Needing some strength/clarity

[Husbandssecret]

@spiritedaway2003 great post! 
 

“You have to ask yourself honestly here:  Do you still love him? Or are you just afraid of losing him, or afraid of letting go of a relationship that you know is not fully healthy for you?”

If I’m being honest my fear is of losing him. He’s become a huge part of my life and I don’t feel ready to close that chapter. But I know in my heart this isn’t healthy for me. It hasn’t been healthy for me but I always find a way to put him and our relationship first, despite him not doing the same.

I’ve allowed soooo many boundaries to be crossed that now I feel like we need a huge blow up or coming to Jesus moment in order to rationalize being done. On top of it, in his perspective we have been progressing and we are doing “well”.  But I know I’m unhappy with the uncertainty that this type of relationship brings.

When will the divorce go through? Will she fight him on it? When will his kids be ready to meet me? My future of my relationship feels like it’s at the hands of everyone else but me. I feel like my options are to either end things or sit on the sidelines and let everyone else make the call of when we get to live the life we want to live.

Surprisingly this role is just as lonely as being the OW. I know I can easily take control of the situation by ending things. But does that mean I lose the love we have forever? That’s the part that keeps me hooked in-not being ready to be done for good. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[HadMeOverABarrel]

48 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

My counselor thinks he’s actually love avoidant and that he needs multiple lovers because he can’t show his full self to one person. Therefore he gets each of his needs met through each relationship he has. 

This is an excellent theory!

Also I think your confusion has everything to do with intermittent reinforcement. Sorry to simplify but this is a study I read this morning so I'm going to use it as an analogy.

Rats were conditioned to press a lever for a pellet of food. The study showed the group of rats which received a pellet every time they pressed the lever resulted in them pressing the lever much less often than the group of rats which didn't know when pressing the lever resulted in a pellet (i.e. reward). Also scientists showed intermittent reinforcement actually alters the brain enlarging the part that responds to stress, showing that the person remains in a state of increased vigilance after ongoing intermittent reinforcement. It takes time for the brain to heal.

How does this apply to your situation? You are in a state of hyper-vigilence seeking cues from MM. Will he? Won't he? What does this and that mean? When he responds in a way that's favorable to you, you get a hit of dopamine (brain registers as reward). You got a pellet because he gave you a favorable response. But there are plenty of times when your 'performance' does not generate a favorable response. This is what confuses you and makes you 'work harder.'

Even if you're not changing your behavior towards him, your brain is in overdrive (hyper-vigilance) analyzing his cues (like the rats pressing the lever not knowing when they will get the reward). It's like your brain is trying to crack the code of how to get the reward flowimg consistently...BUT IT NEVER WILL...because you can't change him. Only he can, and that would require him understanding and admitting he has an issue in the first place. From what you've written he's nowhere near that point.

You pulling back will break your exposure to the intermittent reinforcement and allow your brain to heal. Then you'll be able to see the situation clearly for yourself. Trust that if he values you the way he should, that he will seek you and put forth the effort required to have you. If he doesn't, take comfort in knowing you were signing up for a life of feeling the way you do now, but with no end. The longer you are exposed to intermittent reinforcement the greater the trauma. Please discuss with your therapist.

Your MM sounds a lot like my xMM, who is incapable of seeing how his behavior affects others and then plays the victim card when people he's harmed try to hold him accountable. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by HadMeOverABarrel
Typos

[Beca L]

23 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

But does that mean I lose the love we have forever?

I totally understand that you have these feelings and I know because I had the same feelings for 2 years with xmm and that was what kept me hanging on for him to leave her again for good ( as he kept promising me he was thinking of doing ). But I soon realised that it was all about him and his timeline and he was quite happy where he was, living with his wife and having me on the side. 

Unfortunately you are probably not the top of his list atm although I know that will be hard to hear. It probably goes: Himself, his kids, BS and then you. But I could be wrong. 

I know you are not ready to close this chapter of your life and you still love him deeply I know how that feels. You don't necessarily have to end things but take a step back and accept that during this transition stage he is going to be seeing BS or you can ask him not to see her but he would probably do want he wants regardless. 

I think go with your gut and if it doesn't feel right it probably isn't. 

