but not all of me. 

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, merrmeade said:

 WSs can be tragic characters acting without thought to survive horrendous life circumstances. In my situation, the WS and OW were in laws and each a victim of tragic destiny. Should I not have been hurt? Do you discount - as MANY, maybe most, people in our families and social circles did - the destruction their liaison wreaked on my psyche? Are they given a pass?

I found your post confusing.

You seem to be reacting in part to my scenario and in part to your own situation. While I tend to try to be compassionate around here, my thought experiment was just that, a thought experiment. It wasn't "playing God to pathetic characters" any more than your reaction is going on about emotional distress you don't seem to have fully gotten past. Or any more than any novelist or other storyteller. And I'd point out that the world has plenty of actual "pathetic characters" of various types in it.

You seem to see my point but then also to react negatively. I'd give them a pass to cheat if they couldn't get away from the marriage. The more logical thing to do is to end the marriage, but I specifically brought out a situation where that wasn't possible.

WS don't act without thought, unless it's a drunken one night stand or similar. I think most folks around here recognize that.

"Exculpation" is very much in the eye of the beholder. I've seen plenty of posts around here from what I think is a small but vocal minority who seem to think that every WS is some sort of demon-spawn and every BS some sort of noble hero. You're clearly not one of them, but the fact that you were a BS is no reason to bash me and my thought experiment post.

Edited June 20, 2020 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

8 hours ago, pepperbird said:

Do you not think she'd be risking "death" by cheating? what do you think her abusive spouse will do if/when he finds out?

There was some very minimal risk of that, I mentioned that somewhere in the discussion as it was brought up.

[DKT3]

Mark, unfortunately,  it's not minimal.  2/3 of women murdered in the US are murdered by a sexual partner,  past or present. 

I've also read stories here were I thought,  yes I get why they cheated the BS should have knew something was coming. 

[merrmeade]

9 hours ago, mark clemson said:

I found your post confusing.

You seem to be reacting in part to my scenario and in part to your own situation. While I tend to try to be compassionate around here, my thought experiment was just that, a thought experiment. It wasn't "playing God to pathetic characters" any more than your reaction is going on about emotional distress you don't seem to have fully gotten past. Or any more than any novelist or other storyteller. And I'd point out that the world has plenty of actual "pathetic characters" of various types in it.

You seem to see my point but then also to react negatively. I'd give them a pass to cheat if they couldn't get away from the marriage. The more logical thing to do is to end the marriage, but I specifically brought out a situation where that wasn't possible.

WS don't act without thought, unless it's a drunken one night stand or similar. I think most folks around here recognize that.

"Exculpation" is very much in the eye of the beholder. I've seen plenty of posts around here from what I think is a small but vocal minority who seem to think that every WS is some sort of demon-spawn and every BS some sort of noble hero. You're clearly not one of them, but the fact that you were a BS is no reason to bash me and my thought experiment post.

Mark, I guess I did kind of bash your thought experiment post, and I can see how you might take that personally. It’s good you called it. I really didn’t think about the fact that I pretty much dropped an anvil on a lively “thought experiment” that people were hitting back and forth in healthy debate. Understand50, Bittersweetie and the OP, DKT3, picked the ball back up and even provided some transition from my remarks. (Thanks, guys.) I apologize for the heavy-handed delivery, but it’s definitely not personal. The others know me though I haven’t been posting regularly in so long. DKT3 was already here when I first posted in 2012, and I learned a lot from him and Lovin’ during those painful early years. I’m sure all the others remember my story. 

There’s nothing wrong with thought experiments though many BSs who come here are suffering deeply and need intense, direct dialogue to get through the day. Those posts will have a very different tone from theoretical discussions about whose fault it is. That’s not to say every thread has to be intense, but I couldn’t see the point of the hypothetical constructs. But I do actually. At 17, I wrote a paper using deductive logic to endorse premarital sex if contraceptions are used and everyone is emotionally mature. Writing about premarital sex as a virgin maybe didn’t make sense but gave a little bit of preparation when the time came. Maybe it’s the same for conversations about infidelity in the abstract? 

As far as the OP’s question goes, I’ll give my opinion more simply: The responsibility for an affair is always on the WS. Infidelity is a choice. Any discussion after that is secondary, such as whether a bad marriage justifies straying. That fact has to be established for the BS to begin to heal. The final stage of healing, however, is for the BS to gain compassion for the weakness of the human condition or forgiveness for the WS’s faults that led to the affair. It’s a personal journey for the BS to get there and my belief is that no amount of “shoulds’ can speed it up. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by merrmeade

[elaine567]

20 hours ago, pepperbird said:

So being dishonest day after day after day is a "win"?  What the heck kind of a person thinks that way?

A person in a very unhappy marriage, where living a lie is better than facing up to the reality of their situation.
Plenty people live in fantasy, as their real life is too tough to bear.
Many shore up their marriages by having affairs, the affair makes their marriages more bearable.

[pepperbird]

6 hours ago, merrmeade said:

Mark, I guess I did kind of bash your thought experiment post, and I can see how you might take that personally. It’s good you called it. I really didn’t think about the fact that I pretty much dropped an anvil on a lively “thought experiment” that people were hitting back and forth in healthy debate. Understand50, Bittersweetie and the OP, DKT3, picked the ball back up and even provided some transition from my remarks. (Thanks, guys.) I apologize for the heavy-handed delivery, but it’s definitely not personal. The others know me though I haven’t been posting regularly in so long. DKT3 was already here when I first posted in 2012, and I learned a lot from him and Lovin’ during those painful early years. I’m sure all the others remember my story. 

