My own mind playing games on me

[KenBen]

I have a bit of a problem holding onto things and letting my mind play out things that may have never existed.  Hopefully this story is short, but clear and to the point. 

I have been happily married for 7 years with my wonderful wife (36) and mother to our only child.  We have our ups and downs as most couples go through.  I however have one issue that keeps arising in my mind.  About 8-9 years ago, my wife used to work at a restaurant as a waitress and while there made friends with most of the staff.  I remember one night she went out with her coworkers to her supervisor's (male) birthday and came home about 2/3 AM after a night of drinking at a club/bar.  I remember that night, she did not answer my calls when I was checking to make sure she was safe and okay.  She did come home tired after being up late and drinking.  We ended up going to bed when I noticed he texted her after to make sure she made it home safe.  The next morning when we woke up she asked me if I felt like I have experienced enough women in my life and if I needed to seek out someone to fulfill other sexual experiences so I would not doubts in our relationship (we were planning to get married).  I told her I have and she was the only person I wanted to move forward with for the remainder of my life.  That was basically it to that question.  It was not until later when I started having doubts in my mind to what happened that evening.  That was an odd question I felt to ask me.  Sometime later, I asked her why she asked me that question and her response was that night that her co workers were messing/teasing with her about me not having enough experiences before going into a marriage (I am three years younger than my wife and she has been married before).  She said she felt like she needed to make sure that I did not need to seek that out others before going into a marriage together.  We had this conversation again later on (maybe a week later) and that she basically provided me the same answer.  This time, I did ask her if anything happened with her supervisor that night and she said no but did admit that he tried to kiss her which she declined.  

So 8-9 years down the road, this particular topic keeps coming to mind.  Throughout our time together, I would bring this topic up, but it is always the same answer and that she has assured me many times nothing happened (she is at the point where she now gets upset when I bring it up).  There are just a few things that get me: why were you so out late on a weekday, why the late text by her supervisor, and why the odd question in the morning?  I really would like to reach out to this person and ask him if anything happened between him and my wife (girlfriend at that time).  I am just looking to get advice in this situation about reaching out to her old supervisor and hoping to get some clarity to this situation.  I know this happened so long ago and it seems really crazy to hold onto, but I am trying to find ways to rid myself of these thoughts and looking for a way to clear my mind from running wild thoughts. 

[ExpatInItaly]

Do you happen to suffer from anxiety in general?

Ruminating about something to this degree that happened so many years ago suggests there's something more eating at you. Have you had any subsequent trust issues with your wife? How is your relationship these days? 

And yes, I think contacting this supervisor so many years after the fact is going to make you look nuts. 

[KenBen]

Thank you for your response @ExpatInItaly, 

Funny thing that you brought up was anxiety.  I do actually have a mild case of anxiety that seems to come and go from time to time.  When these bouts of anxiety take over, my mind does race and I start to worry about something that may not actually be an issue.  This may be in my marriage, career, or any other things that I can cling on. 

I do actually have trust issues when my wife drinks.  Luckily, she has not had alcohol for 6+ years now.  My wife becomes a totally different person when she drinks and becomes very flirtatious with other men based on things I saw early on in our relationship.  We talked about that during our early years together and things got better.  My wife told me during her younger years, she did go home with men she met from bars\parties but it was not a common thing.  I was not there that evening and basically my mind races about what could have occurred that she was not honest to me about (ashamed, not to lose me).  Again, it is just speculation based on the questions\concerns I had in my post.

I know it sounded ridiculous to question reaching out to her old supervisor, but those are some of the places I go when I am desperate for answers. 

Again, thank you for your reply.

[ExpatInItaly]

Has something happened recently that may have triggered your current distress over this?

For the sake of untangling some of your thoughts, let's say for a moment you did find out something happened between them on the night in question. A kiss, maybe more. What would you then do with that information? You're married with a child together now, so I am not sure what your recourse here would look like. 

And let's look at the other side: let's imagine you did reach out to this other guy, and he says nothing happened. Do you feel you would actually be able to let it go, or do you think you'd have just as much trouble believing him as you have believing your wife? I'm not sure you would feel as settled as you hope, given that you inherently have no reason to trust this person and every reason to trust your wife - and you still don't totally trust her version, either. 

My sense is that you have greater anxiety about the state of things between you and your wife and this nebulous event from nearly a decade ago is what you've subconsciously ascribed that anxiety to. How has your marriage been going lately? Does your wife know you still ruminate over this?

