On wearing masks

[greymatter]

On 5/15/2020 at 4:17 PM, basil67 said:

Soap is abrasive and can scratch the hell out of your glasses.  Sadly speaking from experience.

I occasionally use soap (foaming unscented hand soap from Whole Foods) on my glasses without any problem or scratches, but usually just wipe my eyeglasses clean with a damp towel whenever necessary. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by greymatter

[Juha]

1 hour ago, Redhead14 said:

Right.  If masks and washing hands weren't effective, we'd be having the numbers of cases and deaths that we were trying to avoid by implementing the measures we've been taking . . . and China would be in worse shape and South Korea, et al.  The numbers are lower because of the measures we've been taking PERIOD.  Too bad we didn't start sooner.

As I said you will believe what you want, you do not want to research scientific data, protocols, facts, etc..

Like I said most people are closed minded, lemmings just following along what they think is true.

If you really wanted to know you would research things, deeply with people who do this on a daily basis

 

I never said anything about hand washing not being effective, so please do not put words in my mouth that is ignorant.

hand washing does work and is very effective in killing the virus as the out layer is fatty and easily broken, once broken the virus is 

no longer able to infect you.

 

also capitalizing PERIOD is cute but really only means it is you opinion, not that is truthful or a scientific fact

 

I know you want me to post things, show you, etc.  I don't waste my time anymore, if you want to know you will find it.

Most people don't, so I do not waste my time with posting anything just to have people tell me it's made up, that is not true

he is not with the government, etc.    

 

I am just trying to share knowledge, truth, I see here, is like most of the population and don't

Believe what you want, right or wrong.  That is how it is

Keep believing your mask is doing something, anything

 

Wish you health and luck

Edited May 17, 2020 by Juha

[sothereiwas]

On 5/15/2020 at 4:17 PM, basil67 said:

Soap is abrasive and can scratch the hell out of your glasses.  Sadly speaking from experience.

I use dish soap on my reading glasses from time to time, no issues in maybe 6 years of use. Hand soap, particularly bar soap, I'd suspect of being more likely to have abrasives maybe. 

[basil67]

28 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

I use dish soap on my reading glasses from time to time, no issues in maybe 6 years of use. Hand soap, particularly bar soap, I'd suspect of being more likely to have abrasives maybe. 

I was probably using bar soap.  Dish soap makes sense because it's designed to be gentle on wine glasses.

[basil67]

nvm

Edited May 17, 2020 by basil67

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, Juha said:

As I said you will believe what you want, you do not want to research scientific data, protocols, facts, etc..

Like I said most people are closed minded, lemmings just following along what they think is true.

If you really wanted to know you would research things, deeply with people who do this on a daily basis

 

I never said anything about hand washing not being effective, so please do not put words in my mouth that is ignorant.

hand washing does work and is very effective in killing the virus as the out layer is fatty and easily broken, once broken the virus is 

no longer able to infect you.

 

also capitalizing PERIOD is cute but really only means it is you opinion, not that is truthful or a scientific fact

 

I know you want me to post things, show you, etc.  I don't waste my time anymore, if you want to know you will find it.

Most people don't, so I do not waste my time with posting anything just to have people tell me it's made up, that is not true

he is not with the government, etc.    

 

I am just trying to share knowledge, truth, I see here, is like most of the population and don't

Believe what you want, right or wrong.  That is how it is

Keep believing your mask is doing something, anything

 

Wish you health and luck

You said there's science, just give us the first few words of the paper and one author and we can find it and check it out. I don't see how you can tell us to look at this truth and then not tell us what it is but at the same time accuse us of refusing to see. Just list those words (a link holds posts up) and we can read the study and if it has better information that can only help not just us but anybody we come into contact, talk to, etc. How could you not want that?

I'm not trying to harass you but you know, some of us know and love compromised people, and do read up on whatever research we can, and where MSM does come in handy is that often, studies will be named and probably linked. When that happens you can read and see whether cherry-picking happened or whether the info blurb was legit. There's at least a jumping off point to do your own research. Whatever paper you be read, I'm assuming you are not.one of the authors so.if it seems bogus I will not come down on you for it. Criticisms of any would be of the study.

Edited May 17, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[schlumpy]

10 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

If masks did not prevent the spread of the virus, wouldn't 100% of the nurses and doctors (who worked the COVID-19 patients) test positive??

