Covid-19 and UK politics

[Philosopher]

Since there is a thread on Trump's response to Covid-19, I thought I would set one to discuss UK politics in relation to Covid-19. Over the weekend quite a big political scandal in the UK relating to Covid-19 has been occurring.

On the 23rd March, the Prime Minister Boris Johnson ordered a lockdown, backed by a government law. As part of the lockdown you were only permitted to leave home for certain reasons, with the main ones being to buy food, for limited exercise, to go to work if you can't work from home, medical appointments and to escape domestic violence. If you left home for other reasons you could get fined. These rules were eased in the middle of May to allow outdoor recreation. Furthermore if you or anyone you lived with had symptoms of Covid-19 you are supposed to stay at home completely. Unlike the lockdown, however this is not enforced.

Sometime in last four days of March, the Prime Minister's chief advisor, Dominic Cummings, left his home in London with his family to stay in a house right next to his parent's house in Durham, about 260 miles north of London. His wife had symptoms of Covid-19. The reason he gave for this was in case both he and his wife got Covid-19 so badly that his parents would have to look after his young kid. Furthermore, there is considerable evidence from two newspapers that he and his family visited a ruined castle about 30 miles from where he was staying in Durham in the middle of April. 

This news story broke on Friday evening. Since then there has been increasing pressure for Mr. Cummings to resign, with many saying he broke the law or at the very least did not act in accordance with the spirit of the law. He however has not resigned and said to reporters "who cares" when asked about the situation. The police have been involved, apparently only to discuss security matters. On Sunday, Boris Johnson gave a press conference, supposedly about reopening junior schools. In the press conference not only did he refuse to fire Mr Cummings, he completely defended his actions and then brushed over any questions regarding the situation. There is a widespread view in the UK that Boris Johnson is Mr Cummings puppet. 

I have a feeling this scandal will grow and grow. 

[QuietRiot]

I don't see what he did wrong. In fact, it sounded like he made an attempt to further isolate himself. I personally think it was good thinking on his part as he's not exposing himself to a densely populated area.

[elaine567]

In that press conference, we saw Boris Johnson defend the indefensible, it was shocking.
He even used the word integrity...
Boris Johnson NEEDS this guy, that is the problem. 

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, QuietRiot said:

I personally think it was good thinking on his part as he's not exposing himself to a densely populated area.

He and is wife already had the virus, and they took it to his elderly parents and other family members in Durham, an area that at the time had very few cases.
I doubt he managed to travel 270 miles with a 4 year old without a toilet service station break, so he no doubt put others at risk too...
He broke the rules, the rules that he at the head of Govt formulated for  everyone else to follow at great personal sacrifice to themselves.
Obviously rules do not apply to the rulers...

[Libby1]

Did you see the "can you imagine what it's like to work with these truthtwisters" Civil Service tweet that was released almost straight after his speech?  It was deleted after about 10 minutes, but not before being circulated by major influencers (leading me to think the person behind the tweet was probably somebody a bit higher up than just some hot headed junior).  Funny how quickly the Govt announced they would be investigating that tweet - yet there's no proper, impartial investigation into Dominic Cummings for an alleged breach of guidelines he helped create.  Just a chat with Boris, who decides he's happy that his friend did nothing wrong and was just being a good dad.     I mean seriously.  Maybe there are reasons underlying that journey that, if shared, would entirely exonerate him...I don't know.  But if there are, they should emerge as part of a proper investigation and not in this "he's a good dad and as far as I'm concerned he did nothing wrong - so that's the end of that,, leave my friend alone, he's going nowhwere..." attitude Boris seems to have.

The UK govt is this little in crowd who expects everybody else to sit by grinning fondly as they slap eachother on the back, treat governing a country like the latest jape dreamed up by the the Bullingdon Club and seeing no need to subject themselves to the sort of regulations and formalities others are expected to abide by.  And unfortunately some people in the UK do in fact react in that prescribed way like dogs sniffing around the masters' table for crumbs.  But I think there will be rather less of them today than there were a week ago.

[elaine567]

Cummings has a big job to do, he is the man who was going to do a root out of the civil service and oversee Brexit...
Boris can't do that on his own, or with the low quality "yes" men he has surrounded himself with.
The Cummings machine cleared out the dissenters and replaced them with novices, career politicians and "middle managers" , so that there are no big players, no heavy weights to get any real work done.
 

