On assigning responsibility to an affair

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

How could you possibly know this about a stranger?

Its all well documented on this site.

[pepperbird]

5 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

How could you possibly know this about a stranger?

I have a high school sweetheart who has sent smoke signals over the years (I always tell my husband). On DDay he had just ended a long term relationship. I distinctly remember thinking, "You know what would feel good? To hear ex-boyfriend say he wants me." I considered that for all of two seconds, and I determined that as a married woman with kids, I couldn't offer him anything healthy or worthwhile, even if he would accept whatever I offered. I wasn't really concerned about my husband in that moment, but the idea of a revenge affair, even with an unattached person, was repugnant to me because I care about other humans for their own sake and not as toys for my amusement. When you're a healthy person, you generally aren't looking to introduce unhealthy things into the mix.

I couldn't do it any more than I could fill a bucket with a sieve.
I'd like to think that there isn't such a thing as a true cheater, but the more I read on here, the more I'm starting to think maybe that's just not so. I keep seeing "of course cheating is wrong, butttt ....".

It's so strange to see so many try and excuse so much hurtful behaviour. It's actually kind of weird.

[DKT3]

6 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Because they all have different backstories, and they attach different weight to different things. 
 

for example... My H needs PDA. Because of a bad first M, he needs the public reassurance that I still value him and want to be seen as being with him. Me, notsomuch. It’s nice, but I don’t get stressed if it’s not there. I didn’t grow up with PDA and so it’s kind of a cherry on the top for me, not a critical element of a R. But because his xW never wanted him anywhere near her in public, and always made a big deal of putting him down in front of others to make herself look good (not just him - she did it with everyone), how I relate to him in front of others really matters to him. If we went out and I didn’t take his hand walking down the street, it would hurt him. If he didn’t take my hand, I’d just assume he needed his hand free for something else, no big deal. 
 

 

Correct, like they wont cheat. Your post only proves my point, it's not the marriage or spouse but the individual who is cheating that is the problem.  As an example,  children who have parents who cheat are 7 times more likely to have affairs themselves.

[heartwhole2]

3 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

I couldn't do it any more than I could fill a bucket with a sieve.
I'd like to think that there isn't such a thing as a true cheater, but the more I read on here, the more I'm starting to think maybe that's just not so. I keep seeing "of course cheating is wrong, butttt ....".

It's so strange to see so many try and excuse so much hurtful behaviour. It's actually kind of weird.

I still think of cheating as a very human mistake. I mean, those love and sex hormones just feel GOOD. I get the inducement to justify bad choices. Of course, understanding that means I'm at least partly self-aware, which is one step towards not "falling into" (a.k.a. striding into) bad choices. 

The need to see ourselves as good people is strong. Therefore, when we make choices, they must be good too, right? It would take a lot less mental anguish, time, and energy to change our choices rather trying to reorder the universe so that bad is good, but we'd have to be strong enough to deal with feeling like a bad person.

[pepperbird]

I will never understand those who say "an ow/om isn't responsible for a person's choice to cheat! They chose that all on their own! " will then turn around and say " it's not the WS fault they cheated, their BS made them do it!"

It's actually quite sad when you think about it, but where does it end? Is everything always going to be someone elses fault? What if instead of cheating on her husband, an unhappy wife decides to gamble away their life savings, pick up the bottle, begin binge eating or self harming. Is that her husband's fault or hers?

When my spouse was a mess and we started counselling together, the therapist told him the first thing he needed to do was accept responsibility for his own mental health and actions. He also needed to talk to me about his needs instead of not doing so and then being angry that I couldn't predict them.

 

[pepperbird]

2 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I still think of cheating as a very human mistake. I mean, those love and sex hormones just feel GOOD. I get the inducement to justify bad choices. Of course, understanding that means I'm at least partly self-aware, which is one step towards not "falling into" (a.k.a. striding into) bad choices. 

