On assigning responsibility to an affair

[Zona]

On 6/21/2020 at 2:22 AM, elaine567 said:

Many shore up their marriages by having affairs, the affair makes their marriages more bearable.

After having read the train wreck stories in the OW/OM forum, you still think that having an affair improves your marriage and your life in general?? That's just not reality.

My wife's affair sure didn't improve our marriage nor her level of happiness. She feels shame, remorse and embarrassment virtually all the time.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Zona

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, Zona said:

My wife's affair sure didn't improve our marriage nor her level of happiness. She feels shame, remorse and embarrassment virtually all the time.

Now she does. How about during her affair?

[schlumpy]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Now she does. How about during her affair?

Since he can't read her mind (wouldn't that be useful talent?) he will just have to use his best judgement as to her sincerity.

I know I said reading minds would be a useful talent but would it?

There is a scenario where if we could read each minds, we would not be able to stand being in the same room with each other to the point where the human race would cease to exist.

[elaine567]

6 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I know I said reading minds would be a useful talent but would it?

One would need a very thick skin I would guess.
Some people say about their pets "If only he/she could talk" but maybe that may not be a great idea either... 

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

One would need a very thick skin I would guess.
Some people say about their pets "If only he/she could talk" but maybe that may not be a great idea either... 

Some pets do. I once hear a story, but I have no idea if it's true. A man had a parrot, and it started saying things like "hi Jim" and that sort of thing. It also learned to imitate some other sounds that were a lot more intimate.

The owner asked his wife who Jim was, and she said she had no idea. After a bit of investigating, he found out his wife had been inviting her OM Jim over, and the parrot was repeating what it would hear.

The wife got turfed out, but sadly do did the parrot. The guy said he felt terrible about doing that, but he couldn't stand hearing the bird repeat these things so he had to re -home with a friend of his.

I feel bad for the bird. They bond so much with their human companions, but this one had a "big beak" and let the cat out of the bag without even knowing it.

 

[Zona]

9 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Now she does. How about during her affair?

I am assuming you have never had an issue with infidelity otherwise you wouldn't ask that question. It takes WW's a while to get their heads out of their rear ends, so I'm sure she enjoyed it at first, but it was all fantasy as her AP was a big-time liar.

[elaine567]

5 hours ago, Zona said:

I'm sure she enjoyed it at first,

But that is what I meant by an affair shoring up what is perceived by them to be an unhappy marriage.
Some if they don't get caught and the affair is meeting their needs will continue in the affair as it makes them overall happier.
 

[Blind-Sided]

OK... read through most of this... but I'm just going to cut to the chase, and throw out my 2 cents.......

This is a very black and white question.  There is ZERO gray in this.  So... the person who cheated.... is 100% A CHEATER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Sure, you can make every argument about "He/She drove me to this"... "I felt alone"... "My life was empty"..... bla, bla, bla....... it's all a total load of BS, and it's just away for the cheater to elevate their guilt.    If the WS felt any of that... then just separate from your partner... or better yet, talk to your partner about the problems !!!

In my life... I've been cheated on... and I can tell you... it really sucks.  But because of my morals... I've never cheated on anyone. Not even emotionally.   I had a GF of 5 years in my younger life cheat... and to this day it still stings.  My exW turned into a cheater... but by the time I found out she had "A friend"... I really didn't even care because of the depth of the lies that got back to me, and the anguish she put me and her daughters through.  But, regardless if I cared or not... she is still a cheater in the eyes of God. (Found out about the friend before any papers were filed) Heck... I think it's one of the reasons my oldest doesn't want to be with her mother... she tried to introduce him way too early. 

So, there it is... we are all adults, and know what cheating is.  There is just no excuse for it because it ultimately hurts everyone. 

And finally... there is no need to "Assign Responsibility" to the A, because the person who is the WS is 100% at fault regardless of what the BS may or may not have done. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Blind-Sided

[mark clemson]

Indeed, an abusive and controlling BS who will not allow the WS to leave an unhappy marriage does not cause the WS to cheat.They just caused all the other problems. The decision to cheat was the WS's alone.

It's just that the decision to cheat is completely understandable in that context to a reasonable person IMO. As you say, we're all adults here.

But yes, you are correct - the cheating itself is all on the 'immoral" WS.

[DKT3]

No one can force you to stay married.  People stay in bad relationships because there is still some value in it for them. Healthy or unhealthy,  they still value it. 

