On assigning responsibility to an affair

[mark clemson]

I think these are accurate points. Most people of course wouldn't accept "I'm unhappy and so am going to unilaterally open the marriage."

At the risk of generalizing, they don't want to deal with ending the marriage even though they're (in some cases) unhappy with it. The AP is something of a band-aid and way to either feel better or have "extra". So, yes, cake-eating is an accurate description in most cases.

I do think there's cases where people are genuinely deeply unhappy but feel like they can't or shouldn't leave for some reason. But I think those are pretty much corner cases, such as my thing about the abused wife above. At least from an outside looking in perspective. Maybe I'm wrong about that dunno.

[merrmeade]

12 hours ago, DKT3 said:

This is what most cheaters do, they hide right in front of you. Put on a false face because history has taught them it wont be accepted. 

Not many people have affairs out in the open, they hide, they lie, they mislead.  Then when caught they blame. If what they were doing was justifiable why do all that? Why not just say "you did X Y AND Z so I'm going to start dating someone else,  don't worry I want to stay married" that is a fair consequence right?  After all if I wreaked your car a fair consequence is paying for the damage, even if it's your fault.

Yes, why not indeed. Nevertheless, the biggest shock at first IS the deception—finding out that your partner has been lying to you. You don’t think at the time, “Of course he would lie about having sex with someone else, so nevermind the dishonesty.”  

But this discussion is a dispassionate examination of affair accountability. Such objectivity is possible in time because of understanding. When everything makes sense—who did what, when, how the affair started and continued, how the WS rationalized his/her actions, etc.—it’s possible to gain the understanding essential for healing and forgiveness.

Edited July 2, 2020 by merrmeade

[Prudence V]

On 6/25/2020 at 6:21 PM, DKT3 said:

No one can force you to stay married. 

Except the U.K. government. The last sitting of parliament was supposed to consider updating the legislation that forces an unhappily married spouse to stay married for five years if their spouse objects (two years if they don’t), in marriages that don’t feature infidelity or “unreasonable behaviour”. In civilised countries, marriages can be ended by one partner at any time because of “irreconcilable differences”, and no one is forced to stay married. 

[Prudence V]

18 hours ago, merrmeade said:

So I’m not excusing my husband, but I am blaming myself for not locking the doors and getting robbed. I can never be cheated on again because I’m an expert. It’s that simple. I also demand satisfaction and honesty. I value myself and don’t put up with being devalued. I call inappropriate when I see it. Liars can’t sustain their hypocrisy around me. 

I think this is how all partners in all relationships should be. Demand, and get - or walk away. @merrmeade, we’re not often in agreement on many things but this post is an excellent example of why you’ve always been one of my favourite posters. 

[DKT3]

26 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

Except the U.K. government. The last sitting of parliament was supposed to consider updating the legislation that forces an unhappily married spouse to stay married for five years if their spouse objects (two years if they don’t), in marriages that don’t feature infidelity or “unreasonable behaviour”. In civilised countries, marriages can be ended by one partner at any time because of “irreconcilable differences”, and no one is forced to stay married. 

Most places dont allow quick divorce because people often act irrationally in anger. It's not forcing you because you can walk away,  you just have to wait legally. 

[mark clemson]

5 years is a long time to be stuck at the whim of an unhappy Ex though.

This is perhaps cutting grass that hasn't actually grown yet, but my thought would be that "affairs" occurring well into this extended waiting period shouldn't "count" as such if the exiting partner has made it clear they've moved on. Being married would be pretty much a legal technicality in a case like that IMO.

[merrmeade]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

5 years is a long time to be stuck at the whim of an unhappy Ex though.

This is perhaps cutting grass that hasn't actually grown yet, but my thought would be that "affairs" occurring well into this extended waiting period shouldn't "count" as such if the exiting partner has made it clear they've moved on. Being married would be pretty much a legal technicality in a case like that IMO.

Well, of all the theoretical situations posed since this thread started, I can finally agree. (ok just removed a slightly sarcastic rant.)

I mean, there are behavioral expectations from society and then there are demonstrations of commitment between individuals. Wrong is wrong because an action violates your personal ethics OR another person’s dignity , but you just can’t make it so for everyone. I mean, don’t get me wrong. Lord knows, I did it myself in various forms and still have a zero-tolerance attitude toward friendliness that slides into flirting with someone not your spouse and information-sharing that shape-shifts into keeping secrets. A complete purist as in you just don’t do it. Period. Not even a little ever. Zero. Nada. But passing judgment on others who make such mistakes, nope. It’s theirs. Fidelity is only for self-starters and springs from personal integrity. Otherwise, it’s vulnerable.

