On assigning responsibility to an affair

[spiritedaway2003]

It's a good discussion.  The reality is that not every affair is the same. There are common elements and outcomes, but it does it a great disservice to paint every situation in broad strokes. 

Flip this around for a second.  Can you imagine giving this same advice to all BS all the time:  "Your spouse cheated.  Once a cheater, always a cheater.  It's be stupid to take back your spouse who betrayed you, divorce him or her already."   It is overly simplistic.  There are many considerations when it comes to making a decision on whether to take a cheating spouse back.  If it happened to me, I might consider the length and history of the relationship, how long the affair had been happening, whether he is truly remorseful and willing to do the work, and whether I can trust him again.  Just as there are many consideration in making a decision when considering a divorce, because of the shared lives, shared histories, shared kids.  It's easy to say "You should just divorce first instead of cheating".   It is the ethical thing do, but saying that helps no one...in hindsight. 

I also think marriages often aren't as bad as a WS may tell a OM/OW.  I'm also sure some people lived with integrity in their lives, and never expected to find themselves in this situation.  People don't think it would happen to them, until it does.  Because let's be honest -- most people enter into marriages in good faith.  They don't go wide-eyed into a marriage thinking they would cheat on their spouse or wanting to divorce.

Let me be clear. I think cheating is wrong and it hurts many people.  I don't even think anyone is even saying that the act of cheating is the fault of BS.  A "bad" marriage isn't a license to cheat.  Yet to categorically deny that under NO CASES where a bad marriage could lead to vulnerability when "circumstances" and "opportunity" meet, that's just not realistic.  And not everyone is like DKT3, and I like the example he gave on setting boundaries. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by spiritedaway2003

[pepperbird]

4 minutes ago, spiritedaway2003 said:

It's a good discussion.  The reality is that not every affair is the same. There are common elements and outcomes, but it does it a great disservice to paint every situation in broad strokes. 

Flip this around for a second.  Can you imagine giving this same advice to all BS all the time:  "Your spouse cheated.  Once a cheater, always a cheater.  It's be stupid to take back your spouse who betrayed you, divorce him or her already."   It is overly simplistic.  There are many considerations when it comes to making a decision on whether to take a cheating spouse back.  If it happened to me, I might consider the length and history of the relationship, how long the affair had been happening, whether he is truly remorseful and willing to do the work, and whether I can trust him again.  Just as there are many consideration in making a decision when considering a divorce, because of the shared lives, shared histories, shared kids.  It's easy to say "You should just divorce first instead of cheating".   It is the ethical thing do, but saying that helps no one...in hindsight. 

I also think marriages often aren't as bad as a WS may tell a OM/OW.  Because they don't want to rock the boat, it becomes (temporarily) an easier way out than the alternative. I'm sure some people lived with integrity in all other situations, and never expected to find themselves in this position.  People don't think it would happen to them, until it does.  Because let's be honest -- most people enter into marriages in good faith.  They don't go wide-eyed into a marriage thinking they would cheat on their spouse or wanting to divorce.

Let me be clear. I think cheating is wrong and it hurts many people.  I don't even think anyone is even saying that the act of cheating is the fault of BS.  A "bad" marriage isn't a license to cheat.  Yet to categorically deny that under NO CASES where a bad marriage could lead to vulnerability when "circumstances" and "opportunity" meet, that's just not realistic.  And not everyone is like DKT3, and I like the example he gave on setting boundaries. 

It is an interesting discussion-lots of different view points.

To me, cheating isn't ethical. At that point in time, an individual, for whatever reaosn, consciously made the choice to cross the line. I don't mean they set out to do it-more that it's the end result of series of choices and actions.

I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that someone who cheats will always go on to do it again. A big part of that is taking ownership. Oddly enough, the person who taught me that was my husband. After he got back, he did therapy for PTSD for several years and I didn't spousal sessions with him for  along time. One thing he told me he learned is that, while he can;t control the triggers he would see/hear or remember, what he could do is learn to change how he reacted to them. That put him in control. It's really hard, but it makes a huge difference.

