Combating Racism in America

[Weezy1973]

12 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Telling an entire group of people that you expect less of them because of something far in the past is probably not productive. 

I expect the same of everyone, no matter how their wave functions collapse or whatever. 

I don’t have such a big ego to have expectations of others. Everybody is different and is trying their best to be happy. My opinion is of little to no importance in other peoples lives. 
 

That being said, if you can acknowledge that coming from a dysfunctional childhood increases the chances of having a dysfunctional adulthood, which creates dysfunction down generations, it’s a pretty straight line to slavery, racism, segregation etc. 

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

if you can acknowledge that coming from a dysfunctional childhood increases the chances of having a dysfunctional adulthood, which creates dysfunction down generations, it’s a pretty straight line to slavery, racism, segregation etc. 

Go back a bit and all humanity shares that. I'm not going to be partial to one group over another. 

[schlumpy]

18 hours ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Yeah, not clear exactly what you are saying. But I like your reference to the liberal bias. 

There is no news source that does not contain a bias. You just have to accept that. Your own political preferences are going to change your perception of the news source and push it to one side the political spectrum or the other.

If a political leader in office that you dislike is receiving favorable treatment out of a news source that you previously thought was fair, you may change your opinion about them wondering why you didn't notice how extreme there were before. They haven't changed - you have. Your dislike of the political leader is filtering your perception.

 

 

[TheStickisback]

9 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

Or maybe it’s because men have 10x the amount of testosterone as women. Regardless this is a different topic. If you want to talk about why there are more black prison inmates than white prison inmates, and how that has nothing to do with racism, than be my guest.

Actually women get lighter sentences for same crime so in some way misandry

[Emilie Jolie]

13 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

Well, 67% of black kids are in single parent homes as opposed to 24% of white kids

Why do you think that is?

I don't want to start an argument, only this genuine question: is it not possible that financial stressors due to lack of employment opportunities in high earning jobs, or lack of quality education, or lack of healthcare or the fact some parts of big cities are almost segregated by economic status where a majority Black/minority population lives in the poorest neighbourhoods (I know, I've been), etc play a big part in the % of single parenthood being higher among the Black community?

I'm no more a specialist on these issues than you, I'm just an interested third party, but my logical, non-racist brain tells me that intergenerational poverty, in part (not all) linked to institutional racism disproportionately affect African Americans. It seems successful African Americans from those poor backgrounds as a group - not as individuals - (not their fault, they didn't choose to be born into poverty) need to work twice as hard to get to the same place a White American kid would.

It's not all about 'hard work' and a 'can do' attitude. Those who say that have more often than not benefited from their parents' 'hard work' anyway, not just their own (if that, even).

 

[simpycurious]

Inequality is a horrible issue and sadly never seems to change for the better.  I was raised in a very privileged environment and saw first how others who were deemed "less equal" were treated and it didn't just pertain to color.  It's not a pretty portrait to view.  I simply do not SEE COLOR, I SEE PEOPLE.............why WE (as a society) cannot get past this is beyond me and something that is difficult to fathom.  

[Piddy]

17 hours ago, pepperbird said:

try being a woman of any colour for a while.
 

I'm very empathetic to what women face.  I'm married.  🙂  

[Gr8fuln2020]

5 hours ago, schlumpy said:

There is no news source that does not contain a bias. You just have to accept that. Your own political preferences are going to change your perception of the news source and push it to one side the political spectrum or the other.

If a political leader in office that you dislike is receiving favorable treatment out of a news source that you previously thought was fair, you may change your opinion about them wondering why you didn't notice how extreme there were before. They haven't changed - you have. Your dislike of the political leader is filtering your perception.

I hope you are not referring to the likes of FOXNEWS. Most people will objectively, most fast-checking sources will objectively, most people who watch FOXNEWS will have convinced themselves that that that agency is a tool of the right-wing. Thank goodness there are some who are not going to be subservient to the bullying and child-like tactics of this president. FOXNEWS, has definitely changed. It peddles conspiracies, lies, and is a parrot for the this current administration to the level and frequency that is unprecedented. To think that my objection to FOXNEWS is because I think Trump is a godless, un-informed, immoral human being is not how I came to the conclusion that FOXNEWS, in its current state, is an instrument of the POTUS. 