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by merrmeade
trying to be nice

[mark clemson]

Yes at a certain point it doesn't make sense to hold a person to a marriage commitment that they really have simply moved on from. There are some Ex's that for whatever reasons try to play spoiler as well, rather than letting the other person move on easily. It just postpones the inevitable IMO.

[DKT3]

29 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Yes at a certain point it doesn't make sense to hold a person to a marriage commitment that they really have simply moved on from. There are some Ex's that for whatever reasons try to play spoiler as well, rather than letting the other person move on easily. It just postpones the inevitable IMO.

As the saying goes hurt people hurt people. 

They hold on because they believe it can get back to what it was. They hold on because its easier then the unknown.  The devil you know,  right?

The interesting thing about it is,  once the one holding on finally let's go often the one fleeing wants back.

Years ago when I first came here we had a WW who separated from her husband because she was "in love" with her OM. Her husband didn't know about the affair and said they would work it out somehow.  Few months down the road after constantly trying to win her back, he found out and stopped trying,  moved on with his life. She stopped posting.  A year or two later she was back. Husband moved on with a young woman and when she found out she wanted him back. She hounded him for weeks and he finally agreed to lunch. He went on to tell her that he knew about her affair,  she was shocked and wanted to know why he never said anything.  He said because she seemed happier and he wasn't going to let his pain ruin her happiness.  Then asked her to return the favor.  After that her thread fall into woe is me, how could I have done this to such a great man. Maybe someone else remembers the thread. She posted for a while after that and dissapeared again. 

Point being,  he was correct in holding on, he thought she would come back and she did, too late but she did.

[mark clemson]

That is an interesting story and no doubt is representative of a certain % of folks. I was thinking more of cases like I think you were referring to in your first two sentences. There doesn't have to be an affair involved even. I think sometimes people just feel like the person who wants to move on is "hurting them" via the "rejection". And so they cling partly out of spite in some cases. Even though they know they won't get them back, and may not even want them back, they play spoiler anyhow. A form of revenge in a way I guess to the "damage" to their self-image/sense of identity or what have you.

[pepperbird]

On 6/25/2020 at 10:17 PM, DKT3 said:

I don't think this is common.  I dont believe many people in affairs are "happier" overall because they are having an affair.  

We can all agree that not all BS are great people and not all WS are terrible people.  I know personally my wife is and always has been a better person than me.  Like I said sometimes an affair shouldn't be a shocker they are still always wrong. I believe that even if happy with or because of an affair,  there is still conflict internally and unhappiness because of the affair.  

My wife told me she felt stuck because she knew the AP was the only person in her life she could talk to about how she felt, and of course he would say it's ok, they just dont understand you the way I do. Positive reinforcement of a negative situation,  never take how important that is to people in affairs.  They know its wrong and no one wants to feel like crap about themselves.  I believe that keeps alot of affairs going. Happiness??  Maybe in the beginning.  Even if they end up with the AP. Overall?? Rarely. 

I really do believe it comes down to what sort of a person someone is at heart. If you're at heart an honest person, having an affair won't sit well with you. It doesn't mesh with your core values, and at some point, that's going to matter. Even if their marriage is terrible, their personal ethics won't allow them to enjoy the dishonesty. Divorce or staying put will be their "go to", and if they do cheat, it's not going to feel good to them -not really.

A lot wonder why a BS doesn't suspect cheating. There's a simple answer, and I think it falls along the lines of the above. If you are an honest person at heart, it can be easy to assume others are as well. You don't see deception because you aren't looking for it.

[understand50]

18 hours ago, pepperbird said:

I really do believe it comes down to what sort of a person someone is at heart. If you're at heart an honest person, having an affair won't sit well with you. It doesn't mesh with your core values, and at some point, that's going to matter. Even if their marriage is terrible, their personal ethics won't allow them to enjoy the dishonesty. Divorce or staying put will be their "go to", and if they do cheat, it's not going to feel good to them -not really.

A lot wonder why a BS doesn't suspect cheating. There's a simple answer, and I think it falls along the lines of the above. If you are an honest person at heart, it can be easy to assume others are as well. You don't see deception because you aren't looking for it.

