When did you stop taking all of the blame ?

[k100danny]

When youre relationship ended did you put all of the blame of why it didn't work on yourself for a while? 

Me and my ex of 8 years broke up 11 days ago and don't get me wrong I knew what i did wrong in the relationship but i think because I didn't really initiate the break up I felt abandoned. I must be clear though this isn't 100% the case, I asked her to leave because she mentioned not feeling loved and that she was worried we wouldn't be able to salvage our relationship so she had considered moving out to see if that helped, I obviously didn't think it would and asked her to leave.

 

I did put all of the blame for it on me though for the first week, said i would change ect and that i still very much loved her. When i said this i believed it to be true but reflecting i can now see things we both did wrong, The love had started to fade but we still were comfortable but could be very spiteful sometimes towards each other out of frustration, I think we both wanted the love to come back and still very much cared but went through the death rattle. It got that bad that towards the end i would say i was emotionally abusive, and her but to a much lesser extent. I know the things that triggered me but my actions were still very wrong.

 

Looking back I can see key points in our relationship that we didn't handle very well and found it very hard to communicate. We have said down the line we hope to be friends, I think she wanted to kind of stay friends straight away but i said that can't be until either of us can see the other with someone else and be happy for them because if we do, at some point someone moves on and the other will be even more hurt. We have chatted a few times via text and i do genuinely think we both want what is best for the other but still struggle to understand why we weren't right.

 

I spoke to her yesterday and explained how that if she really needed anything (she suffers with depression) that i was there but i couldn't be there as a true friend or even know if we would want to be friends for a long time. I also expressed how i was sorry for asking to try again and that with reflection I can see what i miss is not what we had before the break up, its what we had years ago when we genuinely did loving things for each other. Im am just writing this as i feel it's an important step in my getting over the relationship and moving into therapy (which i already go to) but now thinking i understand why i do things a bit more and being able to work on those things.

[FMW]

Given normal circumstances, where neither partner did anything really egregious, it's normal to go through phases of assessing blame.  Both partners have a part in how things worked out.  That means it's good to accept your portion of the blame, work through it, learn from it and hopefully be prepared for a better relationship with someone else in the future.

The goal is to get to the point of forgiving yourself for what you feel you did wrong and also forgive her for what you feel she did wrong.  It just takes time.  11 days is way too early to expect to be anywhere near that point of acceptance and moving on.  After an 8 year relationship you won't get to that point quickly.  Just keep working on it.      

[scooby-philly]

Agree 100% with @FMW - not counting situations where someone cheats, someone gets convicted of a crime, rape/molestation, severe financial problems (like a partner blowing 100,000 in savings and leaving a family destitute), etc., - there's a natural ebb/flow to the "blame", especially for the "dumpee" if they were dumped in an immature, really unexpected, and really egregious manner. I can't imagine in a "normal breakup" the dumpee, if they're emotionally mature and healthy, not coming to a point where they can't look back 6 months, a year, or more later and say - even if I wasn't to "blame" for the split or for the reasoning that caused the split, that they played a role in letting the relationship get to a point where the other person felt compelled to leave. Now again, there's "blame" and then there's "BLAME". And sure, the dumper may look back (if they get to a point where a year, 10 years, 50 years down the line) and realize that they were to "blame" ....but that tends to happen less. (though not in every case). As FWM said - after an 8 year relationship, 11 days is a very short time frame. Hell, even 11 weeks you'll probably be still an emotional wreck in some way, shape, or form. But the key as they pointed is to get to a point where you understand things, you understand the other person (as best as you can in hindsight and with them gone from your life), you understand yourself, and then you can forgive yourself for whatever mistakes you might have made during the course of the relationship. That isn't to remove any due "blame" from you. But again, with an average relationship - the "demise" is on both parties. I'm 9 months out of a heartbreaking dump after a 2 yr relationship. As I look back, I realize now, have accepted, and then forgiven myself because I was 50% of the cause of my own heartbreak. Had I not ignored the signs that she wasn't anywhere near ready or experienced for a real relationship and had I really stopped and owned my feelings that I really was doing 95% of the work and also not getting my wants/needs met and that no matter how much I did, how nice I was, how much I gave, it wouldn't have changed the outcome and stuck to my guns, then I would have ended the relationship on my terms. So I'm not to "blame" for the relationship ending, but in terms of my own happiness and joy and eventual "heartache", I am to blame because the signs were all there and I chose to ignore them. So right now, just ride the waves of emotions you feel, don't block them, and find and build a support team of people you can trust and open up to who know you completely and want nothing other than your happiness and fulfillment, and use them as a way to shed the pain and the tears and learn what you can, when you can to make yourself a better person and in time, when you're ready and not "in need" of a relationship, you can be a better partner.

 

[k100danny]

Thank you both for your replies.

I'm still struggling day to day, somedays not as much others I just want to break down. But I think I am finally coming to terms with it, even being a bit angry somedays at things I knew i overlooked, things Me or her did wrong and also knowing that a lot of the longing is for what i wanted to have and what i did feel in the first few years. Also the feeling that I may come out of this better off in the long run, find out who i am again, we all change in relationships don't. And also realise that for anyone to truly be happy they have to feel accepted for who they are and feel supported and for various reasons I think we both struggled to do that.

I am 10 years older than her but probably had about the same relationship experience which wasn't a great deal apart from very young relationships when i still wasn't sure of myself. So maybe it was timing, if we had both worked out our issues we maybe could have been great together, it could be the total opposite and maybe we would have been totally wrong for each other. I do have feelings towards her lots good and also now a bit of anger but compassionate too. And I really did get to do so many things with ehr that im 100% sure woudn't have happened if we didn't get together.

 

I'm just trying to take each day as it comes, writing letters to her that never get sent (for some reason this seems to help when writing from a clear head space) I rarely finish a letter but in each time i do it i feel i find something out about myself, something i overlooked in the relationship and something I need to work on so it doesn't happen again.

[scooby-philly]

On 5/30/2020 at 8:16 AM, k100danny said:

Thank you both for your replies.

I'm still struggling day to day, somedays not as much others I just want to break down. But I think I am finally coming to terms with it, even being a bit angry somedays at things I knew i overlooked, things Me or her did wrong and also knowing that a lot of the longing is for what i wanted to have and what i did feel in the first few years. Also the feeling that I may come out of this better off in the long run, find out who i am again, we all change in relationships don't. And also realise that for anyone to truly be happy they have to feel accepted for who they are and feel supported and for various reasons I think we both struggled to do that.

I am 10 years older than her but probably had about the same relationship experience which wasn't a great deal apart from very young relationships when i still wasn't sure of myself. So maybe it was timing, if we had both worked out our issues we maybe could have been great together, it could be the total opposite and maybe we would have been totally wrong for each other. I do have feelings towards her lots good and also now a bit of anger but compassionate too. And I really did get to do so many things with ehr that im 100% sure woudn't have happened if we didn't get together.

 

I'm just trying to take each day as it comes, writing letters to her that never get sent (for some reason this seems to help when writing from a clear head space) I rarely finish a letter but in each time i do it i feel i find something out about myself, something i overlooked in the relationship and something I need to work on so it doesn't happen again.

Hey @k100danny - I highlighted a few key things that I wanted to help you process.

• The struggle
  • Breaking up is never easy. Even if you're both 100% mature, healthy and want to stay friends. Your emotions will be a "hot mess" for a while. Especially after 8 years together. 
  • As time wears on you will find new emotions surfacing, emotions will disappear only to reappear days or week or even months later, and you will have moments (minutes, hours, days) when the emotions are too much to handle. 
  • #1 thing in dealing with and processing the emotions - do not run from them. Do not run from the "darkness" (any depression, loneliness, etc.) you feel. People that jump from relationship to relationship to fill the void in their hearts/souls or who fill the void with addictions and bad things, they never truly learn. The darkness isn't unnatural. And it's not your enemy. Once you learn how to accept it you can learn how to get out of it bit by bit. And once you do that you can learn to open up and let the darkness speak to you. It will help you understand a lot - what you missed when it was going on, what you miss in the relationship and how you can get that moving forward, how you might have compromised on stuff you shouldn't, even uncovering some "personal" issues you might need to work on. It can be your friend and teacher if you let it.
• Anger
  • Anger is good. Anger comes from having an idea of how "things should be" - behavior, actions, thoughts, etc. Obviously, you need to make it productive. You can't let it destroy you and in the long-run, if the anger stays around (even if just in the background) you need to learn how to convert it to more positive results (not denying it or hiding it or burying it, but converting, like mass to energy). Let the anger in and let it teach you, along with the darkness. 
• Right/wrong
  • Outside of the instances of rape, abuse, cheating, crime, financial ruin, etc. - most relationships ending are not 100% someone's "fault". It's easy to blame the other or to blame yourself. Or to move back and forth between the two. That's natural but in the long run, that's not healthy. Your post hints at how you've been starting to accept things. So I encourage you to check your language in your head, your writing, as you open up to close friends, family, etc. and share your heart and your pain. Acceptance should come naturally so do not fret if you occasionally find the angry part of you going back and blaming her or your self-guilt or shame trying to blame you. Finding a true, positive narrative that you can "live with" will help make sure you can move on in a healthy, positive manner.
• Age
  • It would be good to know how old you two are and how old when you two met. I am 9+ months out from a similar, but shorter, situation. I'm about to turn 39 later this month and my recent ex will be 25 in July. We met online through a dating site when I was 36 and she was 22. Now I really wasn't looking to date someone that young and I was certainly aware of what the "public" things about age gaps like that. But I didn't know her age till we were talking for almost 3 weeks and I figured, what the hell. Age or an age gap in and of itself isn't the "problem" most of the time. What I learned the hard way was that age = experience and it's experience (or lack thereof) that kills relationships with big age gaps (if one person is younger) and that beyond a certain number, you're so far apart in where you are with life that it can make things impossible. 
  • With my recent ex, it wasn't her "age" - it was the fact that she had no real prior dating experience coupled with low self-esteem, a negative self-image, a "good girl" persona/act she kept up with family/friends/public, she was still living at home with parents who were shame based, who didn't have friends, who didn't know how to become a professional worker except telling her she could only "study" and work, and didn't allow her to have a social life, and treated her immaturely (all the while still leaning on her to do things for them they didn't know how to do, especially governmental things as they were immigrants who could barely speak English). Someone else that age who had come from a loving family, had a prior relationship, and was comfortable with themselves and was living their own life, it could have worked.
• Feeling loved
  • It would be interesting to see if you know your attachment styles (hers and yours). I think from what you've shared in your two posts you could both be "anxious". Or perhaps she is anxious and you're blend of secure/anxious. Now I don't think that's a cure all explanation. Not by any stretch. But if you struggled to "feel love" that's very often a sign of an anxious attachment style. Especially if you've been together for 8 years and you both feel that way, that's not a good thing.
  • I cannot speak for you, your experience, or your feelings. But I can share mine as a starting point for further conversation. I know I am 75% "secure" and 25% anxious. I was a lot more anxious when I was younger. It came from threats of and actual incidents of abandonment in my childhood, coupled with crippling low self-esteem and parents who loved me, but couldn't really provide me any emotional support or direction in life. So in all my relationships since I starting dating seriously in my late 20s, have been me "holding onto" people when I knew either they weren't right for me, they were crazy (had the pleasure of dating a certified psychopath), or with the last ex, where too young, inexperienced, and immature. So I can relate to those feelings you shared. 
• Relationship Experience (+ Age + Feeling Loved)
  • So the next part I highlighted was about your line saying you both had the same sort of experience with relationships despite your age difference. While that may be true, I think the thing to focus on isn't that, or at least that point alone, but on why YOU are 10 years older and feel that is true. Plus, I want to tie in some stuff about the age gap and the point about feeling loved & supported that I didn't include in the previous two sections.
  • No one has a perfect life. And NO ONE lives a perfect life as imagined in the media,, on social media, in our dreams. So the first thing we need to do is build a new dream for ourselves based on reality and who WE ARE in reality. And that takes work.
  • The natural order to life is that in our 20s and 30s we open up, learn and accept who we are, and build a life off of that. But sometimes that doesn't happen for people b/c of their fears, psychoses, pain, etc. And for some people, it takes numerous bad things to happen before we really, truly, deeply, "learn" who we are.
  • Do you find yourself looking back at this relationship and maybe others before and feel like you "settled"? I'm not saying you did, but what you've shared so far sounds a lot like me and I know, looking back, I settled. I stayed with people simply because they said "yes" they would date me. And I stayed WAY PAST the expiration date in all of my ltrs. My first ex (who I actually go engaged to) isn't necessarily a bad person. But she was bitter and angry to a certain extant, did not come from a warm/supportive family, she was succeptible to changing her opinion based on what others' said, and cared more about her "image" (not necessarily looks, but more how people "viewed" her) then she did about her own self-image or about the person she was dating. Plus, personality wise we weren't really that compatible on a lot of fronts. But as the meme/saying goes about the three loves, while I was almost 30 when I met her, this was my first "love" and it was immature on my part. I look back now and can see how, in retrospect, there were times where she belittled me, didn't support me, and didn't talk to me nicely. Now, I'm no saint so I'm not saying I was perfect, nor was I even my best at times during that relationship. But I can see through hindsight how/why it wouldn't have been healthy for either of us, me especially, in the long run. My second ex was a psycho as I said. I knew at 3 weeks she had a ton of problems and I stayed for a year. Why? Because she said yes and because I didn't have self-respect. I got attached too quickly and didn't have the courage to just pull the plug until a lot of damage had been done. And the last ex - I hope and pray she changes. I hope she gets out of her parent's house, learns to be comfortable with herself, learns how to build the life she wants instead of imagining it was going to happen magically or depend on someone else to build it for her. Because there were great moments. But she hadn't not only "done the work" on herself, she wasn't even ready emotionally to admit there was a problem let alone try and work on herself.
  • So....think about your own situation. You're 10 years older, you feel like your on her experience level in terms of dating, and you both felt unloved at times. That tells me you both have work to do on yourselves. Feeling and giving love are essential in a relationship. It cannot root itself deep enough, blossom enough, and grow enough without both parties being capable of those two things. And part of that is the ability for both partners to OPEN UP, to share vulnerability with each other, and to chose to work on things together. My recent ex, as I look back, was too young and inexperienced to understand that healthy, loving, mature relationships aren't "perfect" - there will be arguments, hurt feelings, and mistakes made, even in the best relationship. But both parties have to be willing to try and both parties need to have the skillset and the willingness to open up and be vulnerable to and with each other. I remember with the recent ex numerous times where I would tell her just that. And yet I stayed? Why? Because I was in love, I was hopeful time would change her, and I was once again not respecting myself, and down playing my own wants/needs. Looking back on your relationship, where you doing that as well? Where you sacrificing big parts of you just to make the relationship work?
• Timing
  • Yes, 100%!!!!!!!!!! Two great people can meet and not be right for each other. And two people can meet and had the timing worked out differently, it could have been a successful, lasting relationship. So do not beat yourself up, do not let yourself over analyze every little detail, every little thing you said or did or could have said or did. Accept it for what it is and let it teach you.
• Writing
  • Writing, analyzing and changing our self-talk and internal thoughts, and sharing with trusted family/friends are the three most important things we can do. And they can influence and impact each other. Writing gives you a way to circle back every day, every week, every month to discover trends that help you learn about yourself, the relationship, etc. It cant help you discover patterns in your life you may need to fix. It can help you process emotions and get to a point where you no longer sprial, or you no longer feel x or think y. And if you're not a writer or don't enjoy it - a buddy on here helped me early on in my recovery with the idea of a simple 5 point bulleted list - 1. Your best traits 2. Your accomplishments 3. Your goals (tangible ones) 4. What you want/need in a partner 5. what was wrong with her/relationship. Do it every day. Do it multiple times a day when you need to or feel like it. Type it up as an email, email it your yourself, and then save it in a folder in your email. Go back and look after a month, two months, three months - and you'll see the progress you made, the feelings change, new ideas will bubble up in your mind or to your consciousness, and you'll get to a point where at least for #5 you won't want to or need to list that any more and #4 will be ingrained in your head. 