 

[Beca L]

6 minutes ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

You pulling back will break your exposure to the intermittent reinforcement and allow your brain to heal. Then you'll be able to see the situation clearly for yourself. Trust that if he value you the way he should, that he will seek you and put forth the effort required to have you. If he doesn't, take comfort in knowing you were signing up for a life of feeling the way you do now, but with no end. The longer you are exposed to intermittent reinforcement the greater the trauma. Please discuss with your therapist. Your MM sounds a lot like my xMM, who is incapable of seeing how his behavior affects others and then plays the victim card when people he's harmed try to hold him accountable. 

Great advice and love the analogy! 

[Allupinnit]

He sounds abusive.  Lying, cheating, gaslighting and trying to recreate your reality and discredit those around you who are trying to show you the truth about him.

Those two aren't going to be done with each other for quite a long time, if ever.  They say careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, Husbandssecret said:

But I can’t shake this feeling that I’m going to give up us for good by putting myself first. And maybe that’s the part that should tell me this absolutely isn’t working. The fact that I feel like I have to choose between myself and our relationship. 

This is very wise.

If you don’t put yourself first, who will?

How much resentment will built over the years as you have to give more and more, put your needs aside for this man, his children, his ex-wife... You shouldn’t have to feel that you lose yourself to be in a relationship. You are worthy, you are deserving, and this isn’t love...

You can’t plant a flower in soil that has been contaminated and expect something healthy and beautiful to grow.

Edited May 25, 2020 by BaileyB

[MsJayne]

Maybe I missed something, but he sounds like a shifty piece of work.  Telling you that you're negative when you're seeing the counselor is an attempt at controlling your perception of everything, God forbid that you listen to someone who has your well-being at heart. I think he's still stringing you along, I'd even bet money that his wife has no idea they're supposedly divorcing. 

[pepperbird]

I keep thinking that if he really cared, he's be happy you were getting some counselling if it helped you to feel better and get some sense of direction.
What's he so afraid of?

[simpycurious]

7 hours ago, MsJayne said:

Maybe I missed something, but he sounds like a shifty piece of work.  Telling you that you're negative when you're seeing the counselor is an attempt at controlling your perception of everything, God forbid that you listen to someone who has your well-being at heart. I think he's still stringing you along, I'd even bet money that his wife has no idea they're supposedly divorcing. 

This^^^^^..........manipulative, sketchy, he's a TOOL

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

What's he so afraid of?

That’s she may decide the trust issues are too much to be overcome, that he (with all his baggage) is not actually the man of her dreams, and gather the strength to tell him this is not what she wants for her life...

I imagine it’s the same kind of “threat” as a wife who loses a lot of weight, suddenly she has more confidence, more options, and the power dynamic has shifted just a little bit... That can be pretty threatening to the other spouse, who depends on a certain dynamic to feel secure in the relationship.

Edited May 26, 2020 by BaileyB

[LynneVicious]

On 5/24/2020 at 2:21 PM, HadMeOverABarrel said:

Best way for you to get clarityis to take a big step back. Possibly/probably he has another OW (or BS). The fact he's not being transparent does not bode well for starting anew. Imagine if this was a guy you just started dating a couple months ago. Would you put up with this? Also, for the mind f part, consider agendas when deciding what to believe. Your friends (esp if more than one) most likely have your best interest at heart, know you well, and want to envisage your happiness. Your therapist is there to support you, you are her client, she is trained and experienced in recognizing people's motives, etc. What would she gain by misleading you? Now your AP is likely to have the most selfish agenda of all.  You are his soft place to land if BS or OOW relationships don't pan out. You've proven to him time and again that you'll be on standby. That puts you in low status position to him because he believes no matter what he does you'll always be waiting for him. That doesn't motivate him to treat you well or consider your feelings/needs. It's tough when your emotions are wrapped into it, which is why you should do the tough thing and step away. Tell him when the ink has dried on the divorce decree and he's ready to explore a long-term, committed relationship with you, and only you, to see if you're still available. 💜

I think this is the most sound advice available. Nailed it. Read it again and again. 

[Prudence V]

This is what worries me about the future of this R: 

 

On 5/25/2020 at 9:24 PM, Husbandssecret said:

I always find a way to put him and our relationship first, despite him not doing the same.

It’s never been a R of equals. That’s not because it’s an A - an A can certainly be a R of equals if that’s what’s negotiated and agreed. But this guy? It’s all about him, and he likes it that way. That’s why he doesn’t like the counselling - because that’s about you, not about him. 
 

When you picture the future of the R, I’m guessing you’re seeing it as, “once all this is done, we’ll have a nice normal R, as equals, where my stuff is as important as his.” What he pictures? The R, like it is now, but without all the pain of the D hanging over him. He isn’t wanting to share the limelight. If anything, he’s going to miss being in the limelight on two stages. 
 