I think of marriage conflicts, cheating etc. in same way. You can't control your feelings, but you can control how you react to/express them. There's times I could just throttle my ( figuratively, not literally🤣) - I can;t control that. That doesn't mean I have to whip out a rope, put it around his throat and start pulling.
I love him, to death, but like anyone else who has been together a long time, we do bicker sometimes

[DKT3]

1 hour ago, spiritedaway2003 said:

It's a good discussion.  The reality is that not every affair is the same. There are common elements and outcomes, but it does it a great disservice to paint every situation in broad strokes. 

Flip this around for a second.  Can you imagine giving this same advice to all BS all the time:  "Your spouse cheated.  Once a cheater, always a cheater.  It's be stupid to take back your spouse who betrayed you, divorce him or her already."   It is overly simplistic.  There are many considerations when it comes to making a decision on whether to take a cheating spouse back.  If it happened to me, I might consider the length and history of the relationship, how long the affair had been happening, whether he is truly remorseful and willing to do the work, and whether I can trust him again.  Just as there are many consideration in making a decision when considering a divorce, because of the shared lives, shared histories, shared kids.  It's easy to say "You should just divorce first instead of cheating".   It is the ethical thing do, but saying that helps no one...in hindsight. 

I also think marriages often aren't as bad as a WS may tell a OM/OW.  I'm also sure some people lived with integrity in their lives, and never expected to find themselves in this situation.  People don't think it would happen to them, until it does.  Because let's be honest -- most people enter into marriages in good faith.  They don't go wide-eyed into a marriage thinking they would cheat on their spouse or wanting to divorce.

Let me be clear. I think cheating is wrong and it hurts many people.  I don't even think anyone is even saying that the act of cheating is the fault of BS.  A "bad" marriage isn't a license to cheat.  Yet to categorically deny that under NO CASES where a bad marriage could lead to vulnerability when "circumstances" and "opportunity" meet, that's just not realistic.  And not everyone is like DKT3, and I like the example he gave on setting boundaries. 

The point I'm making,  I believe is all inclusive.  I will concede that a bad marriage or spouse can make one more vulnerable,  example when a man is only allowed access 3 or 4 times a year he is more likely to cheat then a man allowed access 3 or 4 times a month or a woman who's husband doesn't talk to her or allow her into his life is more likely to seek it elsewhere.  The BS is responsible for that feeling of rejection the WS will/may have. However,  making the decision to actually cheat isnt a result of that rejection but a choice the WS made to deal with the rejection.  That choice is 100% on them, that choice is a result of thier mental makeup.  That is why everyone doesn't cheat because we all face rejection in some form in relationships,  we are all unhappy with relationships and partners at some point.

Those who engage in affairs do so willingly,  maybe its not what they envisioned,  yet they made it happen.  We are just friends...when they clearly know there is an attraction.  It will only happen once...when they are already fantasizing about it happening again.  Guilt and shame,  that is what creates the need to blame the marriage and spouse. Doing so eases that voice saying this is wrong, what you're doing is horrible. Instead it's well they didn't do this so I deserve it.  No one ever wants to be the bad guy in the story of thier life. 

Living an authentic life requires us to dig deeper and place the appropriate blame on ourselves even if that means we are the black hat in our own story,  it's the only way we can truly pursue happiness. 

[Bittersweetie]

On 5/8/2020 at 10:48 AM, elaine567 said:

But that is assuming you are exactly the same, with the same needs, the same wants, the same desires, the same opportunities, the same circumstances... etc.
Sometimes people do not cheat as they just cannot find anyone to cheat with...

I didn't assume we were exactly the same...just the same issues (that we worked through after d-day). Actually it proves my point that we're different because I cheated and he didn't. (And at that time we were living 2000 miles apart so if he really wanted to, he could have and I would have never known. As for opportunity, I used AM...so could he.)

