Compromises in long-term relationships

[Ruby Slippers]

5 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The problem with Ruby's messy kitchen and Lana's empty laundry hampers is that their partner's have made a conscious and deliberate decision to not do something that is so simple to do, yet they are willing to frustrate and upset their partner over it.
He is an intelligent guy he doesn't need to be continually told to tidy up messes.

This was my line of thinking before. But I tend to agree with those who say it's not a conscious slight. When I stayed with him at his house over Christmas, his son was talking to me about how his dad, a high-level mathematician, is remarkably intelligent in certain ways, while almost out of touch with some aspects of day-to-day life. I told him my first nickname for his dad, "the absent-minded mathematician." He laughed and nodded his head.

He leaves his house and his apartment 10 times messier than he leaves my kitchen. That tells me that even if his cleanliness doesn't meet my high standard, he is making an effort to be fairly clean around me, relative to his normal habits. 

By nature he's messy and absent-minded. He leaves doors unlocked, lights on, the other day left my oven on a low warming temperature for 2 days before I noticed. He said his absent-mindedness has never caused any serious problems. This is how he is and it won't change, so I can take it or leave it.

[clia]

12 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

He leaves his house and his apartment 10 times messier than he leaves my kitchen. That tells me that even if his cleanliness doesn't meet my high standard, he is making an effort to be fairly clean around me, relative to his normal habits. 

By nature he's messy and absent-minded. He leaves doors unlocked, lights on, the other day left my oven on a low warming temperature for 2 days before I noticed. He said his absent-mindedness has never caused any serious problems. This is how he is and it won't change, so I can take it or leave it.

And he's right.  The way he keeps his house tells you everything you need to know about what an acceptable living situation is for him.  He might be able to slightly improve when you two live together, but he is who he is and likely isn't going to change very much, and nagging isn't going to make it any better.  So, this is definitely one of those things that you need to ask yourself if you can live with forever, or if you would be better off trying to find someone who is more at your level.  But if you decide to "take it," you can't keep harping on him for not rising to your level of cleanliness.

[Ruby Slippers]

4 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Yes, but hasn't RS often stated that she desires a "traditional man/role" type of relationship?

Yes, I do like that he's a manly man and he likes that I'm a feminine woman. Generally we're both fine doing tasks according to traditional gender lines. He does almost all the driving, mows the yard - I clean the house, do the laundry. But I don't think that gives him free rein to mess up the kitchen. That starts to feel unfair. Anyway, I'm realizing it's not deliberate, just mindless.

[Ruby Slippers]

3 minutes ago, clia said:

nagging isn't going to make it any better

I hate to say it, but nagging is the only thing that has made a difference! It's only when he sees through the expression of my aggravation that it really bothers me and he does anything about it. But we've discussed that I don't want it to get to that point. Nagging is a tedious burden that neither of us enjoys.

For now, I spend less time in the kitchen, and I'm accepting that if I want to do anything in there, I'll have to build in time to clean up the counters and stove beforehand. I try to just ignore the food-splattered stove in the meantime. 

I think the two-kitchen solution is the best one lol He uses my second bathroom and because I have my own nice, clean bathroom, I don't give a damn what he does in there. I only go in there to clean occasionally so he doesn't leave any permanent damage. If it were our house, I'd care even less, as he'd bear the burden of ownership/financial responsibility.

[NuevoYorko]

6 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The problem with Ruby's messy kitchen and Lana's empty laundry hampers is that their partner's have made a conscious and deliberate decision to not do something that is so simple to do, yet they are willing to frustrate and upset their partner over it.
 

That is not necessarily true.  Have you ever tried to change an ingrained habit?  I think it would be just as simple for RS to make a "conscious and deliberate decision" to stop criticizing the guy for being a slob as for him to stop being a slob.  

I'm not on his "side."  That said, we are, as always here, only getting the one side.

[Allupinnit]

My H and I struggled with this, and still do at times.  I'm incredibly clean, my H is mindless.  I walk into a room and immediately see what needs to be picked up and he can just flop onto the sofa without a care.  

You have to learn to let it go.  

[elaine567]

I think I might be "mindless" too if I knew someone else would tidy up after me.

