Separated from wife but lockdown prevents him moving out

[Kiki55]

3 hours ago, Crazelnut said:

Can you clarify scenario 1 again, please? What concrete evidence will you accept? 

That I am still struggling with. I don't know. I don't see how he has had any time to look he is with me working most the time... he has even started lacking on preparing for this job - which by the way he does not have an interview for yet. I feel he is burying hid head in the sand a bit. He loves me, perhaps scared of starting a whole new life, wondering if I will desert him. With all due respect to him and without coming across as big headed but he is not the best looking man, I guess when you fall in love with somebody you don't really know what it is about them and I am quite attractive, blonde, slim, have a lot of (unwanted) male attention. I really don't like to say it like this but it's true, he has some insecurities about how I may 'leave him' albeit said in jest but I think he may actually think this. So I am really struggling with what I would deem acceptable on Friday and whether I will be being too hasty or harsh with him. After all, this started in February but we didn't become investing feelings until mid March so the time period is small, but it's been intense. We haven't ever been on a date yet we have spent 9 hours a day together, cooking, food shopping, walks etc. there are so many layers to this Affair.  He jokes that he may just be a pass time for me during the lockdown and when it's over I'll go find somebody better... 

[Kiki55]

47 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

 

Me 3, although I'm not sure which scenario may play out.

Being at your house will give him opportunities to talk to you, spin stories and excuses. Seeing him will cause you distress and eventually he'll sense that and try to take advantage.

If you're going to go NC, you need to go NC, IMO. That would mean banning him from your home. If you're going to do the 4 week deadline thing, he needs to be banned for the 4 weeks. He may turn it around on you and claim you're putting up walls, etc, but you only plan on NC if he's found to be deceiving you about moving out, etc, so I think that would just be a tactic on his part.

If we end up with a NC scenario, he will not be coming to my home. We will attempt to work remotely, separately as best we can. This is manageable. It'll be the evenings and weekends that we will notice. Like I said, we rarely go 20 minites without texting, I honestly don't know how the conversations still flow but they do so naturally. I really need to think, and fast, about what i would deem acceptable to me on Friday... and manageable/realistic for him. Right now I've got nothing planned and this is really bad. A need clear goals, clear evidence. More proof of the separation... and a good honest chat, of which, as you know, I haven't been able to bring up. 

So complicated... I can't help but wonder how/why I let myself get into this. But all I need to think about now is knowing for sure 100% that if/when I walk away, it's because he has genuinely not made the effort and/or never will. 

If its all genuine, I don't want to lose him because I've pushed him while he's going through a rough time - I need to walk away knowing this is definetly not the case. 

[RebeccaR]

When he says you may just be seeing him to pass time during lockdown, he’s... projecting. This is the best evidence that he’s just seeing you to pass the time.

After all, you left your marriage and kicked your spouse out. He didn’t.

 I don’t think scenario 5 is the case - he hasn’t concocted an elaborate thing to make you look like a fool; in his view he’s just been enjoying himself.

And as others have noted, NC is not a way to get your man by making him miss you. It’s a way to heal from a permanent breakup. Do you really want years of on-off NC like Lilkat, Becca, Lurker? These stories all end the same way.

You left your marriage for this guy but he doesn’t want to leave his,.

[RebeccaR]

Also, I don’t understand how this poor man gets a pass for being too busy to look for an apartment. Does everyone quit their job when they decide to move? I guess between driving 100 miles to see you each day and keeping the apartment search secret from his wife, it’s not easy.

[Crazelnut]

Let us help with the concrete evidence thing. A signed lease with a move in date. A signed contract with a moving company. if he's not moving himself. Accept nothing less. 

[Starswillshine]

If things dont work out like you want, do not expect him to be honest. Never expect them to honest. A man will never cop to just using someone. Never. They spin. They want to be the bad guy plus they still want use out of you. A cheating man is not one that has very much integrity, so dont think that this supposed great love he has for you will encourage him to be fully honest. They never are. 