I am speaking to my experience as a cheater, only because while this thread has been enlightening, I don't see many past cheaters providing input.

[Bittersweetie]

Everyone deserves happiness, but not at someone else's expense.

[Zona]

13 minutes ago, Bittersweetie said:

As for opportunity, I used AM

The opportunity for women the cheat is almost unlimited, regardless of shape/size/weight/age/etc.

I'm sure you were slammed with countless contact requests when you signed up. 

[oldtruck]

On 5/8/2020 at 9:34 PM, DKT3 said:

The point I'm making,  I believe is all inclusive.  I will concede that a bad marriage or spouse can make one more vulnerable,  example when a man is only allowed access 3 or 4 times a year he is more likely to cheat then a man allowed access 3 or 4 times a month or a woman who's husband doesn't talk to her or allow her into his life is more likely to seek it elsewhere.  The BS is responsible for that feeling of rejection the WS will/may have. However,  making the decision to actually cheat isnt a result of that rejection but a choice the WS made to deal with the rejection.  That choice is 100% on them, that choice is a result of thier mental makeup.  That is why everyone doesn't cheat because we all face rejection in some form in relationships,  we are all unhappy with relationships and partners at some point.

Those who engage in affairs do so willingly,  maybe its not what they envisioned,  yet they made it happen.  We are just friends...when they clearly know there is an attraction.  It will only happen once...when they are already fantasizing about it happening again.  Guilt and shame,  that is what creates the need to blame the marriage and spouse. Doing so eases that voice saying this is wrong, what you're doing is horrible. Instead it's well they didn't do this so I deserve it.  No one ever wants to be the bad guy in the story of thier life. 

Living an authentic life requires us to dig deeper and place the appropriate blame on ourselves even if that means we are the black hat in our own story,  it's the only way we can truly pursue happiness. 

true.

yet it does not justify an affair.

that unhappy then get a divorce.

 

if that unhappy tell the spouse why, they refuse to change, then tell them you are going

to have an open marriage. two things can happen. they change and you are happy.

 

or they do not change and accept you dating, they do not change and divorce you and

you are happy being out of a bad marriage.

[DKT3]

13 hours ago, oldtruck said:

true.

yet it does not justify an affair.

that unhappy then get a divorce.

 

if that unhappy tell the spouse why, they refuse to change, then tell them you are going

to have an open marriage. two things can happen. they change and you are happy.

 

or they do not change and accept you dating, they do not change and divorce you and

you are happy being out of a bad marriage.

No, really nothing justifies an affair. 

Playing devil's advocate,  wayward spouses would have you believe affairs are better for the family unit then divorce.  So they do the spouse and kids favors by having an affair to get thier piece of happiness while maintaining the unit. I personally get how they convince themselves on this point, what they dont see or admit is even if there was some truth, its still harmful because they are in a sense an absent parent and spouse.  With so much energy going towards lying and sneaking around how can you possibly be a productive member of a unit? Thier are actually counterproductive towards that unit.

[understand50]

We have this topic several times.  Last time, I think I remember the outcome, was as follows.  Both are responsible for the state of the marriage.  A bad marriage is a thing between two persons.  One may be more aggressive and out spoken, but the other accepts the situation, or both may just be bad person.  Very rarely is the blame on just one person.   As for cheating, that is on the spouse that cheats.  Marriages, ab and flow.  Sometimes real good and sometime, not so much.  We also had past WS here who have let us in on how and why they strayed.  Boiling it all down, it comes down to several things.  ( in my opinion)

One, I deserve this.

Two,  I am in "love" (lust).

Three, do not think my spouse would care, or does care for me.

 Four, No one will know, or find out, so I can have some "fun"

I am sure there are other reasons, but in the end it all comes down to they cheat, because they wanted to during that particular moment in time.  Assigning blame to a affair?  It is all on the cheater.   Assigning blame for a bad marriage?  On both partners, and the percentage, depends on the situation and persons involved.

I wish you luck.........