[Philosopher]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

In that press conference, we saw Boris Johnson defend the indefensible, it was shocking.
He even used the word integrity...
Boris Johnson NEEDS this guy, that is the problem. 

This is why I think this scandal could be end of both Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings political careers. They are just so intertwined, that if one falls, the other one will likely fall too. 

[Libby1]

Dominic Cummings is apparently making a public statement later on today. I would think he'll start it off by acknowledging the efforts and sacrifices made by the British people during lockdown, and the public anger focused on his own circumstances in late March.   Then....well, I guess he'll either resign or he'll offer to co-operate with an independent investigation into his travel decision. 

He's had a lot of press harassment (and I've got to say, despite my dislike for Dominic Cummings, that I think it's rich that a gaggle of media types stand shoulder to shoulder , most of them without masks on, while berating somebody else for social distancing failures).  I should think the main purpose of the statement is to try to put an end to that harassment, so I can't imagine there will be any reiteration of the "I did nothing wrong" line...since that would only bring more angry people into his street to shout at him.

[Emilie Jolie]

Since the Brexit referendum, UK politics have descended into a spiral of shamefulness. This current situation is no different because it's the same guy at the helm. Cummings is a manipulator in chief. He won't get sacked, BJ won't get sacked, we are 7 months away from a No Deal Brexit on top of the pandemic so a political upheaval is not on the cards, in my opinion; not the right timing.

I'm no right winger but hope a sensible Tory emerges from this mess and steers it back to some semblance of normality. With a 80-seat majority in Parliament, the damages Cummings and Co can do in 4 years don't bear thinking about.

[schlumpy]

I get it completely! I absolutely hate electing people to office that think they are too important to be subjected to the same laws that apply to the masses. It's as if there is an invisible boundary that once crossed gives the public official a hall pass that seems irrevocable. It's a self sustaining system. The crime or indiscretion ends up as a talking point for the opposing political parties, instead of an indictment which the average citizen would have to contend with.

There is an unwritten agreement, probably conjured up during some Satanic ritual, that public officials do not go after each other legally. If my governor got caught screwing sheep on the State house lawn, I doubt he would lose his office. That's how bad the corruption is.

As morally repugnant as it must seem to the idealistic purity required by the party faithful, I have over the years studied outcomes instead. You ask a simple question: at the end of the term am I better off or better positioned because of the person I voted for? That answer dictates my voting pattern and voting is all the power I have. 

 

 

 

 

[Philosopher]

So Mr. Cummings is currently giving a press conference. No resignation or apology, just a long list of excuses justifying his actions. Whether or not he broke the rules, he certainly pushed them right to the limit. The questions from journalists are pretty hostile.

[Ellener]

The rich and powerful almost always 'bend rules' to their own benefit don't they? And their supporters can see no wrong in them, their detractors no right!

It's stupid to think that anything can be done without notice or record in the modern era though, no one has any privacy let alone public figures who are supposed to be setting an example for others in times of difficulty...

But Britain's a free country, lockdown laws need to be imposed and enforced carefully.

This is all about negotiating the balance, or should be, let's see how impartial and objective the UK media is ( I'll be reading the BBC! in whom I have every faith for now... )

 

 

 

[elaine567]

I think he did pretty well at the beginning and almost had me with his rehearsed written script but as soon as he got to the questions, he lost me.
That stammering and that eh ..eh... eh.. broken speech is what politicians do when they get asked difficult questions and they have to lie or make up something to avoid the question.
He was pretty controlled and was playing the nice guy, but at a point or two I could see behind the mask.
He showed no contrition whatsoever and that may be his ultimate downfall.
No-one wanted him to be in a sobbing apologetic heap but some genuine acknowledgement of a level of wrong doing may have helped quell pubic anger over this.
BUT I guess he is going nowhere anytime soon... unless some other more damning evidence shows up

[Libby1]

