The totally contrarian articles that are out

[QuietRiot]

I've been following this one doctor on You Tube for many years...even come pre-covid has he's been in the field for 40 years. Now this post isn't about face coverings, but how there are seriously contradictory articles STILL out there. According to him and many well versed and 100% scienced-based experts if we ALL wore masks....we'd simply and tremendously tone down on the rate of transmission. He went on to see the ridiculousness of people congregating in groups in swimming areas come this past Memorial Day was quite disturbing to him.

Anyways, I think most of my friends are holistic healers or auu natural and that the wearing of masks is simply bulls*** and that you should just build your immune system up. But when I fired back with, "WEll, even if you're immune and asymptomatic, you could still spread it to others with a weak immune system" Thus the implication of being selfish if you DON"T wear them.  Virtue signaling, etc.

I said the more  I read about the spread of the virus, the more I had become cemented in wearing of the masks and social distancing, she said the more SHE read, she's going down the...."dangerous" path of not wearing masks and inviting a small group of friends over for game night (yes, she's been doing this...probably with friends with all healthy immune systems). Of course her attitude is like "Well, they just need to start living more healthy lifestyles, so it's really on them if they don't". 

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/the-risks-vs-benefits-of-face-masks-is-there-an-agenda/?fbclid=IwAR3uictRXxS46f2NcCZmTtp7ttTyOC_mFo2Y9joLpnoezu1JwaWUYrzs0l8

 

She showed me this article where apparently, wearing masks, when infected with a virus...you can actually breath the virus back into your respiratory tract. And there's the issue of CO2 poisoning.  I thought that was quite far reaching and outright pseudo science.  I told her this and let's just say we aren't on speaking terms anymore.

I have friends going further and further into the rabbit whole of their own demise, while they are calling it fear mongering going on these days.

 

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

Be careful of the source. Primarily this site is an anti-vax organization and it appears to slant information toward that goal. Not that anti-vax is necessarily wrong, I'm not trying to judge but that's obviously going to heavily influence how any data in it is presented. So the likelihood of the article being non-biased and simply informational is small.

From Wikipedia:

A study found Children's Health Defense was one of major buyers of anti-vaccine Facebook advertising in December 2018 and February 2019, the other being Stop Mandatory Vaccination. Heavily targeting women and young couples, the advertising highlighted the alleged risks of vaccines and asked for donations.[16][17] According to an analysis by NBC News, the group is one of three major sources of false claims on vaccination shared on the internet, the other two being the fake news site Natural News and the website Stop Mandatory Vaccination.[18]

During the COVID-19 pandemic, the group accused the United States government of supporting research on a vaccine as part of a plan to increase revenues for the pharmaceutical industry.[7]

Back to me: articles conflict because data can be found to support either position. This debate will simply rage on. It has become a battleground, in many ways. So don't expect it to resolve any time soon. I hate to put it that way but that's how it's happening right now. It's for sure the current hill to die on and you probably will not change this doctor's mind and she will not change yours, so just do what you think is best.

Edited May 28, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[QuietRiot]

24 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Be careful of the source. Primarily this site is an anti-vax organization and it appears to slant information toward that goal. Not that anti-vax is necessarily wrong, I'm not trying to judge but that's obviously going to heavily influence how any data in it is presented. So the likelihood of the article being non-biased and simply informational is small.

From Wikipedia:

A study found Children's Health Defense was one of major buyers of anti-vaccine Facebook advertising in December 2018 and February 2019, the other being Stop Mandatory Vaccination. Heavily targeting women and young couples, the advertising highlighted the alleged risks of vaccines and asked for donations.[16][17] According to an analysis by NBC News, the group is one of three major sources of false claims on vaccination shared on the internet, the other two being the fake news site Natural News and the website Stop Mandatory Vaccination.[18]

During the COVID-19 pandemic, the group accused the United States government of supporting research on a vaccine as part of a plan to increase revenues for the pharmaceutical industry.[7]

Back to me: articles conflict because data can be found to support either position. This debate will simply rage on. It has become a battleground, in many ways. So don't expect it to resolve any time soon. I hate to put it that way but that's how it's happening right now. It's for sure the current hill to die on and you probably will not change this doctor's mind and she will not change yours, so just do what you think is best.