 

[mark clemson]

On 5/8/2020 at 12:53 PM, pepperbird said:

It's as if you think cheating is okay, so long as the person doesn't get caught? the tree falling  with no one there to hear it may not make a sound, but it sure leaves a huge hole in the forest.

 Generally no, I'm thinking of some highly specific circumstances.

 

On 5/8/2020 at 3:14 PM, BaileyB said:

My view is that cheating in not a reasonable choice to any situation, particularly not when there is another choice that would allow me to keep my integrity and still find happiness/meet my needs. 

Right. So, I was specifically discussing a scenario where other options, such as divorce/attempts to leave would result in death. I'm not expecting you to agree with my conclusion, as the WS in consideration had the option to go without having her emotional/physical needs met for the LT. But again, I think it's reasonable under those types of circumstances (providing it can be done with extremely low risk, as I described).

[DKT3]

Reality is, women in that level of abusive relationships won't cheat. It goes against everything they've been conditioned for.  They would be too terrified.  

[mark clemson]

I suspect that's true for some sizable % of them. Possibly all, but my guess would be no, particularly if the abusive H binge drinks or provides her similar opportunities in some way. But no doubt what you say is true for some, and quite possibly most.

[elaine567]

49 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Reality is, women in that level of abusive relationships won't cheat. It goes against everything they've been conditioned for.  They would be too terrified.  

I agree for women in extreme abusive relationships then cheating is probably not something they would want to risk their life for.
But for a woman who is looking for an escape route out of a less "extreme" abusive relationship then trying to monkey branch onto a better prospect may be worth it.

[Starswillshine]

Mark,

Even in your extreme scenario the cause is that of thr WS and her weakness. 

Remember there are many people out there that go for decades without any relationship, ONS, etc... they are able to live and thrive. I know we all like to think it is a basic need, and there is some truth to it but it is not an absolute. 

I, too, spent lots of time working in a battered women's shelter. I have never had any of them tell me that they had an affair. Pretty much all of the women were just trying to figure out how to survive and get out of the awful situation. 

[Prudence V]

15 hours ago, elaine567 said:

But for a woman who is looking for an escape route out of a less "extreme" abusive relationship then trying to monkey branch onto a better prospect may be worth it

This.

The women in the shelter I referred to earlier were escaping horrific abuse - it was a small, NGO-funded shelter that couldn’t cope with demand so housed only the most urgent cases. These were women whose sense of agency had been beaten out of them, who saw their only hope as “being rescued” - which, sadly, often involved a man. There we were, trying as good feminists to empower them, while they continued to sneak out of the shelter, as they’d snuck out of their marital homes before that, to meet up with their lovers who they’d hope would save them. 
 

Sometimes it worked out, but mostly it didn’t. 

[pepperbird]

2 hours ago, Prudence V said:

This.

The women in the shelter I referred to earlier were escaping horrific abuse - it was a small, NGO-funded shelter that couldn’t cope with demand so housed only the most urgent cases. These were women whose sense of agency had been beaten out of them, who saw their only hope as “being rescued” - which, sadly, often involved a man. There we were, trying as good feminists to empower them, while they continued to sneak out of the shelter, as they’d snuck out of their marital homes before that, to meet up with their lovers who they’d hope would save them. 
 

Sometimes it worked out, but mostly it didn’t. 

adult women are sneaking out of a shelter? I don't know about what domestic violence shelters like where you are, but here, the residents have free agency. They can come and go as they please, so long as they maintain the "secrecy" and don't reveal its location. Also, counselling is always a mandatory piece of the assistance. Having an affair would never, ever be condoned or recommended, simply because it adds an extra layer of stress to someone who is already suffering.

When one thinks about  it, the most loving act the OM/OW could do in that sort of situation is walk away, at least until the person is able to make decisions with a clear head.  Give the man or woman some time to figure themselves out and heal without an outside influences.

[Blind-Sided]

I agree with some of the above.  A woman in a truly abusive relationship will not risk her life.  But with the case of my 3 female friends... they are all unhappy, and are (sort of) monkey branching.   Well... only the one is looking as the AP as her next SO.

