Combating Racism in America

[Emilie Jolie]

6 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

I think the best way to combat racism would be if we all stopped separating people into groups. 

I think that's true. That's why you need a leader who will encourage unity; a divisive, power-hungry leader will ensure all groups remain separate, so all groups can fight each other while Rome burns and the system stays as is, for the benefit of the few..

Edited June 2, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[schlumpy]

18 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I've just posted a link to a youtube video called Life of Privilege explained in $100 bill race that may be delayed due to moderation. It was quite telling. I don't think many people actually understand what 'privilege actually means, and maybe associate it with a life of luxury and handouts or something. 

I have admit Jolie that I am part of that group. I thought it was about money. I don't see your link so I'll drop in at Youtube and try and find it myself.

[pepperbird]

1 minute ago, Emilie Jolie said:

Racism isn't an 'individual' problem, and institutional racism is exactly that: telling African Americans what they do or do not need.

I'm not African American- hell, I'm not even American- but I can recognize ablesim when I see it, and it sounds like a lot of social programming etc. has taken that tack. Instead of asking people what they need, it's telling them, and in effect, it treats the people it's supposed to help like they are children, not capable of knowing what they need.

I don't like to ask any one person to represent an entire race, but what is holding African Americans back?



 

[lana-banana]

1 minute ago, sothereiwas said:

Well let's see how my life was privileged.

• When my dad had to quit school and go to work logging (with horses) at the age of 14 so the family would have a little more food, was that him showing his white privilege?
• When dad joined the US Marines at the youngest age he could, to make more room and resources available to his siblings, was he showing his white privilege?
• When he came back from serving overseas and immediately had to reenter the workforce as a logger, was that an example of showing his white privilege?
• When he got married and worked long days at a miserable and dangerous job so he could feed us, was that showing his white privilege?
• When, through all this, grandpa and dad never took a dime from government assistance, was that showing their white privilege?
• When I had to go to trade school instead of university for financial reasons showing my white privilege?
• Was my dad marrying my mom before she got pregnant showing their white privilege?

I have not come from a life or family of privilege. It's a little offensive when you claim I did. 

The fact that you do not understand how very radically different your life would have been as a person of color is basically white privilege personified. Hard work or individual suffering has absolutely nothing to do with white privilege. You are born with it. That's the entire point.

[Gr8fuln2020]

6 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

I think the best way to combat racism would be if we all stopped separating people into groups. If you want justice, work towards justice, not just justice for one race, especially when you base your ideals on complete falsehoods. 

I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon though, if at all. Too many people I think enjoy saying they are oppressed. That's a lot easier than taking responsibility for your own life. 

You really think this about one race?!?!?! Enlighten us about these 'falsehoods.' 

Dude, you live in a country where taking responsibility of your own life was made difficult. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... do you think everyone had and has that same opportunity. 

But, please, enlighten me on what you think are falsehoods. 

[Gr8fuln2020]

4 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Well let's see how my life was privileged.

• When my dad had to quit school and go to work logging (with horses) at the age of 14 so the family would have a little more food, was that him showing his white privilege?
• When dad joined the US Marines at the youngest age he could, to make more room and resources available to his siblings, was he showing his white privilege?
• When he came back from serving overseas and immediately had to reenter the workforce as a logger, was that an example of showing his white privilege?
• When he got married and worked long days at a miserable and dangerous job so he could feed us, was that showing his white privilege?
• When, through all this, grandpa and dad never took a dime from government assistance, was that showing their white privilege?
• When I had to go to trade school instead of university for financial reasons showing my white privilege?
• Was my dad marrying my mom before she got pregnant showing their white privilege?

I have not come from a life or family of privilege. It's a little offensive when you claim I did. 

Yup. Entirely missing the point. Your family were never in a system that actively denied them the right the vote, the right to equal education, the specter of social compartmentalization, overt discrimination, etc....

Your family was not privileged in the contemporary sense. But compared to some other people in this country, they had a lot more going for them...or a lot less preventing them...

[Ellener]

 

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

Maybe that's part of the problem? People not actually taking the time to really listen to one another and assuming they know what's in their heart and mind?

absolutely. But people don't always listen or respond do they. That's why we're where we're at this week. That's why there was so little comment about the number of peaceful protestors arrested during last year's Black Lives Matter rallies. 

Now black communities have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic.