[thefooloftheyear]

6 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Yes, I do like that he's a manly man and he likes that I'm a feminine woman. Generally we're both fine doing tasks according to traditional gender lines. He does almost all the driving, mows the yard - I clean the house, do the laundry. But I don't think that gives him free rein to mess up the kitchen. That starts to feel unfair. Anyway, I'm realizing it's not deliberate, just mindless.

Here is something else to consider...

I own my properties....I can do whatever I want with/in them.....I am a neatnik, but if I desired to throw all my crap in a pile or take a leak off my front porch, that's the right I earned as the owner of that property..

If I am inhabiting someone else's domain, then their rules apply...Even if they didn't stress about it or never laid down any rules , I would think that it's best to clean up fastidiously. far more so than I would my own place to avoid the confusion and issue...That's I think what most people would do, anyway, but I dunno...

TFY

[Allupinnit]

@elaine567 - the problem is though, they usually don't care enough to.  I know the issue with my H is that his mother never made him do that stuff for himself.  I don't think she has the standard of clean that I do.  I, on the other hand, expect everyone to pitch in, including my SD.  She makes her bed and puts her clothes in the basket and brings her dishes to the sink.  I have to ask most of the time, but my H and SD oblige.  

If we're all living in the same house then it's EVERYONE'S funk and therefore EVERYONE should be pitching in, not just the woman.  I just think most of the time it doesn't even occur to them that it needs to get done.  Did you know that upon coming home, a woman's anxiety level rises while a man's typically falls?  We're wired so differently.  A woman's mind immediately starts thinking of all the things to do while a man wants to relax.  It's hard but you can train them to be better.  He'll never be as clean as you are, though.  

[Ruby Slippers]

Just now, elaine567 said:

I think I might be "mindless" too if I knew someone else would tidy up after me.

Right?!

While I'm trying to accept it's not deliberate, it's just not the way I think. When we were still going to the office, I was staying at his apartment in the city for the way shorter commute. He complained that I was taking too long to clean up the cat hair. I have a long-haired cat who sheds. The shedding is annoying, but she's a great cat, so I accept it and try to keep up with the cleaning.

I immediately responded to the feedback and began cleaning up the cat hair every day or two instead of once a week. It wasn't a big deal to make this small adaptation. He only had to ask me once. Personally, I wouldn't dream of ignoring such a request, especially since I'm a guest in his apartment and as I figure, that would be downright rude and inconsiderate. But clearly, not everybody thinks like this.

He's a smart guy. Maybe deep down, he does a certain calculation, figuring that he contributes in X, Y, and Z ways, so he doesn't really have to step up in that way, assuming I'll do my own calculation and determine there's more good than bad. 

I'd definitely respect him more and feel more attraction if he'd take the feedback and step up. That's where "compromise" comes in.

[Ruby Slippers]

3 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

If I am inhabiting someone else's domain, then their rules apply...Even if they didn't stress about it or never laid down any rules , I would think that it's best to clean up fastidiously. far more so than I would my own place to avoid the confusion and issue...That's I think what most people would do, anyway, but I dunno...

Amen! Again, compromise... even though he doesn't meet my admittedly high standard, he seems to keep my place far cleaner than his own places.

He's already made it clear he wants to get married, while I've said there's no way I'd consider that before being involved for at least a year. If I get to the point of seriously considering it, I'm going to have some serious, hard nose discussions with him about this. I'm serious about the two kitchens thing. That would completely solve the problem. He can afford it, and now, with my new job, so can I. 

Or, even though I'm not into paying people to clean my house (another topic), I've considered that I might only agree to marriage if he agrees that we can pay for someone to clean the house periodically, as a counter to his messiness. I'd never need that on my own - but with him, it could be a relationship saver.

[Emilie Jolie]

When I first moved in with my partner after 1 year+ of dating, I moved out 2 weeks later. I had lived with flatmates but not with a guy, and I couldn't handle it. It wasn't the mess for me, it was the feeling that I was never alone. I did not like it. We tried to go back to how things were before I moved in, but he was obviously a bit heartbroken and I was, to be blunt, a self-centered bytch in retrospect. We left it a few months, but the feelings didn't disappear so we gave it another shot. What has made it work (besides the fact we had developed deep feelings towards each other and didn't want to see the other one go) is his infinite patience. He let me go at my pace, didn't pressure me into anything, always made sure to tell me I was free to go back to my place whenever I wanted.

