Combating Racism in America

[Gr8fuln2020]

5 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I use FBI statistics to answer those questions. Watching local news is too dependent on the people in charge of the station determining what I see.

I think what I'm getting at with my posts regarding this subject is not as clear as it could be. I have always been interested in knowing why more white people are not complaining about police brutality? Where are all the videos of these people? If people, all people, were more outraged, police brutality would not be such an issue. 

I also feel that some communities have TOO much respect for authority and tend not to question it. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020

[Weezy1973]

2 hours ago, schlumpy said:

I can't discount the historical effect you are describing. I would argue that when you take the ignorance of most people in regard to historical context, I don't see how "historical racism" has a overwhelming effect on todays society. We have people in college who can't tell you anything about the civil war.

I’m not sure what your point is here. But I’ll try to draw a straight line about just one aspect, that being the disproportionate percentage of the black population that are poor compared to whites.

 

I stated before that kids born into poor families learn how to be poor and generally grow up to be poor adults. It’s a cycle. So you can draw a line pretty easily from poor adults now back to slavery (with a long middle period of segregation, lynchings, etc.). Just because slavery and segregation no longer exists, doesn’t mean the impacts of history aren’t still being felt today. 

[preraph]

200 years ago just about everyone in America was poor compared to today when maybe a third if that much since we brought them up with welfare money. The fact that a lot of people have been successful regardless of how poor their parents were is proof enough that people can do that in America if they live right and don't get themselves into trouble and work hard. 

 

I just googled poverty in the US for 2019 and half of the u.s. population in poverty is white. 2019 was a banner year for people being employed. 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by preraph

[Libby1]

1 hour ago, schlumpy said:

What do you think Libby? Do you see anything that could be applied to your own experience in life?

I'll have to sit down at my piano and put those words to music.

Sure.  I think most of us are idealists when we're younger, and it's important to try to hang on to some of those ideals.  I never saw myself as somebody who could change the world though.  I've pretty much always been of the view that you do your best within your immediate surroundings, work on yourself and try to make a difference there...and I can't say I've met with so much success in that area that I should be putting the world to rights.  I enjoy analysing things, but don't really have answers.

I've had the mixed blessing of careers in which I could help people...though I don't want to go into that too much.  My passion is conflict resolution...but again, small scale.  Generally I suppose I thought the '90s were great - like, I'm sure, lots of people thought the '60s were the best of times.  I thought we'd hit a great balance between the political left and right, and that while life wasn't always easy, justice and rationality would prevail if I fought hard enough for them to do so in my own little sphere...and generally they did, within that small sphere.   

Edited June 4, 2020 by Libby1

[Weezy1973]

42 minutes ago, preraph said:

 

I just googled poverty in the US for 2019 and half of the u.s. population in poverty is white. 2019 was a banner year for people being employed. 

 

Again, when comparing groups you have to use percentages within those groups and compare, not just take the overall population. When I google the same I come up with:

8% of white people are under the poverty line.

20% of black people are under the poverty line.

I’m asserting that the 12% difference is primarily due to historical racism.

When you check the other side of the spectrum (I.e wealth), the net worth of the average white family is 10x (!) the net worth of the average black family. 
 

And I’ll say these effects are just one portion of how racism has impacted the black population, definitely not the whole story.

 

[Piddy]

2 hours ago, schlumpy said:

Piddy what have you done or do you suggest be done to lessen the advantage of "white privilege?" I'm curious to what remedy to subscribe to aside for everyone feeling guilty.

schlumpy,

White privilege is something you get for free being born white.  It's something white people wouldn't notice because it's inherent in being born white.  The way to remedy it is to end systemic racism.  To actually achieve equality.  Not an easy thing to do since systemic / institutionalized racism has been embedded in our country for 400 years.

Quote

I can well sympathize with someone dying as can any mortal human being. If I was immortal perhaps you would have a point.

Good for you.  Empathy is needed to achieve equality.  The protesters are motivated by empathy.  Not all people have empathy for the inequality that we have in this country.  If more people had it we'd be a lot more further along in ending inequality.  But sadly we aren't.

Quote

Yes, I have been followed around a store many times as  a teenager. I know exactly how it feels. 

 

Then you can certainly empathize with being profiled as a suspect instead of a customer.  But you were profiled because of your age.  Imagine being profiled because of your skin color.  That's a hard one for people to empathize with being white.  So again, white privilege is something white people take for granted because it's just there in everyday life for them.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Piddy

[sothereiwas]

39 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’m asserting that the 12% difference is primarily due to historical racism.

In a 2007 study (data mining) it was discovered that 58% of the population whose previous generation were in the bottom quintile moved up at least one quintile. There have been several generations since 1964, and a lot since 1900. 