Right, and when the majority of your friends are on this band wagon....you're really just preaching to the choir (is that the right context?) and you can't talk to them about this subject anymore. 

She shows a MEME of Neo stopping bullets with "I'm immune, boost your immunity, so you'll have no worries!" There IS some merit to eating whole foods and staying in shape no doubt...and...Covid 19 has been targeted obese, diabetics, and renal patients as far as serious problems and mortality rates. So there is something to eating healthy.  I mean, *knock on wood* I stopped taking the annual flu vaccine for several years and it's been a VERY long time since I had the flu.

The only reason that one time I DID get it was because of sleep deprivation (was staying up too late on the computer every damned night, and I blamed myself). It lowered my immune system.  SO I make sure to be well rested.

What I have found fascinating about this virus is how some people get it, recover, and just shrug it off. I bet some are surprised when they get the anti body test, find out they are immune and didn't know they had it. They walk away from it completely unscathed.  Some have attributed to that to the viral load. The higher the load, the greater the symptoms. If you get infected with a handful of Corona, you could suffer the least from it.

Enclosed areas for long periods of time, like subways and airplanes...well, it's a ticking time bomb there. But sitting outside with others on a patio, spaced apart...the viral particles are diluted. 

Edited May 28, 2020 by QuietRiot

[schlumpy]

Of course. Lets all go back to a "natural" form of living where half your children died before the age of 3 and the average life span was a remarkable 35 years.

[Ellener]

2 hours ago, schlumpy said:

Of course. Lets all go back to a "natural" form of living where half your children died before the age of 3 and the average life span was a remarkable 35 years.

I used to be pro-vaccines, pro-science, pro-medicine, but then I came to live in America.

Where much of health care is more about marketing and selling than anything else.

And where there's such a spread of care too- with the pandemic it does not surprise me that America will have the most deaths but also the most spectacular recoveries and quite likely the treatments and cures will be developed here now research is a priority.

My first encounter with US medicine was being told my son needed an operation, then it turned out it was pre existing which wasn't covered prior to PPACA, then our plans to take him back to the UK were scuppered by September 11th. I went back to the surgeon in tears who told me don't worry about it- he'll be fine without the operation! And he was, it just was a different longer process of healing the bones, and I read up on herbs and fed him milk puddings and we went out in the sunlight for Vitamin D.

The surgeon had told me what was the 'best practice' from a fix-it-now outcome, and certainly for their business which would have charged many thousands, and he was kind and responsible and knowledgeable  enough to guide me through an alternative when it couldn't be done.

I've had enough similar occurances in the intervening years to seek out holistic practitioners like him and to not assume that science fixes everything and makes life perfect or is always available.

With perfect synchronicity when I awoke I was thinking this morning about a musician I met a few times, very good composer and performer in the field of church music. She came to be leader of a concert I was in and at the reception afterwards went on about the miracles of healing she'd seen in a recent humanitarian tour of Africa. I was irritated at the time, in her enthusiasm she made it all sound a bit crazy, but a phrase she used sticks with me 'they have so little, sometimes faith, food and music is all they have'.

I get it now. And when I developed a severe anxiety disorder after the Harvey floods I saw a wonderfully older psychiatrist who told me I had a physical not mental illness, my body was ramped up with adrenalin ready for fight or flight from the trauma...he said let's treat that and slow down your heart rate when you feel a panic attack coming on. It worked, but think of all the additional struggles I might have had without his insight whilst I wasn't thinking clearly, if someone had prescribed an addictive sedative or psychotropic.

We evolved to live 'natural' lives and our bodies heal themselves, or we die- and we all die eventually no matter what- but doctors have found ways to help us heal. It's a balance, not an either or.

Regarding lifespan @schlumpy the most important factor influencing longevity was found to be infant nutrition in the first five years of life. 

 

 

 

[sothereiwas]

10 minutes ago, Ellener said:

the most important factor influencing longevity was found to be infant nutrition in the first five years of life. 

