Covid 19 Testing

[d0nnivain]

we will never know if the drug prevented the President from getting it.  We will know if it's effective based on the healthcare worker control group but even then the PPE should also help with prevention. 

[elaine567]

0

40 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

How are we going to know if it prevented him from getting it????  We don't know if it prevents anyone from getting it yet. 

We will know if it is effective once the trial results become known.
He is taking a chance yes but why not?
Obviously people don't recruit 40000 health care workers globally to trial drugs that have no chance of working.

[Redhead14]

22 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

0

We will know if it is effective once the trial results become known.
He is taking a chance yes but why not?
Obviously people don't recruit 40000 health care workers globally to trial drugs that have no chance of working.

My stance is that he is the President of the United States and the country is in crisis.  Now is not the time to be testing anything on him especially given his age.  Why not?  Because we don't know what we don't know and it's the same reason that antivaxxers are afraid of vaccines - they aren't willing to risk the lives of their children even on an outside chance that it would harm or kill them.  The risk in this particular case outweighs the benefits for sure.  He is willing to take it for no other reason than to be able to tell people they should take it and look like some kind of hero for his supporters.  And, why is he taking it anyway?  He apparently doesn't feel any concern about getting it.  He doesn't even bother to wear masks or worry about distancing????  Why is he so quick to take the drug if he's not worried anyway?????  Its bullsh*t theatrics for the election.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Redhead14

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, Redhead14 said:

It just doesn't seem like a bright idea to use a person in a position of power as a guinea pig

Of course not. Such tests are supposed to be randomised confidential trials.

The person who did the fund-raising for the polio vaccine in the USA, Basil O'Connor, was close to FDR who was diagnosed with polio age 39, though the symptoms he had would be diagnosed as GBS today @d0nnivain...anyway the whole emergency testing vaccines on children situation worked out to ultimately irradicate the disease here- except for those 10 children who died and 40 000 people who contracted polio in 1955's Cutter Incident of flawed vaccine, which is what lead to today's rigorous testing protocols before administering vaccines and control protocols on producing pharmaceuticals.

It also shows how skewed the funding and perception of illness and risk can become through publicity: 'National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis succeeded in collecting $66.9 million in 1954 for 100,000 new patients, while in the case of about 10 million patients with heart diseases only $11.3 million were donated.' ( wiki ) 'Goal displacement' social scientists call it, when a cause takes on a life of its own and the big picture perspective in health and public policy is lost.

Pandemics cause panic, it's important to think it through before something becomes accepted policy.

Mass testing is a great way for WHO to map the pandemic, but I don't see it as producing any answers or new 'facts' right now, and doctors definitely need to have a stockpile of tests for dealing with current ongoing infections.

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Ellener
spelling

[elaine567]

17 minutes ago, Redhead14 said:

The risk in this particular case outweighs the benefits for sure.

I don't see it that way at all.
Drug that has been in use for decades and is considered very safe vs Covid-19 that if he gets it, it will likely kill him.

[sothereiwas]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I don't see it that way at all.
Drug that has been in use for decades and is considered very safe vs Covid-19 that if he gets it, it will likely kill him.

Yeah, I'm fairly certain he has some of the best medical care on earth and is being monitored for the rare side effects. 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

I don't see it that way at all.
Drug that has been in use for decades and is considered very safe vs Covid-19 that if he gets it, it will likely kill him.

It's not 'considered safe', it causes heart arrhythmia, and in the 5 % of Covid-19 patients who become critically ill heart failure is a leading cause of death reported so far, hence the need for testing to see if any benefits are worth any risks.

It's irresponsible to promote untested treatments, especially from a bully pulpit.

 

[sothereiwas]

3 minutes ago, Ellener said:

It's not 'considered safe'

It's approved for use in humans by the FDA. That's a pretty good indicator that it's reasonably safe to take under the supervision of a physician. Also, consider changing your news source. 

[elaine567]

Those Covid -19 patients were very sick anyway.
Hydroxychloroqine has been used for decades to treat rheumatoid disease, side effects are uncommon  and it is considered to be a very safe drug.
I personally hope it works for Trump and for all those healthcare teams.

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Those Covid -19 patients were very sick anyway.

Something like 80% of COVID-19 patients who go on a ventilator die. Using the same logic as some are using for hydroxychloroquine ... well I'm sure those dots are not hard to connect. 

[Redhead14]

13 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Those Covid -19 patients were very sick anyway.
Hydroxychloroqine has been used for decades to treat rheumatoid disease, side effects are uncommon  and it is considered to be a very safe drug.
I personally hope it works for Trump and for all those healthcare teams.

I hope it works for the healthcare teams too.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, sothereiwas said:

It's approved for use in humans by the FDA. That's a pretty good indicator that it's reasonably safe to take under the supervision of a physician. Also, consider changing your news source. 

I get my news from various sources, and none of these treatments have been tested for Covid-19 patients, the trials only just began.

'The FDA issued a safety warning on April 24 that was headlined, "FDA cautions against use of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for COVID-19 outside of the hospital setting or a clinical trial due to risk of heart rhythm problems." ' ( CNN and various news outlets reported this )

This is not a political issue, and it's not helpful to undermine medical trials with premature publicisation and unnecessary politicisation.

 

 

[sothereiwas]

10 minutes ago, Ellener said:

This is not a political issue

If only.