It probably was a lot like training a stray cat. 🥴

In return, I gave it my best shot adapting to the minutae of life under the same roof.

@Ruby SlippersYou guys started with a bang, and are having to deal with unusual circumstances by playing house much sooner than perhaps you were ready for. A steep learning curve! But yeah, doable with patience and care.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[preraph]

It bothers me that he's cleaner in his own kitchen than yours, and that can only be because he expects you to do the cleaning there.  I do wonder if it's only clean at his house when he knows you're coming over, though, or because he doesn't USE his kitchen for cooking.  

 

You are on the extreme end of the neat kitchen spectrum.  I mean, it's nice and clean and all, but not many people could live up to that, certainly not myself!  I've always got a couple of skillets in the sink soaking and tend to clean them right before I need them again the next day.  I do consider myself organized and could not live with someone (or barely tolerate at all) someone who isn't.  I think you'll have a helluva time finding any person and especially any man who will live up to your meticulousness in the kitchen.  I think if you can get them to pick up their own plates and glasses, rinse them and put them in the dishwasher and generally not be a slob, you'll be doing good.  If you lived together, you'd want them to help mop the floors too.  I think the crumbs may be something you might have to accept as long as he doesn't leave them on purpose!  Or rings of moisture or whatever.  

 

As far as the fridge, if you live together, then maybe you still need to dedicate one shelf to him so he doesn't spill everything onto your stuff. That's what roommates have to do.  

 

Your story about you and your man reminds me of a line from one of my favorite Bowie songs, "Candidate."  "When it's good, it's really good, and when it's bad, I fall to pieces."

[Ruby Slippers]

3 minutes ago, preraph said:

It bothers me that he's cleaner in his own kitchen than yours, and that can only be because he expects you to do the cleaning there.  

I think you'll have a helluva time finding any person and especially any man who will live up to your meticulousness in the kitchen. 

It's the opposite. He's much cleaner in my house than his own. That shows me he is making an effort.

I've never had this problem with any other boyfriend, and we spent plenty of time staying at each other's places. I guess I tend to date clean freaks like myself. But of course, he has other good qualities that they didn't have. Compromise.

[Allupinnit]

Also @RubySlippers - if it's not the cleanliness it's going to be his mother.  If it's not his mother it's going to be too much debt.  If it's not that it's going to be that he likes bad music.  If not that then his sense of style is off.  You get what I'm saying - we're all going to have to put up with another's flaws if you want to be in a committed relationship.  Do you think you might have some commitment issues?  I have always sensed that with each relationship something eats away at you until it's become such a huge deal in your head that you back away - like the last dude you didn't think was smart enough (or was it his finances?)

You two are certainly not the first couple to address tidiness together

 

 

[preraph]

9 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

It's the opposite. He's much cleaner in my house than his own. That shows me he is making an effort.

I've never had this problem with any other boyfriend, and we spent plenty of time staying at each other's places. I guess I tend to date clean freaks like myself. But of course, he has other good qualities that they didn't have. Compromise.

Oh, Okay.  I got that backwards.  It's good you're able to find clean freak boyfriends!  I must be running with the wrong crowd.  Of course, the older generation men didn't spend much time in the kitchen, period, and they do now.  

[Ruby Slippers]

2 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Also @RubySlippers - if it's not the cleanliness it's going to be his mother.  If it's not his mother it's going to be too much debt.  If it's not that it's going to be that he likes bad music.  If not that then his sense of style is off.  You get what I'm saying - we're all going to have to put up with another's flaws if you want to be in a committed relationship.  Do you think you might have some commitment issues?  I have always sensed that with each relationship something eats away at you until it's become such a huge deal in your head that you back away - like the last dude you didn't think was smart enough (or was it his finances?)