Honesty,  yeah it the second part that is destroyed in the affair.  The lying, and obstruction that goes on.  The claiming and making the story of what went on to be the best possible take on what really happened.  In "I was drunk and taken advantage of"  to finding out, when took several days to flirt and then  bed the guy.  Honesty, never being able to answir simple questions.  "How did yo meet?" "how and when did it lead to sex?", and " how did it end?"  Blame for starting, maintaining, and having the affair belongs to the WS.  Blame for not being open, honest and forthcoming, also belongs to the WS.  There is no accidental affairs. 

I believe that a honest person, can have an affair driven on by lust, or booze, but I hope their reaction, is to confess, and work to be open and honest on what and why this happened.  Too many WS, just work not to get caught,  and then work to mitigate the consequences.  What is lost, is the trust, not only from the physical betrayal, but then any trust from knowing that the person is honest.  None of these action are the fault of the BS. 

 

 

[Subversa]

The responsibility of the affair lies with the WS alone. No one said abusive marriages don't exist. The world we live in is a cruel place, children go hungry and get molested. There are unjust killings, violent rapes. How we choose to live in this world, how we make decisions for/with/about others is based on our own sense of right and wrong. NOT on how someone treats us. People get handed a bad cards EVERYDAY. How do you pile up deceit and dishonesty on top of a bad marriage and expect a good outcome? If you are unhappy, make noise about it. I get everyone is not in a position to immediately divorce but at least have the decency to let your partner know the marriage isn't working. Let them know you are thinking about someone else. Blare the smoke alarm. 

 I don't accept the BS excuse where WS say that things 'JUST HAPPENED'. There was a moment when you decided to reply to that IM from your former friend. There was a moment when you decided to let him/her feel more than a friend. There was a moment when you decided to meet up for coffee. There was a moment when you decided to meet up again. There was a moment when decided to hug him/her. You made the decision to kiss him/her. Have sex. Schedule it again. Chose to lie to your spouse.

These are all conscious decisions made by capable individuals who knew what they were doing yet didn't care. 

Before WH's affair came to light, I viewed everyone as inherently honest. Assumed the best and gave benefit of doubt far too often. Unfortunately, I felt everyone was honest because I was. I no longer view the world through that myopic view.

[pepperbird]

22 hours ago, Subversa said:

The responsibility of the affair lies with the WS alone. No one said abusive marriages don't exist. The world we live in is a cruel place, children go hungry and get molested. There are unjust killings, violent rapes. How we choose to live in this world, how we make decisions for/with/about others is based on our own sense of right and wrong. NOT on how someone treats us. People get handed a bad cards EVERYDAY. How do you pile up deceit and dishonesty on top of a bad marriage and expect a good outcome? If you are unhappy, make noise about it. I get everyone is not in a position to immediately divorce but at least have the decency to let your partner know the marriage isn't working. Let them know you are thinking about someone else. Blare the smoke alarm. 

 I don't accept the BS excuse where WS say that things 'JUST HAPPENED'. There was a moment when you decided to reply to that IM from your former friend. There was a moment when you decided to let him/her feel more than a friend. There was a moment when you decided to meet up for coffee. There was a moment when you decided to meet up again. There was a moment when decided to hug him/her. You made the decision to kiss him/her. Have sex. Schedule it again. Chose to lie to your spouse.

These are all conscious decisions made by capable individuals who knew what they were doing yet didn't care. 

Before WH's affair came to light, I viewed everyone as inherently honest. Assumed the best and gave benefit of doubt far too often. Unfortunately, I felt everyone was honest because I was. I no longer view the world through that myopic view.

It's really innocence lost, isn't it. I've said before that it can be especially difficult for those who find it really hard to trust people. In trusted my spouse, and the breech of that was one of he most painful aspects of what he did. I would much rather have had him come to me and explain that he was unhappy- sure, that would have been painful, but it still would have been 100 times better than him cheating.

[DKT3]

Lost innocent,  or lost blind trust?

This is quote I got from my wifes thread years ago. 

Quote

Lately my sessions have been about what damage my A had/has on my family. Last month we talked about DKT. My affair changed him, gone was that fun loving guy who gave everyone the benefit of doubt. That man who was always positive and could lift you when you were down. Replaced by a much colder, far less trusting man who questions everyones motives. I did that to him and I'm so sorry.