 

Hope some of this helps my friend!

 

[k100danny]

4 hours ago, scooby-philly said:

Hey @k100danny - I highlighted a few key things that I wanted to help you process.

• The struggle
  • Breaking up is never easy. Even if you're both 100% mature, healthy and want to stay friends. Your emotions will be a "hot mess" for a while. Especially after 8 years together. 
  • As time wears on you will find new emotions surfacing, emotions will disappear only to reappear days or week or even months later, and you will have moments (minutes, hours, days) when the emotions are too much to handle. 
  • #1 thing in dealing with and processing the emotions - do not run from them. Do not run from the "darkness" (any depression, loneliness, etc.) you feel. People that jump from relationship to relationship to fill the void in their hearts/souls or who fill the void with addictions and bad things, they never truly learn. The darkness isn't unnatural. And it's not your enemy. Once you learn how to accept it you can learn how to get out of it bit by bit. And once you do that you can learn to open up and let the darkness speak to you. It will help you understand a lot - what you missed when it was going on, what you miss in the relationship and how you can get that moving forward, how you might have compromised on stuff you shouldn't, even uncovering some "personal" issues you might need to work on. It can be your friend and teacher if you let it.
• Anger
  • Anger is good. Anger comes from having an idea of how "things should be" - behavior, actions, thoughts, etc. Obviously, you need to make it productive. You can't let it destroy you and in the long-run, if the anger stays around (even if just in the background) you need to learn how to convert it to more positive results (not denying it or hiding it or burying it, but converting, like mass to energy). Let the anger in and let it teach you, along with the darkness. 
• Right/wrong
  • Outside of the instances of rape, abuse, cheating, crime, financial ruin, etc. - most relationships ending are not 100% someone's "fault". It's easy to blame the other or to blame yourself. Or to move back and forth between the two. That's natural but in the long run, that's not healthy. Your post hints at how you've been starting to accept things. So I encourage you to check your language in your head, your writing, as you open up to close friends, family, etc. and share your heart and your pain. Acceptance should come naturally so do not fret if you occasionally find the angry part of you going back and blaming her or your self-guilt or shame trying to blame you. Finding a true, positive narrative that you can "live with" will help make sure you can move on in a healthy, positive manner.
• Age
  • It would be good to know how old you two are and how old when you two met. I am 9+ months out from a similar, but shorter, situation. I'm about to turn 39 later this month and my recent ex will be 25 in July. We met online through a dating site when I was 36 and she was 22. Now I really wasn't looking to date someone that young and I was certainly aware of what the "public" things about age gaps like that. But I didn't know her age till we were talking for almost 3 weeks and I figured, what the hell. Age or an age gap in and of itself isn't the "problem" most of the time. What I learned the hard way was that age = experience and it's experience (or lack thereof) that kills relationships with big age gaps (if one person is younger) and that beyond a certain number, you're so far apart in where you are with life that it can make things impossible. 
  • With my recent ex, it wasn't her "age" - it was the fact that she had no real prior dating experience coupled with low self-esteem, a negative self-image, a "good girl" persona/act she kept up with family/friends/public, she was still living at home with parents who were shame based, who didn't have friends, who didn't know how to become a professional worker except telling her she could only "study" and work, and didn't allow her to have a social life, and treated her immaturely (all the while still leaning on her to do things for them they didn't know how to do, especially governmental things as they were immigrants who could barely speak English). Someone else that age who had come from a loving family, had a prior relationship, and was comfortable with themselves and was living their own life, it could have worked.
• Feeling loved
  • It would be interesting to see if you know your attachment styles (hers and yours). I think from what you've shared in your two posts you could both be "anxious". Or perhaps she is anxious and you're blend of secure/anxious. Now I don't think that's a cure all explanation. Not by any stretch. But if you struggled to "feel love" that's very often a sign of an anxious attachment style. Especially if you've been together for 8 years and you both feel that way, that's not a good thing.
  • I cannot speak for you, your experience, or your feelings. But I can share mine as a starting point for further conversation. I know I am 75% "secure" and 25% anxious. I was a lot more anxious when I was younger. It came from threats of and actual incidents of abandonment in my childhood, coupled with crippling low self-esteem and parents who loved me, but couldn't really provide me any emotional support or direction in life. So in all my relationships since I starting dating seriously in my late 20s, have been me "holding onto" people when I knew either they weren't right for me, they were crazy (had the pleasure of dating a certified psychopath), or with the last ex, where too young, inexperienced, and immature. So I can relate to those feelings you shared. 
• Relationship Experience (+ Age + Feeling Loved)
  • So the next part I highlighted was about your line saying you both had the same sort of experience with relationships despite your age difference. While that may be true, I think the thing to focus on isn't that, or at least that point alone, but on why YOU are 10 years older and feel that is true. Plus, I want to tie in some stuff about the age gap and the point about feeling loved & supported that I didn't include in the previous two sections.
  • No one has a perfect life. And NO ONE lives a perfect life as imagined in the media,, on social media, in our dreams. So the first thing we need to do is build a new dream for ourselves based on reality and who WE ARE in reality. And that takes work.
  • The natural order to life is that in our 20s and 30s we open up, learn and accept who we are, and build a life off of that. But sometimes that doesn't happen for people b/c of their fears, psychoses, pain, etc. And for some people, it takes numerous bad things to happen before we really, truly, deeply, "learn" who we are.
  • Do you find yourself looking back at this relationship and maybe others before and feel like you "settled"? I'm not saying you did, but what you've shared so far sounds a lot like me and I know, looking back, I settled. I stayed with people simply because they said "yes" they would date me. And I stayed WAY PAST the expiration date in all of my ltrs. My first ex (who I actually go engaged to) isn't necessarily a bad person. But she was bitter and angry to a certain extant, did not come from a warm/supportive family, she was succeptible to changing her opinion based on what others' said, and cared more about her "image" (not necessarily looks, but more how people "viewed" her) then she did about her own self-image or about the person she was dating. Plus, personality wise we weren't really that compatible on a lot of fronts. But as the meme/saying goes about the three loves, while I was almost 30 when I met her, this was my first "love" and it was immature on my part. I look back now and can see how, in retrospect, there were times where she belittled me, didn't support me, and didn't talk to me nicely. Now, I'm no saint so I'm not saying I was perfect, nor was I even my best at times during that relationship. But I can see through hindsight how/why it wouldn't have been healthy for either of us, me especially, in the long run. My second ex was a psycho as I said. I knew at 3 weeks she had a ton of problems and I stayed for a year. Why? Because she said yes and because I didn't have self-respect. I got attached too quickly and didn't have the courage to just pull the plug until a lot of damage had been done. And the last ex - I hope and pray she changes. I hope she gets out of her parent's house, learns to be comfortable with herself, learns how to build the life she wants instead of imagining it was going to happen magically or depend on someone else to build it for her. Because there were great moments. But she hadn't not only "done the work" on herself, she wasn't even ready emotionally to admit there was a problem let alone try and work on herself.
  • So....think about your own situation. You're 10 years older, you feel like your on her experience level in terms of dating, and you both felt unloved at times. That tells me you both have work to do on yourselves. Feeling and giving love are essential in a relationship. It cannot root itself deep enough, blossom enough, and grow enough without both parties being capable of those two things. And part of that is the ability for both partners to OPEN UP, to share vulnerability with each other, and to chose to work on things together. My recent ex, as I look back, was too young and inexperienced to understand that healthy, loving, mature relationships aren't "perfect" - there will be arguments, hurt feelings, and mistakes made, even in the best relationship. But both parties have to be willing to try and both parties need to have the skillset and the willingness to open up and be vulnerable to and with each other. I remember with the recent ex numerous times where I would tell her just that. And yet I stayed? Why? Because I was in love, I was hopeful time would change her, and I was once again not respecting myself, and down playing my own wants/needs. Looking back on your relationship, where you doing that as well? Where you sacrificing big parts of you just to make the relationship work?
• Timing
  • Yes, 100%!!!!!!!!!! Two great people can meet and not be right for each other. And two people can meet and had the timing worked out differently, it could have been a successful, lasting relationship. So do not beat yourself up, do not let yourself over analyze every little detail, every little thing you said or did or could have said or did. Accept it for what it is and let it teach you.
• Writing
  • Writing, analyzing and changing our self-talk and internal thoughts, and sharing with trusted family/friends are the three most important things we can do. And they can influence and impact each other. Writing gives you a way to circle back every day, every week, every month to discover trends that help you learn about yourself, the relationship, etc. It cant help you discover patterns in your life you may need to fix. It can help you process emotions and get to a point where you no longer sprial, or you no longer feel x or think y. And if you're not a writer or don't enjoy it - a buddy on here helped me early on in my recovery with the idea of a simple 5 point bulleted list - 1. Your best traits 2. Your accomplishments 3. Your goals (tangible ones) 4. What you want/need in a partner 5. what was wrong with her/relationship. Do it every day. Do it multiple times a day when you need to or feel like it. Type it up as an email, email it your yourself, and then save it in a folder in your email. Go back and look after a month, two months, three months - and you'll see the progress you made, the feelings change, new ideas will bubble up in your mind or to your consciousness, and you'll get to a point where at least for #5 you won't want to or need to list that any more and #4 will be ingrained in your head. 