While I agree that some people who cheat it comes as no surprise.  I recall a BW posting and midway through her thread she stated that they hadn't had sex in 6 or 7 years. Someone ask why, she responded he stopped asking for it. So after a few years of being rejected he stopped even trying to have sex with her, yet she was shocked to find out he was sleeping with another woman...really? It still 100% on him, but should she have been shocked? I think many would think wrong, but I get it.

[Zona]

4 hours ago, DKT3 said:

No one can force you to stay married.  People stay in bad relationships because there is still some value in it for them. Healthy or unhealthy,  they still value it. 

While I agree that some people who cheat it comes as no surprise.  I recall a BW posting and midway through her thread she stated that they hadn't had sex in 6 or 7 years. Someone ask why, she responded he stopped asking for it. So after a few years of being rejected he stopped even trying to have sex with her, yet she was shocked to find out he was sleeping with another woman...really? It still 100% on him, but should she have been shocked? I think many would think wrong, but I get it.

Mismatched libidos', especially to that extreme, has been the demise of many marriages. You hear all the time about women who lose all interest in having sex with their husband.

Still though, he could have asked for a hall pass, or even an amicable divorce. Cheating is never justified.

[DKT3]

16 hours ago, elaine567 said:

But that is what I meant by an affair shoring up what is perceived by them to be an unhappy marriage.
Some if they don't get caught and the affair is meeting their needs will continue in the affair as it makes them overall happier.
 

I don't think this is common.  I dont believe many people in affairs are "happier" overall because they are having an affair.  

We can all agree that not all BS are great people and not all WS are terrible people.  I know personally my wife is and always has been a better person than me.  Like I said sometimes an affair shouldn't be a shocker they are still always wrong. I believe that even if happy with or because of an affair,  there is still conflict internally and unhappiness because of the affair.  

My wife told me she felt stuck because she knew the AP was the only person in her life she could talk to about how she felt, and of course he would say it's ok, they just dont understand you the way I do. Positive reinforcement of a negative situation,  never take how important that is to people in affairs.  They know its wrong and no one wants to feel like crap about themselves.  I believe that keeps alot of affairs going. Happiness??  Maybe in the beginning.  Even if they end up with the AP. Overall?? Rarely. 

[merrmeade]

On 6/25/2020 at 7:29 AM, Blind-Sided said:

This is a very black and white question.  There is ZERO gray in this.  So... the person who cheated.... is 100% A CHEATER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Sure, you can make every argument about "He/She drove me to this"... "I felt alone"... "My life was empty"..... bla, bla, bla....... it's all a total load of BS, and it's just away for the cheater to elevate their guilt.   

So, there it is... we are all adults, and know what cheating is.  There is just no excuse for it because it ultimately hurts everyone. 

And finally... there is no need to "Assign Responsibility" to the A, because the person who is the WS is 100% at fault regardless of what the BS may or may not have done. 

This shift to the gray area is very much the cheater’s comfort zone, whether it’s a question of taking responsibility or excusing some part of it. The excuse is the first door that opens to an affair and the last door that’s closed when accepting responsibility after - whether it’s “We’re just friends” in the beginning or “My life was empty” at the end.

Blind-sided’s explanation reminded me of this one time when I felt my white hot rage sear everything into one perfect scorching. My husband had said to me before going to work one day about 2-1/2 months after Dday: “We were just friends - mostly.”  I was shocked but then gathered my outrage into an email response - below:

“Wait a minute. You did it again:

 

‘We were just friends - mostly,’ you said this morning.

WTF! You can still say this to me - now? You still think this?

Let's have a little review:

If [I was] not part of it 100%, it was 100% wrong. Period. 

Anything you had to hide from anyone, any question you could not answer about where, when, how much or how you saw each other or talked to each other - if you evaded, avoided or omitted, it was wrong. 100% wrong.

Your need to evade, avoid, omit? Or worse, saying you evaded, etc. because I and others would be "uncomfortable" with it? This was your own signal that it was wrong which you both chose to ignore.

Even if you think you can justify having an opposite sex friendship outside of your marriage, what about the other part? The leftover after "mostly"? That part - however itty bitty - cancels out the "mostly" and does so 100%. Which is why prudent people have boundaries. Social taboos. Rules. Mores. Norms. No one is above them. Circumstances do not change this. There can be no "mostly."

Do you really not get it or do you just forget your lines sometimes?

Do me this favor at least: Try to remember not to insult me again by using the word "friend" in relation to your history with her - ever. That was the wrong answer in June. It was the wrong answer today. It will always be the wrong answer.