Now that people don't commonly die birthing their first child or from common childhood infections, other factors can rise in the rankings, sure. Doesn't mean we should think reverting is a good thing. 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, sothereiwas said:

Now that people don't commonly die birthing their first child or from common childhood infections, other factors can rise in the rankings, sure. Doesn't mean we should think reverting is a good thing. 

People soon will be dying again from common infections because our antibiotics will soon be ineffective. They already are with MRSA.

Clearly these brainless bacteria and viruses are evolving faster than we are now! 

It's not 'reverting' to see a big picture and embrace it, we've got big brains and knowledge in them, it's up to us to use it. We expend too much human energy in pointless arguments...which is my cue to go do some work! Physician heal thyself...😄

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, Ellener said:

People soon will be dying again from common infections because our antibiotics will soon be ineffective.

We are not limited to existing technologies - we can and likely will develop new treatments. That's how we use our big brains to continue winning at life. 

[elaine567]

35 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

we can and likely will develop new treatments.

I guess with some new vigour after the pandemic.
Nothing like a pandemic to concentrate minds...

[CaliforniaGirl]

It always surprises me that people can be pro- or against pharma, pro- or against nutritional/holistic methods, pro- or against vaccines (all), etc., etc. Science changes continuously, pharmaceuticals aren't just all one thing moving as literally just one body even if it seems like it at times and every event for every person will be individual. I would no sooner thoughtlessly take a pill than I would thoughtlessly walk out into the middle of a bunch of sick people chewing some zinc. I believe in staying generally healthy and eating well and exercising but that doesn't mean I'm going to deny chemo if I get diagnosed with some specific type of cancer or other. I will often take medicine for a migraine but that doesn't mean I'm reaching for pills every time I have a little pain in my head. I think first...I'm glad we have ALL options now...I'm glad we live in the time we do...

It's, in my opinion, a uniquely American phenomenon to take sides on pretty much every single thing we think, do or even have a loose brush with.  Not everything is black-and-white. JMO.

[Gaeta]

7 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/the-risks-vs-benefits-of-face-masks-is-there-an-agenda/?fbclid=IwAR3uictRXxS46f2NcCZmTtp7ttTyOC_mFo2Y9joLpnoezu1JwaWUYrzs0l8

If you google the Dr that wrote this article you'll see he's pretty anti-anything. Is he even a doctor, and a doctor of what...he's a chiropractor I think? and he's writing article on viruses travelling back to your lungs if you wear a mask? ....ya right. 

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

I believe in staying generally healthy and eating well and exercising but that doesn't mean I'm going to deny chemo if I get diagnosed with some specific type of cancer or other.

Yes, I think it depends on the cancer and personally weighing up the journey and likely outcome. 

4 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

We are not limited to existing technologies - we can and likely will develop new treatments. That's how we use our big brains to continue winning at life. 

Well we had allowed existing antibiotic technology to expire despite scientific warnings, maybe the pandemic will motivate some better planning and redistribution of resources, not to mention the passion for discovery!

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

It's, in my opinion, a uniquely American phenomenon to take sides on pretty much every single thing we think, do or even have a loose brush with

'Yes' or 'no' conclusions via sound-bytes of someone else's ideas/persuasion is way easier than reading and thinking? Then take on a momentum of their own ( 'bandwagon'?! ) Erich Fromm wrote in 1941

'...by adapting himself to social conditions man develops those traits that make him desire to act as he has to act....the energies of people are moulded in ways that make them into productive forces that are indispensable for the functioning of that society.'

 

[schlumpy]

4 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I guess with some new vigour after the pandemic.
Nothing like a pandemic to concentrate minds...

It's like being on a war time footing. Nothing like the threat of imminent death to sharpen one's wits.

[mark clemson]

Meds and vaccines are not 100% perfectly safe. However, generally, the risk of death/serious complications from  a vaccine is on the order of 1 / 1M and non-herbal meds go through a rigorous safety screening process, that is rarely shortcut. Things can still happen, for example a severe allergic reaction, accidental overdose, etc, but you have to pick your risks in life. Most meds with a higher risk won't be sold OTC, with acetaminophen being an unfortunate exception that people OD on way too frequently. (Used as directed it poses minimal risk, but hey, it's been proven time and again that people are morons.)