 

[Subversa]

37 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

It's really innocence lost, isn't it. I've said before that it can be especially difficult for those who find it really hard to trust people. In trusted my spouse, and the breech of that was one of he most painful aspects of what he did. I would much rather have had him come to me and explain that he was unhappy- sure, that would have been painful, but it still would have been 100 times better than him cheating.

I get you @pepperbird, it absolutely changes you to the core. He should have come to you and communicated whatever was going on his mind. You are a stakeholder in the marriage and you deserved to know.
This is the same thing I told my WH that he should have told me he was having issues in the marriage. Whenever during his affair I asked him what was going on, he said everything is fine. 
PS: I have been reading your posts on the forum and soo many things you said have resonated with me. 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Subversa

[Subversa]

4 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Lost innocent,  or lost blind trust?

This is quote I got from my wifes thread years ago. 

 

@DKT3 Both things are different sides of the same coin. I think these are one of the inevitable changes that take place in a BS after infidelity. Mrs. DKT3 correctly recognized the personality shift in you and she sounds very remorseful about it. It must feel at least somewhat validating to hear your wayward spouse say that. Can you post the link of that thread here please?

These are all the things my WH says about me but doesn't sound remorseful about it. He says he feels sorry for hurting me etc. etc. SAYS all the right things.

He has said that I am colder and quieter, don't seem to enjoy family activities like before, I don't trust people but doesn't seem to realize his direct role, just wants life to go back to normal. 

 

 

[DKT3]

11 minutes ago, Subversa said:

@DKT3 Both things are different sides of the same coin. I think these are one of the inevitable changes that take place in a BS after infidelity. Mrs. DKT3 correctly recognized the personality shift in you and she sounds very remorseful about it. It must feel at least somewhat validating to hear your wayward spouse say that. Can you post the link of that thread here please?

These are all the things my WH says about me but doesn't sound remorseful about it. He says he feels sorry for hurting me etc. etc. SAYS all the right things.

He has said that I am colder and quieter, don't seem to enjoy family activities like before, I don't trust people but doesn't seem to realize his direct role, just wants life to go back to normal. 

 

 

@lovinDKT3 just tap and it will lead you to her profile.  She has posted here in a while.

[mark clemson]

19 hours ago, Subversa said:

He has said that I am colder and quieter, don't seem to enjoy family activities like before, I don't trust people but doesn't seem to realize his direct role, just wants life to go back to normal.

Well, what does he expect, really. Hopefully he now understands that's just not realistic. You are hurt and a hurt person has difficulty enjoying things, trusting, etc. At some point you presumably recover to the point where you can be more fun and trusting, but that will take significant time (and more work on his part in your case).

[understand50]

As you hear in many pop songs, "love" can leave a scar.  Adultery, leaves a scar.  This is just life.  Things happen in life, some good, some really good, and then all the bad stuff.  We are the sum total of all that we experience.  Your husband should get a clue on why you have changed.   If he does not understand that, then he does not really know just how much he has hurt you.   In truth, no one can really know, all about you.   They can get hints, think they know all, bit never really know just what hell, or not, you went though.  Of course you have changed, if nothing bad happened, just living life will change you.  Think of everything that changed when you bring a child in to the world.  Think how you changed.  Bad think work the same. 

I wish you luck.

 

[N0TH1N6L3FT]

On 5/8/2020 at 12:17 PM, elaine567 said:

I don't believe they can  Technically maybe  but in reality perhaps not.
Not everyone can persuade another person to cheat with them.
Yes YOU believed you had an opportunity with this woman, but did you really?
Had you tried she may have in no uncertain terms cut you dead...

 