 - and that is why I say I still have trouble trusting you. What will you do about it?”

Edited June 27, 2020 by merrmeade

[schlumpy]

You should rent out that steel clad willpower you possess Merrmeade. It would benefit a lot of people on this forum by keeping them safe.

[elaine567]

On 6/25/2020 at 6:21 PM, DKT3 said:

  I recall a BW posting and midway through her thread she stated that they hadn't had sex in 6 or 7 years. Someone ask why, she responded he stopped asking for it. So after a few years of being rejected he stopped even trying to have sex with her, yet she was shocked to find out he was sleeping with another woman...really? It still 100% on him, but should she have been shocked? I think many would think wrong, but I get it.

The bit in bold is the bit YOU added, that was your assumption. She may have given him sex every time he asked. Some marriages are arranged like that. 
He may have stopped asking as he was getting it elsewhere...

[merrmeade]

19 hours ago, schlumpy said:

You should rent out that steel clad willpower you possess Merrmeade. It would benefit a lot of people on this forum by keeping them safe.

Well, this is embarrassing but you s8not really. Whether you’re being facetious or you really mean it, it should’ve been clear that I wasn’t bragging or patting myself on the back. Just showing solidarity with Blind-sided. Besides, writing that message in an email, rather than letting him have it in person, was not power of will or anything else. Besides, willpower clad in whatever wouldn’t help a BS as clueless and in shock as I’d been. If you look closely at the circumstances - writing an email rather than saying it person - it wasn’t even brave. But nevermind any of that. It was incredibly empowering to articulate it so precisely. My words were the truth and set me free for a tiny window of time, but they hardly rectified the paind and damage already wrought. It was the truth and so enough at that moment. That’s all.

Edited June 28, 2020 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

10 characters.

Edited June 28, 2020 by merrmeade

[OrdinaryDude]

The blame for infidelity ALWAYS falls at the feet of the cheater, zero exceptions.

 

Bad relationships, marriages, childhood trauma, etc are never acceptable reasons or excuses.

 

If your life or marriage is so bad, you need to change your situation through divorce, therapy, support networks, etc, but the first thing to do is get yourself well...physically, mentally, emotionally...before engaging in another relationship, both you and you perspective partner deserve that.

[mark clemson]

The decision to cheat is always made by the cheater. Since it involves deception, it's always unethical. Those are true statements. The "blame" is indeed always on them for their actions.

"Acceptable", "exculpation" - these are subjective views.

Obviously lots of APs find whatever reasons may be given as acceptable. I suppose in some cases it's as little as "I feel like it".

If the WS says to the BS I did it because _____ and the BS says "ok I forgive you" - that reason is apparently "acceptable" to them. I'm not sure how often that actually happens, but perhaps it does sometimes, dunno. We get a sufficient number of posts from BSs who appear a little too ready to forgive and forget rather than face divorce for me to think it perhaps does.

Taking this away from an abuse or unhappy marriage situation for a moment, the assumption that there is something "wrong" with the WS is an odd one as well. People make unethical choices all the time. Go talk to your auto mechanic, your banker, your doctor who ordered unnecessary tests, etc. Maybe the WS is perfectly fine, but simply shouldn't be married. Their personal morals make them poorly suited for marriage.

[merrmeade]

So I’m going to say something controversial about “assigning responsibility to an affair.“ I’d never have agreed during my 5-year recovery and have only gradually realized this is what I think now. First of all, I’ll just say I think it’s only a question beCAUSE of the BS’s suffering. Now, that I don’t suffer - I just get mad every once in a while - I can be objective, but as long as there’s a victim - and the BS is the victim - there’s a discussion. 

Now, what if the BS figured out right away? What if s/he recognized the first lie, called it and tolerated no hedging? Or better than that, what if the would-be BS recognized and stopped the extramarital relationship before it even got past ‘go’ - when it’s still inappropriate friendliness, sharing of confidences, flirting, etc.? Then, there would be no affair, right? 

So I remember all those giveaways and discomforts - being lied to, gaslighted, seeing uncomfortable intimacy - AND I DIDN’T DO ANYTHING. Now, in my own behalf I’ll say that I wasn’t used to any of that. I’d never been around it. My parents didn’t do it nor my brothers. I didn’t lie. I assumed that my husband was like me and had my values - ah, but even there is a disconnect. Something is wrong with a marriage if you don’t know what your spouse’s values are. I should have demanded that much intimacy or gotten out and THAT was the case FROM THE BEGINNING. So I’ll step back even further. What if I had learned much earlier to listen to my gut? To take seriously my feeling that something is wrong and not let it go until I figure it out? What if I’d been able to do that and figured out that my husband wasn’t ever honest with me and never shared himself deeply with me, with himself or anyone else? What if I’d been honest with myself that this was not what trust and true intimacy look like? Well, I would have demanded that we get it right. And one last question: What if I’d demanded that we get it right and if we didn’t, had the courage to put a stop to the effort and the marriage? 