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Hi KenBen. I get the sense that this is more about feeling you lack control in some area(s) in your life than about infidelity. Have you researched anxiety and anxiety disorders? Have you explored what might be the underlying cause of your anxiety (such as other suppressed emotions)? Have you ever discussed any of this with a metal health professional who can help pinpoint the cause of your anxiety? It might be something unexpected. For example, I realized after a therapy session that my anxiety was rooted in my parents' demand on my performance as a child. Only top performance was accepted while anything less invited their scorn (instead of the unconditional love I needed). That realization greatly reduced my anxious reactions to stressful situations. You might benefit in a similar way by looking at it from such an angle. 

[schlumpy]

At the time, did you do any investigative work to verify her story? There were many people at the party to talk to if you wanted.

I don't want to feed your fantasy but if I was in your shoes I also might be where you are especially if I didn't do anything to allay my fears at the time it happened.

Her admitting that her boss tried to kiss her but she declined is a common red flag because many cheaters will minimize their encounters. It may have a been a cover story just in case one her fellow workers spilled the beans.

I think it's a bit too late now to act on this. Your only recourse is a polygraph which isn't reknown for it's accuracy. Who knows how this much time would affect the outcome. I wouldn't want my marriage hanging in the balance over this type of evidence.

Has something happened recently that is stirring these feelings back up? Are you having a gut feeling about something?

[d0nnivain]

You need to let it go.  You have been married for 7 years.  Fact is if you had Qs, you should have gotten satisfaction regarding your doubts BEFORE you married.  Now you have to accept that she chose you & put this long ago night in the past forever. 

As for the weeknight thing, it's the restaurant business.  She was a waitress.  In hospitality, you go out on weeknights because you can't go out on weekends.  In hospitality, everybody drinks too much & there is a lot of promiscuity.   You were both probably young & impressionable back then.  Her co-workers probably got in her head, making her insecure that you would develop GiGs & want to stray because you didn't sow enough wild oats when you were younger & had the chance before settling down with her.  The boss probably made a few passes at her but if she said she shot him down, you need to believe her, especially after all these years.  She's short with you now about the subject not because she's guilty but because you are relentless & it's annoying after all this time.  She is sick of the fact that you can't trust her & get past this.  

If she's been a good wife all these years celebrate that & stop chipping away at your marriage.  If you don't it will fail.  That will be your fault.  It will have nothing to do with whatever happened in the past & everything to do with your behavior in the present.  

[BaileyB]

9 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

If she's been a good wife all these years celebrate that & stop chipping away at your marriage.  If you don't it will fail. 

Either you trust your wife, or you don’t. Right now, your anxiety is causing you to perseverate on a specific event. If you trust your wife, if she has been a good wife and she has never given you any other reason to doubt her, then you need to find a way to deal with your anxiety. If you don’t, it will chip away at your relationship and resentment will build - it has already started, because she gets annoyed and upset when you bring it up.

I would be pretty frustrated if my husband continued to bring up something that happened years prior in our relationship - particularly when she says nothing happened. You must find a way to let this go...

[usa1ah]

The time to have asked the question was when it happened. You have every right to wonder what happened that night. It is a scenario that has played out many times with a partner cheating. The red flag is the fact that she never answered her phone that night. If she did cheat, she will never tell you. 
 

It might not have been her supervisor that she did something with. It could have been anyone at the party. 
 

Her reason for asking the question sounds like bs. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by usa1ah

[d0nnivain]

20 minutes ago, usa1ah said:

The red flag is the fact that she never answered her phone that night. 

I'm not glued to my phone. Out with friends in a loud bar my phone would be in my purse.  I would not give it a 2nd thought nor would I hear it ring or feel it vibrate.  I see no red flag associated with the fact that she didn't answer.  She was focused on the people was with & that focus could very well have been rated PG (due to the drinking not being a kid friendly activity, not because she was cheating).

If the GF never answered when out with the manager, that would be a problem.  It would really be a problem if she was still interacting this guy but from what the OP said, there is no on-going connection & it was 7+ years ago.  

[preraph]

Number 1, people party late, and if it's your employment, you go with the flow.  

If anything at all happened then, it was before she married you anyway.  I think it's nice she was concerned about whether you had explored enough to be satisfied in marriage, because a whole lot of especially men are not content in marriage and some women.  

 

I think you have anxiety and insecurity to hang onto this and you should realize you've had a good marriage here for several years and that if she hadn't wanted to be with you, she'd not have married you.  Obviously, she chose you above all others and you have been happy but for your insecurity.  It was before you were married, so you need to let it go.  Stop bringing it up.  That's crazy and I can see why she would be getting mad about it at this point, because she's invested all these years in making a happy home for you and this is the thanks she gets.  