I really would like to see this work out well for you - but more and more, I’m thinking that’s unlikely to be with him. Unless the R as it currently is is meeting all your needs - and from what you’ve written, it’s not - you’re likely to be frustrated and ultimately disappointed, because this is likely to be as good as it gets. 
 

 

 

[Husbandssecret]

Well tonight was the night, I called it quits-at lease until the very least he is actually divorced.

He tried everything in the book and some of it left my mouth hanging open and some of it made me feel bad for him.

He mostly told me all about how I have such a skewed perspective and I’m simply choosing not to be happy. That he’s making the progress with the D like I needed him and I’m choosing to see him in the worst possible light. Oh and my counselor is contributing to this skewed perspective.

I knew I had to be done when I asked him if he’d had dinner with BS since the separation and he said he had twice for the kids and the transition of things.

For some reason this made it all click. He’s never going to stop using his kids as an excuse. I told him how screwed up it was that I had to ask him for this information and he didn’t just come out and tell me. He basically dumbed it down to make it seem like the dinner was with the kids and it was a quick slice of pizza. I know there’s more to the story or he wouldn’t have so nicely left out the fact that he had been having dinners with her.

Anyways, this is all beside the point. It became clear to me that I can’t trust him, at least for sure during this phase as he works out his D. He needs to be free to deal with this however he needs to and I deserve to not have to be drug along through this process.

I left with the last words being that we would reconvene one day when the ink has dried. And I got the vibe that if I walked out the door I was drawing a line in the sand. I don’t think he’ll be coming after me.

He then called me as I got to my place and he said angrily that me walking out today proved to him that I’m not a through thick and thin kind of person. And that he doesn’t want someone who isn’t “through thick and thin”, so therefore he is closing the door on us for good. I think it was his attempt to grab the power one more time.

I feel sad that we had to get to this point. I feel a sense of relief. But I also feel heartbroken, that I saw the worst in him tonight because he was hurt and desperate. I never want to be the person behind that feeling. The worst part of this all is that I still love him. I am going to have to go NC if I expect this to work.. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[Husbandssecret]

On 5/27/2020 at 2:16 PM, Prudence V said:

This is what worries me about the future of this R: 

 

It’s never been a R of equals. That’s not because it’s an A - an A can certainly be a R of equals if that’s what’s negotiated and agreed. But this guy? It’s all about him, and he likes it that way. That’s why he doesn’t like the counselling - because that’s about you, not about him. 
 

When you picture the future of the R, I’m guessing you’re seeing it as, “once all this is done, we’ll have a nice normal R, as equals, where my stuff is as important as his.” What he pictures? The R, like it is now, but without all the pain of the D hanging over him. He isn’t wanting to share the limelight. If anything, he’s going to miss being in the limelight on two stages. 
 

I really would like to see this work out well for you - but more and more, I’m thinking that’s unlikely to be with him. Unless the R as it currently is is meeting all your needs - and from what you’ve written, it’s not - you’re likely to be frustrated and ultimately disappointed, because this is likely to be as good as it gets. 
 

 

 

This is exactly right. I remember the first time I realized that the relationship was all about him. I have been trying to unsee that ever since.

I was a crutch, an escape from the bad days, the one who fixed things. It didn’t matter if I had things needing fixing, it was always my job to put those feelings aside and help him get through his really hard day.

He never made it clear that this was the expectation, he never flat out said it. But before I knew it I would find myself hiding tough family things or stressors at work from him in fear of causing him stress and then he would come over and I would shower him with love. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[Spainglish]

You deserve better.  He will hurt you in the same way one day.

I once dated a man who was "separated".  He told me he and his wife had already agreed to all the details of their divorce and they were just waiting until their youngest child graduated from high school to make it official.  He gave me details all the time of their separation agreement, described where we would get married, how he envisioned my wedding dress, and talked about our future all the time. 

He went through with his divorce and we continued to see each other.  Then, one day, out of the blue something beckoned me to search his name on Google.  I had never done it before, but I felt like I had to.  The first thing that came up on the results was his engagement announcement to another woman.  He has a very unique name so I knew it couldn't be someone else.  I called him and asked him if he was getting married.  He said, "Yes, I'm sorry" and then proceeded to tell me how much he loved me, yada, yada, yada. 