8 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I think he did pretty well at the beginning and almost had me with his rehearsed written script but as soon as he got to the questions, he lost me.
That stammering and that eh ..eh... eh.. broken speech is what politicians do when they get asked difficult questions and they have to lie or make up something to avoid the question.
He was pretty controlled and was playing the nice guy, but at a point or two I could see behind the mask.
He showed no contrition whatsoever and that may be his ultimate downfall.
No-one wanted him to be in a sobbing apologetic heap but some genuine acknowledgement of a level of wrong doing may have helped quell pubic anger over this.
BUT I guess he is going nowhere anytime soon... unless some other more damning evidence shows up

He's evidently strongly disliked, with a lot of enemies in the media, which is no doubt why this whole business came to light.  Reports of him tend to be that he's a control freak and a bully, and he didn't do himself any favours by keeping the media waiting so long before he turned up with a laconic "sorry I'm late".  No doubt if somebody asked why each reporter had to stand like a kid in front of the headmaster, while asking him questions, a perfectly valid sounding, covid related reason would be given...but I'd guess that was another power move.

I don't have a hard time believing most of his story, but the "drive to Barnard Castle to test my eyesight" was nonsensical.  Since he was on a farm, something like "I took a short drive along some of the farm tracks to check I felt okay to drive" would have seemed pretty rational...but taking a trip to a place 30 miles away on what was apparently his wife's birthday to check his eyesight?  That's the kind of claim that the press is just bound to pick up and make a running joke of.

My main issue with what he did would be a) that he drove that distance in an infected car and very likely had to make a stop during the trip - though he claims he didn't.  If it transpires that he stopped at a petrol station, and if a member of staff there subsequently contracted covid-19 then that would obviously be the end of his career in the govt.  I think though that if something like that had happened it would be out by now.  The other issue would be with them taking their illness to another part of the country and placing a burden on health services (as well as potentially infecting health service workers...bearing in mind that was still early on in the life of this pandemic) there.

I personally thought Boris's speech on Sunday was far more destructive in its arrogance.  With Dominic Cummings speech today, I feel like...yeah, this is an arrogant person and I can see glimpses of the control freak people talk about, but I didn't feel the absolute gut based rage I felt yesterday after Boris's statement.  Boris's statement just seemed like a stab in the heart to all the people who have made sacrifices and been unable to be by the side of loved ones who died.  With Cummings it was more like...well, some of what he's saying sounds like nonsense but a lot of it reminds me of what it's like to get ill and to panic that you won't be able to look after people who are relying on you.  When people say "yeah, but that's happening to people all around the country" my thought is that yes it is...and it makes one sympathetic to the nightmare they're going through. 

I can't honestly feel angry with Cummings himself for much of this.  Maybe I should be, but I just don't.  My anger is more with the Cabinet Ministers who are lining up to dictate that he did what any good father would do.  That's the bit that seems like a slap in the face to a lot of people who made sacrifices for the sake of the lockdown and are now being made to feel less loving for doing so - by the very people who imposed the lockdown.

[Philosopher]

 

30 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

I can't honestly feel angry with Cummings himself for much of this.  Maybe I should be, but I just don't.  My anger is more with the Cabinet Ministers who are lining up to dictate that he did what any good father would do.  That's the bit that seems like a slap in the face to a lot of people who made sacrifices for the sake of the lockdown and are now being made to feel less loving for doing so - by the very people who imposed the lockdown.

I think Cummings has probably just done enough to save his career, however there are still some questionable elements to his story, notably his drive to Barnard Castle. I suspect technically he did not break the rules, but I think he certainly pushed them to the limit. It seemed pretty obvious he did not know how to handle a press conference.

The biggest issue I have with the UK government is the arrogance they are showing. Given the UK has the highest death toll in Europe it is very probable the UK government screwed up at some point during the crisis. However rather than admitting to any mistakes, if a newspaper is particularly critical of how the government have handled it, the next day there will be a fierce rebuttal on some government website. This seems to be a leaf out of Trump’s playbook. This does not help develop trust between the government and people.  

In France, President Macron had the humility to admit the French government made mistakes. I just can’t see that happening here.

[elaine567]

Cummings is a big farmer's son and clever.
He will have grown up to be resilient and to be a law unto himself and will not accept authority.
He did what he wanted to do and as far as he is concerned he did nothing wrong so why would he apologise or resign.
Had he been alone with no wife or child I guess he would have driven to Durham anyway if he had wanted to.
Boris knows better than to take him on, Boris is all flannel and show, Cummings is the real deal..
 