 

Hope some of this helps my friend!

 

Thank you for your reply. So much of this i feel applies to me and at times i thought it was actually written about my experiences. I will elaborate on our relationship a bit more.

I am 37 years old and my ex is 27 years old, we met when she was 19 almost 20 and i was just turned 30.  I do blame myself for a lot at the beginning of th relationship as we had an attraction towards each other but she did say i came out of an abusive relationship a year or so ago and i don't know if i feel like i can get into another just yet. I said i had recently come out of a relationship so i understood (i was actually in an abusive relationship before this on where i was made to feel like s***, i have an anxiety disorder and this person belittled me about it, she got pregnant accidentally and said she was aborting the child because she didnt want a child to end up like me with generalized anxiety disorder and struggling to do what most peole find easy) I should have took her word and maybe stayed away but i wasn't honest with her and allowed a casual relationship to start also again not really mentioning how much i struggled with anxiety, this was selfish of me.

I knew i didn't just want a sleeping together relationship but also i really didn't want to lose her so i said ok we will see how it goes, During the initial stages she did mention to me that other guys were talking to her and asking her out and i didn't know why she did this, I thought maybe she was scared of getting into another relationship but she said she just wanted to be 100% honest as her last boyfriend used to beat her up which would explain being worried about getting into another relationship, she had dated someone breifly before we got tgether but it didn't really go anywhere. After a few months it still didn't seem like she was confident in having a relationship and i was filled with anxiety, some jealousy too as we seemed to be in different places in life but i liked her so much, I felt so comfortable in some ways and in other ways so anxious. I did find myself not feeling secure though.

We actually said we were together after about 3/4 months but looking back it may have been me more wanting things to move forward (she would later say that i was the one who wasn't commited) and we started being a bit more serious. My anxiety levels started to increase massively I think as we got a bit more serious i was scared of how my anxiety would affect us which resulted in a big panic attack when she was at my house and a horrible 5 months following this where i was an anxious mess, she stopped staying over at my house because i was scared of having a panic attack in front of her and eventually me breaking up with her as i couldn't deal with the anxiety and felt i couldn't offer her the things she deserved.this was about 9 months after we started dating. I didn't want to break up i think i just didn't know how i was going to deal with my anxiety and felt it was holding her back from a normal relationship. During this time a few things happened that i let slide but i think that they overstepped what i would expect of a partner, she didn't cheat as far as im aware but i just felt betrayed.

When we broke up she was heartbroken and i mean really took it hard, we stayed on talking terms and i said i didn't want to break up i just didn't see how i could be the boyfriend she deserved with my anxiety and i came clean about just how restricting my anxiety was, she was angry saying she should have had a say in wether she wanted to be in the relationship and i shouldn't just decide whats best for her. We still spoke over the next 6 weeks on and off, i felt like in some ways i felt less anxious but in other ways i really wasn't doing good with the split, infact id pretty much say i had a nervous breakdown and i know she was similar. During this time i did want us to get back together, she said she wasn't sure if she could trust i wouldnt just up and leave again with my anxiety. we saw each other once after around 5 weeks and she text me saying she wanted me to stay at the club (new years eve) but i had left as i just wasnt feeling good, we exchanged a few messages and then didn't speak for a few days. The next hing that happened left a shadow on our relationship on and off for a long time. I found out she had been dating someone whilst we had been speaking but split up, I felt hurt but also knew i had broken up with her so I coudnt be mad. We got into a fight and she said " you left me, i drank almost everyday and i just wanted the feelings to go, i told him i still loved you and wasn't open to anything but i was in no fit state and i just wanted to stop hurting) This was understandable but i still felt betrayed maybe because a few days earlier she was saying how she thought we would spend new years togther and was still saying she loved me. We had a fight about it and then she spoke to me on the phone saying she felt so ill, she was alone at her parents and was having panic attacks. i told her i didn't want her to be alone and to come to my house. we both slept for about 16 hours after not sleeping properly for weeks. We had a massive heart to heart and decided we would give it another go.

I did struggle at first but also understood i had no right to be angry as i broke up with her but i struggled to think was she coming to try again because she felt guilty about what she had done or because she wanted to be with me, the next couple of months were pretty hard, i kept thinking she might leave and she kept thinking i didn't love her.

We eventually settled down or at least i think we did, her knowing fully about my anxiety i feel let me be more vulnerable and we started to do things i hadn't done in years, go away on holidays together a few times, france, spain, USA (we are from the uk) and I started to feel a lot better in myself, the most secure and stable i had felt probably ever, I used to live with my parents whilst struggling with anxiety but after 2.5 years together I moved out into my own house and she moved in shortly after until a few weeks ago so we lived together almost 5 years. There was always some arguments on and off but a lot of this I think was me, i sometimes when things were going good would think of the times i felt betrayed when we first got together but werent serious and would feel unloved or that she might leave me, i was insecure but so was she although she didnt show it through jealousy. I did feel smothered at one point when she was studying and i was working full time i felt a lot of pressure on me and i started to again feel anxious a bit but we still had another couple of pretty good years before things started to really go bad.

I was in therapy and still am for my anxiety and i thought i had anxious attachment and maybe she did too , we both have low self esteem although i tend to pretend i dont to cover my insecurities, she is open that she looked to me to make her feel better and was very reactive to how she perceived my mood to be, i felt a lot of strain for this like I wanted her to be content but also that i was under a lot of pressure. When we moved in together after about 2 years we were fighting more, i had started to get really anxious again, she was asking about marraige, children etc but it didn't seem right. What I mean by this is i thought she wanted those to feel secure and not that we felt secure so we should which is how i think marriage and children should be done, not done to try and make someone feel better but do them because you feel like you're ready. She said initially hald jokingly that i had 5 years to propose and i think this may have made my anxiety worse. My anxiety got so bad from around the end of 2017 i was worrying a lot more, from the start of 2018 it got even worse. I knew she wanted me to get fully well and i felt she woudnt be happy until I was, this made me want to get well but also made my anxiety worse, what if i can't do that, what if she leaves me and this started a spiral. We were fighting a lot, she wanted me to do things and i felt guilty i coudnt so we would get into fights, I didn't feel i could express my needs and started to not feel comfortable or let myself be vulnerable as i felt the person i was with wasn't accepting of me being anxious she was just putting up with me waiting for me to change so she would be happy in a fulfilling relationship. This made me withdraw even more as i didn't feel supported and that made her feel worse because she didn't think i loved her.

 

My anxiety makes me worry a lot, when i worry i go off into my head and it was hard to meet her needs whilst struggling with my own, I think she saw this as me being selfish, not caring and only giving her love and attention when i wanted it not when she needed it, But for me it felt i gave it when i could, when i was having a less anxious hour or less anxious day. I can see looking in from the outside someone might have said he's self centred, maybe bordering on narcisist as i would get very angry with her and push her away then ask her to come back. I realised i was into a bit of a cycle of abusive behaviour, where i lashed out to not feel attacked if she would get annoyed about me not doing things , i would feel attacked and ashamed for suffering with anxiety and i would push her away so i didn't have to do social things ect and then i would feel guilty because i knew she deserved someone without those issues. But i realyl did want to be that person, it wasn't nice for me but i can see how it wasn't nice for her feeling that she wasnt supported, i wasnt going to family meals ect. In a childish way to not deal with my anxiety I used to say this is me, like it or leave and things like that when i didnt want her to leave but i felt i couldnt admit that i felt so low because i couldnt do these things.

The last 18 months it became apparent that We were both struggling in the relationship and things got a bit spiteful between us, i felt she judged me for being anxious and wasn't happy with how i was ike i didn't feel accepted. I understood why she felt the way she did and wanted me to do those things but i felt like s*** in myself like i was living with someone who was waiting for me to change and she wasn't happy with me. I accepted her fort he most part i think and didn't want her to changed, i just wished she was happy. we fought and split up numerous times over the last 18 months and then i felt a change. She was asking me what i would like to do after lockdown, i said nothing just carry on as i am (I knew she was looking for me to say something or give her some reassurance we would do more) but i was being petulant as i felt like she didn't love me as i was. She started to pull away then one night i felt something was really off and i said something doesn't feel right, i feel like i can read you and she said i've been looking to buy a house, I tod myself it was an investment but i think I'm just thinking I might not get what i want from this relationship, I know how anxious you are and if we got married or had kids i'd worry that it wouldnt be how i wanted or i'd worry you felt anxious on our wedding day then i wouldn't be able to enjoy it. I asked when she planned on telling me as she was living at my house (I own it but it was our house although she said she didn't feel like it was hers and wanted to buy a place together) she said it was just at the thought stage but since lockdown she realised we dont do much goether anymore, our life was between these 4 walls and she realised how much she used friends and family to meet her needs because she wasn't getting it from our relationship due to my anxiety and not being able to offer her the reassurance she needs, also we had fought so much she wasnt sure she could get past it and thought i would always feel guilty for the fights we had had. I asked her to leave that night. I didnt want her to i was looking for her to say no we can work on this but she left. 

I dont want to say i settled, she really is a great person, beautful, attractive, kind but also very insecure and I didn't feel good enough, I felt for her to be happy I had to be well or had to be something im not. This caused a big divide that got worse, i said numerous times that I did want to marry her but i felt she wanted to marry me to flll a void, or have kids because it would make her feel better and not because she was content and happy and for this reason i didnt do it. I do feel there was a lot more stuff from her side that caused issues too though so maybe we just clashed, she constantly needed to feel reassured by the person she was with and the person she was with couldn't give that whilst trying to deal with their own issues. She said she started to feel more low over the last 2 years, she has suffered with depression in the past, she has body issues and has had a few surgeries to make her feel better (which i didn't agree with and thought she should try to feel better in herself without turning to that) I know she had these feelings before me as her mum took her for cosmetic surgery at 17 before i knew her but i think we being so wrapped up in myself made her feel even worse but i wouldnt have changed a thing about the way she looked, she is the best looking and smartest person i have ever been in a relationship and i accepted her looks and loved how she looked. I do think however that i blamed myself a bit too much, i hope i didnt make her issues worse and i do hope she is happier now or will be in the future but i also put up with a lot of stuff such as not feeling i could express myself for fear that she would say i said something i didnt. For instance i would smell food and say "what are you having?" and she might say god i wont eat if you think i shouldn't be eating or if she was laid on my and i wasn't comfortable and asked if she would move she may say that she isnt that heavy or imply i called her fat (I have never said a bad thing about her weight or looks) she was slim and pretty. So a lot of the time i think we both felt like we were walking on eggshells. She wasn't sure if i was in an anxious mood and i wasn't comfortable around her thinking she was judging my mental health or that she would almost use me to make herself feel bad, she mentioned she sometimes pushed my buttons to get a reaction so she could then think she was a bad person.

I maybe did put up with more than i would if i felt a bit more self worth and wasn't anxious, i didnt think i could meet someone else, didnt want to be alone and really did love her but had my own struggles. I think i may be anxious/fearful but i look avoidant because of unrelated anxiety and it means i do struggle with relationships, will stay longer than is healthy and fear them ending too. There were times too she would say things like ive always been in a relationship, i cant go on a date without it turning into one and i just though thats not a nice thing to say as it doesn't make me feel good or that you want to be here and for a long time i wasn't sure she actually did wan't to be here, I thought she was scared of it ending or just didnt want to live at home with her mum who she doesnt get on with.

 

Im sorry im not really good at writing or expressing how i feel so that may just look like a big jumbled mess but it's just a rough overview of our relationship.

 

Thanks so much for your replay it did really help me

[k100danny]

I'd like to add to my reply. After reading your message and delving a little deeper into myself last night I think i discovered things other people had always tried to tell me but i thought were down to my anxiety disorder.

I used to think i was anxiously attached in relationships, other people said i was avoidant but i thought my avoidance came from avoiding things due to my anxiety such as social situations, going on vacation ect and that if i dealt with my generalized anxiety/panic and fear of going far from home my relationship would suddenly be fine but i struggled putting that pressure on myself.

 

I now think I an anxious/avoidant and most of my history does seem to point to this, maybe slightly more towards avoidant in some things but then when a crisis hits and i realise what i have lost or a threat to the relationship i could be very honest with my ex about loving her, fearing i wasn't good enough, wanting the things she wanted such as being married ect but also being worried that it wasn't what she wanted, didn't accept me for who I was, she was settling or that once married i would just be expected to be a totally different person.