Doctors use approved medicines for off label uses with some regularity. Look up virtually any older medicine and it's very common for one or more common off label uses to be listed. The risks associated with these older drugs, including hydroxychloroquine, are generally well understood and can be well managed under adequate medical supervision. 

[amaysngrace]

2 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

we will never know if the drug prevented the President from getting it.  

Maybe the President needed to take it in order for people to trust it enough to take it themselves. 

Not everybody hates the guy.  Some think he’s okay.

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, sothereiwas said:

can be well managed under adequate medical supervision. 

of which there is an international shortage due to the pandemic. No need for further demands on services or confusion about what works. Social distancing works, and is the easiest way to prevent further infections right now, along with face coverings and handwashing.

The research and treatment decisions are best left to the professionals, and people in influential positions need to know their place and exhibit professionalism within their own field.

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, Ellener said:

of which there is an international shortage

I get the feeling that no matter how many excuses I disprove, there will be an endless line of fresh new ones from which a new excuse will be selected. Let me just finish up by saying we have no such shortage of medical personnel, and locales which do have such a shortage are free to abstain from off label use. 

[Art_Critic]

1 hour ago, Ellener said:

It's not 'considered safe', it causes heart arrhythmia,

 

Really, this is just misinformation.. stop

Hydroxychloroquine was approved for medical use in the United States in 1955.[2] It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, the safest and most effective medicines needed in a health system.[7] In 2017, it was the 128th most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than five million prescriptions.[8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine

 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Art_Critic said:

Really, this is just misinformation.. stop

Hydroxychloroquine was approved for medical use in the United States in 1955.[2] It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, the safest and most effective medicines needed in a health system.[7] In 2017, it was the 128th most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than five million prescriptions.[8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine

 

Misinformation? Not approved for Covid-19 it is not, or any other respiratory disease, hence the required trials to ascertain outcome and safety.

There are 460 medicines on that list, just because a drug is on the list doesn't mean it can be used safely in any situation.

All drugs have risks which are balanced against necessity and beneficial outcomes, especially when used 'off-label'. The criteria for the list includes things like cost-effectiveness and whether specialist equipment or resources will be required to use the drug. 

 

 

[Art_Critic]

44 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Misinformation?

I never said it was approved for Covid-19, the CDC has said it was though but only in hospital settings and yes MISINFORMATION, you have said it was not safe.

The drug is one of the safest drugs on the market today and is on the list of WHO's safest drugs and has over 5 million scripts.. so it IS SAFE as well as being used since 1955

How hard is that to see...,

 

[elaine567]

This is not being used for Covid-19, Trump does not have Covid-19. 

[sothereiwas]

16 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

This is not being used for Covid-19, Trump does not have Covid-19. 

Interestingly the preliminary results seem to indicate that any positive effect it might have occur if it's started early in the course of the sickness, so maybe that's what has prompted the studies where it's being evaluated as a prophylactic?

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Art_Critic said:

I never said it was approved for Covid-19, the CDC has said it was though but only in hospital settings and yes MISINFORMATION, you have said it was not safe.

The drug is one of the safest drugs on the market today and is on the list of WHO's safest drugs and has over 5 million scripts.. so it IS SAFE as well as being used since 1955

How hard is that to see...,

 

Did you even read your own link you supplied? 

Controlled trials are the only way to ascertain any usefulness for the pandemic. I can't even imagine most doctors would prescribe it at this stage to treat or prevent Covid-19 as the US President seems to be suggesting he has. Now he says he'll stop taking it 'in a day or two'; this is not helpful whatever his intentions, it's not part of any accepted medical protocol.

That's what happened with polio vaccine in 1955, rolling out a solution too quickly with the Cutter Incident and why the federal government now regulates use and production of drugs and vaccines via the testing protocols.

US politics is beside the point of this thread but the thread shows how easy it is to have confusion and descend into side-arguments.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Ellener
spelling

[Art_Critic]

19 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Did you even read your own link you supplied? 

 

Yes I did...

 

[Art_Critic]

2 hours ago, Art_Critic said:

Really, this is just misinformation.. stop

Hydroxychloroquine was approved for medical use in the United States in 1955.[2] It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, the safest and most effective medicines needed in a health system.[7] In 2017, it was the 128th most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than five million prescriptions.[8][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine

 

Let me me requote  it again and add this:

On 17 March 2020, the AIFA Scientific Technical Commission of the Italian Medicines Agency expressed a favorable opinion on including the off-label use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19.[42]

 

 

[Redhead14]

16 minutes ago, Art_Critic said:

Let me me requote  it again and add this:

On 17 March 2020, the AIFA Scientific Technical Commission of the Italian Medicines Agency expressed a favorable opinion on including the off-label use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19.[42]

 

 

Hummmm, let's see, right around the same time that Trump started touting hydroxycholoroquine, some scientific commission specifically published a "favorable opinion" regarding off-label use?????  Is that the source Trump cited for supporting his decision????  I'd also love to see their funding records to see if they've received any large donations lately . . .

 I'm not going to put anything in my system based on the "favorable opinion" of some obscure Italian "commission".   We might as well take Trump's favorable opinion regarding the ingestion of bleach. 

Anyone can go out on the web and find something/anything that will support a particular viewpoint or position, etc. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Redhead14