[Libby1]

12 hours ago, Philosopher said:

The biggest issue I have with the UK government is the arrogance they are showing. Given the UK has the highest death toll in Europe it is very probable the UK government screwed up at some point during the crisis. However rather than admitting to any mistakes, if a newspaper is particularly critical of how the government have handled it, the next day there will be a fierce rebuttal on some government website. This seems to be a leaf out of Trump’s playbook. This does not help develop trust between the government and people.  

 

Yep. The Government ought to have insisted that Cummings be sacked. It's perfectly possible to have some understanding of why he did what he did and still maintain that he has to be dismissed. Instead, key Government figures went so far as to praise his actions...which was a thoroughly arrogant and obnoxious thing to do in light of the sacrifices others have made. 

I know a lot of people are of the view that Boris & co need to stay in power to get Brexit done, but surely at the end of the day the skills required to manage that transition lie with the Civil Service rather than with the Govt of the day.  Whatever benefits there are to having a Government who has had time to form relationships with and derive knowledge from the Civil Service departments, might they be outweighed by the very evident animosity that exists between the current UK Government and the Civil Service?  I know there's bound to always be some degree of conflict and tension between a Govt and the Civil Service, but it seems to have got out of control with the current Govt, resulting in extreme toxicity.

I guess people are just going to stick with a "better the devil you know" philosophy for the time being, and a general election in the midst of a pandemic would only add further turmoil.  I find myself wondering how a Thatcher govt would have handled the current situation.  I do think she'd almost certainly have put the economy before people's lives, but on the other hand she was a scientist and a planner. I think she'd have started putting robust measures in place from January and would have been pretty authoritarian about it.  I know she was very hard, but she was an excellent leader.  The Conservative Party pretty much feeds off the memory of her - and though a big part of their arrogance comes from the wealthy Etonian/Oxbridge background many of them have, I think a fair bit of that arrogance also comes from being in the party that Thatcher led.  So they bring the arrogance to the table, but without the competence, conviction and leadership she brought.

[schlumpy]

On 5/25/2020 at 6:19 AM, Libby1 said:

The UK govt is this little in crowd who expects everybody else to sit by grinning fondly as they slap eachother on the back, treat governing a country like the latest jape dreamed up by the the Bullingdon Club and seeing no need to subject themselves to the sort of regulations and formalities others are expected to abide by.  And unfortunately some people in the UK do in fact react in that prescribed way like dogs sniffing around the masters' table for crumbs.  But I think there will be rather less of them today than there were a week ago.

It's much the same in the USA. Many times our Congress and House of Representatives will exempt themselves from the laws they are passing. A stock broker goes to jail for insider trading and elected officials (as happened recently) get a pass because they are exempt. No one cares too much because after all the stock broker is part of evil wall street.

I truly don't know what the answer is. Western governments have lifted civilization to new heights. As flawed as they are, they are the best we have. 

[Libby1]

On 5/26/2020 at 2:24 PM, schlumpy said:

It's much the same in the USA. Many times our Congress and House of Representatives will exempt themselves from the laws they are passing. A stock broker goes to jail for insider trading and elected officials (as happened recently) get a pass because they are exempt. No one cares too much because after all the stock broker is part of evil wall street.

I truly don't know what the answer is. Western governments have lifted civilization to new heights. As flawed as they are, they are the best we have. 

In the UK we seem to currently be on a downward slope.  We're now up to something like 40 Conservative MPs calling for Cummings' resignation, with other MPs with others stopping short of calling for his resignation but criticising him nonetheless.  The Minister for Scotland has resigned over the whole thing.  Press and members of the public seem to be regularly outside his home shouting for him to resign.  He's not giving a toss about any of it, and is staying put.  Apparently when he was at school he was unpleasant and unpopular, so he probably doesn't care very much - or at all -  that people are yelling from the rooftops for him to go.

[Prudence V]

It’s amusing the way Cummings has mobilised all his Russian bots on Twitter. He tried to plant the “information” that the reason his kid needed to go to Durham for babysitting was because the kid was autistic. Of course journalists were all over that like a rash, asking for evidence since that isn’t in the public domain - and guess what? Those tweets vanished. And so did those accounts. Especially after parents of genuine ASC kids started posting, challenging that narrative. 
 