There’s nothing wrong with thought experiments though many BSs who come here are suffering deeply and need intense, direct dialogue to get through the day. Those posts will have a very different tone from theoretical discussions about whose fault it is. That’s not to say every thread has to be intense, but I couldn’t see the point of the hypothetical constructs. But I do actually. At 17, I wrote a paper using deductive logic to endorse premarital sex if contraceptions are used and everyone is emotionally mature. Writing about premarital sex as a virgin maybe didn’t make sense but gave a little bit of preparation when the time came. Maybe it’s the same for conversations about infidelity in the abstract? 

As far as the OP’s question goes, I’ll give my opinion more simply: The responsibility for an affair is always on the WS. Infidelity is a choice. Any discussion after that is secondary, such as whether a bad marriage justifies straying. That fact has to be established for the BS to begin to heal. The final stage of healing, however, is for the BS to gain compassion for the weakness of the human condition or forgiveness for the WS’s faults that led to the affair. It’s a personal journey for the BS to get there and my belief is that no amount of “shoulds’ can speed it up. 

maybe a request can be made to switch this thread the the general section, as it's more a discussion of generalizations and not a specific situation

[Prudence V]

On 6/20/2020 at 2:22 PM, pepperbird said:

In the end, those who are in the " the marriage made them do it" camp when it comes to cheating are shooting themselves in the foot. After all, if their behaviour was caused  by someone else, how can they control it? They'll likely cheat again the next time they can't help it.


 

I’ve not seen anyone posting that someone was forced to engage in infidelity, though I have seen some people posting that, in certain circumstances, an argument could be made that someone was justified in doing so / could be excused for doing so / could be understood, and empathised with, form doing so - which is a very different thing. 

[pepperbird]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

A person in a very unhappy marriage, where living a lie is better than facing up to the reality of their situation.
Plenty people live in fantasy, as their real life is too tough to bear.
Many shore up their marriages by having affairs, the affair makes their marriages more bearable.

Not referring to you in particular, always find it interesting how some will say they are against affairs, but they will find lots of reasons to excuse them.

It may be black and white thinking to say if something is wrong, it's just wrong, but you know what? I'm okay with that. I'd rather live my life with honesty and integrity. I'm  not saying that because I think I'm better and more moral than anyone else, just that I know what works for me. I can 't live with continued dishonesty with others and even  more, myelf.I also know the pain infidelity can cause. Most cheaters aren't bad or cruel people, they're just trying to live their life. The problem is, when  they're married and have  a family, their choices affect other people.

I've had a WS. I've also been severely abused by a boyfriend, so much so I ended up in the hospital. The affair hurt more than the physical beating. I doubt anyone would say I deserved to be beat up by him. No one would say
"well, you did x, y and Z so it's your fault you got hit" but the affair? A very different story.

[pepperbird]

7 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

I’ve not seen anyone posting that someone was forced to engage in infidelity, though I have seen some people posting that, in certain circumstances, an argument could be made that someone was justified in doing so / could be excused for doing so / could be understood, and empathised with, form doing so - which is a very different thing. 

any time someone has to work so hard to justify hurtful behaviour, I always wonder why.
The forced part? Time after time after time one sees posts by men and women who claim they are trapped and the only way they can get any enjoyment is to cheat. Never mind what damage it causes, as long as they get theirs, it's all good.

Look, I get it. We don't see eye to eye on this. You think infidelity is no big deal, but I do. That's okay. I just enjoy the discussion. We may not agree, but I do appreciate your responses. They're always food for thought.

[Zona]

Ignoring everything but the practical aspects of it, what is the chance that having an affair (usually with another married person) is going to improve your life in the long term? It's almost guaranteed to make you infinitely more miserable, and the exceptions are rare.

[understand50]

21 hours ago, Zona said:

Ignoring everything but the practical aspects of it, what is the chance that having an affair (usually with another married person) is going to improve your life in the long term? It's almost guaranteed to make you infinitely more miserable, and the exceptions are rare.

Zona, Good point.  If the cheating spouse, actually sat down and thought thing though, there would be less cheating.  I think most everyone gets caught up with the moment, and think they will not get caught.  I do not think there is much thinking going on as they are in the act of getting laid.  Popular Society, places a premium on getting, and having sex.

It is only afterwards, that one must pay the consequences.  These can be a bitch.  Reading here, I always been interested in the story, where the WS gets to the point of "we had sex".  How did it lead to having sex?  At what point, did you decide to abandon your vows and break them?   Unless, you were under duress, it is all on the cheating spouse.

 

[mark clemson]

@merrmeade fair enough, no worries...

[understand50]

Another thought. 

No responsibility equals no reconciliation.

[mark clemson]

That seems generally accurate to me.

If there was never a Dday, there's nothing much to reconcile from, maybe just some unexplained fluctuations in the spouse's behaviors/demeanor, etc (and sometimes probably not even that, depending on the specific WS).

If there's been a Dday and the affair is "all your fault" (which is ridiculous) then IMO one can't reasonably expect a BS to want to reconcile, and even if they do the WS can't be trusted as their not acknowledging their role in the decision making process.

Assuming there was genuine unhappiness in the marriage, part of that might be on the BS, depending on the specific BS and their behaviors, etc, (e.g. they were a drunk as one of many possible examples) but it's generally going to be on the WS's that they didn't choose to work on the marriage/their unhappiness and instead decided to cheat. (And no doubt the WS wasn't perfect either, no one is.)

The WS might feel that cheating was preferable to leaving, but it was their choice to not address the prospect of leaving, and it's unlikely the BS would prefer to be cheated on rather than an honest divorce or the option of opening the marriage/an "arrangement" for example if economics is an issue. They might not like it, but least that stuff is above the table.

There are probably corner cases/odd situations, but generally that's my sense of it.