[Weezy1973]

18 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

In a 2007 study (data mining) it was discovered that 58% of the population whose previous generation were in the bottom quintile moved up at least one quintile. There have been several generations since 1964, and a lot since 1900. 

I’m not sure what you’re asserting here, but if it’s the fact that the poverty rate has dropped amongst black Americans from where it was in 1964 then agreed. But that’s not the point. It’s about the discrepancy between white and black Americans and what causes the difference. 
 

It seems really hard for some people to acknowledge that some people start life at a disadvantage compared to others due to racism. No one is accusing anybody of being a white supremacist, but just acknowledging that on average a black child born in America is at a disadvantage compared to a white child seems like a giant leap for people to make despite really non-controversial data showing it very plainly. 

[sothereiwas]

21 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’m not sure what you’re asserting here

I'm showing that over the decades, poor people have had a lot of opportunity to climb up the ladder, and that indeed, many have. In other results, 60% of those whose parents were in the toip quintile dropped out of the top. There is a lot of economic churn in America. Being a victim of racism over 50 years (2+ generations) ago isn't a strong excuse. 

On top of that, if we're trying to say that poverty causes criminal behavior, that seems not to be the case. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by sothereiwas

[sothereiwas]

22 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

It seems really hard for some people to acknowledge that some people start life at a disadvantage compared to others due to racism.

People start at a disadvantage or advantage - that's a fact. I think the dispute is to what degree racism has a hand in the 21st century. 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, sothereiwas said:

There is a lot of economic churn in America. Being a victim of racism over 50 years (2+ generations) ago isn't a strong excuse. 

On top of that, if we're trying to say that poverty causes criminal behavior, that seems not to be the case. 

So if  you don’t think the disparity in the percentage of black peoples below the poverty line vs white people below isn’t due to systemic / historical racism, what do you think the cause of that disparity is?

 

And I agree that poverty does not cause criminal behavior, although the two are correlated. 

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

what do you think the cause of that disparity is?

Probably multiple causes, and I don't have all the answers. The current welfare system promoting poor life choices is a likely candidate as a major cause. Single motherhood has exploded since we started funding single motherhood, which shouldn't be a shock when one thinks about it, but there it is. 

[Weezy1973]

5 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Probably multiple causes, and I don't have all the answers. The current welfare system promoting poor life choices is a likely candidate as a major cause. Single motherhood has exploded since we started funding single motherhood, which shouldn't be a shock when one thinks about it, but there it is. 

That doesn’t explain anything though. if those things are disproportionately affecting the black population vs the white population, why is that?

[sothereiwas]

Just now, Weezy1973 said:

That doesn’t explain anything though. if those things are disproportionately affecting the black population vs the white population, why is that?

A disproportionate number of poor blacks are urban, so I'd not be shocked if the huge difference in population density would drive different outcomes. I don't know. What I do know is, as another member wrote, white people don't wake up plotting our next racist scheme. We just don't. By and large, we wish everyone well, and get on with our day. The black business owners who watched his dreams burn down didn't lose their shops due to white racists torching him out. Their black neighbors burnt it down. Why? I don't know.  

People should stop doing that. 

[Weezy1973]

3 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

A disproportionate number of poor blacks are urban, so I'd not be shocked if the huge difference in population density would drive different outcomes. I don't know. What I do know is, as another member wrote, white people don't wake up plotting our next racist scheme. We just don't. By and large, we wish everyone well, and get on with our day.

Yes I think this is why these conversations are difficult. When people are not white supremacists and don’t even see race, they get defensive.

I’m not even saying that these discrepancies are due to white supremacists, even though that still exists. 
 

I’m saying that the discrepancies are largely due to historical racism, and the impacts of that over generations. You say you don’t have all the answers, but also argue pretty assuredly that racism isn’t a cause. Which to me contradicts your admitted ignorance. If you don’t know, then racism certainly could be the main factor that explains those discrepancies.

[sothereiwas]

13 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

You say you don’t have all the answers, but also argue pretty assuredly that racism isn’t a cause

We have 16 million white people in poverty, and no one is claiming racism is the cause, but when we have 9 million of a smaller group in poverty, racism. Not buying it. Immigrants come here dirt poor and 30 years later their kids have parents who run a business making a decent living, but some people BORN here can't pull it off. No, racism isn't a large cause of this disparity. Family culture and values, learned work ethic, and other non-racial factors are what drives this. 

We had a shot at turning it around with record high employment, but that's shot now. Maybe we can rebuild that. 

 

If someone claims the sky is blue because we live inside the eyeball of a blue-eyed god, I don't have to understand the mechanics of diffraction to call BS on that theory. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by sothereiwas
sp

[pepperbird]

On 6/3/2020 at 9:50 AM, Piddy said:

Yeah, many white people can't wrap their brain around white privilege.  It's something they receive everyday and don't realize it.  It's the norm for them and they can't empathize with what non whites may / do experience.