[usa1ah]

27 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

I'm not glued to my phone. Out with friends in a loud bar my phone would be in my purse.  I would not give it a 2nd thought nor would I hear it ring or feel it vibrate.  I see no red flag associated with the fact that she didn't answer.  She was focused on the people was with & that focus could very well have been rated PG (due to the drinking not being a kid friendly activity, not because she was cheating).

If the GF never answered when out with the manager, that would be a problem.  It would really be a problem if she was still interacting this guy but from what the OP said, there is no on-going connection & it was 7+ years ago.  

I do understand this. Never the less, most partners do not answer there phone during the act of cheating. This is a red flag, especially with the way she gets when drunk. It was bad enough that she has stopped drinking all together. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by usa1ah

[usa1ah]

There is an older thread on here where the wife started getting flirty/aroused when she was drinking. She ended up drinking and cheating with her intern. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by usa1ah

[d0nnivain]

4 minutes ago, usa1ah said:

 It is bad enough that she has stopped drinking all together. 

As people mature they party less.  She is no longer a young waitress.  She's a mom.  That alone could explain her decision to stop drinking.  Alcohol problem does not equal ethical problem.  

I see no present tense behavior that is questionable, other than the OPs fixation on ancient history.  If she has a history of cheating with the intern then that is a different story.  Remember my advice was that if the ONLY problem was the night 7+ years ago, that's nothing.  If there is current bad behavior then perhaps it is a pattern & the OP should not trust her.  You change the facts, you change the conclusion.  

[usa1ah]

31 minutes ago, d0nnivain said:

I'm not glued to my phone. Out with friends in a loud bar my phone would be in my purse.  I would not give it a 2nd thought nor would I hear it ring or feel it vibrate.  I see no red flag associated with the fact that she didn't answer.  She was focused on the people was with & that focus could very well have been rated PG (due to the drinking not being a kid friendly activity, not because she was cheating).

If the GF never answered when out with the manager, that would be a problem.  It would really be a problem if she was still interacting this guy but from what the OP said, there is no on-going connection & it was 7+ years ago.  

It was the manager’s bday party and she came home drunk. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by usa1ah

[usa1ah]

Just now, d0nnivain said:

As people mature they party less.  She is no longer a young waitress.  She's a mom.  That alone could explain her decision to stop drinking.  Alcohol problem does not equal ethical problem.  

I see no present tense behavior that is questionable, other than the OPs fixation on ancient history.  If she has a history of cheating with the intern then that is a different story.  Remember my advice was that if the ONLY problem was the night 7+ years ago, that's nothing.  If there is current bad behavior then perhaps it is a pattern & the OP should not trust her.  You change the facts, you change the conclusion.  

Op says that they had discussed the drink issue and his concerns about it. 

[preraph]

Not answering the phone during what was probably a loud party is not a red flag. 

[usa1ah]

4 minutes ago, preraph said:

Not answering the phone during what was probably a loud party is not a red flag. 

We will have to disagree. Who knows how loud it was. She talked about them teasing her that night because of how inexperienced OP was. So at some point they were just sitting around talking. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by usa1ah

[preraph]

Not everyone is going to answer the phone when they are supposed to be socializing with friends or work people.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, usa1ah said:

There is an older thread on here where the wife started getting flirty when she was drinking. 

Alcohol causes many people to become more outgoing, less inhibited, and yes - sometimes flirty. It does not mean that she cheated. 

And no, I would not always answer the phone if I’m out with friends. If it’s late, I would probably make more effort to answer because I wouldn’t want my partner to worry... But, depending on who I was talking with, what was happening at that moment, the noise level in the room, and whether I even heard the phone ring at all (maybe it’s in my purse)... I may not always answer the call. If I’m engaged in a conversation/visiting with a friend, that person will have my attention. My partner can wait.

Edited June 3, 2020 by BaileyB

[Poutrew]

My point of concern would be Why are you discussing me at your bosses birthday party? It is obvious that she shared a lot of information about the OP - why would she be talking about the OPs lack of sexual experience compared to hers, to her boss?  Seems to me that this is NOT the information you would share with your business associates. Poor boundaries leads to all sorts of problems... and as we all know, saying the boss only tried to kiss her, which she rebuffed... is the mother of all lies.  Her asking that question the next morning, sure sounded like a cheating wife trying to get the husband to cheat as well so they will both be equally matched once again. If it were me I would conclude that the girlfriend probably gave the boss a 'special' birthday gift earlier that day and is now feeling guilty over it.