And then there’s the whole farce of him editing his blog to make it look like he’d predicted coronavirus a year ago. 🤣 he clearly has no idea how the internet works. 
 

not so clever after all. 

[Libby1]

23 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

And then there’s the whole farce of him editing his blog to make it look like he’d predicted coronavirus a year ago. 🤣 he clearly has no idea how the internet works. 
 

not so clever after all. 

If you haven't seen them already, google images for "Dominic Cummings portrait session 2001".  He seems to be channeling Martin Amis , Christopher Hitchens. That lot.  You're British.  You know what I mean.  Pictures of him staring in an angst ridden manner at the camera, or moodily lighting a cigarette.  In one he was standing in a louche pose, breathing smoke all over himself - with his jacket half undone. He had hair back then.  I clicked on the image and discovered that these photos were taken to promote him as Campaign Director for Business for Sterling, and if I liked I could buy a print for £340.

It's a strange rabbit hole adventure, discovering more about the world of Dominic Cummings.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Libby1

[Philosopher]

37 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

In the UK we seem to currently be on a downward slope.  We're now up to something like 40 Conservative MPs calling for Cummings' resignation, with other MPs with others stopping short of calling for his resignation but criticising him nonetheless.  The Minister for Scotland has resigned over the whole thing.  Press and members of the public seem to be regularly outside his home shouting for him to resign.  He's not giving a toss about any of it, and is staying put.  Apparently when he was at school he was unpleasant and unpopular, so he probably doesn't care very much - or at all -  that people are yelling from the rooftops for him to go.

The news about this seems to be quietening down over the past couple of days and I think only a couple more Conservative MPs today have asked for his resignation. Therefore it seems like he has managed to hang on to his job.

I do wonder what the damage to the UK and Conservative party from all this will be. I just hope the public health message has not been too undermined.

[Libby1]

2 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

The news about this seems to be quietening down over the past couple of days and I think only a couple more Conservative MPs today have asked for his resignation. Therefore it seems like he has managed to hang on to his job.

I do wonder what the damage to the UK and Conservative party from all this will be. I just hope the public health message has not been too undermined.

Well, unless Boris is the recipient of his very own Night of Long Knives it'll be ages until the next election - and God knows what will happen between now and then. I'm guessing he'll have more chance of staying in if Trump gets re-elected.  How much difference that'll make I don't know, but I do feel that it would help him.  He's such flump.  I don't know why he couldn't just stick to being a joke politician, lumbering around on his bike, falling off flying foxes and making regular appearances on HIGNFY.

[Philosopher]

55 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

Well, unless Boris is the recipient of his very own Night of Long Knives it'll be ages until the next election - and God knows what will happen between now and then. I'm guessing he'll have more chance of staying in if Trump gets re-elected.  How much difference that'll make I don't know, but I do feel that it would help him.  He's such flump.  I don't know why he couldn't just stick to being a joke politician, lumbering around on his bike, falling off flying foxes and making regular appearances on HIGNFY.

I suspect Boris will remain in power until the next election. However the Cummings saga and the fallout from the UK likely having the highest death toll in Europe from this pandemic strike me that it will have a very similar impact on the Conservatives to Black Wednesday in 1992. Their popularity plummeted after Black Wednesday and they remained unelectable for over 15 years. So I do think the Conservatives will end being very unpopular after all this.

[elaine567]

I think the test track and trace actually saved him as now people's attention has been transferred to what that will mean for them.
Potential 14 day strict isolation even with no symptoms....OMG.
... and the localised lockdowns idea pricked their ears up too.
Some are railing against the Govt. and blaming Cummings, but some are just using him as an excuse to behave badly by breaking the lockdown...
I am not sure if there is enough vigour in an campaign to call for a resignation.
OK the opposition is baying for blood but they are easily dismissed as being the opposition and of course they want him gone...
40 Tory MPs are upset but they need at least 80 to get anyone in Govt. to sit up and notice.

Boris is going nowhere, but he isn't' really helping fight the virus IMO. 
Seems to me Boris comes on and emphasises the good news and gets everyone excited.
Then along comes the rest pf the team with the bad news and it is all just confusing... 
A bit like Dad comes home and suggests taking the kids to the a park for an ice-cream and then Mom has to remind the kids that they need to do their homework...