You two are certainly not the first couple to address tidiness together

Exactly. His parents are both deceased, and early on, he joked that I'll never have to deal with a mother-in-law  

I'm not sure if it's commitment issues, but I am pretty sure I'm somewhat... neuro-atypical... as is he. Our favorite TV show is "The Big Bang Theory," about exceptionally intelligent science types who operate on that hyper brainy level and have trouble relating to "neurotypical" people. Maybe it's OCD, mild Asperger's, some combination - but he and I are both high-intelligence overachievers who have been that way since a very young age, "different" in some ways but high achieving, generally lone wolves who run our own show, both quite particular, like things the way we like them.

We watched "A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood" the other night, about Mr. Rogers, and spent the next day having deep discussions about how I have high ideals and aspire to realize my higher nature, while he's more earthy and pragmatic, not concerned with these "heavenly" matters, and will he ever understand or support that aspect of me? Then for the next day he defended himself, saying that though it's not immediately obvious, he cares a lot about the plight of the suffering and isn't as morally mediocre as I suspect he is.

Our next spat was about him staring at this woman at a restaurant. I later joked that Mr. Rogers would never check out other women on a date LOL

We could probably make our own sitcom.

[Allupinnit]

Well no, your date should NOT be checking out other women right in front of you.  Gross.

[preraph]

You know, I have never once watched "The Big Bang Theory" and thought, Boy, those characters are smart.  

 

I want to see that Mr. Rogers movie.  It's good you're on the same page about that type of thing. 

[Ruby Slippers]

This is the discussion I didn't want to get into. I've read a million articles and discussions of the topic online. It's one of those universal disagreements between men and women.

This was the last straw that had me wanting to throw in the towel. I've talked to him about this before. It hadn't happened for a long time. I almost fell over when he approached me and apologized for it. 

I've made it clear it's not something I can compromise on or settle for - in fact, he said exactly that, that I shouldn't compromise or settle on that point. I couldn't even if I tried, as it totally ruins the date for me.

[Allupinnit]

Ok so this is the whole "habit vs character" thing.  Checking out another woman in front of you to the point where you noticed and called him on it is a character flaw.  I personally would pass on a man who did that crap.

The cleanliness is habit and can be compromised on.  Not a deal breaker.

[Ruby Slippers]

1 minute ago, Allupinnit said:

Ok so this is the whole "habit vs character" thing.  Checking out another woman in front of you to the point where you noticed and called him on it is a character flaw.  I personally would pass on a man who did that crap.

My theory is that, just as he suspects, most women he's been involved with including his ex-wife have been primarily interested in him because he's a high earner. So I doubt he's ever really been called on this behavior - in fact, he says he never had before - as those women weren't interested in love/feelings, more interested in the practical benefits. Part of love is letting your partner know how and why they hurt you, being open and real. I think he gets it. It's no accident that this is the first time he apologized on his own with no prompting.

[Allupinnit]

1 minute ago, Ruby Slippers said:

My theory is that, just as he suspects, most women he's been involved with including his ex-wife have been primarily interested in him because he's a high earner. So I doubt he's ever really been called on this behavior - in fact, he says he never had before - as those women weren't interested in love/feelings, more interested in the practical benefits. Part of love is letting your partner know how and why they hurt you, being open and real. I think he gets it. It's no accident that this is the first time he apologized on his own with no prompting.

I'm sorry but that is SUCH a stretch to excuse that disrespect.  He only does it because nobody cared before?  COME ON.  *eye roll*. 

[Ruby Slippers]

He didn't try to excuse it. He just said that it's never been pointed out to him before. It aligns with everything I know about his relationship history. 

Men are wired to check out attractive women, period. It's only when a woman he loves makes it clear that him doing it right in front of her is hurtful that he starts to understand he needs to curb it in front of her. I'm likely more sensitive to and less tolerant of it than most women. 

The discussion has been had and I'm over it. Certainly I'll look out for it in the future, and if it continues, that'll be it for me. I made that very clear to him.

[Allupinnit]

None of us are blind.

You see someone attractive, you glance, then get back to your date.  That's how "normal" people do it.  I am married and still look at hot men I see out and about, but not to the point where my H notices and gets upset. 

But since you've already buried that hatchet, then great.  I just think the tidiness is not nearly as big of a deal.