Ask adult children to assist resolving relationship problems

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, Wondering3 said:

Mostly news and chat lists. Often political stuff. Stockmarket. No, she doesn't work. I'm the bread winner. No excess alcohol or drugs.

OK so an intelligent woman.
I guess resentment built up over her "wasted life".

[schlumpy]

Her interests are mainstream. Nothing much there.

Upset about the counselor's comment on family history? I guess that's an avenue to explore. Unresolved childhood issues.

I don't know how to get your wife into a safe place if after 30 years of marriage she still thinks you are going to leave at any moment. This could be a deep rooted feeling that has always been present or she could have done something in the past that makes her feel as if you should leave her. I think that you can explore that thought for awhile and see what comes of it. It certainly would fit in with her dislike of marriage counselors.

It's possible that the way you interact with her is causing her insecurity? Everyone has thresholds of tolerance that can be exceeded during arguments where emotion is thick in the air.

Is she unwilling to do individual therapy?

Edited May 30, 2020 by schlumpy

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, Wondering3 said:

the counselor made a comment that insecurities are sometimes related to family history. She found that suggestion deeply offensive and refused to see the counselor again.

Maybe family history was the trigger, but surely all counselling will delve into such stuff.
That is essentially what they do, they try to explain present behaviour by looking at the past.
Maybe it was more about suggesting she was insecure... which she may have seen as a personal attack.
Or it touched a nerve...

[BaileyB]

These issues are long standing, they are going to be difficult to resolve. 

I personally would not involve your children in your marital problems. They may be adults now, but they are still your children and they should not feel responsible for healing your marriage. 

If my parents were not able to deal with their issues together, or with a counsellor, I would rather they acknowledge that they have grown apart or it’s just not working and separate/divorce. Your children are adults, they can deal with it. It may in fact be something they have been anticipating for a while...

Edited May 30, 2020 by BaileyB

[elaine567]

Unless the kids are professionals in conflict resolution, or are counsellors/therapists or are in similar professions, then what can they possibly do?
They are going to be placed in the middle and that is going to be uncomfortable for them.
My guess is the OP wants to recruit his kids to help point out to his wife where she is going wrong, but I could be wrong... 

[Emilie Jolie]

Your wife doesn't want IC or MC, she doesn't get on well with her family, is jealous of yours, still ruminates over 30yo arguments, doesn't talk to you, you on the other hand did IC, are here asking for advice and you're out of options.

By wanting to talk to your kids, are you kind of hoping they give you the green light for a divorce? If so, you don't need their permission or blessing; you know that, right? That's entirely your decision to make. You don't even need your wife's agreement. 

[BaileyB]

25 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Your wife doesn't want IC or MC, she doesn't get on well with her family, is jealous of yours, still ruminates over 30yo arguments, doesn't talk to you

Which is why I wonder if the kids won’t be surprised by the idea of their parents divorcing at all... they may have anticipated it, or even wanted it to happen, for years...

[Lotsgoingon]

Involving the adults kids? ... hmmm ... I love the creativity and outside-the-box thinking ... but no, doing that won't help. I don't think getting the kids involved will hurt, because frankly they have already experienced the effects of your bad marriage. Most likely, unless your kids are really blind, they have begun to recognize the effects of growing up with parents who aren't deeply connected. 

But you are adults, you and your wife ... and it strikes me that you are trying to occupy a helpless kid position. If your marriage past the point of repair, no fantasy desire on your part will change that. Fantasy is only an escape. So the question becomes: why are you staying in the marriage?

You need to have a mature answer here beyond just that you don't have the energy to divorce.  Have you figured out at all why your wife is so uninterested in counseling? I know a couple where the wife would go to couples counseling with the hubby and then quit ... and think what became clear is that the couple was not having sex at all ... and the wife really wanted to bring that up ... but was too embarrassed to bring up sex and affection before counselor. So she kept just sabotaging the therapy. 

Seems to me you would do well to go to counseling yourself. Remember, you chose this woman and you failed to confront her for many many years and apparently you just stop trying in the relationship.So for that reason alone, you are at least 50 percent of the problem in the relationship. You with me?

Are you secretly (and I don't this in a critical way) looking for the kids to give you permission to leave the marriage? I know all kinds of miserable folks who stay in marriages because they are terrified that their adult kids will hate them. 

 

 

[d0nnivain]

Leave your kids out of it.  They can't be neutral.  They love you both but you can't stick them in the middle.  

If MC hasn't worked try a communications workshop.  When DH & I first got married, we had challenges.  We took a communications workshop.  I had to learn how to listen more.  He had to learn not to clam up because his stoic silences made me more upset.  