I have aways known I have low self esteem which i try to hide and i can sometimes look very narcisistic with my coping mechanisms, if i fear doing something i will say i'm not that type or person, if you want to do that go and do it but it's not for me. when my ex would i would sulk thinking "but i want to go, Please dont leave because you will find someone better than me"

 

I was a bit controlling, i didn't tell her where she could go or who she could see, what she could wear or money ect but i would just act out a bit or be moody if she went out with friends because i would then feel like she can do these things without me, I have to stay home and be lonely and almost like a petulant child. I didn't express it this way and she just thought i didn't want her going out which wasn't the case. She would text me a lot when she was out with friends because i think she thought this would ease my mind but i would get annoyed like i had been left and say you dont have to text me all of the time. When she came home i would want to feel comforted and hug her but instead i would be a bit cold until i felt ok. Not the best behaviour for a 37 year old guy.

I would also look for reasons that she didn't love me and found it hard to trust she did, her being anxiously attached also meant we clashed a lot. At least i would say she was anxiously attached, often saying things such as I love you more than you love me, and she would look to me and how i was and think it was a direct result of her and looking back i can't blame her as it would look this way to anyone.

I would fantasise in my head about us being married, about her friends liking me and being close with her family, something she really wanted and i did too but was scared. I constantly thought she doesn't want her friends to come to our house, or her family to come here but maybe she thought i didn't want them here, i'll never know. I do know that she would ask me to visit her parents and i would when i felt able, i think she thought i was uncomfortable or anxious so would try and get us to leave as soon as possible but when there i would actually feel a lot better and more included, her mum always made me feel welcome, I got along well with her father (her sister was not a fan of mine) and sometimes her I thought her mum didn't like me so i would be mean when in reality i knew that her mum just wanted the best for her daughter, saw we didn't do a lot of the things normal couples do and wanted her to have more. for me this seemed like an attack on me like i wasn't good enough which i fear a lot so this caused some friction although my ex used to say she doesn't not like you she just wanted to feel like more of a family.

The push and pull must have been very hard on my ex, feeling like what i say and what i do are very different which can feel like i was manipulating her but i think it was just i only said those things from my safe place, where i didn't feel i would be left or i felt i had no other option because then the relationship would end which i didn't want to happem. I did feel a lot of guilt that she didn't get to do a lot of thing but also felt a lot of pressure to be different, like she was waiting for this change and until that happened she couldn't love me. I am not sure if this was actually the case or she was saying I love you but i need to feel loved too.

The one thing i couldn't work out though is she kind of seemed a little avoidant too, maybe that was me projecting onto her or maybe there was something in that. For instance she said she wanted to feel like it was our home but got sad when her parents converted her old room into another room and we had been living together 2 years at this point, She said it was because she didn't feel secure and not that she was looking for a back up. Also she would mention marriage a lot, i thought she was trying to make me anxious and didn't actually want to get marrried but maybe she did because she thought it would make us feel closer, something she was having trouble getting from me. I know I could have married her, i know we could have had children but i wanted us to feel ok first and also not to feel like i had trapped her and to some extent not to feel someone now depended on me.

The fearful attachment gets seems to get a really bad wrap when reading about it online saying they are horrible and they push and pull, don't get involved with one ect. I can see how this may have been written by someone who has been in a relationship and feels the other person doesn't care. I can say whole heartedly I do very much love my ex and always have, But i feel different to how others feel love, when i think I am giving enough others dont feel what i feel which is generally content with how things are. I don't expect someone to settle for me though and this was one of the guilt parts of our relationship, i felt i had to make things right because she had invested so much time and waited for me so long which wasn't fair on her. I knew i'd never leave her but I did fear oneday she would leave me. I pushed her away back to her mums on numerous occasions only for me to tell her i miss her and how much i really cared, then when she came back it was like i closed back up. I did really try though it was no walk in the park for me and i said many times I really am trying, it's a lot easier for me to not be in a relationship but i want to be with you.

I wish i didn't have some of the trauma i do from being a child and i wasn't anxious as i feel like the most wonderful person has slipped through my grasp but i know if she came back i'd struggle to make it right and maybe never would feel safe.

[scooby-philly]

I'm going to try and respond to both of your posts in one. I'm going to BOLD what you wrote and try to make my response concise, but also clear what I am responding too from what you shared.

First off, you never need to apologize to anyone at anytime for being yourself. You're still unpacking a lot from a long relationship and your emotions are probably all over the place. And while writing can be helpful and useful it is also sometimes a HOT MESS when you're in the moment and still "feeling" everything. The simple fact that you're online and sharing and open to feedback and trying to self-assess is a great sign and a hopeful one for you and your future. Remember, even now that you are single at least once a day someone - a friend, a family member, a co-worker, even her, may smile because of something you say or a memory that comes to their minds. 

 

I am 37 years old and my ex is 27 years old, we met when she was 19 almost 20 and i was just turned 30.

I've learned this lesson the hard way recently as I shared. I don't care what others will say, many a decent man may try and date someone that young thinking something like "oh - well as long as she's mature" or "yeah, age is a factor and I wasn't looking for someone that young but we had great chemistry so I didnt want to just say no simply because of what society says". Many decent guys learn the lesson the hard way - especially in today's world with social media, increase peer pressure, role models that aren't what 95% of the population will turn out to be, etc. - there's so much going from 18-22, even to 24/25, that relationships for women (and men) in that age range typically do not last. That's probably, my gut tells me, especially true for relationships with an age difference like that and probably even more true if you have issues as well as her. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the rule. But the odds are not in your favor from the start. Of course, personal/familial/other life factors can greatly increase/decrease the odds/chance of success. Just realize that even if you weren't pressuring her to be someone or something she's not or pressuring her to do things she's not ready for (like kids or marriage or living together), you're still years apart in mentality, temperament, etc. And while young women may dabble in dating different types of guys from 18-24/25, I would argue that a LOT (maybe at least half or more) will settle for someone within 2-3 years of their own age and not "rock the boat" too much in terms of their mate selection.  

 I do blame myself for a lot at the beginning of th relationship as we had an attraction towards each other but she did say i came out of an abusive relationship a year or so ago and i don't know if i feel like i can get into another just yet. I said i had recently come out of a relationship so i understood (i was actually in an abusive relationship before this on where i was made to feel like s***, i have an anxiety disorder and this person belittled me about it, she got pregnant accidentally and said she was aborting the child because she didnt want a child to end up like me with generalized anxiety disorder and struggling to do what most peole find easy) I should have took her word and maybe stayed away but i wasn't honest with her and allowed a casual relationship to start also again not really mentioning how much i struggled with anxiety, this was selfish of me.

You cannot blame yourself for who you are attracted to or even who you fall in love with. Our emotions, our psychological makeup, our minds, our hearts - these are all complex things that we do not fully understand. And I believe, in a certain sense, we shouldn't fully understand. Now that's not to say we shouldn't learn if we have destructive patterns in own behavior or the people we date, become friends with, etc. But at the end of the day you can't explain EVERYTHING. So do not let yourself or others shame you for what you feel, what you did, or what you tried to do while in love. Love isn't love if there isn't vulnerability. And being vulnerable, by its very nature, entails risk to the self. 

A lesson learned for you - take people at their word. Your job in a relationships, especially until you get married, is NOT TO FIX someone. You must love them, accept them, and see a future with them as they are RIGHT NOW. Not as you think they could be, nor as you hope they might be. For emotionally open, maybe sensitive, and caring men, I think we sometimes get burned because the initial attraction a female feels for us, even a sense of "safety' perhaps does not last if they do not or cannot grow into women who want an emotional, sensitive man. A lot of that, of course, depends on their family and parental history. So keep that in mind. They say we marry one of our parents....so if she doesn't have a sensitive, good, loving, affectionate father, then you need to dig and see if that's what she really wants in a man.

And remember, people's actions speak 100,000 times louder than their words. My recent ex was still sharing cute little couples' cartoon memes with me on the day she started to dump me and say "I don't have time for a relationship". Maybe she was trying to soften the blow for both of us, or her, or me, but her words were meaningless. And throughout our relationship, her actions - certain things she said, certain things she did, a few instances of threatening self-harm, or threatening abandonment - were more accurate of her internal feelings and struggles then her words were to me in retrospect. 

And yes, A LOT of people are selfish and hide at the beginning of a relationship. Because most people want to be loved, but most people do not know how to be loved or how to truly love someone else. So while the process you're going through right now feels like absolute hell, it's the only way to make sure you get what you actually want and seek.

I knew i didn't just want a sleeping together relationship but also i really didn't want to lose her so i said ok we will see how it goes, During the initial stages she did mention to me that other guys were talking to her and asking her out and i didn't know why she did this, I thought maybe she was scared of getting into another relationship but she said she just wanted to be 100% honest as her last boyfriend used to beat her up which would explain being worried about getting into another relationship, she had dated someone breifly before we got tgether but it didn't really go anywhere. After a few months it still didn't seem like she was confident in having a relationship and i was filled with anxiety, some jealousy too as we seemed to be in different places in life but i liked her so much, I felt so comfortable in some ways and in other ways so anxious. I did find myself not feeling secure though.

Yes - if by 4-6 months they aren't really showing you the true signs of wanting a relationship with you and by 12-18 months there isn't concrete actions towards building a future TOGETHER, it's time to leave. There's a great meme I saved in my recovery the past 9 months that basically said a few lines akin to "I've seen people who said they weren't ready for a relationship get ready in 2 quick conversations". So if you feel like she's not ready, and she's telling you she's not ready, and are actions are SHOWING you she's not ready....guess what....

And remember - your job is not to FIX her or SAVE her. Does it suck that so many women get stuck in abusive relationships of some sort - yes. Is it your job to "heal" her - no. She has to heal herself and decide in her heart and soul what she truly wants and more to the point change her soul to believe she DESERVES better. Which unfortunately doesn't happen until multiple abusive relationships occur or some grave consequence happens. Now, you can be a positive influence on her and SHOW her what a real man looks like. But again, they don't get any extra time above the standard timeline any relationship gets just because she's in need of healing. If she's not ready, she's not ready. Maybe you turn out to be a positive experience but you don't go 8 years waiting. So that's another lesson learned for you. 

And no one talks about the other people hitting on them or asking them out, especially early on in a relationship, unless they're trying to force you into some sort of competition or they have such low self-esteem they want to brag. Because that's disrespectful. Now I'm not saying she can't be transparent a little until you hit the "exclusive" stage, especially when it comes to sexual relations. But people who share too much usually have no respect for themselves and they always have no respect for you. 

We actually said we were together after about 3/4 months but looking back it may have been me more wanting things to move forward (she would later say that i was the one who wasn't commited) and we started being a bit more serious. My anxiety levels started to increase massively I think as we got a bit more serious i was scared of how my anxiety would affect us which resulted in a big panic attack when she was at my house and a horrible 5 months following this where i was an anxious mess, she stopped staying over at my house because i was scared of having a panic attack in front of her and eventually me breaking up with her as i couldn't deal with the anxiety and felt i couldn't offer her the things she deserved.this was about 9 months after we started dating. I didn't want to break up i think i just didn't know how i was going to deal with my anxiety and felt it was holding her back from a normal relationship. During this time a few things happened that i let slide but i think that they overstepped what i would expect of a partner, she didn't cheat as far as im aware but i just felt betrayed.

That's an acceptable time frame to get "serious", but the blame on you was probably her masking her self-esteem and other issues. 

Moving forward, your primary focus in the next year or two is to work on yourself and work on your anxiety. Do that and it will do wonders for you across all aspects of your life. That level of anxiety needs professional help and there's no shame in that. Relationships are a two-way street. You'd be surprised by how many "inbalanced" great couples are out there - together (married or not) with 10, 20, 40 years under their belts...but working on your self-esteem too and learning what you do bring and learning to take joy and pride in that and not judge yourself against some made up standard in your head that's derive from 100 different, mostly false or misleading, sources will do wonders. Now in your second post you talk about being anxious or being avoidant. And yes, you can be both! This demonstrates your anxiety. At least as you describe it. It would be worth going back and seeing why you felt betrayed. Learning what a healthy, mature, emotionally grounded, supportive, and loving relationship consists of and what it takes will help you analyze certain behaviors you may have or certain specific things you did or said (or not did or said) to help you uncover any destructive patterns. For instance, later on (or in your second post) you talk about being controlling and being miserable when she would go out. That's not a relationship. Now....I'm not a fan of the relationships you see so often these days where people come together and stay together simply because they fit each other's schedules...and as an emotional, sensitive, affectionate guy I couldn't date someone I couldn't spend a lot of time with and who didn't want to spend a lot of time with me...but to each their own. And even for me, and literature/research shows - both parties need a little bit of separation from each other - a few separate hobbies, a little bit of social life away from each other, etc. That's healthy and normal. And checking on you while she's out once a month with the "girls" not because you're sick as a dog or have been having some struggles, but simply because she's worried how you will act...that's not healthy for either of you and not fair at all to her.  