It was very difficult for me personally to read and learn about 'white privilege' and acknowledge that 

“There may be no more consequential White privilege than life itself. White lives matter to the tune of 3.5 additional years over Black lives in the United States, which is just the most glaring of a host of health disparities, starting from infancy, where Black infants die at twice the rate of White infants.” ( Kendi )

 

 

 

[pepperbird]

Just now, sothereiwas said:

If true, this means the term "white privilege" is worthless. More white people live in poverty than any other demographic in America. More bad things happen to white people than any other demographic in America. Calling them all privileged is just silly. 

I could be wrong, but it was explained like this to me.
Think of everyone as being in a race. Not everyone gets to start at the same place, and some have to carry a rucksack filled with 100 pounds of weight while some carry ones filled with feathers. All in the same race, all epxected to reach the same finish line.

[lana-banana]

3 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

If true, this means the term "white privilege" is worthless. More white people live in poverty than any other demographic in America. More bad things happen to white people than any other demographic in America. Calling them all privileged is just silly. It's also racist. 

You really and truly don't understand, and don't want to understand, what racism and privilege actually means. I could suggest you read Ibram Kendi or Ta-Nehisi Coates or Michelle Williams but of course you won't---you aren't interested in learning. You aren't interested in having a discussion. You just don't acknowledge that racism exists. 

"My life was hard, but it wouldn't have been harder if I was black" is maybe the dumbest and ahistorical take I've ever heard.

[lana-banana]

1 minute ago, pepperbird said:

I could be wrong, but it was explained like this to me.
Think of everyone as being in a race. Not everyone gets to start at the same place, and some have to carry a rucksack filled with 100 pounds of weight while some carry ones filled with feathers. All in the same race, all epxected to reach the same finish line.

This is actually a pretty solid analogy. 

If you are interested in learning more, there are some fantastic books on race in America and how systemic, institutionalized racism was created and perpetuated:

The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness

Slavery By Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to WWII

Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution

Between the World and Me

 

[Gr8fuln2020]

7 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

I don't like to ask any one person to represent an entire race, but what is holding African Americans back?
 

Man, do I have he time to share with you the hundreds of years of racism of this country.  Both overt and subtle, but systematic... phew. By the way, I am a naturalized American citizen of colour, born in Asia, grew up in Europe...and educated in an international school before coming to the states for my senior year in high school. Holy crap! What a shock comparing my understanding of American history with those of American kids educated here. It was eye-opening an the primary impetus for me to go even deeper into American history. 

If you really care, at all, research the history of this country. But, let me give you an easy assignment. Read the Constitution of the USA and ask yourself if there is anything woefully amiss regarding its message and what form of country resulted from its conception....have fun. I have said this before. American history, all of it, the heart of it, is fascinating, to say the least. 

[Ellener]

This is how the Critical Race Theory movement defined it:

“Racism is different from racial prejudice, hatred, or discrimination. Racism involves one group having the power to carry out systematic discrimination through the institutional policies and practices of the society and by shaping the cultural beliefs and values that support those racist policies and practices.”

That is what 'white privilege' is about in the US:  examining the inherent power advantages in any society where there there is obvious inequality or injustice.

 

[schlumpy]

Ok Jolie, I watched it and it's a nice thought exercise. The questions he asked had to do with the individual choices of people.

No ones keeping black fathers from staying with their family. I do not know why this happens with such frequency in the Black community but I have to pin it on the individual and not some manipulation of unseen hands under the table. My father died at the age of 42 so the last three of my siblings did grow up without a father. My sister always complains that she can't remember our dad and is always trying to pick my brain for some type of connection.

My generation grew up without a cell phone. I doubt it had much of an effect on any of us. I still don't have real cell phone since I never progressed past a flip phone.

Do you consider the Catholic system private schooling? I don't know how may black kids attend Catholic Schools. Maybe more now then used to with vouchers being available to parents to get their children out of the public school system. The same public school which has accepted every progressive idea for the last forty years. You would think the outcome would have been different wouldn't you? We certainly were promised it would be. I usually think of boarding school where someone is sent away, almost like a college campus. That takes a lot of money.

I never had private tutors growing up and neither did anyone I know unless you count my parents. That consisted of my dad yelling at me to study and my mom looking bewildered because she didn't finish high school. Pretty common back then.

I did graduate college but I spent three years in the military to attain that privilege. I was the only one out my family to do so.

There were a few times growing up where my mother had to get inventive with dinner but I ate what was on table. We certainly couldn't afford to eat out all the time like everyone does now-a-days.