I also read a bunch of pop psychology books that all boiled down to appreciating your partner for the things they do for you, not harping on the bad stuff & learning to whisper rather then yell to keep a lid on my own emotions & not escalate when sticky thorny stuff has to be discussed.  You can only control you but if you can manage to be polite almost to a fault when the bad stuff arises rather then taking the bait when your SO is upset, taking it out on you & spoiling for a fight, it's better. 

[Wondering3]

No, I really don't think that the shopping incident was about that I was encroaching on her patch, elaine567. She wanted to buy her wine and I was getting some candles and cream. It was a stressful situation because we were running late. So we didn't have a real conversation. I told her: "OK, I'll quickly go in and get the candles and cream and then you get in to get the wine."

During our argument afterward she never suggested that I should have let her do all the shopping instead. That was not her issue. Her issue was always that the security guard didn't have the right to stop her from entering. And that I didn't support her when I found out that she entered after me anyway.

But I agree that if I would have gone to the car the issue would obviously not have arisen.

[Wondering3]

elaine567: Yes, during one fight she told me that she thinks her life was wasted. And she does acknowledge herself that she has insecurity issues.

Emilie Jolie: No I absolutely don't want the kids to endorse any decision to get divorced. But it is correct that I do want someone to look at the situation and point out who's behaviour is normal. So in that sense you are right that I want them to take sides. But my motivation is not to be right for the sake of being right, but so that she realises that my behaviour is normal and appropriate. I feel constantly unjustly attacked and want to clear my name, if that makes sense.

And yes, the children are obviously aware that our marriage has always been conflicted. So it is nothing new for them, but so far we always avoided asking them to give their opinion. And it seems the majority of you think it is better to keep it that way.

But as I said, the problem is that she refuses to see counseling with me or alone and that I believe that the issues are deeply rooted and we need some impartial person to help us. I went to counseling myself for several months and the result was very similar to what many of you are suggesting: Why am I trying so save something that can't be saved and that I should face the reality and leave her.

I like your idea, d0nnivain, of a communication workshop. A communication workshop might be less threatening to her and it may give us some tools to work on the issues ourselves.

[BaileyB]

43 minutes ago, Wondering3 said:

it is correct that I do want someone to look at the situation and point out who's behaviour is normal. So in that sense you are right that I want them to take sides. But my motivation is not to be right for the sake of being right, but so that she realises that my behaviour is normal and appropriate.

You say that you don’t want to put the children in the middle such that they would be forced to take sides... but, you do very much want them to tell your wife that her behavior is not normal or appropriate so that a) she will finally change and b) you won’t feel so attacked. 

You very much have an agenda, and that’s not fair to your children. 

Your story reminds me of the story Michelle Obama tells in her book. Hopefully the quote will work, I would rather use her words than paraphrase.  "I was one of those wives who thought, 'I'm taking you to marriage counseling so you can be fixed, Barack Obama.' I was like, 'Dr. X, please fix him,'" she said with a smile. "And then, our counselor looked over at me. I was like, 'What are you looking at? I'm perfect.'"

“Marriage counseling was a turning point for me, understanding that it wasn't up to my husband to make me happy. Sometimes you need an objective person to just hear you out. If I’m going to show up equal in this partnership, I have to be able to make myself happy and so I had to stop focusing on what he wasn’t doing and start thinking about how to carve out the life that I wanted for myself, with or without Barack.”

You sound like a very nice man with the best of intentions. But I’ll be honest here... if you are not happy in your marriage, you alone have the responsibility to change that. And let’s be even more honest here... the only person that you control is yourself. Expecting another person to change - such that she is more “normal” like you - is not a wise way to approach a relationship, it usually doesn’t bring about much success. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by BaileyB

[Wondering3]

That's a fair comment, Bailey B

The difference is that I DO want to go to counseling. I guess in most cases when couples go to counseling both expect that the counselor would "support" their own point. And they may get surprised when the counselor doesn't. So I think this is quite normal. But I am prepared to take that "risk" if you want to call it that. And of course I also hope that counseling would give us much more than just support of one side or another, but rather provide ways and approaches and mechanisms and insights on how to avoid or manage conflicts.

But the point is that she refuses to go to counseling. She says that no counselors will understand her anyway. I also suggested that she could choose which counselor we go to, for example a woman in our age group if she prefers that.

Just to quote your own quote 😉 : "Sometimes you need an objective person to just hear you out." That's exactly what I feel, and where our situation is stuck. (Interesting that she is currently reading Michelle Obama's book...)

But I also hear what you are saying that only one self has the ability to make one happy. I tried to deal with these issues for so many years. So maybe I just have to face reality that I am not able to become happy in this relationship.

PS: I am intrigued by your profile quote: "If they love you, you will know. If they don't, you will wonder all the time if they do..." I couldn't disagree more with this. I have loved my wife all my life, but my love to her is constantly questioned by her.