When we broke up she was heartbroken and i mean really took it hard, we stayed on talking terms and i said i didn't want to break up i just didn't see how i could be the boyfriend she deserved with my anxiety and i came clean about just how restricting my anxiety was, she was angry saying she should have had a say in wether she wanted to be in the relationship and i shouldn't just decide whats best for her. We still spoke over the next 6 weeks on and off, i felt like in some ways i felt less anxious but in other ways i really wasn't doing good with the split, infact id pretty much say i had a nervous breakdown and i know she was similar. During this time i did want us to get back together, she said she wasn't sure if she could trust i wouldnt just up and leave again with my anxiety. we saw each other once after around 5 weeks and she text me saying she wanted me to stay at the club (new years eve) but i had left as i just wasnt feeling good, we exchanged a few messages and then didn't speak for a few days. The next hing that happened left a shadow on our relationship on and off for a long time. I found out she had been dating someone whilst we had been speaking but split up, I felt hurt but also knew i had broken up with her so I coudnt be mad. We got into a fight and she said " you left me, i drank almost everyday and i just wanted the feelings to go, i told him i still loved you and wasn't open to anything but i was in no fit state and i just wanted to stop hurting) This was understandable but i still felt betrayed maybe because a few days earlier she was saying how she thought we would spend new years togther and was still saying she loved me. We had a fight about it and then she spoke to me on the phone saying she felt so ill, she was alone at her parents and was having panic attacks. i told her i didn't want her to be alone and to come to my house. we both slept for about 16 hours after not sleeping properly for weeks. We had a massive heart to heart and decided we would give it another go.

That is a lesson learned for you. As I shared with you previously, two great people can meet and not be right for each other. And two people can meet and the timing in their live is off. Remember, relationships are like planting a tree that will grow two big trunks. If your foundation, if your "root system" is setup to nurture both of you as you learn, grow, and grow old, then when a strong wind comes....

And she had a right to be angry. Anxious or avoidant people often make snap decisions based on the fears and the negative self-talk in their head. Lesson learned - moving foward - you need to be so open and so comfortable with each other by 3-4 months that if you decide to get "serious" with someone that they understand WHO you are and can decide for themselves how to proceed and when you become a 'couple', then you make major life decisions TOGETHER. 

And she was right to worry about your anxiety. Did you hold her hostage and/or threaten abandonment on her during the relationship because of your anxiety? That was modeled to me from my parents and grandmother growing up. Thankfully I only did it once in my first ltr years ago and I caught myself and made a vow to never do it again. But my recent ex did that to me a half dozen times or more. That's not born from love - it's born from conditioning and fear.

And that's why you also have to get to know someone before getting serious and why you both need the experience and the personal growth to be in place once it does get serious, because you have to accept the consequences of your actions, words, and choices. You recognize that now, but at the time your feelings were probably legitimately hurt, but she had the right to live her own life after you called things off, as you probably realize now.

I did struggle at first but also understood i had no right to be angry as i broke up with her but i struggled to think was she coming to try again because she felt guilty about what she had done or because she wanted to be with me, the next couple of months were pretty hard, i kept thinking she might leave and she kept thinking i didn't love her.

You understand that now, but probably didn't then. So it was another poison added to the toxicity of your relationship. And that's not a judgement against you, her, or both of you. You were both harmed, broken, (and she, young and inexperienced) people trying to love and be loved and your own weaknesses and shortcomings and hurts made it impossible for you both. The anger/resentment you felt probably only made things worse once you did get back together. 

 

I'd like to add to my reply. After reading your message and delving a little deeper into myself last night I think i discovered things other people had always tried to tell me but i thought were down to my anxiety disorder.

I used to think i was anxiously attached in relationships, other people said i was avoidant but i thought my avoidance came from avoiding things due to my anxiety such as social situations, going on vacation ect and that if i dealt with my generalized anxiety/panic and fear of going far from home my relationship would suddenly be fine but i struggled putting that pressure on myself. I now think I an anxious/avoidant and most of my history does seem to point to this, maybe slightly more towards avoidant in some things but then when a crisis hits and i realise what i have lost or a threat to the relationship i could be very honest with my ex about loving her, fearing i wasn't good enough, wanting the things she wanted such as being married ect but also being worried that it wasn't what she wanted, didn't accept me for who I was, she was settling or that once married i would just be expected to be a totally different person.

I'm not an license therapist nor even a holder of a psychology degree. But I have stayed at a Holiday Inn before....lol. Sorry, couldn't resist a light joke. Seriously, my experience and what I've learned and what others have taught me about my life and about life in general, is that being "avoidant" in relationships isn't the same thing as being social anxiety or not wanting to go out, etc.

Avoidance as an attachment style can manifest itself many ways (there's a great book I've been skimming through and using the past 9 months call "Attached - the New Science of Relationships" which, while not $5.00, may help you put some things into perspective about yourself and your ex if you're open and honest while using it) ... avoidance is about running away from and setting up roadblocks for the relationship and the partner from ever getting near a place to "hurt you".  Traits include not letting people into your heart/head, not opening up emotionally, not sharing what's really on your mind, there's no sacrifice of personal goals, lifestyle, etc. for the sake of the relationship (ever), often try to avoid "labels", say/do things to "downplay" the relationship, cannot be vulnerable or intimate (really vulnerable and intimate - they may learn a trait or a trick or two to appear that way, but closer, professional examination would proof the feeling isn't genuine), tends to not know how to rely on their partner to fill in their needs (emotional, physical, etc.,) and they may constantly look for reasons why the relationship won't work (softening what you feel is the inevitable "failure" of the relationship), or focusing on the negative aspects of the relationship and/or partners as a way not to boost your own ego, but to protect it from an inevitable failed relationship.

Anxious attachement style is an OVEREMPHASIS on the relationship. You lose you self-worth, even your self-identity in it, you worry too much about where you stand, you over worry about what you say and do and over analyze what your partner says and does. You're afraid of being judged or not having emotions reciprocated if you open up. you need constant (or more than "normal") reassurance of love, support, etc. from your partner. You're worried they'll leave even when things are going great. Maybe come off as "needy". Every time something changes or your partner is upset you analyze and wonder (and blame sometimes) yourself - you overemphasize the role you and the relationship play in your partner's life. 

If you ever watched Seinfeld growing up or reruns - while it's not perfect, the closest analogies I could think of right now because I'm tired is Elaine and George's dead fiancee. Elaine is avoidant. She doesn't always know how to get in touch with her emotions, she puts up barriers, and there's a wall that she won't let people past. Independent to the point where she misses out on life and opportunities because she doesn't know how to be vulnerable. Whereas George's dead fiancee is all over him, all the time, doesn't like separation, constantly worries, etc. (and again it's not perfect because we didn't see a ton of her and I don't remember the show that well anymore - but it's a start for an analogy).

From what you shared in this paragraph alone - that's not avoidant attachment, it's anxious. And a person predominately with one style can still have a behavior or trait or two from the other 2 styles. We're not all 100% one style. And that's where therapy, writing, finding a really good friend or two who can and are willing to help you become better can all help. For me, I was mostly anxious when I was younger. Life, my family, even friends made me feel insecure, not good enough, worried, always worried, about "the other shoe dropping". I had a hard time talking positively about myself and definitely did not recognize who I was, what I was worth, and what I bring to life, to a relationship, and even to something like a friendship. I've definitely become secure - but there's still some anxious traits in me...but I recognize them, I accept them, I own them, and I love myself because of them. 

So for the next ....X..... amount of time - your goal, your only goal, is to work on, learn to love, learn to challenge, and learn to become a better version of yourself. (NOTE - I DID NOT SAY "CHANGE" yourself. Because that's not the point. You are who you are. And someone one day will love you and stay with you just for that. But you can learn to change how you think, how you act, what you do and how you handle emotions and emotional situations that lead to better things and better relationships. 

 

I have aways known I have low self esteem which i try to hide and i can sometimes look very narcisistic with my coping mechanisms, if i fear doing something i will say i'm not that type or person, if you want to do that go and do it but it's not for me. when my ex would i would sulk thinking "but i want to go, Please dont leave because you will find someone better than me"

And that's where and why you now focus on yourself and your own recovery. They say, and I'm living proof, that you find love when you're not looking for it. And that you find lasting love when you're ready for it. And I know one day I'll find lasting love. Just don't let yourself start thinking everyone in a relationship or married is SO LUCKY. Come'on - you know better to believe that ego boosting s*** we tell ourselves. Let singlehood suck for a while and then learn how to make it fun. 

I was a bit controlling, i didn't tell her where she could go or who she could see, what she could wear or money ect but i would just act out a bit or be moody if she went out with friends because i would then feel like she can do these things without me, I have to stay home and be lonely and almost like a petulant child. I didn't express it this way and she just thought i didn't want her going out which wasn't the case. She would text me a lot when she was out with friends because i think she thought this would ease my mind but i would get annoyed like i had been left and say you dont have to text me all of the time. When she came home i would want to feel comforted and hug her but instead i would be a bit cold until i felt ok. Not the best behaviour for a 37 year old guy.

Yeah - that's not controlling. That's emotional hijacking. That's attempted shame in the 2nd degree. And that's immature - like petulant child as you said. But guess what....now you know. And now you know the goal is to learn to express what you feel more and accept whatever comes of it. To not hold back in fear of judgment or shame or abandonment. And to realize a partner can have hobbies and friends without you (again....within reason. If you have to schedule 5-10 minutes to talk every day or can never find time to do something last minute together you're just a trophy at that point) and that relationships, while never clean, balance out in the long run - work, hobbies, together time, time alone, time with mutual friends, time with personal friends, time with her family, time with yours, etc.

I would also look for reasons that she didn't love me and found it hard to trust she did, her being anxiously attached also meant we clashed a lot. At least i would say she was anxiously attached, often saying things such as I love you more than you love me, and she would look to me and how i was and think it was a direct result of her and looking back i can't blame her as it would look this way to anyone.

Yeah - that's a sign of anxious attachment. It's a defense mechanism meant to protect her heart/feelings from the fear of abandonment and to judge and shame someone like they feel judged and shamed. Moving forward, someone does that to you in a relationship and they're older than 21 - instant goodbye! 

I would fantasise in my head about us being married, about her friends liking me and being close with her family, something she really wanted and i did too but was scared. I constantly thought she doesn't want her friends to come to our house, or her family to come here but maybe she thought i didn't want them here, i'll never know. I do know that she would ask me to visit her parents and i would when i felt able, i think she thought i was uncomfortable or anxious so would try and get us to leave as soon as possible but when there i would actually feel a lot better and more included, her mum always made me feel welcome, I got along well with her father (her sister was not a fan of mine) and sometimes her I thought her mum didn't like me so i would be mean when in reality i knew that her mum just wanted the best for her daughter, saw we didn't do a lot of the things normal couples do and wanted her to have more. for me this seemed like an attack on me like i wasn't good enough which i fear a lot so this caused some friction although my ex used to say she doesn't not like you she just wanted to feel like more of a family.

Family approval, especially for a woman, is critically important 90/100 times. And yes, you create a cyclical, downward, self-perpetuating spiral it seems. But again, that's where in the future you shared your fears out loud, you and you partner agree on a strategy to address them, and you work on them. And fantasy is bad. I think a lot of "good men" (i put that in quotes because "nice guys" isn't actually a good thing and in psychology is negative) who get hurt and abandoned or suffer other trauma early in life feel end up opening up a "theme park" in their head. Life is meant to be lived, not dreamt. And yes, our dreams for ourselves and our lives can and should change year after year after year, but on the daily basis we need to be doing not dreaming. And of course, her parents had that right to want the best for her...but your job isnt to convince them. It's to show them and to show her. And you just let your anxiety get the best of you at times. But you can learn how to control it and even reduce it.