I did marry young which is today considered a mistake but 47 years later we are still tolerating each other's presence.

It's been quite a ride but no where have I ever encountered personal privilege. The only privilege I can allow is that I was born in a western country. If I wanted something. I had to make it happen or it didn't. It was on me. 

I liked the exercise because it makes people think but my experience says they are wrong. I don't accept the scripted conclusion. Ask a different series questions and the black guys are out in front. I get the concept of what they are trying to illustrate but their approach is simplistic. Just my opinion.

Thanks for the link.

Edited June 2, 2020 by schlumpy

[pepperbird]

23 minutes ago, Ellener said:

This is how the Critical Race Theory movement defined it:

“Racism is different from racial prejudice, hatred, or discrimination. Racism involves one group having the power to carry out systematic discrimination through the institutional policies and practices of the society and by shaping the cultural beliefs and values that support those racist policies and practices.”

That is what 'white privilege' is about in the US:  examining the inherent power advantages in any society where there there is obvious inequality or injustice.

 

I know no one wants to her this, but racism goes both ways, It is not restricted to one race.
don't believe me? let me ask you this.
if it had been a white person who had been asphyxiated by a cop, would there have been huge protests? Would anyone care? Would African Americans have taken to the streets to speak out against police violence against white people?

 "Sadly, the trend of fatal police shootings in the United States seems to only be increasing, with a total 228 civilians having been shot, 31 of whom were Black, as of March 30, 2020. " (https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/)

where were the  protesters then?

[sothereiwas]

17 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

The only privilege I can allow is that I was born in a western country.

Now that, sir, is certainly real. Every single person living in America should reflect on this until they understand it at an instinctive level. 

[Miss Spider]

55 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

I could be wrong, but it was explained like this to me.
Think of everyone as being in a race. Not everyone gets to start at the same place, and some have to carry a rucksack filled with 100 pounds of weight while some carry ones filled with feathers. All in the same race, all epxected to reach the same finish line.

haha k I'm back w one more question about this. I am a white/asian woman and never personally experienced any racism towards me, except once where I spent time in a predominately black school for a semester while my parents were relocating. Some of the black kids at this school were a bit mean to me and put gum in my hair/bullied me specifically because of my race. BUT I DO NOT CONSIDER THIS TO BE OPPRESSION in any way. I also do not believe that the black kids who were racist towards me necessarily is the same thing as the oppression/racism black people feel in America. I've never been black. Also, they were only children and seeing the differences between us.

My question is : Could someone please explain how asian Americans fit into the privilege/oppression model, since within particular groups like Japanese and Korean, they fair better in many ways than even white people. For example, they are accepted into more elite universities, suffer from less disease, less illegitmacy/more "nuclear" family models, less likely to commit crime, lower poverty,  more "upward mobility" (they were oppressed/didnt not start with wealth ), and less likely to victimized by law enforcement per capita than white people *

 

* Please correct me if any of this is inaccurate

Edited June 2, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[schlumpy]

17 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said:

But thatt doesn't address all the other ways that some Asian American groups have faired better than whites. 

I have two Asian friends. One is Korean and the other is Cambodian.

My Korean buddy's work ethic was greater then my own. Our job was truly his life. He had two kids and he was on them constantly about good grades and school. His daughter today has PHD in Pharmacology and is married to an FBI agent. I didn't know you could get a PhD in pharmacology. Very smart girl.

His son is an Electrical engineer and lives out in California.

My Cambodian friends kids didn't do as well. They were more typical American teenagers consumed with the moment and no idea what they wanted to do.

In my humble opinion, it's family.

Edited June 2, 2020 by schlumpy

[Ellener]

Only love cures hate, but the opposite of hate is often indifference. 

It takes a tremendous amount of grace to simply hear what other people feel about their life and experience, I know that.

I read this expression of pain today:

Roxane Gay: "Eventually, doctors will find a coronavirus vaccine, but black people will continue to wait, despite the futility of hope, for a cure for racism. We will live with the knowledge that a hashtag is not a vaccine for white supremacy. We live with the knowledge that, still, no one is coming to save us. The rest of the world yearns to get back to normal. For black people, normal is the very thing from which we yearn to be free."

*

The question to ask, if I am going to combat racism in America is of myself- what have I done to combat racism? and answer, the little I can I will do.