4 years I waited for this man.  4 years I lost the opportunity to find someone who was actually right for me. It took another 4 years for my heart to literally stop aching.  I never felt that kind of pain before and I really wasn't sure it would ever stop. So, in total, I wasted 8 years of my "prime" life and all he could say was "I'm sorry".   Is that going to be enough for you in the end when he absolutely shatters your heart?   Just something  to ponder.    You deserve better.

[simpycurious]

The mere name the OP uses is telling "Husbandssecret"............why be SOMEONE'S secret.  This will not end well OP. 

[Husbandssecret]

17 hours ago, Spainglish said:

You deserve better.  He will hurt you in the same way one day.

I once dated a man who was "separated".  He told me he and his wife had already agreed to all the details of their divorce and they were just waiting until their youngest child graduated from high school to make it official.  He gave me details all the time of their separation agreement, described where we would get married, how he envisioned my wedding dress, and talked about our future all the time. 

He went through with his divorce and we continued to see each other.  Then, one day, out of the blue something beckoned me to search his name on Google.  I had never done it before, but I felt like I had to.  The first thing that came up on the results was his engagement announcement to another woman.  He has a very unique name so I knew it couldn't be someone else.  I called him and asked him if he was getting married.  He said, "Yes, I'm sorry" and then proceeded to tell me how much he loved me, yada, yada, yada. 

4 years I waited for this man.  4 years I lost the opportunity to find someone who was actually right for me. It took another 4 years for my heart to literally stop aching.  I never felt that kind of pain before and I really wasn't sure it would ever stop. So, in total, I wasted 8 years of my "prime" life and all he could say was "I'm sorry".   Is that going to be enough for you in the end when he absolutely shatters your heart?   Just something  to ponder.    You deserve better.

Wow, I’m so so sorry for the pain you went through. 8 years is a long time! 4.5 years is way too long and if I don’t stand my ground I’ll end up at 5 years here soon.  I definitely need to just move on. The longer I’m in, the harder it is to leave.

He showed me tonight the emails they have been sending back and forth working out the financials and they look like they have basically everything ready to complete the decree. It was so tempting for me to say to myself “he’s doing exactly what he said he’d do”. But then I asked when he would be ready to file and he thought long and hard, and said it would be before July 15th. He promised it would be.

Everything he said tonight clicked for me. It was like I was outside of my body watching my best friend go through a breakup and I saw through all the attempts. I had been trying hard to train his dog how to do a yoga pose and had been working on it and he said “let’s show momma what we have learned” and sure enough he got him to do it! And it was soooo cute but I knew he was tugging on my heart strings. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[Spainglish]

I also saw emails between him and his wife.   It turns out he created her email.  He created everything he could to keep the deception going. 
Funny thing is, I actually became quite friendly with his ex wife after the fact and learned way more than I really wanted to.   

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Stay strong and believe you are doing the right thing for yourself. What you just did was very brave. Hang in there, keep posting here, stay in therapy, do extra things to be gentle and kind to yourself as you get through this. 

[Lylalou]

@Husbandssecret everything you have written could be me writing, we are only there to enable them to be happy, our happiness doesn’t matter. Please carry on an walking away, he will contact you as he won’t want to lose you, and maybe for a few days he will convince you it will be ok, but he won’t change, he’ll carry on doing things with his BS “for the children”, he can’t quite go yet because of the children, it’s all delay tactics, and I wasted 7 years waiting, and after yet another lie I walked, I didn’t say goodbye this time I just never replied to a message. I never heard from him for 8 months, then again at 9 months, wonder why it took 8 months, but I never replied, I can’t go back to those awful feelings.
i think some days I still love him but why, it’s wasted on someone who’s happy to waste years of my life for his own selfishness. Please don’t waste anymore time on some who isn’t willing to put you first.

[elaine567]

7 hours ago, Spainglish said:

He went through with his divorce and we continued to see each other.  Then, one day, out of the blue something beckoned me to search his name on Google.  I had never done it before, but I felt like I had to.  The first thing that came up on the results was his engagement announcement to another woman.  He has a very unique name so I knew it couldn't be someone else.  I called him and asked him if he was getting married.  He said, "Yes, I'm sorry" and then proceeded to tell me how much he loved me, yada, yada, yada. 

That is not uncommon, he divorces, he then looks for a wife replacement, with the intention of keeping the OW still on the side. 
A MM when asked why he did this, why didn't he make his OW his wife? He said his new wife would never accept him having another woman, but his OW was used to that dynamic.
He thus had a plan to continue with an oblivious new wife and keep the established OW in tow.  
Some men do not see a woman who agrees to be an OW as wife material,  and that is the other problem...