But I didn’t/couldn’t do any of those things, and as a result let myself be lied to and cheated on, allowed living without real loving and told myself a lot of lies. 

So I’m not excusing my husband, but I am blaming myself for not locking the doors and getting robbed. I can never be cheated on again because I’m an expert. It’s that simple. I also demand satisfaction and honesty. I value myself and don’t put up with being devalued. I call inappropriate when I see it. Liars can’t sustain their hypocrisy around me. 

I don’t know what you call that, but maybe it’s not a question of responsibility. Maybe it’s personal development, wisdom, experience, learning about fire by being burned. If it’s not possible for an affair to happen, then there’s no one to blame. That tree did not fall and if it does, you can be sure I’ll hear it and walk away. 

[DKT3]

I get what you're saying,  the difficulty in this is some people are really good at hiding.  Also we may notice things yet not really understand it, or completely recognize it as bad behavior.  

In my case I always recognized my wife was selfish, arrogant and spoiled,  hell I even enabled her behavior, liked it about her.  I know those of you who read her posts didn't see that,  maturity and life has humbled her a lot. I didn't really see it playing out the way it did.

[merrmeade]

6 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

I get what you're saying,  the difficulty in this is some people are really good at hiding.  Also we may notice things yet not really understand it, or completely recognize it as bad behavior.  

In my case I always recognized my wife was selfish, arrogant and spoiled,  hell I even enabled her behavior, liked it about her.  I know those of you who read her posts didn't see that,  maturity and life has humbled her a lot. I didn't really see it playing out the way it did.

Yeah, I thought of that but figured you’d catch it! Like you said more or less, it takes a big dose of entitlement and to have an affair—build the network of lies, plan the meetings plus all that work getting the other person to desire you. It’s a select set of mental skills. I’ve always thought maybe affairs could be the gateway to bigger crime. 

I was definitely in the category of “may notice things yet not really understand.” I credit LS with teaching me the range of behaviors that characterize the affair experience on both sides. Has anyone figured out a way to use this skill in a CV?

[DKT3]

CV=Resume 

They have figured it out.

[mark clemson]

Most people know what con men are, know intellectually about them, and also that they shouldn't trust anyone too much or put all their eggs in one basket. And yet people get conned out of large amounts of money all the time.

Catholic priests molested the children of the parishioners for decades until finally the victims were believed, the patterns of abuse were recognized, people really started probing what was going on.

There is no doubt some level of denial, that's actually quite common I suspect. But I don't think it makes too much sense to blame one's own naiveté (at least not too much). I think the reality is people simply aren't particularly good at recognizing deceptions (of various kinds).

I suspect we've probably evolved to be pretty good at deceiving each other. That's no doubt an important survival skill when push really comes to shove. You might have noticed many people are naturally quite good at imitating other's accents. Why do you suppose that might be? One might be able to sneak by, pretend they're not one of the oppressed group being murdered long enough to escape the situation, etc.

All those parents should have known their kids were being molested. The evidence should have been taken much more seriously. Most folks "just couldn't believe it."

By all means be as keen and deductive as you feel is necessary for your situation. That's certainly wise IMO. But - human nature is what it is.

Edited July 2, 2020 by mark clemson

[DKT3]

@mark clemsonwe are all adapt at putting the face forward that is most advantageous to any particular situation. Not so long ago we had a topic about revealing you sexual past.  For the most part women say don't.  Why? Because history has taught them most men simply don't accept it.  Question is, if he won't accept why date him? Why would you mislead someone into something that they would otherwise not choose for themselves. 

This is what most cheaters do, they hide right in front of you. Put on a false face because history has taught them it wont be accepted. 

Not many people have affairs out in the open, they hide, they lie, they mislead.  Then when caught they blame. If what they were doing was justifiable why do all that? Why not just say "you did X Y AND Z so I'm going to start dating someone else,  don't worry I want to stay married" that is a fair consequence right?  After all if I wreaked your car a fair consequence is paying for the damage, even if it's your fault.