[Beca L]

Kiki55,

I really feel for you and I’m sorry that you’ve got yourself in to this predicament. I know you want to believe him and you love him but I really don’t think you can believe him. He has proved himself to be untrustworthy as he’s been lying to his wife for weeks, he surely must spin a few in your direction as well. He wouldn’t refer to them as lies more just not telling you things because he doesn’t want to hurt you ! The usually MM excuse. 
If he doesn’t come up with scenario 1 on Friday (which is most likely) then I think you should request that he start looking at properties to rent ASAP with a view to move in by July 1st. If this doesn’t happen (with no exceptions at all) then you will walk for good and start NC. You will deal with your divorce and marriage ending and once healed you will look for a single and honest man who will put you first. 
 

1 hour ago, Kiki55 said:

he is not the best looking man,

 

1 hour ago, Kiki55 said:

he has some insecurities about how I may 'leave him'

This touched a nerve with me. My xmm wasn’t the best looker and he was very scruffy and untidy. Everyone I know has commented that I was far too good for him, attractive, stylish, good personality. They all said he was ‘punching well above his weight!’ When he went back to his wife he did say that he was worried that he would be a disappointment to me and I would dump him and then he would end up on his own. That really scared him. I think he knows his wife will never leave him so she was a far safer bet. So he went back. 
Why do strong, intelligent, attractive women like us settle for these lying, cowardly, deceitful wimps who want their cake and to eat it. 
You deserve better but if you still want to pursue things with him, ask him to move out by the 1st or you are moving on. 

[RebeccaR]

So Becca’s MM and Kiki’s MM aren’t good looking. Last year’s poster “asaysno” also claimed her MM was not attractive. But both he and Kiki’s MM are very successful financially. I don’t remember about Becca’s. For a male, financial success is an alternative to looks in terms of attractiveness. 
 

Why are all these so-called ugly men able to attract successful career women and entice them to leave their marriages, while happy to stay put? It’s an interesting question.

LilKat said her MM was really good looking, which at least makes sense why she was interested.

[BaileyB]

16 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

So Becca’s MM and Kiki’s MM aren’t good looking. 

I have to wonder if that’s part of the draw - they are just average blokes - nice guys who are in bad marriages, feeling misunderstood and unhappy at home... just looking for love... what’s not to believe? He looks like an honest and trustworthy guy... For some, myself included, physical appearance could be a real turn off in that he’s too good looking, he could have his pick of women and potentially already has  - I wouldn’t trust that at all...

Edited June 3, 2020 by BaileyB

[Beca L]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I have to wonder if that’s part of the draw - they are just average blokes - nice guys who are in bad marriages, feeling misunderstood and unhappy at home... just looking for love... For some, myself included, physical appearance could be a real turn off in that he’s a good looking man who could have his pick and potentially already has  - I wouldn’t trust that at all...

I agree with you about good looking men. In regards to my xmm, I was never attracted to him physically, he pursued me big time and even then I wasn't sure but he has a great personality, he's good fun to be with, and tbh we just had so much to talk about. We did have a great connection and you are correct, he was an average bloke, nice guy in a bad marriage, misunderstood, unhappy and looking for love. However even when he had found it with me, we were happy together, it came at great expense, so he decide to cut and run. 

That has been the hardest thing for me to deal with, rejection and from someone who didn't really deserve me in the first place as well as him returning to something he had been trying to get away from for so long. 

[RebeccaR]

To address Beca’s last point, I think it’s hard to accept that you bared your soul and shared private moments with someone who could then walk away so easily. I understand that pain. Ironically I imagine it’s no different than what the unsuspecting wives feel. 

[Beca L]

3 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

To address Beca’s last point, I think it’s hard to accept that you bared your soul and shared private moments with someone who could then walk away so easily. I understand that pain. Ironically I imagine it’s no different than what the unsuspecting wives feel. 

I agree about the unsuspecting wives, however in my case their marriage was not great and had not been for a very long time. His 3 adult sons admitted that, W has admitted that since his return. What I'm trying to say is that I agree no spouse deserves to be cheated on but when he left her she was well aware of her part in the break down of their marriage and they had both been unhappy for a long time. Marriages sometimes run their course but people are sometimes to scared to take a leap in to the unknown without their side kick so they cheat and test the waters before they leave, they line up their back up plan. 