Interesting about the fake emails.
I always thought that would be something a devious person would do.
Same with texts, easy to send texts to oneself from some other phone and pretend they are from the wife.
Cheaters are smart, some OW get so caught up in love, that they can forget that

[BaileyB]

You did the right thing. His response proves that. 

You also want a man who will stick with you through thick and thin. He proved that he is not that man. 

I’m sorry, I’m sure it hurts. And it will get worse before it gets better. But, you should be proud of yourself. You stood firm and you did what was best - for you. If he really wants to be together, there is not much he has to do... file for divorce, and establish a healthy boundary with his ex-wife. What you heard last night was that he is having a difficult time doing both. So, the only thing left to do was to step back, well done. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by BaileyB

[Husbandssecret]

It’s very hard to stand by this decision, even though I know it’s right.

I’m feeling very vulnerable right now. I’m also feeling bad for him because I don’t want him to feel abandoned or hurt by me. Why do I even think of that? I should be sad because of all the times he hurt me.

I think the only thing that can get me to the other side of this is by constantly replaying/reminding myself of the times he let me down. The times he promised to never vacation with BS again, only to go on a beautiful trip with her a month later “for the kids”. I need to accept my position on his rankings. Unfortunately I am the bottom of the list.

He should have his kids first always. And whether BS falls above me because she is the mother of his kids and he needs to be sure she is happy so he doesn’t create conflict vs he still loves her, I’m not sure I will ever know. But regardless I don’t deserve that place. Especially after all the love that I have given.

I have opened up my life for him. Years of going to holidays alone, friends and families weddings alone. One after the other of my friends moving their lives forward and feeling like I’m standing still. All for what? Life is hard enough; love shouldn’t be this hard.

It’s okay for him to put himself first and his family first. But when I need to put myself first and step back because I feel like I’m losing myself in all this, I’m the bad person. I’ve somehow failed him. After I stood by his side, so understanding, offering all of my love to him.

Yesterday he said he’s never lied to me, and I believe that. He’s never “lied” to me because he just purposely leaves things out and doesn’t tell me everything. That way he feels like he can confidently say he’s never lied. Like him still having dinners with her “for the kids”. Had I not asked, I would have never known.

I tell him all the time when I grab dinner with my sister, or grab dinner with friends. Not because he needs to know my whereabouts constantly but because those kinds of things are normal to share. “How was your night?” “Oh it was good, I had dinner with some friends etc”. Somehow in the last month in our conversations about the day, it didn’t come up that they were having family dinners. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[BaileyB]

37 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

I’m also feeling bad for him because I don’t want him to feel abandoned or hurt by me.

It’s okay for him to put himself first and his family first. But when I need to put myself first and step back because I feel like I’m losing myself in all this, I’m the bad person. I’ve somehow failed him.

Like him still having dinners with her “for the kids.” Somehow in the last month in our conversations about the day, it didn’t come up that they were having family dinners. 

Don’t worry about him, he is a big boy and he can take care of himself. He usually finds a way to take care of his needs. 

Don’t allow yourself to feel badly about doing what is right for you. Don’t allow him to shift the blame and make you feel badly for ending this affair. It was entirely his decision NOT to file for divorce, NOT to establish healthy boundaries with his ex-wife, and NOT to be transparent that has lead to this moment...

How confusing must it be for those kids to have their father move out but continue to come for dinner... talk about mixed messages. He is doing to his children what he has done to you. Either, he has not moved out or he is trying to keep one foot in the door... It seems to fit the profile of a conflict avoidant man, selfishly pursuing his own best interest and trying to hedge his bets to ensure he comes up with the best possible outcome. It’s sad really, for all involved. 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by BaileyB

[elaine567]

12 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

But regardless I don’t deserve that place. Especially after all the love that I have given. I have opened up my life for him. Years of going to holidays alone, friends and families weddings alone. One after the other of my friends moving their lives forward and feeling like I’m standing still. All for what?

Exactly. All for what?
You spent too much time getting caught up in your love for him.
You projected how YOU felt onto HIM.
Your love consisted of how much you could do and did for him, so he would see how much you loved him and he would then choose you. 
His love consisted of how much he could take and get from you.
You sacrificed and he said, Thanks very much, very kind of you...
You spent years trying to make him into the man you wanted and hoped for him to be.
He just carried on with his life as normal.

You can't just meet someone and hope they will change into the man you really want.
It doesn't work like that.