The need to see ourselves as good people is strong. Therefore, when we make choices, they must be good too, right? It would take a lot less mental anguish, time, and energy to change our choices rather trying to reorder the universe so that bad is good, but we'd have to be strong enough to deal with feeling like a bad person.

I agree, but I do think there are some of us for whom monogamy is the default. Being in relation shops with two people at the same time would make me physically ill, and besides, who has time for that anyway? I've got enough crap on my plate as it is without adding a pile more, lol.

[Timshel]

6 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

The need to see ourselves as good people is strong. Therefore, when we make choices, they must be good too, right? It would take a lot less mental anguish, time, and energy to change our choices rather trying to reorder the universe so that bad is good, but we'd have to be strong enough to deal with feeling like a bad person.

It isn't this though Heartwhole, it isn't good/bad, centered or not.  Humans most of the time do what is pleasing to themselves.  Most humans do not want negative consequences and so most of the time do the best they can to avoid perceived failure of social constructs.  This does not make them good or bad, but it does leave a question of intellectual evolution.

There are some people who are operating on a different plane and the divide between is growing wider by the day. You expect too much.

I think that if a person is drawn to another then it is fine for them to go there, let them have it.

[heartwhole2]

20 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

When my spouse was a mess and we started counselling together, the therapist told him the first thing he needed to do was accept responsibility for his own mental health and actions. He also needed to talk to me about his needs instead of not doing so and then being angry that I couldn't predict them.

 

Yes, this was an element for us too. My husband decided to read evil malice into what was just an inability to read minds. Meanwhile, I was just going along doing my thing . . . trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, speaking up when I wasn't happy about something, etc. You know, adulting.

And then the OW say, "He's unhappy, that's why he's with me, and that's why he'll leave." No, he's unhappy because he's shirking his responsibility for his own well-being, and in the process he's caused a lot more unhappiness to go around.

[heartwhole2]

4 minutes ago, Timshel said:

It isn't this though Heartwhole, it isn't good/bad, centered or not.  Humans most of the time do what is pleasing to themselves.  Most humans do not want negative consequences and so most of the time do the best they can to avoid perceived failure of social constructs.  This does not make them good or bad, but it does leave a question of intellectual evolution.

There are some people who are operating on a different plane and the divide between is growing wider by the day. You expect too much.

I think that if a person is drawn to another then it is fine for them to go there, let them have it.

Maybe if you could rephrase I could follow a little better. What do you mean by "centered or not"? What do you mean by people operating on a different plane? Are you saying that we cannot determine if actions are good, healthy, bad, harmful, etc., but instead it's all just a social construct?

In any event, I have often concluded when reading LS that I am blessed to have a wide circle of really healthy friends. I don't think that's an accident; I think that if you are interested in bettering yourself and the world, then you naturally do the sorts of activities that introduce you to other such people. So maybe you are right that I expect the average person to be as emotionally whole as the people in my daily life are, but I believe this site is about bettering ourselves, so shouldn't that be our goal?

And the person I always expect the most from is myself.

[pepperbird]

20 minutes ago, Timshel said:

It isn't this though Heartwhole, it isn't good/bad, centered or not.  Humans most of the time do what is pleasing to themselves.  Most humans do not want negative consequences and so most of the time do the best they can to avoid perceived failure of social constructs.  This does not make them good or bad, but it does leave a question of intellectual evolution.

There are some people who are operating on a different plane and the divide between is growing wider by the day. You expect too much.

I think that if a person is drawn to another then it is fine for them to go there, let them have it.

If they are single or they are at least honest with their partner, then great! The thing is affairs are, at their core, dishonest. I don;t see affairs as being somehow more intellectually evolved or on a higher plane, and the same is true for those who choose not to engage in them. We're all just trying to do our best.

[Blind-Sided]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

If anyone was going to cheat it was going to be your wife.