The push and pull must have been very hard on my ex, feeling like what i say and what i do are very different which can feel like i was manipulating her but i think it was just i only said those things from my safe place, where i didn't feel i would be left or i felt i had no other option because then the relationship would end which i didn't want to happem. I did feel a lot of guilt that she didn't get to do a lot of thing but also felt a lot of pressure to be different, like she was waiting for this change and until that happened she couldn't love me. I am not sure if this was actually the case or she was saying I love you but i need to feel loved too.

She's not perfect. And you're not 100% to blame either. Remember that. I'm glad you realize how you ex must have felt. That's good progress that will help you close some wounds and move on in time. I know for myself, I've come to that point too. And while I tried to be the kind, loving, patient, understanding, affirming, caring, affectionate man she claimed she wanted, she was still not getting anything from her family and she was still not mature enough to realize her family would never change and that the only person who could change her life and let herself receive love was me. And we didn't tell her parents about me (big mistake on my part)...and looking back, the pull to be the "good girl" she tried to pretend to be to everyone except her sister, was too great a weight and her love for me would never be enough to confront her parents, so nothing I could have done or said or changed would have made an ultimate difference in the end. Remember - you deserve love, happiness, understanding, and support too.

The one thing i couldn't work out though is she kind of seemed a little avoidant too, maybe that was me projecting onto her or maybe there was something in that. For instance she said she wanted to feel like it was our home but got sad when her parents converted her old room into another room and we had been living together 2 years at this point, She said it was because she didn't feel secure and not that she was looking for a back up. Also she would mention marriage a lot, i thought she was trying to make me anxious and didn't actually want to get marrried but maybe she did because she thought it would make us feel closer, something she was having trouble getting from me. I know I could have married her, i know we could have had children but i wanted us to feel ok first and also not to feel like i had trapped her and to some extent not to feel someone now depended on me.

 

That would make her anxious. Avoidant styles RUN AWAY from "titles". And yeah - that's not a great coping mechanism. People have to learn how to love themselves first. Getting married doesn't fill a void. Trust me - we all know a lot of babies that were born when couples were in need of a solution to their "problems". No judgement against the kids as humans. Just...people will use almost ANYTHING to fill the void. One thing to read up on and work with a therapist on is co-dependency. I'm less familiar with that, but there's plenty of great resources out there. Not only for you to examine for yourself, but also to learn about in context of your ex and how she behaved. 

The fearful attachment gets seems to get a really bad wrap when reading about it online saying they are horrible and they push and pull, don't get involved with one ect. I can see how this may have been written by someone who has been in a relationship and feels the other person doesn't care. I can say whole heartedly I do very much love my ex and always have, But i feel different to how others feel love, when i think I am giving enough others dont feel what i feel which is generally content with how things are. I don't expect someone to settle for me though and this was one of the guilt parts of our relationship, i felt i had to make things right because she had invested so much time and waited for me so long which wasn't fair on her. I knew i'd never leave her but I did fear oneday she would leave me. I pushed her away back to her mums on numerous occasions only for me to tell her i miss her and how much i really cared, then when she came back it was like i closed back up. I did really try though it was no walk in the park for me and i said many times I really am trying, it's a lot easier for me to not be in a relationship but i want to be with you.

And that's why you have both attachment styles. Predominantly anxious from my vantage point, but with some avoidant traits in there (which probably trigger when the anxious traits get unchecked and lead you on a seesaw journey (or roller coaster ride).

I wish i didn't have some of the trauma i do from being a child and i wasn't anxious as i feel like the most wonderful person has slipped through my grasp but i know if she came back i'd struggle to make it right and maybe never would feel safe.

And that's true and a lesson to take forward with you. Make k100danny the best person he can be and work on yourself for a while. That doesn't mean no sex nor does it mean there's an exact timeline. But you and any potential future partner deserve a better version of you. Remember that. And remember - we all are broken in at least one, if not a dozen ways. A healthy relationship is about loving the broken pieces of each other and if you can imagine a cartoon in your head of two tea cups in pieces, shaped like humans, you and your partner are laughing, teasing, crying, (f'ing), etc. all while gluing yourselves back together and of course, helping the other person glue themselves at times two). 

We eventually settled down or at least i think we did, her knowing fully about my anxiety i feel let me be more vulnerable and we started to do things i hadn't done in years, go away on holidays together a few times, france, spain, USA (we are from the uk) and I started to feel a lot better in myself, the most secure and stable i had felt probably ever, I used to live with my parents whilst struggling with anxiety but after 2.5 years together I moved out into my own house and she moved in shortly after until a few weeks ago so we lived together almost 5 years. There was always some arguments on and off but a lot of this I think was me, i sometimes when things were going good would think of the times i felt betrayed when we first got together but werent serious and would feel unloved or that she might leave me, i was insecure but so was she although she didnt show it through jealousy. I did feel smothered at one point when she was studying and i was working full time i felt a lot of pressure on me and i started to again feel anxious a bit but we still had another couple of pretty good years before things started to really go bad.

And that's another lesson for you - because you weren't on solid ground to start, that time together, even a few "good years" - wasn't laying a real base/foundation/root system for your relationship. I'm not saying it was "wasted time" - because you didn't know any better. But now you do. I realize that now with my last ex and my exfiancee from years ago. As much as I loved them, they didn't end up building the emotional roots with me to make things last. Unfortunately only time (or a keen eye with lots of experience (usually born through pain and suffering) in dating and relationships) can tell you that. 

I was in therapy and still am for my anxiety and i thought i had anxious attachment and maybe she did too , we both have low self esteem although i tend to pretend i dont to cover my insecurities, she is open that she looked to me to make her feel better and was very reactive to how she perceived my mood to be, i felt a lot of strain for this like I wanted her to be content but also that i was under a lot of pressure. When we moved in together after about 2 years we were fighting more, i had started to get really anxious again, she was asking about marraige, children etc but it didn't seem right. What I mean by this is i thought she wanted those to feel secure and not that we felt secure so we should which is how i think marriage and children should be done, not done to try and make someone feel better but do them because you feel like you're ready. She said initially hald jokingly that i had 5 years to propose and i think this may have made my anxiety worse. My anxiety got so bad from around the end of 2017 i was worrying a lot more, from the start of 2018 it got even worse. I knew she wanted me to get fully well and i felt she woudnt be happy until I was, this made me want to get well but also made my anxiety worse, what if i can't do that, what if she leaves me and this started a spiral. We were fighting a lot, she wanted me to do things and i felt guilty i coudnt so we would get into fights, I didn't feel i could express my needs and started to not feel comfortable or let myself be vulnerable as i felt the person i was with wasn't accepting of me being anxious she was just putting up with me waiting for me to change so she would be happy in a fulfilling relationship. This made me withdraw even more as i didn't feel supported and that made her feel worse because she didn't think i loved her.

Exactly. As I already said - people will try to fill their insecurities (or the hole in their souls as I call it) using the craziest s*** you can imagine - kids, relationships, marriages, careers, and even really crazy s***. And that doesn't do them or the other person any good in the long run. And that's where you learn healthy coping mechanisms and also learn how to express your feelings, your fears, and get your wants/needs fulfilled (legitimate needs) in the relationship. 

My anxiety makes me worry a lot, when i worry i go off into my head and it was hard to meet her needs whilst struggling with my own, I think she saw this as me being selfish, not caring and only giving her love and attention when i wanted it not when she needed it, But for me it felt i gave it when i could, when i was having a less anxious hour or less anxious day. I can see looking in from the outside someone might have said he's self centred, maybe bordering on narcisist as i would get very angry with her and push her away then ask her to come back. I realised i was into a bit of a cycle of abusive behaviour, where i lashed out to not feel attacked if she would get annoyed about me not doing things , i would feel attacked and ashamed for suffering with anxiety and i would push her away so i didn't have to do social things ect and then i would feel guilty because i knew she deserved someone without those issues. But i realyl did want to be that person, it wasn't nice for me but i can see how it wasn't nice for her feeling that she wasnt supported, i wasnt going to family meals ect. In a childish way to not deal with my anxiety I used to say this is me, like it or leave and things like that when i didnt want her to leave but i felt i couldnt admit that i felt so low because i couldnt do these things.

Can't add anything to this. I think your analysis and self-analysis is spot on, based on what you shared. This is the GREAT LESSON for you to learn. That's why relationships with one or two unhealthy partners don't last. Or they fall apart even after 25, 40 years together. Question is do they topple from a strong gust of wind or from a tornado? 

The last 18 months it became apparent that We were both struggling in the relationship and things got a bit spiteful between us, i felt she judged me for being anxious and wasn't happy with how i was ike i didn't feel accepted. I understood why she felt the way she did and wanted me to do those things but i felt like s*** in myself like i was living with someone who was waiting for me to change and she wasn't happy with me. I accepted her fort he most part i think and didn't want her to changed, i just wished she was happy. we fought and split up numerous times over the last 18 months and then i felt a change. She was asking me what i would like to do after lockdown, i said nothing just carry on as i am (I knew she was looking for me to say something or give her some reassurance we would do more) but i was being petulant as i felt like she didn't love me as i was. She started to pull away then one night i felt something was really off and i said something doesn't feel right, i feel like i can read you and she said i've been looking to buy a house, I tod myself it was an investment but i think I'm just thinking I might not get what i want from this relationship, I know how anxious you are and if we got married or had kids i'd worry that it wouldnt be how i wanted or i'd worry you felt anxious on our wedding day then i wouldn't be able to enjoy it. I asked when she planned on telling me as she was living at my house (I own it but it was our house although she said she didn't feel like it was hers and wanted to buy a place together) she said it was just at the thought stage but since lockdown she realised we dont do much goether anymore, our life was between these 4 walls and she realised how much she used friends and family to meet her needs because she wasn't getting it from our relationship due to my anxiety and not being able to offer her the reassurance she needs, also we had fought so much she wasnt sure she could get past it and thought i would always feel guilty for the fights we had had. I asked her to leave that night. I didnt want her to i was looking for her to say no we can work on this but she left. 

And that's the point where you walk away. For her safety and well being and for your own. And yup - that was astute on your part - she didn't have the emotional capability to support you as she was a hot mess. And don't blame yourself. If you learn, if you grow, if you challenge yourself and if you accept your failures and mistakes and seek to improve - you did the best you could given the hand you were dealt and the cards you received. But HUGE thing for you - you do no threaten someone (or threaten abandonment). There's no "test" to pass in a relationship per se. Meaning the second you emotionally hijacked but telling her to go (when you say you really just wanted her to stay) - that's a red flag and no offense to you personally, good for her for leaving. She deserved better than that. And you deserve better from yourself. 

I dont want to say i settled, she really is a great person, beautful, attractive, kind but also very insecure and I didn't feel good enough, I felt for her to be happy I had to be well or had to be something im not. This caused a big divide that got worse, i said numerous times that I did want to marry her but i felt she wanted to marry me to flll a void, or have kids because it would make her feel better and not because she was content and happy and for this reason i didnt do it. I do feel there was a lot more stuff from her side that caused issues too though so maybe we just clashed, she constantly needed to feel reassured by the person she was with and the person she was with couldn't give that whilst trying to deal with their own issues. She said she started to feel more low over the last 2 years, she has suffered with depression in the past, she has body issues and has had a few surgeries to make her feel better (which i didn't agree with and thought she should try to feel better in herself without turning to that) I know she had these feelings before me as her mum took her for cosmetic surgery at 17 before i knew her but i think we being so wrapped up in myself made her feel even worse but i wouldnt have changed a thing about the way she looked, she is the best looking and smartest person i have ever been in a relationship and i accepted her looks and loved how she looked. I do think however that i blamed myself a bit too much, i hope i didnt make her issues worse and i do hope she is happier now or will be in the future but i also put up with a lot of stuff such as not feeling i could express myself for fear that she would say i said something i didnt. For instance i would smell food and say "what are you having?" and she might say god i wont eat if you think i shouldn't be eating or if she was laid on my and i wasn't comfortable and asked if she would move she may say that she isnt that heavy or imply i called her fat (I have never said a bad thing about her weight or looks) she was slim and pretty. So a lot of the time i think we both felt like we were walking on eggshells. She wasn't sure if i was in an anxious mood and i wasn't comfortable around her thinking she was judging my mental health or that she would almost use me to make herself feel bad, she mentioned she sometimes pushed my buttons to get a reaction so she could then think she was a bad person.