I guess I would equate it with someone having cancer.  People may try to empathize with the person, but can they actually empathize?  Can we really feel what it's like to walk in someone else's shoes?  

Can a white person when walking into a store actually feel what it's like to be looked at as a suspect first instead of a customer?  I doubt it ever crosses their mind.  400 hundred years of systematic racism is hard for whites to empathize with when they've never experienced it in their lives.  

try being a woman of any colour for a while.
 

[Weezy1973]

1 hour ago, sothereiwas said:

We have 16 million white people in poverty, and no one is claiming racism is the cause, but when we have 9 million of a smaller group in poverty, racism.

Again with the numbers. If you’re comparing groups, you need to compare percentages within those groups. So the numbers are:

8% of white people below the poverty line.

20% of black people below the poverty line.

Average white family net worth is 10x that of the average black family.

 

And if the reason for the discrepancy isn’t racism, then what is it?

 

Your guess at one point was that it was due to a concentration of black peoples in urban areas however numbers I found showed in 2015 16% of the rural population was poor vs 13% of the urban population. So that’s not it. 
 

If family values and culture are to blame, why the discrepancy in values between black people and white people born in America? 

[sothereiwas]

3 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

If family values and culture are to blame, why the discrepancy in values between black people and white people born in America? 

Well, 67% of black kids are in single parent homes as opposed to 24% of white kids, or 34% overall. That's just one difference. Is racism forcing that? Outcomes are mostly due to personal choices, and if people make bad choices, they will have bad outcomes. Blaming todays bad choice on great-grandpas bad treatment is perhaps tempting, but not persuasive. 

Honestly, I don't care what color my neighbors are, as long as they behave decently, pull their weight, and obey the more crucial laws. My grandpa wasn't treated real well either. 

 

Here's another, more blatant issue in America: Misandry in the criminal justice system. Fully 93% of the US prison population is male, when the population at large is close to 50% male. Clearly this is evidence that men are being treated unfairly by the system due to systematic institutional misandry. I demand reparations, as this is a historical issue that's been longstanding. 

Yeah, no. 

 

[Weezy1973]

@sothereiwas you’re still not getting it. If the root cause is single parent homes, why the discrepancy between black and white families? If it’s bad choices, why the discrepancy between black people and white people? The only thing that can explain that difference, is racism. 

[sothereiwas]

Just now, Weezy1973 said:

The only thing that can explain that difference, is racism. 

Again, 93% of prison inmates, men. Has to be institutional misandry. 

Or maybe it's more complicated. 

[Weezy1973]

37 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Again, 93% of prison inmates, men. Has to be institutional misandry. 

Or maybe it's more complicated. 

Or maybe it’s because men have 10x the amount of testosterone as women. Regardless this is a different topic. If you want to talk about why there are more black prison inmates than white prison inmates, and how that has nothing to do with racism, than be my guest.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Weezy1973

[sothereiwas]

5 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

Regardless this is a different topic.

Nice try. The same reasoning is applied to both sets of disparate outcomes, but in one case you dismiss it as a difference in behavior that's attributable to the individuals, and in the other you choose to attribute the outcome to external pressures applied to the collective group. Physician, heal thyself. You're saying more men are in prison because they commit more crime, but more black men are in prison per capita because racism. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by sothereiwas

[Weezy1973]

There’s a biological difference between men and women, but there isn’t one between black men and white men (besides the color of their skin). 
 

 

[sothereiwas]

Just now, Weezy1973 said:

There’s a biological difference between men and women, but there isn’t one between black men and white men (besides the color of their skin). 

Not so fast, swifty.

There are absolutely clinically significant hormonal differences across racial groups of men in America. A lot of research has gone into this as a cause, for instance, of differences in the rate of prostate cancer and other diseases. Or, maybe prostate cancer is also racist. I guess it's possible? 

If we really want to go down the rabbit hole, an argument can be made that individual behaviors boil down to complex physical processes and quantum chance within the individual, which, when combined with the environment, produces state changes that we perceive as behaviors. At a fundamental level, this eliminates the possibility of free will for anyone. We're all just cogs in the machine of the universe. However, it turns out that even if free will isn't real as such, it's a really useful way to model things, in much the same way that Newton's laws of motion are wrong, but can still be useful. So sure, everyone is influenced by everything that came before. However, at some point we choose to say each person should be accountable for the things they "choose" to do. Telling an entire group of people that you expect less of them because of something far in the past is probably not productive. 

I expect the same of everyone, no matter how their wave functions collapse or whatever.