Well... she basically did.  I know she had a "Friend" WAY before the paperwork was drawn up.  But, since she went nutz like her mother... I don't see that as the cause of the end. (but it didn't help the potential recovery)  I almost feel bad for her new guy.  LOL.

[DKT3]

26 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

Maybe if you could rephrase I could follow a little better. What do you mean by "centered or not"? What do you mean by people operating on a different plane? Are you saying that we cannot determine if actions are good, healthy, bad, harmful, etc., but instead it's all just a social construct?

In any event, I have often concluded when reading LS that I am blessed to have a wide circle of really healthy friends. I don't think that's an accident; I think that if you are interested in bettering yourself and the world, then you naturally do the sorts of activities that introduce you to other such people. So maybe you are right that I expect the average person to be as emotionally whole as the people in my daily life are, but I believe this site is about bettering ourselves, so shouldn't that be our goal?

And the person I always expect the most from is myself.

It is absolutely no coincidence that your friends are healthy.  Chaos and dysfunction loves chaos and dysfunction.  

Which brings me to an element in affairs we haven't touched on. In my time here, I've seen a lot of threads in which a WS entered into an affair based on unhealthy activities.  We've had threads were a husband is cheat with a drunk and begins drinking heavily or a wife starts doing drugs. Dysfunctional people seek out dysfunctional people. If one is leaning towards unhealthy activities having a spouse who makes mostly healthy choices makes them feel worse about themselves,  whereas a more like minded person makes them feel much better about their dysfunctional desires. 

[Timshel]

Pepperbird, if a person would want to be with another person then water seeks it's own level.  I would let them go.  In no way was I insinuating that affairs are on a higher plane or intellectually superior, lol.  That's what I get for posting.

Heartwhole, how wonderful that every person in your daily life are emotionally whole.  I enjoy your posts and am very glad that you are able to provide guidance to others on the board.  I noticed that you are talking more about your history with your husband lately and I suppose I wanted to address that.  

[Zona]

Does anyone think that social media makes it easier to cheat? Seems like if you were interested in a married coworker that you've gotten close to at work, it would be easy enough to "innocently" friend her on facebook and start a messenger chat. Or start texting her, at first about work, then get more personal as times goes by. That's another aspect to opportunity. Before smart phones and facebook and snapchat and what's ap etc., I think cheating would have been more difficult.

[pepperbird]

25 minutes ago, Timshel said:

Pepperbird, if a person would want to be with another person then water seeks it's own level.  I would let them go.  In no way was I insinuating that affairs are on a higher plane or intellectually superior, lol.  That's what I get for posting.

Heartwhole, how wonderful that every person in your daily life are emotionally whole.  I enjoy your posts and am very glad that you are able to provide guidance to others on the board.  I noticed that you are talking more about your history with your husband lately and I suppose I wanted to address that.  

sorry for the  misunderstanding, and thanks for the clarification :)

[DKT3]

25 minutes ago, Zona said:

Does anyone think that social media makes it easier to cheat? Seems like if you were interested in a married coworker that you've gotten close to at work, it would be easy enough to "innocently" friend her on facebook and start a messenger chat. Or start texting her, at first about work, then get more personal as times goes by. That's another aspect to opportunity. Before smart phones and facebook and snapchat and what's ap etc., I think cheating would have been more difficult.

Statistics have shown that female infertility has increased significantly during the same period as the social media movement.  Male infidelity has held steady for since the 1970s. Two ways to view it,  some believe that men and women have always cheated at about the same rate and women have been getting caught more due to social media or how you stated that crushes that would otherwise rise and fall without advancing past that are now being feed by the ease and "security" of social media.  With so many not truly understanding that once it goes out someone can always find it.

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, DKT3 said:

Correct, like they wont cheat. Your post only proves my point, it's not the marriage or spouse but the individual who is cheating that is the problem.  As an example,  children who have parents who cheat are 7 times more likely to have affairs themselves.