When my xmm left it was completely out of the blue for me, I was going along believing all was ok and he was deeply in love. Really he was in love but he missed his sons, he was sad and he hadn't spoken to me about this and he felt terrible guilt about what he had done to his family. They were all getting along nicely without him and suddenly he realised he was no longer apart of their gang any more, they were moving on without him. This was enough to panic him in to returning. 

Not sure if I will ever completely get over this but I'm slowly trying. I just want to prevent Kiki55 heading for the same fate. 

[BaileyB]

40 minutes ago, Beca L said:

In regards to my xmm, I was never attracted to him physically, he pursued me big time and even then I wasn't sure but he has a great personality, he's good fun to be with, and tbh we just had so much to talk about. We did have a great connection.

To be fair, I could say the same for my partner. He is attractive to me, but I wouldn’t say he is “good looking.” I was very attracted to his personality, he made me laugh, we had common interests and lots of fun together, and I like how I feel when i’m with him. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. Who can really explain what attracts us to a partner.

Edited June 4, 2020 by BaileyB

[Kiki55]

6 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

When he says you may just be seeing him to pass time during lockdown, he’s... projecting. This is the best evidence that he’s just seeing you to pass the time.

After all, you left your marriage and kicked your spouse out. He didn’t.

 I don’t think scenario 5 is the case - he hasn’t concocted an elaborate thing to make you look like a fool; in his view he’s just been enjoying himself.

And as others have noted, NC is not a way to get your man by making him miss you. It’s a way to heal from a permanent breakup. Do you really want years of on-off NC like Lilkat, Becca, Lurker? These stories all end the same way.

You left your marriage for this guy but he doesn’t want to leave his,.

Most of our conversation a remain light, we have had a couple that have been deep and he has told me he wouldn't wake up at 5am every day to travel all this way to 'pass time' he said he does it because he loves me and wants to be with me. I am not saying this because I believe him, I am just saying what he has said to me. 

I have said to him that I have proved myself but I know my marriage was essentially over anyway... I know I would not of strayed if I'd been happy, I would not have fallen for another man and as I done it only 2 weeks into this Affair, I know and he knows that he was not the sole reason for leaving. He could use this as an excuse to stay with her. 

[Kiki55]

5 hours ago, Beca L said:

Kiki55,

I really feel for you and I’m sorry that you’ve got yourself in to this predicament. I know you want to believe him and you love him but I really don’t think you can believe him. He has proved himself to be untrustworthy as he’s been lying to his wife for weeks, he surely must spin a few in your direction as well. He wouldn’t refer to them as lies more just not telling you things because he doesn’t want to hurt you ! The usually MM excuse. 
If he doesn’t come up with scenario 1 on Friday (which is most likely) then I think you should request that he start looking at properties to rent ASAP with a view to move in by July 1st. If this doesn’t happen (with no exceptions at all) then you will walk for good and start NC. You will deal with your divorce and marriage ending and once healed you will look for a single and honest man who will put you first. 
 

 

This touched a nerve with me. My xmm wasn’t the best looker and he was very scruffy and untidy. Everyone I know has commented that I was far too good for him, attractive, stylish, good personality. They all said he was ‘punching well above his weight!’ When he went back to his wife he did say that he was worried that he would be a disappointment to me and I would dump him and then he would end up on his own. That really scared him. I think he knows his wife will never leave him so she was a far safer bet. So he went back. 
Why do strong, intelligent, attractive women like us settle for these lying, cowardly, deceitful wimps who want their cake and to eat it. 
You deserve better but if you still want to pursue things with him, ask him to move out by the 1st or you are moving on. 

Thank you for your compassion... I wish I could turn the clock back and never let myself fall like this but sadly, I think I would end up doing it all again. 

I know that I have said to you all that come 5th June, I will be strong and stand my ground as such but I also believe that I am in a position to move the goal posts without him actually realising I have. I never clarified exactly what I wanted by this date. I told him unwanted proof of their separation, he has given me thst, albeit quite a weak proof but nevertheless he has done that. For me, I still need some more proof... He knows that I know he has not had the time to look for a place, he knows that I know, he hasn't been able to view any properties. So I can't simply act shocked tomorrow when he hasn't come up with something. So tomorrow I want from him solid active searching and viewing if properties and he must be out of the house by July 1st. Or it is over. 

The reason for the new job.... 