And that's the story. She had to love you for who you are NOW and where you are NOW. And if she was waiting she wasn't seemingly doing anything, or much, to help you. And while it's not her job to fix you (as it's not your job to fix her), she was young, inexperienced, and was probably still in the Disney Princess mindset early on in your relationship and once things started going down hill a second time after a few years of "good"...she didn't know what to do and stuck around way too long for her own good and your own good.  And good for you, recognizing how she acted out her shame against you. So again, do not let yourself or anyone in real life or on here beat you up or shame you for the failed relationship. It's a two way street and you were both (well, are) broken, hurt individuals. And yup - you're 37 now. Stay above 25 in age at least. Probably 28-30 by the time you're ready for another relationship. And don't stand for drama. And don't settle just to be in a relationship. You deserve much more and so does your future potential partner. And you didn't "settle" and neither did she. You just didn't know any better and didn't have the experience and the skills to fix yourselves while in a relationship.

I maybe did put up with more than i would if i felt a bit more self worth and wasn't anxious, i didnt think i could meet someone else, didnt want to be alone and really did love her but had my own struggles. I think i may be anxious/fearful but i look avoidant because of unrelated anxiety and it means i do struggle with relationships, will stay longer than is healthy and fear them ending too. There were times too she would say things like ive always been in a relationship, i cant go on a date without it turning into one and i just though thats not a nice thing to say as it doesn't make me feel good or that you want to be here and for a long time i wasn't sure she actually did wan't to be here, I thought she was scared of it ending or just didnt want to live at home with her mum who she doesnt get on with.

Yup. That's insensitive and selfish on her part. But this last paragraph I think is so juicy and reflective of what you already know about yourself and the relationship and why it didn't and wouldn't last. Just keep processing these feelings and doing the "work". It does get better.

 

Im sorry im not really good at writing or expressing how i feel so that may just look like a big jumbled mess but it's just a rough overview of our relationship.

 

No apologies here. It's love and understanding and guidance meant for those with an open heart and an open mind. 

[scooby-philly]

Apologies for some of the spelling and grammatical errors. But one major thing I just caught and hate how you can't edit a post after a day on this site - when I talked about my exes problems in the part about fantasizing, I meant to say the only one who could her life was her (not me. remember - no savior complexes allowed!)

[k100danny]

scooby-philly

 

Thanks massively for you well put together replies, you put things in very simple terms and don't stick any bulls*** in there for filler. 

 

I am kind of glad she endd the cycle, As it has made me take a long hard look at myself, my issues, my insecurities and where i went wrong but also where i didn't feel valued either. That would have been hard to do had we stayed in the relationship. I have apologised to her for how i was in the relationship and I do feel a huge amount of guilt and shame. I was inexperienced, childish and being with someone much younger(not to blame her) we both didn't know how to handle things.

 

Some things I have learnt about myself since the break up, i knew I did some of these things obviously whilst doing them but wasn't sure on WHY i did them.

*acting out when i felt i couldn't express my feelings either out of fear or because of my own ego. My ex went out with her friends a lot, saw her family when she wanted and had her own hobbies but instead of me saying "I sometimes get jealous or a bit worried when you are out because i have low self esteem" i would act out. i suppose the best thing would be for me to work on my self esteem but if i find myself feeling like i am manipulating someone because i can't express how i feel then communication is key.

 

* Accepting that good people sometimes do bad things and that even though a lot of my behaviour was pretty much what you would call abusive (for the last 2 years) I didn't know how to handle it, that doesn't excuse it and she didn't deserve that. That being said I think i was also on the receiving end sometimes and thats not me passing the buck, I don't know which came first the chicken or the egg. I do know that at the start of our relationship i tried to be very honest, i would express my fear but she would say things like "this is why i don't like relationships" " it seems controlling" when i was just expressing how i felt and looking for reassurance. She also once broke up with me early on after she had been on a night out, i had a feeling something was off she was being very quiet so i asked her about it. She said i was grilling her and she coudn't deal with this ect and hung up on me only to call back, say sorry and that she just had thougts of her controlling ex. I didn't find out until over a year later she had gone out that night and had 2 male friends stay at her house. I was not happy about being lied to.

 

* people will tell you who they are you just have to listen... I feel I did have some secure attachment too and wanted things to feel like a team. I often felt this wasn't the case and let me explain. My girlfriend never asked me for any money which we were together, she wasn't someone who bought designer items or wanted the best of everything but money was an issue in our relationship. I ended up feeling guilty when i really think i shouldnt have, and was also made to feel like i should pay for a lot more.  For the first 3 years of our relationship i paid for most things, she wasn't working and i had no problem doing this, i paid for 2 foreign holidays and as far as I'm aware never made her feel guilty for this.

When she started working and moved in she said you've paid for a lot, i want to contribute whilst living here, how much does it cost to live each month, i explained and i said i don't want you to pay half just what you are comfortable with, she did and i felt closer like we were a team, the only problem was this amount would come up again and have to be revised several times as she wasn't happy. On one occasion she said the bills aren't much more with me living with you then if you were alone so i don't see why i should pay, i should maybe just buy food. we changed the amount around 3 times and ended up with her not giving me anything but putting that money into a joint account we both had which we would also use for saving, I ended up feeling guilty and even though i was paying all of the bills i was also putting money in that account because i now feel she thinks i'm taking advantage of her, the money in the joint account kept going up when we split we got 50/50 each. 

When it came to things moving forward she often dragged her feet and then in some way it was made out that i was avoidant or that she didn't feel safe so it was in some way my fault. For instance I said you've moved in why aren't all of your clothes ect here, she said well i just have what i need here the rest is at my mums, I said i feel like you're not really commited and she said it was to do with space and having nowhere to put things so i bought some drawers and furniture again these didn't seem to get used. she said she had no wardrobe space but when we planned the wardrobes in ikea she said " well i need more space than that" I said the house is only so big and its a lot of storage then it came " but where will i put my shoes" I should have seen this as a flag that she wasn't really wanting to commit but because we had arguments before and she had gone back to her mums (sometimes me telling her to go) I put it down to this and eventually she pretty much moved everything she had here

when i asked why she went to her mums every weekend to see her sister yet her mum and sister hardly ever came to our house she would say she doesn't feel its her space even though i assured her i would love it if her friends came over, we would feel more like a couple and i would love it if her mum popped round for a coffee ect, this rarely happened. She would say well we have garden furniture at my mums but then when we tried to pick stuff for out own garden we could never agree. 

When she was going out with work friends she would always meet them at her mums not our house (her mum has a very big nice house) and i felt she is either ashamed of where we live, not a big house but inside our house is really nice , well decorated, modern and i really wanted her friend and family to see where she actually lived. this seemed off to me too but there was always an excuse why it couldn't be here.

She said she didn't feel like it was her home because I owned it so i said she could give me some money and we could add her name it would be both of ours, she made out i was asking for too much even though she could literally have left me the next day and been 20k better off. we would then say we would do it but i felt again like i was trying to rip her off. When we started dating i earnt a lot more than her but over the last few years it evened out to pretty similar. There was also the issue of her saying I need a new car and when i said just go and buy one we have the money, or take the payments from the joint account she said no, i took this as she didnt want us both to own things together, she wanted to be independent (nothing wrong with that) or maybe she wanted us to buy another home together but after the arguments about money before i was reluctant to bring it up again. On one occasion when I said look the amount you're paying is really fair, if you lived in a tiny little flat in a s***ty part of town it would cost you 3 times as much and here you have nice furniture, cable tv with EVERY channel, netflix, amazon prime, every kitchen gadget and washing machine you need her reply was " but if i didn't live here i would live with my mum and that would be free" and she said at one point my dad bought my mum 2 houses to which i replied they are married and have been together 30 years.

I do think and element of this was she wanted us to feel like we owned the home together but looking back i think there may have been more to it.

Also things i overlooked and took her word for were a few things that made me feel insecure.  I have listed them below

*told me about other guys hitting on her or the boss at work speaking a bit innapropriately which i didn't want to here. No good can come from this, it would make me feel insecure and aslong as who i am with acts in a way that someone in a relationship should I do NOT need to know about this stuff

*Once she for some reason blurted out in conversation what her passwords were for online accounts and i told her mine, I realise this seems like we were both over sharing but we werent actually asking each other and im not sure how this came about. Around 6 months later i had a weird feeling and i am ashamed to say I logged into her account and found a conversation when we had been together about 3 months between her and a guy she had met at a festival months before, saying how nice it was to meet her and how he was glad he found her on facebook, she was sending him pictures that they had taken together (someone she had only met for 1 day) arms round each other, kissing each other on the cheek in selfies ect and i thought this was very strange, how someone you randomly met online found you and why you would be sharing images you took, this was also how i found out 2 guys stayed at her house. During this snooping session I also found that whilst we were having an argument once and she wasn't replying to me she had actually reached out to her ex (the one who beat her) nothing sexual but she reached out to him and she ended the conversation saying he would always be special to her too. I really wasn't happy about this because she used to tell me he had been in touch a lot and say she was upset by it, i said cut contact you don't owe him anything and she said she couldn't because she felt guilty.

I always justified some of the things she did when i realy wasn't ok with it and i think it led to a lot of resentment, for the most part i got over it but i think it was in the back of my mind.

More recently well 3 years into the relationship she out of the blue accepted a friend request from someone i know, she mentions this to me saying your friend added me on facebook, nothing strange there a lot of my friends added her whilst we were together but the strange thing here is i hadn't seen this guy in about 8 years, he didn't know her and i knew exactly what he was like. He had slept with one of my friends girlfriends and also one of my friends ex fiances straight after so i know he's a slimey guy. I said look I am not happy about this. You haven't done anything wrong at all but because ive known this guy since we were kids and i know how he is i feel he is disrespecting me if that makes sense? I said i'd prefer you not to reply to him again and explained some of the things he had done in the last (i believe they call it sliding in the dm's) she said ok, then proceded to tell me he had messaged again, this happened a couple more times and she replied before she got a job at the same large company he worked at, her in the office him in the factory and he messaged again) I said look I find this strange, why you have a compulsion to reply saying you "don't want to offend him" when you don't know him but i am really bothered by this, i feel you're taking someone elses side who you don't know over my feelings. If you don't say something I think i have to because i know this guy and im not happy. she did say in the end "sorry where did we meet" and he never replied which basically tells me exactly what i needed to know.

within the last few years some of the things she said sounded like she was single. Nothing like talking about other guys but I can't really explain it. Like you'd say it slightly different if you were part of a couple and i felt she wasn't in it for the long haul. There was also the things like " I can't go on a date without getting into a relationship" things like i love your family so much i stick around for them, half joking but i felt like s***.

The last time something happened like this was when we had had a disagreement, i was sat downstairs watching something on her ipad and she was laid in bed on a weekend morning and a instagram notification pops up and i see the name of this guy, think nothing of it, couple of minutes later another one pops up and i start to think whats going on. I click on it and they are having a conversation. she had put up a picture at the gym and he had replied saying we should go to the gym together or something along those lines then it was a bit cryptic and sounded like euphemisms. I would say it was slightly flirty. I confronted her and she said oh I didn't know he was flirting, i even asked my sister if it seemed flirty, well if youve got to ask someone you pretty much know it is. and rather than say look im sorry it came across that way i didn't mean it which would have in some ways eased my worried she said " I could have him if i want i obviously dont want to" Not a nice thing to hear

 

I do realise these facebook and instagram stories sound and probably are childish. I need to work on feeling secure and definitely shouldnt invade someones privacy even though i found something it doesn't make it right. I also need to not manipulate people when i think there is a risk of them leaving as if they are willing to leave or be lead astray then that is someone i dont want to be with. I think i fear letting my gaird down and being taken advantage of but i am deeply sorry for some of my behaviours whilst we were together and i genuinely did like being with her and had some great times. I hope my ways didn't have a lasting effect on her and didn't contribute to her self esteem issues but i think they did in some ways and we triggered each other in other ways. I was an anxious child that didn't get his needs met (no excuse) i was very fearful and i my dad was very scary, he once when i was very young and was crying for my mum took me out into the countryside at night and threatened to abandon me in the middle of nowhere unless i stopped crying and did as he said, that and a lot of other things i think contribute to my anxiety and feeling i can't express my needs in a healthy way. She also had some issues, she found her mum was having an affair when she was 13 and she caught her sleeping with someone else, her dad has always lived in other countries and only comes back for a month here and there maybe 3 months per year. her mum asked her to keep it s secret and it was a big burden on her, she begged her mum to stop and she carried on and basically picked her lover over her child, she moved out age 14 into her boyfriends parents home and this was the abusive relationship, she stayed with him 4 years and only briefly went back to her mums between uni and moving in with me, they have a very strained relationship. Her mum basically says get what you can from men as does her sister and that they are no good, she tries so hard to go against this and is maybe why she stayed in 2 bad relationships. I hope one day she forgives me for how i was and is a lot happier in herself.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me, I really am struggling but at the same time i feel I am learning a lot more about myself that i couldnt have in the relationship because i thought the issues were other things until looking from afar. I still miss her greatly, even though at the end i felt judged i also felt safe with her and im struggling to come to terms with living alone and very isoloated due to my anxiety disorder

 

 

[scooby-philly]

No thanks necessary. We are all here to support one another. Unfortunately in a lot of the forums, that support comes about through bad times. But that's what makes this a great place. And I don't believe in filler! And I don't respond unless I have a very articulated, precise response to give and as I said in the DM to you, I'm at a point where I'm only responding to threads where I have direct experience with a similar situation and can offer my own lessons learned, thoughts, or things to ponder.