But to the reasons the @understand50 posted... I think your first 3 reasons are truly what woman do... and #4 is what a jaded guy does.  (in general)

[mark clemson]

21 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I agree for women in extreme abusive relationships then cheating is probably not something they would want to risk their life for.
But for a woman who is looking for an escape route out of a less "extreme" abusive relationship then trying to monkey branch onto a better prospect may be worth it.

Generally, my take would be that the less severe the abuse is the less cheating is a reasonable "solution" vs. just leaving. Not that it's my place to judge an abused woman, but if she's able to leave without much actual risk, she shouldn't need to cheat, as I would think leaving/freeing herself from the situation should be the priority.

 

8 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

Even in your extreme scenario the cause is that of thr WS and her weakness. 

Remember there are many people out there that go for decades without any relationship, ONS, etc... they are able to live and thrive. I know we all like to think it is a basic need, and there is some truth to it but it is not an absolute.

While you have a point, people vary quite a bit psychologically and in terms of their "needs". I don't think it's fair to expect someone to choose to live without some form of romantic/sexual/emotional satisfaction. Some people can indeed be happy like this, whereas others experience find it quite distressing. We have folks like that posting in the Dating section here with some regularity, as well as folks feeling quite unhappy/lonely in their marriages etc. 

So, not sure it makes sense to call this "weakness" as opposed to normal human needs. A heterosexual might call a homosexual's impulses "weakness" but that's not really fair, since they don't actually have those impulses. Similarly, an asexual man might see other men as "weak", but most of us would call those other men "normal".

[pepperbird]

I think there's some real stretching going non now.
No one is saying impulses are wrong. No one can help how they feel. It's percent normal to be attracted to other people and even to develop " micro crushes' on people one meets. It happens all them time, married or not. The thing is that one doesn't have to act on them, and quite frankly, unless one chooses to actively tend and water that garden, those feelings wither and die because they aren't being fed.

I really do think some people place way too much significance on these sorts of attractions/crushes. I don;t know why. I've seen lots people who say they are happily married meet someone they feel a spark with who just sort of enjoy that feeling but walk away, so it never develops into anything more than a  momentary smile on their face. They don't feel a need to act on it. Others choose a different route. Rather than walk away, they nuture and tend that spark.

[elaine567]

On 5/12/2020 at 7:22 PM, mark clemson said:

Generally, my take would be that the less severe the abuse is the less cheating is a reasonable "solution" vs. just leaving. Not that it's my place to judge an abused woman, but if she's able to leave without much actual risk, she shouldn't need to cheat, as I would think leaving/freeing herself from the situation should be the priority.

But then we get into the reasons why some women will stay and cheat rather than just leave.

 

[mark clemson]

Hmmm. I'm sure there is stuff that could be explored there, but - my scenario was a very unhappy, abused woman who is very afraid to leave due to the consequences (H is a psycho who will hunt her down and kill her and kids).

I'm sure there is something to the psychology of abused women who stay with their abusers via codependency or whatever the psychological mechanisms may be (other than fear/force on the part of the abuser). That said I'm really not out to simply make excuses for abused women (or men) to cheat. Sure there may be some form of causation in what your describing, but again - if it's abuse, they should leave. That should be the #1 priority. Sticking around and cheating if they're not afraid to leave just becomes the "band-aid" on an awful marriage, which is something we typically see.

There can be other factors at play that might "lock a person in", but to me that's a separate sub-discussion. Maybe I'll post something along those lines next week (not in the abuse vein tho).

[Prudence V]

 

On 5/12/2020 at 2:59 PM, pepperbird said:

adult women are sneaking out of a shelter?

Yes. As a NGO running on a shoestring budget, we couldn’t afford very sophisticated access control systems back then. We had a strict curfew, and a security guard on duty at the street entrance after hours. Because bringing anyone to the shelter was forbidden, those women with lovers used to disable the alarm and sneak out the kitchen door and meet their lovers in the nearby graveyard. 