He is a consultant at my place, not a permanent person, he obviously earns a lot consulting and due to IR35 guidelines, he thought he would be best taking up the opportunity of a perm role but this came at a huge salary reduction. This perm role starts in 4 weeks and because of the virus, new IR35 has been delayed for 12 months meaning he could of stayed consulting. He believes he needs the higher salary now to aid in paying for his divorce, new place etc. His new potential role is consulting elsewhere. 

So again, he has an answer for everything... but I do know this IR35 thing to be true. 

[Yosemite]

49 minutes ago, Kiki55 said:

I never clarified exactly what I wanted by this date. I told him unwanted proof of their separation, he has given me thst, albeit quite a weak proof but nevertheless he has done that.

Do you mean the Whatsapp message? I wouldn't count that as proof, not even weak proof...it's meaningless, too easily faked.

It's his responsibility to come up with something...if he loves you sooooo very much and wants you for more than sex, he wouldn't want doubts swirling in your head when he shows up with nothing on Friday. You were very clear that you needed proof by the 5th or you were walking. So, if he shows up with nothing, he's obviously willing to risk you saying, "ok, that's it, we're over" because you were very adamant that that's what you were going to do.

It's only natural that your first thought if he shows up with nothing would be, "does he not care if I walk? Does he want me to walk?" If he was serious about you, he wouldn't want to risk putting those ideas in your head because they could cause your love for him to wither and die. So if he shows up with nothing on Friday, he's showing how important you are to him i.e. not very.

Think about it the other way, if he wanted proof from you by Friday, what would you show up with? A giant nothing burger and a story about prepping for a new job? No way, you'd come with concrete proof. (How do you prep for a job that you don't even have an interview for anyway?)

Proof he could bring on Friday: He could have confirmation emails of at least 3 appointments to view apartments that he shows you and invites you to go see with him.

54 minutes ago, Kiki55 said:

He is a consultant at my place, not a permanent person

So he goes from job to job consulting here and there for a year or two at a time? Makes sense that he would have an affair at every job and then when his contract is over, the affair is over. Love them and leave them. I hope that you don't think that you're the first and I seriously doubt that you'll be the last. 

[elaine567]

9 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

Why are all these so-called ugly men able to attract successful career women and entice them to leave their marriages, while happy to stay put? It’s an interesting question.

Because all these women are "vulnerable" they are are in bad marriages, marriages where they are not cherished,  not listened to,  or they are single and they are fed up of dating guys who don't care.
Along comes the MM.
Being married he has had the rough edges knocked off him, and is good at talking to women, good at saying the right things, good at pushing the right buttons. 
He presents himself as a better prospect than her husband, her "no good" bf, her single life...
He doesn't need to be good looking as instant attraction is not his forte, he needs to creep up slowly and persuade women to give him a chance. 
He doesn't want the instant brush off  "Leave me alone, you re married" , he is going in for the slow burn.
He becomes the good friend, then the suitor and finally the lover...
It is good old fashioned "wooing" and women are suckers for it.

Kat's situation was slightly different, it was not the same slow burn. They were both on Ashley Madison, so the fact he was good looking and a "catch" was I guess why she picked him in the first place to have an affair with. BUT she was in the same position, same bad marriage, not cherished or listened to...
"vulnerable" to the first guy who would show her care, love and attention.

[Beca L]

41 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

He doesn't want the instant brush off  "Leave me alone, you re married" , he is going in for the slow burn.
He becomes the good friend, then the suitor and finally the lover...
It is good old fashioned "wooing" and women are suckers for it.

You describe my situation exactly !!

100% 

I was lonely and vulnerable. Single since the end of a bad marriage (5 years earlier) and was flattered by all his attention and wooing. The only thing you missed off was I think I thought I was his rescuer from a terrible, unhappy marriage. He told me he was desperately lonely and miserable, desperate for real love and emotional connection. 
We were saving each other !!!

[lana-banana]

5 hours ago, Kiki55 said:

I know that I have said to you all that come 5th June, I will be strong and stand my ground as such but I also believe that I am in a position to move the goal posts without him actually realising I have. I never clarified exactly what I wanted by this date...So tomorrow I want from him solid active searching and viewing if properties and he must be out of the house by July 1st. Or it is over. 