Interestingly, when in response to her constant doubting I asked my wife to show me some evidence that SHE loved ME, her answer was that the fact that she is constantly jealous of other women is her way of showing me that she loves me.

But anyway, as I said at the start: I believe our issues are too deep to be really resolved on an internet forum like this, and instead we need longer term personal face-to-face help (counseling). But nevertheless it does help to get all your posters views and I am grateful for it.

[Emilie Jolie]

That makes total sense, Wondering3. I personally see my parents as individuals with their own thing going on as well as as my parents, so I would be happy to hear either of them out, but I guess it depends on your own relationship with your kids, and how it may affect the dynamic within your family.  Unless you're planning on giving them minute details of your intimate lives,or are asking them to pick a side (you sound like a reasonable man, I'm sure you won't), I don't see what the problem is in talking to one of your kids. Better that than facing it all on your own. I don't think anyone should, and sometimes, love simply isn't enough. But that's just my perspective.

In any event, I wish the best of luck moving forward, whatever you decide.

[BaileyB]

21 minutes ago, Wondering3 said:

The difference is that I DO want to go to counseling.

But the point is that she refuses to go to counseling.

There is not much you can do friend, if she refuses to go to counselling to hear you out/consider that something is not working and needs to change. That’s probably what your counsellor was trying to tell you, when they suggested that your best option was to separate/end your marriage.

If the very foundation of health behavior change, it ain’t going to happen if the person doesn’t acknowledge that there is a problem and isn’t motivated to change it. And in a marriage, as they say it takes two to tango... If you are the only person going to counselling, you will find yourself going in circles because your other half has not moved at all...

Perhaps it’s time to go back to counselling with a different perspective - Not necessarily with the goal of “fixing your marriage” but this time, to try and find your own happiness, with or without your wife. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by BaileyB

[Wondering3]

Good point. Thanks Bailey B

[elaine567]

10 minutes ago, Wondering3 said:

. I have loved my wife all my life, but my love to her is constantly questioned by her.

She probably doesn't view your "love" in the same way you view your "love.
The bringing up stuff from years/decades ago is quite common in unhappy wives.
Men tend to think that issues and arguments are resolved but women will often go quiet just to keep the peace. He thinks she agreed with his POV but nothing is really resolved.
She harbours grudges and never forgets.
When the relationship goes pearshaped and/or she feels less intimidated maybe, she wheels out her box of smouldering resentment during a fight
She rarely speaks to you  as she has now shut down and lives in a world of the internet that she has control over.
She is probably all cried out, she is now likely emotionally numb, she is running on autopilot. She is in effect self-medicating her pain.
The last thing she wants is for someone to rake over all that stuff again, she has probably been over it in her mind a million times, so she resists counselling...

[BaileyB]

Perhaps Elaine. Or perhaps, she is struggling with a mental health problem. 

[Fox Sake]

14 hours ago, Wondering3 said:

Hi,

My wife and I are having some long running relationship problems around trust, support and jealousy. This situation has been the case for almost 30 years. We were usually able to patch things up for some weeks, but then the conflicts start again, and every time the list of issues becomes longer.

We have two adult children who we both love very much and who have good relationships with both of us. Both live in their own places for some years with their own partners.

We briefly tried relationship counseling several times. I believe it helps, but my wife does not want to do that. We are currently having another severe crisis.

My question is whether it is a good idea to ask our children to help us through this crisis and maybe even to address some of the long term underlying issues. The pros are that they both know us very well and maybe are therefore able to understand the deeper issues. If they can help us it is obviously also beneficial for them if we don't separate.

However, there is of course the risk that they get drawn into the conflict which could result in destroying their good relationship with either me or my wife. I also feel that it is not really their job to sort out their parents' issues. They should have their own lives.

But I also believe that talking to a "neutral third party" is necessary to make any progress in our relationship. Because the issues are so long running and complex I don't believe that any online forums can really help.

Any advice?

Hi , as the adult child,  I’ve been going through something simialr with my parents. ...

Don’t get your kids involved unless you’re willing to take everything on board they say. And that goes for both parties - you and your wife. 
All  it takes is one parent to act like a closed off silky defensive teenager being given guidance,   and things go downhill very quickly. 
 

I've heard a lot of things I would rather not have, said a lot I would rather not have. The saddest part of all, is I now realise my family isn’t what it was anymore, my parents aren’t happy after 36 years.  And that breaks my heart hearing both parties state their cases but never to each other. One wants to fix it and one wants to be alone. One is at home and one has been living on their own somewhere else but not officially. So it’s hard. 
 

I’m managing to deal. I’m mentally strong enough but I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. My brothers have moved so they don’t have to deal with it , and remember the idyllic childhood for what it really was.

I’ll be giving this another 4 months of support and effort until the end of the summer when I’ll leave them to it and go and worry about me again. 
 