 

 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, sothereiwas said:

If true, this means the term "white privilege" is worthless. More white people live in poverty than any other demographic in America. More bad things happen to white people than any other demographic in America. Calling them all privileged is just silly. It's also racist. 

I think the point is none of the things you mentioned have to do with race. Most people have hardships of some sort, but on top of the regular hardships that everybody faces, visible minorities also have the burdens associated with being a visible minority. 
 

Also I think this conversation would benefit from people using numbers the same way. Saying there are more poor white people in the US than black people is meaningless when white people make up the vast majority of the US population. If you’re comparing groups, you need to talk of percentages within that group. 
 

 

[Gr8fuln2020]

49 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

If the USA is run by a huge system of white supremacy and racism against others, why are Asian Americans and Indian Americans more successful than white Americans? 

Opportunity and culture...if you think racism is something applied equally, you are wrong. Do some historical research. Even these groups have suffered from racism. Of course, to say Asian Americans, well that is a huge cultural pool and depending on what Asian group you come from, the level of success differs. As for Indian, as in from SE Asia, not native Americans as some Americans use the term, opportunity and culture. Especially for Indian migration to the USA, it is a relatively newer migration. And consider this....not all, of course, for many of the newer immigrants, who do you thinks are more likely to be able to come to the USA? 

[Gr8fuln2020]

4 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I have two Asian friends. One is Korean and the other is Cambodian.

My Korean buddy's work ethic was greater then my own. Our job was truly his life. He had two kids and he was on them constantly about good grades and school. His daughter today has PHD in Pharmacology and is married to an FBI agent. I didn't know you could get a PhD in pharmacology. Very smart girl.

His son is an Electrical engineer and lives out in California.

My Cambodian friends kids didn't do as well. They were more typical American teenagers consumed with the moment and no idea what they wanted to do.

In my humble opinion, it's family.

Family and culture. What I mean by culture is if American culture is adopted in lieu of their own traditional culture, the kids are more or less concerned about progress and education. But these nuances occur within each group as well. 

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

visible minorities also have the burdens associated with being a visible minority. 

I'll need something real and tangible besides "some people were mean". 

[Gr8fuln2020]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I think the point is none of the things you mentioned have to do with race. Most people have hardships of some sort, but on top of the regular hardships that everybody faces, visible minorities also have the burdens associated with being a visible minority. 

Also I think this conversation would benefit from people using numbers the same way. Saying there are more poor white people in the US than black people is meaningless when white people make up the vast majority of the US population. If you’re comparing groups, you need to talk of percentages within that group. 
 

Someone mentioned more white people being killed by police than blacks. It was clearly a way to undermine the issues of today, but I wondered if he actually thought about what he wrote beyond his own attempt to detract from violence against African Americans. 

African Americans are  more likely to be killed by police. Shoot, in the justice system, people of colour are more likely to be so many things than other groups that it is statistically impossible to argue that the justice system is not impartial and not biased in so many ways. But, this guy was right. More white people are killed by cops. Not nearly as many unarmed, but not insignificant. My question would have been, so why don't we hear about them? Good question I would have said...is it the media? Could be. But the media is not present for every incident that occurs. Actually rarely are...but people at the scenes are. Why don't we see white people or any people showing white people killed or shot while unarmed...fascinating study on that too. Man, if there is one thing I can thank Trump for is the sh#t he has openly thrust into our faces to deal with openly. SO much more understanding of history and government since he arrived. 

[Zona]

2 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Shoot, in the justice system, people of colour are more likely to be so many things than other groups that it is statistically impossible to argue that the justice system is not impartial and not biased in so many ways. 

What do you of Trump's prison reform?

[Weezy1973]

4 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

I'll need something real and tangible besides "some people were mean". 

My belief is that the majority of disproportionate suffering that the black population endures is a product of historic racism. Generation after generation of a whole group of people being dehumanized. A few laws changing in the 60s isn’t a magic pill that eliminates all that pain.

There is no greater burden to carry than the burden of feeling worthless. And that’s the message the black community has had thrown at them through a lot of American history. Have things changed - sure. 
 

Kids being raised by parents that feel like they’re worthless will almost always result in a dysfunctional upbringing. Which leads to all sorts of bad outcomes. Makes sense that feelings of worthlessness is felt disproportionately by the black population because that was literally how they were seen by white people historically. Again things are better now, and people are shamed for being racist, and white supremacy is certainly the exception rather than the rule. But change happens slowly and over generations. You can’t magically fix a dysfunctional upbringing.