That's a good commonsense point HL. From the things I've read, my take is that the masks being used (depends on what type) will not filter out the virus. It's too small. The main purpose of the mask is to keep the mask wearer from spreading infection in the form of spray or droplets that the virus clings to. In labs that deal viruses they use positive pressure suits where an outside source of air is constantly pumped into the suit and exits into the surrounding air. The pressure keeps anything from entering the suit. I don't believe they rely on filters. I'm pretty sure even a HEPA filter would not stop a virus.

[amaysngrace]

I can smell through my mask.  If someone’s wearing heavy perfume I can smell it and yesterday at home depot I could smell the hand sanitizer at the register.  It’s awesome, I love it! A local brewery donated it and it’s very liquidy but some smell like rum and the others like tequila. 

Anyway, if I can smell through it I’m not sure how much help it’s actually giving. 

[nospam99]

I don't need no steenking research. All I need it what I learned three times, over and over again: junior high school, high school, and college.

Based on that learning, I'm going to make four Occam's Razor assumptions. If you think those assumptions don't hold, then ignore my reasoning.

First, I assume this virus spreads LIKE EVERY OTHER AIRBORNE PATHOGEN - by floating in the air.

Second, I assume that the likelihood of a person getting any one particular virus particle is a probability distribution dependent on how long they spend in a field of airborne particles and the density of that field.

Third, I assume the likelihood of the virus overcoming the person's immune response is a probability distribution dependent on the number of individual virus particles that get inside their body.

Fourth, I assume the likelihood of the virus spreading other than by airborne e.g. on a surface is insignificant in comparison to airborne. This assumption does not hold in environments where the viral load is large enough to expect significant settlement on surfaces e.g. a covid-19 ward in a hospital that is not being cleaned.

Now, why masks don't matter:

IT gets YOU through your eyes which are not protected by the mask.

YOU spread IT because your mask leaks, around the edges AND because it's smaller than the tiny holes in the mask. As you wear the mask, the inside of the mask fills up with viri (I love Latin plurals). The fuller the mask gets, the more leakage around the edges and the more viri getting through the tiny holes in the mask. For reference, the last ESTIMATE I saw online about the size of the covid-19 virus was .12 microns.

[d0nnivain]

It's allergy season here in the NE.  I sneeze all day long no matter what.  I wear a mask & sneeze into my arm to help minimize the spray from my sneeze.  It's simply courteous.  

[gaius]

2 hours ago, nospam99 said:

Now, why masks don't matter:

IT gets YOU through your eyes which are not protected by the mask.

YOU spread IT because your mask leaks, around the edges AND because it's smaller than the tiny holes in the mask. As you wear the mask, the inside of the mask fills up with viri (I love Latin plurals). The fuller the mask gets, the more leakage around the edges and the more viri getting through the tiny holes in the mask. For reference, the last ESTIMATE I saw online about the size of the covid-19 virus was .12 microns.

Nobody is saying that masks will completely eliminate any virus from getting out. But if everyone wears one it can reduce the virus load in the air so significantly that transmission becomes much less likely. If it's not in the air it can't get in the eyes.

And I know you're another one who doesn't spend a whole lot of time looking at research and data nospam, that you're determined to think for yourself, but too many people thinking for themselves is what's got us to this point in the first place. Masks are probably one of the most effective tools we have right now and people fighting against them just to be different and rebels without a cause is incredibly unhelpful.

[Redhead14]

11 hours ago, Juha said:

As I said you will believe what you want, you do not want to research scientific data, protocols, facts, etc..

Like I said most people are closed minded, lemmings just following along what they think is true.

If you really wanted to know you would research things, deeply with people who do this on a daily basis

 

I never said anything about hand washing not being effective, so please do not put words in my mouth that is ignorant.

hand washing does work and is very effective in killing the virus as the out layer is fatty and easily broken, once broken the virus is 

no longer able to infect you.

 

also capitalizing PERIOD is cute but really only means it is you opinion, not that is truthful or a scientific fact

 

I know you want me to post things, show you, etc.  I don't waste my time anymore, if you want to know you will find it.

Most people don't, so I do not waste my time with posting anything just to have people tell me it's made up, that is not true

he is not with the government, etc.    