[preraph]

Um, because he kept calling to check up on her, and that tends to illicit concern from friends and others  since controlling like that is often a sign of abuse.  

[Ellener]

If you are happily married it does not matter what was said 8 or 9 years ago at a drunken work do.

Stop obsessing and enjoy your life and marriage and family.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Kenben, I guess you have a dilemma and the reasons for it, to my mind seem genuine. The reason I say this is that this is your marriage and only you know your wife as well as can be. Also, if you have had a gut feel about something no one can take that away from you. It is easy for others to tell you what to do or not to do. It does not affect them directly and if there are any adverse consequences if you act on their advise, you will be left suffering these while it will not tickle them in the least. The fact is that everyone else here, myself included, can never feel what you are feeling and know what you know. Our knowledge of your situation is limited by the information that you have shared with us. Anything else that we base our advice on is the result of our assumptions about you and your wife.

Having said this I want to base what I am about to say on the facts that you have given us here, limited as they are. You have said your wife was married before. You have also stated that she had occasionally gone home with men after having had drinks at a bar/club. At the time you were dating your wife and were in a live in relationship with her she was working as a waitress in a restaurant. You also stated that when she had had some drinks she would become flirty with the men who were at a party she was attending. You also said she had been off drinks for the last six and a half years probably because she was pregnant with your child. Lastly you said that she attended this birthday party for her then supervisor, had drinks, stayed out late and did not respond to your phone calls. She finally came home at 2/3 in the morning and a little later her supervisor sent her a text asking if she was home safe. Further, you said that the next morning she asked you whether you hah had enough sexual experiences before the two of you got married so that you would  not feel you missed out on something like that once you settled into a marital relationship at a later point of time. You told your wife that you had your fill of sexual experiences and now you wanted to settle down with only her and had no desire for anyone else. Later when you queried her about this question because it seemed off to you, she told you that her work mates were messing/ teasing her about whether you were experienced enough to be married( to her?). 

My own opinion is that firstly, your wife was much more sexually experienced before marriage than you were. She was also possessed of a much higher libido than you, considering that she was able to take men home from bars/dance clubs in her younger days(wild days?). That fact taken together with the fact that her behaviour undergoes a significant change after drinking and she becomes very uninhibited and flirty with men leads me to believe she had s bit of a promiscuous streak in her which was normally formant, but was unleashed once she had ward up with enough drink in her. Also, given the fact that she had already been married once before she met you indicates that sexually, at least, she was miles ahead of you. You have not said anything as to why her previous marriage ended. Also what was her age and that of her first husband when they married and how long did the marriage last? Answers to these questions will shed some light on her past and give van inkling about her persona and whether infidelity was involved in the dissolution of her first marriage. If what I have said above holds true then it is very likely she was involved inappropriately with her supervisor on his birthday SD some have suggested. The extenuating factor is that the two of you were not married but by the same token the two of you were in a committed relationship and were living together as a couple. As such, if she had inappropriate relations with her supervisor, she had, in effect, cheated on you. The curious question she asked you the next day only supports this hypothesis.

I have to ask you as to under what circumstances you met your wife and how long did you date her? Also what convinced you that she was the woman for you, considering the fact that she is three years older than you and has baggage from the past. In addition to the foregoing I would want to know what kind of employment do you have and is your wife now working and if so, what is her line of work?

Given that all of the above is true, and there is no guarantee that is a fact, and also given the fact that you have been married for seven years in what, according to you has been a reasonably good marriage and also assuming that your wife has been faithful to you during your marriage and been sober, thereby eliminating her proclivity to be promiscuous/ flirty with other men, it is up to you to weigh the pros and cons of remaining married to her or divorcing her for something that she did eight or nine years ago. Of course there I'd the matter of her not having been upfront with you about her shenanigans, which as you yourself pointed out may have been because she was fearful that you would reject her( which was quite likely had you known these facts at the time). She may have thought that with the passage of time things would settle down and would fade into the background. This is the reason that when you bring up the question of whether she did anything with her supervisor or not, she gets annoyed. 

I would say the ball is in your court now. What you decide now will direct the course of your life into the future. Think Cooley about the pros and cons I mentioned and make a judicious choice. Warm wishes.

[oldlion]

Nine years and you are still obsessing over something that happened even before you were married. Every time you ask her about this you push her a little further away. Something happened in my marriage years and years ago. I had my suspicions but I never have ask and never intend to. We have been happily married for longer than you have been alive. Why would I want to ruin something good with questions that would cause friction in my marriage. You keep up with the obsession and you may get the chance to get sexual experience with other women because your wife just may leave. I do wish you well.