So in a case where you have a physically abusive man who threatens to murder a woman and the children if she leaves, and she's lonely, miserable, and desperate for some form of relatively healthy affection (relative to her spouse) and she takes of her wedding ring one night and has a ONS with some rando guy while her BS is drunk, she's the problem?

[heartwhole2]

6 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

So in a case where you have a physically abusive man who threatens to murder a woman and the children if she leaves, and she's lonely, miserable, and desperate for some form of relatively healthy affection (relative to her spouse) and she takes of her wedding ring one night and has a ONS with some rando guy while her BS is drunk, she's the problem?

Mark, this is a strange example because while we all feel sympathetic for a battered wife and understand the trauma and conditioning that are making it difficult for her to make healthy choices, a ONS is even riskier and more damaging for this woman than the average cheater. But I suppose you have chosen this extreme example to suggest that at some point the scales can tip and the non-cheater in the relationship can be the "problem" (I guess we are limiting ourselves to assigning only one "problem" person in the relationship?), and this absolves the cheater of responsibility for their unilateral decision to cheat? 

If I were unable to see the humanity in the decision to cheat I wouldn't be married to my husband today. But my ability to understand how he got to that place doesn't make his choices any less harmful or more rational.

I'm not clear on if you have cheated. Is there a reason you are invested in cheating being the fault of the one person who didn't know it was happening? 

I do hope you will check out the perspective on the secular, non-profit Infidelity Help Group page. Their logic is biting but pretty bullet-proof IMO. Agency, responsibility, integrity . . . these are my goals and I'm not going to pout and say, "Well he does crappy things too!" as I skip along to make dumb and self-destructive choices. Again, it's totally a normal thing that people do every day, justifying and blame-shifting and shirking, but it serves us well to hold it up to the light and see it for what it is.

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, Timshel said:

Pepperbird, if a person would want to be with another person then water seeks it's own level.  I would let them go.  In no way was I insinuating that affairs are on a higher plane or intellectually superior, lol.  That's what I get for posting.

Heartwhole, how wonderful that every person in your daily life are emotionally whole.  I enjoy your posts and am very glad that you are able to provide guidance to others on the board.  I noticed that you are talking more about your history with your husband lately and I suppose I wanted to address that.  

I'm sorry Timshel, I'm afraid I'm still missing what you were trying to tell me. I am curious if you care to elaborate. I agree about people seeking their own level. I said as much to my husband on DDay. Were you trying to say that I'm on a higher plane than he is and I should accept that and move on? Or was it a general comment? 

Of course nobody makes healthy choices 100% of the time, but in general when people seem fixated on vanity or riches or get caught in a lie or brag about cheating on their taxes or something, I don't find them compelling enough to keep getting to know. It doesn't happen often because I tend to meet very lovely people, but I trust my instincts when they tell me to steer clear. My husband and I always laugh because when we were younger and less established than we are now, we met two men (not connected to one another) around the same time who should have impressed me . . . wealthy and well connected and all that. And I said, ew, yuck! They both turned out to be involved in fraud and are both in prison now. I didn't know they were that depraved but I could tell we didn't share the same values. 

[mark clemson]

28 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

Mark .. I suppose you have chosen this extreme example to suggest that at some point the scales can tip and the non-cheater in the relationship can be the "problem" (I guess we are limiting ourselves to assigning only one "problem" person in the relationship?), and this absolves the cheater of responsibility for their unilateral decision to cheat?

Correct, although I wouldn't say "absolve". Quite frankly, you're not one of the folks around here who needs such an extreme example to make the point. This thread is about causes for cheating, and some seem to think it can always ever only be the cheater who is the "problem" in a relationship. I think there are folks who are far more interested in preserving that illusion than I am in justifying anything people may do. 

How would you recommend a woman in the situation I described (and we know they're out there) meet her needs?  She should just tough it out and go without love? Bad choice of husband = a life wasted or ?