You’re  right - it’s between the two of you not your kids. 
If You or your wife were suicidal without the other ,  then it would be a family issue.
 

So please tread lightly with your kids. 
 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Fox Sake

[elaine567]

@BaileyB What I described is not exactly normal or sane.. so yes.
It may not have a definitive psychiatric label, but I guess there is some depression in there, a bit of burn out, disappointment with how her  life turned out...,.
Empty nest, mid life crisis,  even FOO issues...
Menopausal issues too perhaps compounding things..
Very difficult to pinpoint exactly.

[BaileyB]

20 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

@BaileyB What I described is not exactly normal or sane.. so yes.
It may not have a definitive psychiatric label, but I guess there is some depression in there, a bit of burn out, disappointment with how her  life turned out...,.
Empty nest, mid life crisis,  even FOO issues...
Menopausal issues too perhaps compounding things..
Very difficult to pinpoint exactly.

Absolutely. It’s likely that any number of those things have contributed to her finding herself in this current situation. 

[Wondering3]

Fox Sake: Thanks a lot for your feedback. That is some very clear advice from someone who has been involved in a similar situation. So thanks very much.

elaine567 and BaileyB: YES, YES, YES. I believe this is exactly the situation. She told me often that she is "cried out" and that she is obviously shut away in her internet world. But I also think - hopefully without sounding presumptuous - that this situation has evolved because she may have some underlying mental health issues. The excessive jealousy started from the moment we met. At that time I assumed that the reason was because I was her first boyfriend and that this was all new to her. But it hasn't improved at all. Rather the opposite. With time passing it just provides her with more incidents she can interpret as evidence that I don't love her (such as the covid event some days ago which I will hear about for the next ten years), rather than assuring her that I am with her for good.

BTW: I later found out that when she met me she had already had two boyfriends before. With one of them she was even secretly in contact 10 years later during our marriage. So I feel she was from the start never willing to completely open up to me and have a trusting relationship. And I sometimes have the theory that because she never totally opened up and trusted me she naturally assuming that I must also have secrets from her.

But these are all questions that I believe require a lot of time and good conversations to untangle and resolve... Hence my looking for "counseling" options.

[Lotsgoingon]

I'll be blunt: I don't see any chance for you to "fix" this marriage. Not with the wife your wife is behaving. And not with the way you are behaving. Your wife seems withdrawn, bitter, uncommunicative, walled off. You seem very content with not connecting with your spouse, with the distance, the pain. You seem quite quite content. I don't sense any alarm or serious misery. 

Heads up: the point of counseling isn't to come to an intellectual position of divorce or not divorce. The point of counseling (and for you it will take more than months) is get to a point where you can initiate a constructive conversation with your wife. And if she pushes you away, that you have the capacity to confront her without losing your cool and focus. And the capacity to remember what you liked about her and to be able to tell her that with emotional and feeling.

You report on counseling like someone who gets directions for the path of a marathon. Ok, you have some directions. But running the marathon is an entirely different matter, requiring a lot of effort and getting in shape so you can run the course. Counseling could  help you not live in fear and live distant from the wife and really reach out to her and apologize if you need to ... That's what the goal of counseling would  be. It would also be to look around and see if there are other people in your life who are distant like your wife ... and to clean up those relationships. 

 

[Wondering3]

Thanks Lotsgoingon, but I am most certainly not content with the situation. Otherwise I would not have gone to counseling myself or reached out on this forum.

I tried to explain that my reason for counseling is not to come to an "intellectual position of divorce or not divorce". But I am looking for some "directions for that marathon" which you are referring to. I certainly don't assume that it would be resolved in a handful of counseling sessions.

I'm also not sure why you assume that there are other people in my life I would have to "clean up my relationships with".

I accept that I also have to work on my own behaviour. I find it quite difficult to invest in this relationship (going to individual counseling, daily small efforts to connect with her such as suggesting common meals or walks or sport activities, etc) when I have the feeling that this is all a one-sided fruitless effort and will not resolve her underlying mistrust. I feel that this is "unfair", and that is certainly not a good mental position to be in when trying to resolve issues. I have to work on this because it makes me fall into the constant argument/counterargument trap when there are tensions between us.

I also find it very hard to apologize for things that I factually haven't done or which contravene some of my fundamental values and believes (the covid incidence for example). It feels insincere to me. In that example if I would have supported her decision after she got in the shop, wouldn't it be just superficial and dishonest word games? But maybe I am too rigid in those instances...

Anyway thanks for your comments and thoughts.

[Lotsgoingon]

Wonder, I feel for you brother, I really do. And I'm just giving you options given that you don't seem to want to take what seems to me to be a clear option: leave. 

Question: be honest. How long has your connection to your wife been dead? Ten years? ... Twenty years? How since you really liked her ... not loved her ... liked her ... found her wonderful to be around?