 

I am just trying to share knowledge, truth, I see here, is like most of the population and don't

Believe what you want, right or wrong.  That is how it is

Keep believing your mask is doing something, anything

 

Wish you health and luck

You have know idea whether I or anyone else here has or hasn't done research.  However, I've checked into questions I've had and found on lots of credible websites that say we should wear masks   And that seems to be working and coupled with hand washing  And, what I mean't was that masks and hand washing together have been working.  I didn't say you said anything about hand washing

There is no way we can guarantee 100% protection.  And, no one is saying that we are even trying to do that.  It's about slowing the spread so that we are not overwhelmed and to give time to find a good remedy and/or vaccine.  Masks help with that.  They do not entirely eliminate it. And, when we see your screen name next to some relevant credentials and on some online credible relevant websites and documents, we might pay heed  Who the heck are you and why should we believe you over everything else we've been reading and told? Wish you health and luck PERIOD.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Redhead14

[Redhead14]

2 hours ago, nospam99 said:

I don't need no steenking research. All I need it what I learned three times, over and over again: junior high school, high school, and college.

Based on that learning, I'm going to make four Occam's Razor assumptions. If you think those assumptions don't hold, then ignore my reasoning.

First, I assume this virus spreads LIKE EVERY OTHER AIRBORNE PATHOGEN - by floating in the air.

Second, I assume that the likelihood of a person getting any one particular virus particle is a probability distribution dependent on how long they spend in a field of airborne particles and the density of that field.

Third, I assume the likelihood of the virus overcoming the person's immune response is a probability distribution dependent on the number of individual virus particles that get inside their body.

Fourth, I assume the likelihood of the virus spreading other than by airborne e.g. on a surface is insignificant in comparison to airborne. This assumption does not hold in environments where the viral load is large enough to expect significant settlement on surfaces e.g. a covid-19 ward in a hospital that is not being cleaned.

Now, why masks don't matter:

IT gets YOU through your eyes which are not protected by the mask.

YOU spread IT because your mask leaks, around the edges AND because it's smaller than the tiny holes in the mask. As you wear the mask, the inside of the mask fills up with viri (I love Latin plurals). The fuller the mask gets, the more leakage around the edges and the more viri getting through the tiny holes in the mask. For reference, the last ESTIMATE I saw online about the size of the covid-19 virus was .12 microns.

There is no way we can guarantee 100% protection.  And, no one is saying that we are even trying to do that.  It's about slowing the spread so that we are not overwhelmed and to give time to find a good remedy and/or vaccine.  Masks help with that.  They do not entirely eliminate it. 

[LuckyM]

Now is the time for prudent cautious courage not fear and just cowardice.  I worry about the state's power to dictate our daily lives now and in the future more than the chances of infection.  Statistically your chances of getting sick are extremely low even in big cities considering. it's entire population. I did the math including race age and county. My area is hit hard and I am more vulnerable. and. I stay home most days and nights.  No company. You don't need to be cleaning fanatics unless you feel better as such. I wish you all well.  PS. I hate masks especially black ones 

[nospam99]

@gaius. then it may surprise you that I have a years-long history of reviewing research and data. Almost all (90%+) research for which I've had access to 'look under the rock' (or hood to use another metaphor) has been flawed: poor experimental design, wrong statistical methodology, clearly designed to reach a predetermined conclusion. One example of poor design i.e. failing to ask the right question, that I can cite for the covid-19 situation - I see no indication that diagnosed patients in NYC were asked 'did you ride the subway in the last three weeks?' What do you think the correlation would be? I'll speculate with confidence pretty close to 100%. Add to that likely correlation the causal mechanism of what great petri dishes subway cars are .... well that's a research study that I'll be surprised to see done. The conclusion wouldn't be politically correct.

[heartwhole2]

For those wanting to read the science (understanding that the timeline is such that most articles have not been peer-reviewed yet), google: 

Face Masks Against COVID-19: An Evidence Review
Universal use of face masks for success against COVID-19: evidence and implications for prevention policies
Wearing face masks in the community during the COVID-19 pandemic: altruism and solidarity
Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: a systematic review and meta-analysis
Masks help stop the spread of coronavirus – the science is simple and I’m one of 100 experts urging governors to require public mask-wearing

As one article (Use of facemasks to limit COVID-19 transmission) puts it: "Ideal use of NPIs [Nonpharmaceutical interventions] to limit disease transmission requires application of multiple partly effective strategies which are introduced in stages, or in “layers”, over the course of the pandemic, depending on the severity of the situation and local transmission patterns. There is evidence that when NPIs are used in a combined manner they can act in a complementary or even synergetic way, so that by overlapping they “fill the gaps” in the “layers” and gradually restrict transmission." The fact that masks may be only partly effective does not negate their important role in reducing transmission when combined with other strategies. 