I'm going to hold off on responding to some of your questions for now, hope that's ok.

Edited May 7, 2020 by mark clemson
clarified a point

[BaileyB]

38 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

So in a case where you have a physically abusive man who threatens to murder a woman and the children if she leaves, and she's lonely, miserable, and desperate for some form of relatively healthy affection (relative to her spouse) and she takes of her wedding ring one night and has a ONS with some rando guy while her BS is drunk, she's the problem?

Who’s fault is it? The abusive husband who drove the woman into the arms of another man, placing herself and perhaps her children at an even more extreme risk?

Somehow, amidst all the debate that happens on this site, people tend to forget that each individual person is responsible for their own choice/decisions in life.

Her husband is accountable for the abuse of his wife. She is responsible for the decision to stay in abusive relationship. She is also responsible for the decision to have a ONS - a decision that places herself and her children at an increased risk. 

I would suggest that it’s not reasonable to suggest that she is justified in having an affair because her husband is abusive. Personal responsibility would suggest that she has an obligation to make decisions that are in her best interest, that she has an obligation to act responsibly toward herself, her children, and even her husband (he deserves to get something alright, but not necessarily a cheating wife). 

 

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

How would you recommend a woman in the situation I described (and we know they're out there) meet her needs?  She should just tough it out and go without love? Bad choice of husband = a life wasted or ?

I would suggest that she seek the advice of a lawyer, pack her things and leave the home without his knowledge, file for a restraining order and divorce this man.

She will then be free to seek all the affection she wants, without placing her own life and the life of her children at risk. 

It’s such a simple concept really, that one should end one relationship before beginning another...

Edited May 7, 2020 by BaileyB

[Timshel]

12 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I'm afraid I'm still missing what you were trying to tell me. I am curious if you care to elaborate. I agree about people seeking their own level. I said as much to my husband on DDay. Were you trying to say that I'm on a higher plane than he is and I should accept that and move on? Or was it a general comment? 

 

Yes, perhaps I am saying that you are on a higher plane than your husband...take that Mr. Heartwhole. : )  No, I understand you two have done the most difficult work, together.  Much respect to both of you.  I'd rather till and sod a couple acres of land than go through what the two of you have been through.  That said, I have more fondness for Mrs. Heartwhole and @pepperbird.

The second half of your post is for the most part what I am implying, with perhaps too much discretion.  Yes, it is easy to see once you are able, that is all.

[mark clemson]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Her husband is accountable for the abuse of his wife. She is responsible for the decision to stay in abusive relationship. She is also responsible for the decision to have a ONS - a decision that places herself and her children at an increased risk.

True - and HW2 mentioned a similar point. Please note the phrasing of the post I was responding to, which implied only one "problem". I was responding in that vein to emphasize my point, not giving a full discourse (on points I've already discussed in the past and am basically in agreement with - that WS is ultimately responsible for their choices).

 

2 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Correct, like they wont cheat. Your post only proves my point, it's not the marriage or spouse but the individual who is cheating that is the problem.  As an example,  children who have parents who cheat are 7 times more likely to have affairs themselves.

[mark clemson]

16 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I would suggest that she seek the advice of a lawyer, pack her things and leave the home without his knowledge, file for a restraining order and divorce this man.

She will then be free to seek all the affection she wants, without placing her own life and the life of her children at risk. 

With respect, her marriage was a disaster. Why create more disaster by choosing to sleep with another man outside of the marriage. 

This seems reasonable to us, but maybe not to her. The kind of "protection" you describe is pretty ineffective with certain types of individuals. I'm going to say (for sake of my scenario here) leaving as you describe puts her and kids at extreme risk and she has high confidence in her ability to get away with the affair (maybe an out-of-towner or something).

Still against it? She cringes when her husband touches her. Just go without anything remotely resembling healthy love her whole life? Have the ONS? Something else?

Edited May 7, 2020 by mark clemson
typo