Sometimes we just don't know when or how to walk away from things. We're afraid of losing what we have, not realizing that eventually something better may come along. Or we're afraid to admit that a relationship isn't working out and we fear social judgment, or perceived potential judgment, or we just don't know any better. As I've said at least once to you - two great people can prove to not be the "right" people for each other long-term. And experiencing guilt and shame are important. You can't linger there, you cannot let those emotions control your life. But feeling that way for a while is okay. It's part of the healing process. And it's part of learning about yourself, being vulnerable and transparent and learning and owning what you need to fix about yourself. And recognizing your own faults, her faults, and how they clashed and made it really improbable that you could last forever will be important in eventually closing the wound and moving forward a better person and a better potential partner for someone else in the future.

Those "acting out" scenarios...you hit he nail on the head. There's better ways to express things and to talk about things. And ways to reduce your anxious attachment style and turn it into a secure style. Those are born out of repeated events in our youths that condition us to fear losing people close to us, from being not able to express emotions or only certain emotions. And they're impulsive. If you could stand back and have someone guiding your thoughts in real time at those moments, you'd probably have made different choices. But we don't have people on our shoulders so you can only unlearn the unhealthy behavior through repeated practice over time. Now again, I'm not a fan of a lot of relationships these days where two people are only together to feel like they "have it all" or relationships where one party is a "trophy" so the other feels validated, "normal", etc. Or people who just are so selfish they don't know how to have a real relationship, but feel pressured (or self-pressured) to appear like they're normal to society. But to each their own. But to your point - working on your self-esteem will help you not only avoid the childish behavior, it will also help you learn what you truly want/need in a relationship. Now....a lot of good folks on here would tell you - there's a fine line there. You do not and should not "need" a relationship to be happy, to feel content or fulfilled, to go out and live the life you want. So you have to break yourself of any neediness on that front. But a good healthy relationship DOES include both parties having needs/wants that a partner can fill. And knowing what you need/want and deciding what's non-negotiable and what is for you will help you weed through the sea of available options in the future and also help you say "no" when something or someone isn't right or isn't ready.

As I said to you in my quick DM earlier, you cannot go back and change the past. All you can do is take that realization - that good people can hurt others - and learn from it, take the shame, the guilt, the sadness you feel about being a jerk, being childish, being controlling, being a hot mess, and learn how to get better, get better, and then try again. Relationships are two-way streets as we say in the USA. She could have just as easily left, but she didn't. So while it's right and justified to feel like crap about yourself, you can learn to change your behavior and to address the underlying FEELINGS and beliefs that CAUSE that behavior in you. You'd be surprised how much you can grow and change over several years with some consistent effort. But it's not overnight. And it's not one or two big things. It's the momentum of  1,000 choices. Think about the concept of how spaceships accelerate. Tiny little increases in momentum in space, spread out over time, create HUGE thrust and speed. That's the trick. And part of that process will also be you learning how to check yourself and who to forgive yourself. 1 year in, 2 years in, 10 years in, you'll still foul up from time to time. That's just life and the condition of humanity. You apologize, you forgive yourself, and you commit to being better. And yes, very often you can start out in a relationship one way, and the other person's behavior can slowly, subtlety change you and how you respond. Now, moving forward as a person looking to become more "enlightened" - you're still responsible for your own behavior, perception, viewpoint, at the end of the day. But you can learn how to spot when you're changing because of someone else and you can learn how to say no and how to check yourself over time to make sure you're staying who and want you want to be as a man, a person, a partner. And in your story, while the line seems to be something an avoidant attachment style might say - she sounds like she was anxious like you (though we haven't talked much about her) so it could have just been her trying to protect herself from a repeat of being with a controlling partner. But....moving forward...in a similar situation...it's your right to end things if the other person can't learn and grow and over the course of a year or two together, doesn't at least try really hard to change. Remember, your job is not to fix a partner. And yeah - I would be mad if I was dating someone and she had two guy friends stay over without my knowledge (let alone presence) if I didn't know them well and we hadn't been together for a long while and there wasn't a justified reason. 

Yeah - sex, religion, politics, children or no children, how to raise children, lifestyle (going out a lot or not), money (spend vs save, and also how to split bills, etc.), relationship with family, and long-term career related matters, are the main points that have to be worked through. And that's a very manipulative thing to say about the bills. I mean, certain things like electricity, gas, heating (if it's not electric), cooling, etc. - shouldn't increase much because you're paying more so for the cost of supplying that to the entire flat/house. But other things - water, food, etc. will increase somewhat (if not entirely) proportional to the # of people in the house. But even then, it's not a question of the other person not contributing much to the cost of the bills, but the idea of having shared responsibility and the fact that they would be paying the same amount (in theory - but maybe more or less depending on their lifestyle) for the same things if they were own their own. So in the end, you both end up saving. And you DO NOT JOIN ACCOUNTS OF ANY KIND...till you're married. Sorry. But that's a hard lesson for a lot of people. There's absolutely no reason to do that until you're married. You can share information and you can and should sit down and budget together once you hit two years or move in together. And lots of people don't even like the idea of joint accounts even after you're married. But I don't like that. But I wouldn't ever advocate joining accounts before any legal arrangement (i.e. marriage) is made to protect you both. And yeah, plenty of people are very weird with money and don't realize that hey - it should be 50/50 in a perfect world, but almost no couple makes the same exact salary, so it's always a little one-sided. And while people can lose their jobs, I wouldn't try dating someone who doesn't work. Now in your case, she was young (was she in school at first?) so that's a different story. But that's the other lesson of dating someone 18-24, especially if they haven't gone out and lived and managed life and finances on their own - they're clueless about what things really cost and how life will make you go through hard choices when you have to count on yourself to pay the rent/mortgage, pay the car loan, pay for gas, pay for food, pay for utilities, etc. And yes, people will often, unconsciously usually, tell you up front in the first few months who they really are. Because they can't help it. I know with my crazy psycho ex - about 3 weeks in I was going to walk away and we ended up meeting and she pulled the whole tears and "why can't I be happy" martyr act. I knew it right then, but silly, foolish me, put up with a drama filled, disrespectful, and neurotic relationship for almost a year. Last ex, yeah, about 3 months in I started noticing certain things that pointed to her inexperience, her "good girl" persona, her immaturity. But at 7 months in came the first real case of threatened abandonment and absolute immaturity and senseless drama. And that's where and when I should have left. Because it was clear, or should have been, where she was in life and what mattered the most to her - keeping up the "good girl" act. Not building her own life and building a life with someone. 

Dragging feet, avoiding labels, etc. are all avoidant attachment tricks. And then blaming you is another way they try to hide their inability to open up. And yeah - the story about your ex and the clothes - that's classic. It's giving her ego/psyche a "way out". It helps her convince herself that if things don't work out, she won't have to bring EVERYTHING back home. And look - part of this is your inexperience and your problems and your low self-esteem. But lesson learned. I used to advise women if they asked about a guy's intention - guys make s*** clear if they like you, if they want a relationship, if they want to get married. Or they should. While women can be more complex, when you get to the living together stage, even if it's "your place" originally, they'll make it known if they see things working out long-term or if they're wishy-washy or if they're really unsure. The latter two, when you start dating again in the distant future - walk away. If by a year or 1.5 years they're not so in love with you that they're being normal women and taking OVER your space....then move on. No matter what the reason, even if it's because they've been abused or hurt in the past, move on. You both, especially you, deserve better. And no you know - you do not threaten abandonment or tell someone to leave or let some leave. Maybe once. MAYBE twice. But repeatedly and you both stay in the relationship?.....that means neither of you have healthy habits, can communicate, and have little self-respect. So keep that in mind moving forward. 

And yeah - women LOVE TO SHOW OFF someone when they're really in love and see a future. If they don't, if they hide you, or they don't like having friends over or family over, that's a sign she's either scarred/hurt and not recovered, or she's got another issue, or she just doesn't love you that much. And yeah, if someone moves in with you - it's now THEIR place too. And if they're not even able to have people come over to meet before going out - there's something wrong and it's time to GO. A lot of younger women in particular will feel bad if they/they bfs don't have a nice place - realizing that normal people don't expect a 20 or 24 yr old to have a really fancy home or a million dollar flat. And those that do - they can suck it in my opinion lol. 

And yeah - that just sounds crazy. Yeah, she could live at her mum's place for "free"...but that's not a valid counter argument to your point. Sounds like her family didn't talk to her, teach her, or set her up to be independent and to work for what she wants. And that's unfair to her and to any potential partner of hers. And someone reverse sexist in this day and age. But...that's another example of her not really working TOGETHER to build something. And it shows a level of bitterness and anger that a lot of women (for guys, we can too, so I'm not gender bashing here - but was also get bitter/angry over other things) feel if they don't have the "dream life". Like really? Biatch - go out and get it for yourself. Or go become a sugar baby if you're that dumb/lazy you can't do it yourself.  There was definitely more to it than any fear of hers about wanting to own something "together"...because you gave her plenty of optoins on different fronts at different times. But again my friend, it's all a lesson learned and your primary goal for the next year or two is to work on yourself and your self-esteem because what you've described to me shouldn't have lasted 1 year, let alone 8. MY GOD. But, guess what, that's life and you can get better. 

Yeah - that sort of oversharing is a bait. It's mean to try and hook you so you feel down and they feel better about themselves and it's a slow, long attempt at making you feel like you couldn't find someone else. Now...a little sharing on that front is actually a good thing. But a little. Because if she's totally into you, she wouldn't even pick up on it from other guys or if she did she would shoot it down quick and forget about it that quickly. And what you discovered with the password, while not right, proved that she wasn't ready and she wasn't relationship material. Now, no offense, snooping proves you weren't either lol. But from your perspective, yeah - she was a hot mess, somewhat entitled, and expected life to just be given to her on her lap. And you don't "get over" those things. They add to the stew of how you react, the choices you make, the feelings you have, etc. And the messaging the slime ball guy - yeah - that alone would be grounds to leave. Because you clearly explained what you felt and you clearly explained what this guy was like. If her only concern (let alone it should have NOT been a concern, or should have been like concern #10 on the list) - was not offending him - that means she doesn't value you. I mean, jfc, if someone I was dating did that to me, they'd be out the front door so quick the FLash would have seemed like a snail. And the comments about your family or the "slightly different wording" scenarios (I can understand what you mean)...yeah - that's all avoidant behavior. Another red flag that leads to automatic dumping. And the gym guy comment - that's just flat out disrespectful. Move on! Those stories aren't childish. Because look, sure, if you were healthier and more secure a single thing like that you just ignore or brush off. But what matters is what they show about HER. She had no boundaries. She was ready to run out the door at any second. She was immature and selfish and just expected to have things in life. 

 

And that story about your dad - that's the s*** you need to unpack with a licensed therapist. Because that's emotional terrorism or murder to a kid. That's the s*** parents do when they're emotionally stunted, immature and that leads to their children having problems as adults. That's why we still have racism, sexism, and all types of problems in the world. And boom - that story about your ex - that explains so much. She doesn't trust men, she sees them as something to "milk" for what they're worth...and funny yet, she stayed with you so long when other women like that jump from relationship to relationship trying to "milk" bigger and bigger targets. And while it's great to hope she will forgive you, she wasn't a saint and yes, you need to work on a lot - but you'll never know if she does. So don't concentrate on that. Concentrate on if the 10 yr old boy inside of you that's got big eyes on the future of his life would forgive you. 

 

And as I tell everyone - embrace the darkness. The darkness (depression, sadness, loneliness, crying, screaming, anger, back to depression) - is not your enemy. you can't live there forever. And you can't come out still angry, bitter, etc. But if you accept it, if you open your heart, soul, mind to it and open up to at least ONE other person you can trust who really knows you.....the darkness can and will teach you things and help you become a better person. Hang in there. DM whenever you need to!