On 5/12/2020 at 2:59 PM, pepperbird said:

Also, counselling is always a mandatory piece of the assistance.

As I mentioned in my first post about this, I worked there as a volunteer - yes, providing counselling. We employed full-time staff for the other stuff. Having affairs wasn’t “condoned or recommended” - and sneaking out ran the risk of being evicted from the shelter. But as a counsellor, my role was to be non-judgmental, and I certainly wasn’t going to beat up on someone whose life was at risk. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Prudence V

[pepperbird]

7 hours ago, Prudence V said:

 

Yes. As a NGO running on a shoestring budget, we couldn’t afford very sophisticated access control systems back then. We had a strict curfew, and a security guard on duty at the street entrance after hours. Because bringing anyone to the shelter was forbidden, those women with lovers used to disable the alarm and sneak out the kitchen door and meet their lovers in the nearby graveyard. 

As I mentioned in my first post about this, I worked there as a volunteer - yes, providing counselling. We employed full-time staff for the other stuff. Having affairs wasn’t “condoned or recommended” - and sneaking out ran the risk of being evicted from the shelter. But as a counsellor, my role was to be non-judgmental, and I certainly wasn’t going to beat up on someone whose life was at risk. 

wow!
I've been a volunteer in many positions in domestic violence shelters, including sitting on the BOD. If any of our guests ever did what you report, they would have been asked to leave immediately, and no volunteer would ever cover up for that. It put the whole shelter at risk. It was such a concern at the places I served that it was part of the risk mitigation agreements we had with the women and also the police and it was also a request made during town hall style meetings with the community to discuss changing the zoning in an area where we were building a secondary shelter.

At any rate, that doesn't matter. Adding someone else to the equation through an affair if a woman ( or man) is in a domestic violence shelter or otherwise being abused is a bad idea. Really, any man or woman that would take advantage of person who was being abused and vulnerable is quite a heel.

 

[pepperbird]

On 5/14/2020 at 11:06 AM, mark clemson said:

Hmmm. I'm sure there is stuff that could be explored there, but - my scenario was a very unhappy, abused woman who is very afraid to leave due to the consequences (H is a psycho who will hunt her down and kill her and kids).

I'm sure there is something to the psychology of abused women who stay with their abusers via codependency or whatever the psychological mechanisms may be (other than fear/force on the part of the abuser). That said I'm really not out to simply make excuses for abused women (or men) to cheat. Sure there may be some form of causation in what your describing, but again - if it's abuse, they should leave. That should be the #1 priority. Sticking around and cheating if they're not afraid to leave just becomes the "band-aid" on an awful marriage, which is something we typically see.

There can be other factors at play that might "lock a person in", but to me that's a separate sub-discussion. Maybe I'll post something along those lines next week (not in the abuse vein tho).

The thing with an abuser is they beat you down so much they have you believing their non sense.
I don't know how they get so good at it. I often think it's because they were abused themselves and learned through experience.
 

[DKT3]

I think there are occasions when an abused spouse (both males and females) seek comfort in other people.  I think its extremely rare.  The thing is, when you read this site and others like it, it's made to sound like the norm. Most WW claim abuse, why? Because it's the ace, it will automatically gain her sympathy and support.  Its rarely true.

Example,  on other site about a year ago there was a WW who spent about two months spinning her tales of abuse and control. At some point her husband stumbled upon her posts, joined and gave his side.  Come to find out, she was actually a serial cheater and the control she claimed was the conditions she agreed too, to get yet another chance.  The abuse was actually her husband detaching from her and not treating her as well as he had in the past. Of course she quickly exited stage left and has yet to return.  That I'm afraid is the norm. Maybe not to that degree. 

Truly abused woman simply don't cheat on her abuser.  Most often she is just a selfish,  entitled live in the moment type who fraudulently make claims to get sympathy and make herself feel better about what she did.