Anyhow, if there's a 1/100 risk of death from eventually getting COVID and a 4/100 risk of severe injury/lasting complications vs a 1/1M risk from the vaccine (once proven fully safe), it's pretty much a no-brainer.

Now if they shortcut testing a COVID vaccine in a rush to get one out, that would be a different matter. That's theoretically possible in this case IMO, so I'll be waiting a few months just to make sure it doesn't get recalled.

 

[sothereiwas]

Does anyone know what we call alternative medicine that works? We call it medicine. 

[carhill]

OP, IMO science is always changing and evolving and there will always be disagreement among people of conscience during that process. What I've done in life is take in all the contrarian or contradictory views/opinions/research and make personal decisions I feel and think are best for my personal health. Perfect? Nope! However, the reality that I've spanned now eight decades of existence with practically zero interaction with the medical industry and no major health problems underscores that, for some of us, our own biological processes are sufficient for long-lasting health. Of course everyone is different, which is why I always opine each of us should gather knowledge and do what's best for ourselves, even if it appears contrarian to what others do. I believe this is all part of the free will we are blessed with as humans.

[CaliforniaGirl]

5 hours ago, schlumpy said:

It's like being on a war time footing. Nothing like the threat of imminent death to sharpen one's wits.

It'll keep you awake, for sure...

[CaliforniaGirl]

5 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

Does anyone know what we call alternative medicine that works? We call it medicine. 

I get the sentiment and in a lot of ways, philosophically I agree with this...but there actually is a distinction...usually when we give something the stamp of "medicine" it's to show it has come out of the other side of some sort of regulated set of processes and critiques, i.e. peer-reviewed, replicable studies and trials, as well as...well, other stuff, LOL. ( <--- obviously not a scientist...I mean, you get the idea). Alternative medicine usually (the line can be blurry) is deemed so because it's touted in certain ways that makes claims that may have never officially been studied. And while anecdotal evidence is still evidence, it's irresponsible to say "my son was CURED of autism by me chelating him at home with Dr. Johnblatt's miracle internal chalk!" or "Your doctor is LYING to you, here's why your thyroid medication could be harming you and why you should take iodine instead..." Hence...the dividing line. At least as I understand things.

Medicine will (to an irritating extent) C its own A, deliver the disclaimers, deliver the data that's been accumulated about it, reveal side effects including percentages and severity, and issue warnings. Alternative medicine often just doesn't.

Medicine also takes responsibily (to an extent). If my doctor tells me Drug X absolutely will work and don't worry about SEs, and I stroke out, I could potentially sue her, I can (definitely can) report her, there are measures. Dr. Johnblatt, not so much. He can just state that there was a small disclaimer on the landing page of his site, and he isn't technically responsible for my *personal choice* to take his product *without consulting my physician first*. So it's a responsiblity thing too.

There are distinctions.

This doesn't mean alternative medicine never works. If Dr. Johnblatt tells me that daily exercise may very well address my depression and could complement any protocol I'm already on, he's probably right and it's good advice. I'm not trying to diss alt med. I take vitamins, I take certain supplements (under my doctor's advice) that could be considered alt by some. But it's not really as simple as: well, the Powers that Be haven't given their official seal of approval, hence something that could very well save the world is just not called medicine. (Sorry for the hyperbole, just trying to explain. Pleae be aware that I'm posting this on 45 minutes of sleep in the past 24 hours so that's my own disclaimer.)

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[preraph]

Listen to the doctors and scientists on this. Everything else is just not caring and political bs. The fact is there are a bunch of young and middle-aged people out there who just don't care because they are convinced they're not going to get it in there probably right. They don't care if they infect other people. They're just doing what's the most convenient for themselves. 

 

it's completely ridiculous that this is all become politicized but in this atmosphere it's certainly not surprising. 

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

(Sorry for the hyperbole, just trying to explain. Pleae be aware that I'm posting this on 45 minutes of sleep in the past 24 hours so that's my own disclaimer.)

Are you not sleeping? 

 

[sothereiwas]

56 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

This doesn't mean alternative medicine never works.

That's true. It takes time, but if it's proven to actually work, we do call it medicine. Otherwise, not. The times something alternative ends up being proven to work are relatively rare, but it sure does happen.