This just made me so sad. You aren't trying to trick him into not noticing you moved the goalposts; you're trying to trick *yourself*. I assure you he knows the difference between June 5th and July 1st. You are the one who has to be convinced things are still on track.

All else aside, have you asked yourself why someone that ostensibly loves you isn't jumping at the chance to put your mind at ease and prove how much he wants to be together? As others have said, if he asked the same of you, you'd find a way. You'd do absolutely everything in your power. Why isn't he doing that for you?

[elaine567]

41 minutes ago, Beca L said:

We were saving each other !!!

Only he didn't really need saved, he thought he did for a while, but not really...
Maybe you were just unlucky and had his three sons been on board then it may have worked or maybe not, the whole "gang" may have included his wife too...
You were competing against a long history of family stuff, not an easy one to win.

[elaine567]

5 hours ago, Yosemite said:

So he goes from job to job consulting here and there for a year or two at a time? Makes sense that he would have an affair at every job and then when his contract is over, the affair is over. Love them and leave them. I hope that you don't think that you're the first and I seriously doubt that you'll be the last. 

That did cross my mind too, sorry to say, as soon as the suggestion of a new job came up.
Difficult to maintain a workplace affair when you no longer work together. 
 

[Crazelnut]

This really makes me sad, kiki. Moving your own goal posts hurts only YOU. You have no boundaries, no willpower, and no self respect when it comes to this man. You're putting up a good front by establishing a deadline, but it's a false one. You know that you will accept whatever scrap he throws you tomorrow and carry on. And by doing so, you will establish a precedent that he can walk all over your boundaries and ignore your needs. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

All else aside, have you asked yourself why someone that ostensibly loves you isn't jumping at the chance to put your mind at ease and prove how much he wants to be together? As others have said, if he asked the same of you, you'd find a way. You'd do absolutely everything in your power. Why isn't he doing that for you?

Especially considering he goes to great lengths to assure you that he loves you, that he’s not just passing time with you right now...He is capable of reassuring you, sharing his feelings and thoughts such that you feel secure in the knowledge that he loves you and wants to be with you... why can he not show you he is serious about moving out? 

One is words, easily said. The other takes action. 

Quote

we have had a couple that have been deep and he has told me he wouldn't wake up at 5am every day to travel all this way to 'pass time' he said he does it because he loves me and wants to be with me. 

I don’t know that it would matter to me what he brings to the table tomorrow. The fact that he has kept me waiting anxiously, that he hasn’t communicated with me and I don’t feel like I could talk openly with him about something so important... that would wear on me and I don’t think I could do it for another month. I would be very resentful that he has made me do it at all...

Edited June 4, 2020 by BaileyB

[Kiki55]

1 hour ago, lana-banana said:

This just made me so sad. You aren't trying to trick him into not noticing you moved the goalposts; you're trying to trick *yourself*. I assure you he knows the difference between June 5th and July 1st. You are the one who has to be convinced things are still on track.

All else aside, have you asked yourself why someone that ostensibly loves you isn't jumping at the chance to put your mind at ease and prove how much he wants to be together? As others have said, if he asked the same of you, you'd find a way. You'd do absolutely everything in your power. Why isn't he doing that for you?

I'm feeling pretty distant right now with him. I think I'm realising he has no intention of bringing anything to the table tomorrow..... 

[Beca L]

50 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Only he didn't really need saved, he thought he did for a while, but not really...
Maybe you were just unlucky and had his three sons been on board then it may have worked or maybe not, the whole "gang" may have included his wife too...
You were competing against a long history of family stuff, not an easy one to win.

Thanks Elaine. I was including her in the ‘gang’ and I sometimes feel duped about her but if I’m honest with myself I was very naive about the long history, families ties. I just didn’t see it at the time that he wouldn’t be able to just move on from that. 
I just don’t want kiki55 to go through the same. I don’t think her mm has been married as long but it is still a massive pull to walk away from you kids and not live with them any more. 
As we predicted she is already getting ready to move the goal posts on Friday. I hope she can be clear and concise about what she is prepared to accept by July 1st and if it doesn’t happen that she will walk away, head held high. 
Btw are you a counsellor ? Psychologist ? 
you always give such sound and sensible opinions and advice.