[Redhead14]

1 hour ago, LuckyM said:

I worry about the state's power to dictate our daily lives now and in the future more than the chances of infection.

The "State" didn't just impose lock downs without significant reason and out of the blue, etc.  just because it wanted to be a dick and it didn't behave the way China's government did either.  Our forefathers came here to escape an oppressive government that offered no protections for it's citizens.  They came here and established a "better" government that includes protecting the citizens.  Even they understood that government is necessary in some form in order to have order.  They didn't come here to create a giant free-for-all playground for people to do whatever the F they want all the time and to the exclusion of having concern for others/neighbors, etc.

Edited May 17, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed derogatory remark

[Redhead14]

I read a couple of stories about people who won't wear masks to the store, etc. and clerks having to enforce mask-wearing rules.  There are plenty of establishments who have signs out front that say "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" now the signs should say "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Mask, No Service". 

[sothereiwas]

1 hour ago, nospam99 said:

I see no indication that diagnosed patients in NYC were asked 'did you ride the subway in the last three weeks?' What do you think the correlation would be? I'll speculate with confidence pretty close to 100%. Add to that likely correlation the causal mechanism of what great petri dishes subway cars are .... well that's a research study that I'll be surprised to see done. The conclusion wouldn't be politically correct.

Thank you, sir. 

It's not just that the subway is a closed can of germbags, it's also that people have their hands all over surfaces inside that car, and they enter and exit with a frequency that confounds all but the most robust attempts at contact tracing. It's a virus spreading machine. Yet they left it running. Brilliant. 

[amaysngrace]

In a way I think the exposure will be beneficial down the road since this virus is now the new normal. 

I think it’s better to better to be exposed, fight it, build antibodies for future defense than to be paranoid and sterile. 

But what do I know?

[sothereiwas]

3 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

In a way I think the exposure will be beneficial down the road since this virus is now the new normal. 

For people who are unlikely to die or be seriously injured, it's probably a good bet. Those in higher risk situations would probably be well served to wait for effective treatments and/or a vaccine. 

[heartwhole2]

16 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

In a way I think the exposure will be beneficial down the road since this virus is now the new normal. 

I think it’s better to better to be exposed, fight it, build antibodies for future defense than to be paranoid and sterile. 

But what do I know?

Since wearing a mask is more to protect others than yourself, this thinking shouldn't factor into your decision about wearing a mask. Indeed, if you are hoping to contract the virus, then you have even more reason to protect others. Read up on super spreader events . . . do you want to be personally responsible for the deaths of multiple people you come in contact with? 

[amaysngrace]

3 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

Since wearing a mask is more to protect others than yourself, this thinking shouldn't factor into your decision about wearing a mask. Indeed, if you are hoping to contract the virus, then you have even more reason to protect others. Read up on super spreader events . . . do you want to be personally responsible for the deaths of multiple people you come in contact with? 

What?  Please take your anger elsewhere.

I always wear my mask.  Gloves too sometimes. 

[SumGuy]

16 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

In a way I think the exposure will be beneficial down the road since this virus is now the new normal. 

I think it’s better to better to be exposed, fight it, build antibodies for future defense than to be paranoid and sterile. 

But what do I know?

Perhaps that you and no one knows yet how long or even if you can build enough antibodies to provide a defense, or how and likely is it one can be an asymptomatic carrier.

On the latter it is not so much that I'm concerned it will kill or maim me, it's just the older folks who are very likely to have health conditions that it means a death sentence for I am concerned about. 

Answers to these questions could be had if there was a will, but I get the impression it is more no one in power wants to answer these questions in case the answers are not what they like.  Also, those in power seem to have no worries and far less risk than those they govern.  They have enough wealth and influence to get themselves and everyone around them tested every day.  So why should they care?   Once they have insulated themselves with their millions and access to instant and the best health care, people dying is a good way to lower health care expenses...what hurts them is people not out their working and making them money. 

Not that being jobless helps someone, I'm all for people being able to make ends meet and get back to work.

Yet I think getting people back to work is all about keeping the rich rich, keeping the power in power (it is all about the economy) and not about helping the not so rich stay afloat because of how it is rolled out.  Instead of mandating even minimal protections for workers, it seems we want to pass laws to shield employers from any liability, no matter how egregious the acts, from the work conditions. 

[heartwhole2]

11 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

What?  Please take your anger elsewhere.

I always wear my mask.  Gloves too sometimes. 

As you can see I am not the only one who took your comment to mean that you were not going to wear a mask.  I'm glad that's not what you meant.