That was Always my problem.  Hew had Always constantly having sex With other people.  I knew,  suspiciouned,  I didn't grow up here but he did. Everyone always converted for him, or ignored me not wanting to be in the middle of it.  His own mother since the Dane month we got married was always trying to get him set up with the cute girls she worked with.  His gather in law would always say,  "well, he's a man it's okay if he slaps his skanky slutty coworkers ass and flirts in front of you." So I always had many problems with his family and they think he's the angel even though knowing with his teen years,  and I was opposite him still yet. Be blames me for EVERYTHING,  then says I do that. But he gets so in infuriated when I make the same statement every time.  "I was disciplined when I was 8 for stealing out of my jar of change for ice cream with lunch that I learned more than one lesson.  1. I should never steal.  2. I should never deny my own actions and choices made of freewill. 3. I state specifically and a Exactly, whatever I done I know as a grown women is a Wrong.  4. After being married 16 years, there is NO TOPIC WHATSOEVER,  we shouldn't be able to talk about.  Never had any problems with it before.  5. If I am sorry,  and truly regretful feeling like scum,  I SAY, " I AM SO VERY SORRY AND NEEDED TO APOLOGIZE TO YOUR FACE,  WHILE I LOOK INTO YOUR EYES.  BECAUSE THAT'S HOW TO SHOW GENUINE EMPATHY AND SORROW.  IT'S THE UNIVERSAL CODE FOR RESPECT,  AND THAT I HONOR YOU ENOUGH TO BE UPFRONT AND HONEST.  NOTHING CAN EVER CHANGE TIME NOR CAN I EVER RE RIGHT MY OWN WRONGS,  BUT IF EVERY I DID YOU WRONG I ALWAYS TELL YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE.  MY.  HUSBAND. "

I never wanted to get married,  was 12 dr said couldn't have kids.  Sorry for caps, I have to scream lately. He doesn't actually listen.  He, doesn't shut up,  when he is quiet he isn't interested in anything I have to say pretty much. 

 

Also,  I was never not attractive.  He is the psycho jealous type. If he can't have me while he screws the whole town then nobody can have me at all. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by N0TH1N6L3FT

[N0TH1N6L3FT]

On 6/25/2020 at 12:42 PM, mark clemson said:

Indeed, an abusive and controlling BS who will not allow the WS to leave an unhappy marriage does not cause the WS to cheat.They just caused all the other problems. The decision to cheat was the WS's alone.

It's just that the decision to cheat is completely understandable in that context to a reasonable person IMO. As you say, we're all adults here.

But yes, you are correct - the cheating itself is all on the 'immoral" WS.

Wait. So what if the abusive in every way cheater is the one that doesn't want divorce? Especially until I started using my secure folder and backing everything up.  He's pissed I made dating profiles just like him and hide them.  I dont get the point,  made profiles never used again.  Only text my mother,  I am allowed to speak to her. He is way overly jealous of anyone that truly loves me. 

[N0TH1N6L3FT]

On 5/8/2020 at 12:51 PM, heartwhole2 said:

Yes, precisely. You can be ethical and have sex outside of your marriage, but not if you trap your spouse in a relationship they think is monogamous under false pretenses. But this would require self-awareness, good communication skills, respect for others, and consistency . . . qualities that would probably have saved you from finding yourself in an affair in the first place.

 THANK YOU.  That's what happened to me. "Part is in the past. "

[mark clemson]

14 hours ago, N0TH1N6L3FT said:

Wait. So what if the abusive in every way cheater is the one that doesn't want divorce?

Appreciate all the positive reactions on my posts you made.

The situation above would be a separate scenario to discuss. Perhaps if you define a bit more exactly the situation you're thinking of then people will chime in and give their thoughts on it.

[understand50]

On 7/22/2020 at 8:44 PM, N0TH1N6L3FT said:

Wait. So what if the abusive in every way cheater is the one that doesn't want divorce? Especially until I started using my secure folder and backing everything up.  He's pissed I made dating profiles just like him and hide them.  I dont get the point,  made profiles never used again.  Only text my mother,  I am allowed to speak to her. He is way overly jealous of anyone that truly loves me. 

 

On 7/23/2020 at 10:45 AM, mark clemson said:

Appreciate all the positive reactions on my posts you made.

The situation above would be a separate scenario to discuss. Perhaps if you define a bit more exactly the situation you're thinking of then people will chime in and give their thoughts on it.

One of the issue with Love shack and other site is the overwhelming push for divorce when ever someone post.  It has gotten better. There are many reasons not to get a divorce after infidelity.  As everyone is unique, and all relationship are different, sometime it does make good sense to forgive and stay together. This is not abuse. Nor is there any consequences arising from the infidelity. There are always consequences.  Each situation is complex and requires its own solution.  Trying to judge is not helpful, but pointing out mistakes and offering when work for Me, or us can be, but one must remember not everything will fit.

Divorce, can be the solution.  So I do not want to be one who would state that this is not true.  There is also time that it is not.