 No way!

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, Piddy said:

I'm very empathetic to what women face.  I'm married.  🙂  

I appreciate that. I really do, and I'm  not trying to be snide when I say than men can empathize, but not really know what it's like.
It's just like I'm not a man, so while I can empathize with what men go through, I can't say I really know what it's like to face the challenges they do.

Everyone seems so caught up in what "they" are going through that it can be easy to lose sight that pretty near everyone is walking their own road, and it's not always an easy one.

[Gr8fuln2020]

14 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

Nice try. The same reasoning is applied to both sets of disparate outcomes, but in one case you dismiss it as a difference in behavior that's attributable to the individuals, and in the other you choose to attribute the outcome to external pressures applied to the collective group. Physician, heal thyself. You're saying more men are in prison because they commit more crime, but more black men are in prison per capita because racism. 

You asked two questions. Why are there more black people in jail, per capita and why men. Two separate questions with two different answers. Why more men? Men tend to be more aggressive, impulsive, more violent. Simple. Cultural as well. American culture places a premium on 'macho' men in this country. Showing strength, keeping in emotions, pretending to always be in control, taking control....does a number on the male psyche. Some men break. 

Why more black people per capita. Phew. Complicated answer and not simplistic as some people like to make it. Mostly because people who come up with flippant answers have made almost zero to no effort researching the socio-economic and legal obstacles that exist the justice system in this country. Again, if you really care, you should do some research. 

The tilted legal system against people of colour, poor is well known and documented.

1. Incarceration rates are much higher for people of colour than other populations for same of similar crimes

2. Sentencings are harsher for people of colour than others. The sh$t legislation that were passed, criminal codes that were modified over the periods when cocaine was a huge problem will get you thinking. As inconsistent as laws are from state to state, one thing that was consistent, people of colour were MORE likely to have longer sentences and less likely to be given plea bargains or parole than whites. No accident. 

3. Poverty (a whole different discussion) predominantly places a very high disadvantage regardless of race. Poverty stricken areas tend to breed more despair, crime, less opportunity for education (quality), fewer resources for rehab, healthcare, etc. 

So many things. When I came to the states and started to pay attention to the news, politics, I was puzzled by the discrepancies. Why there was this clear divide in existence between people of colour and white people. Why my historic perspective of the country differed so much from those of the kids who were taught here....I needed to find out. It certainly wasn't a natural phenomenon. 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020

[Gr8fuln2020]

19 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

You asked two questions. Why are there more black people in jail, per capita and why men. Two separate questions with two different answers. Why more men? Men tend to be more aggressive, impulsive, more violent. Simple. Cultural as well. American culture places a premium on 'macho' men in this country. Showing strength, keeping in emotions, pretending to always be in control, taking control....does a number on the male psyche. Some men break. 

Why more black people per capita. Phew. Complicated answer and not simplistic as some people like to make it. Mostly because people who come up with flippant answers have made almost zero to no effort researching the socio-economic and legal obstacles that exist the justice system in this country. Again, if you really care, you should do some research. 

The tilted legal system against people of colour, poor is well known and documented.

1. Incarceration rates are much higher for people of colour than other populations for same of similar crimes

2. Sentencings are harsher for people of colour than others. The sh$t legislation that were passed, criminal codes that were modified over the periods when cocaine was a huge problem will get you thinking. As inconsistent as laws are from state to state, one thing that was consistent, people of colour were MORE likely to have longer sentences and less likely to be given plea bargains or parole than whites. No accident. 

3. Poverty (a whole different discussion) predominantly places a very high disadvantage regardless of race. Poverty stricken areas tend to breed more despair, crime, less opportunity for education (quality), fewer resources for rehab, healthcare, etc. 

So many things. When I came to the states and started to pay attention to the news, politics, I was puzzled by the discrepancies. Why there was this clear divide in existence between people of colour and white people. Why my historic perspective of the country differed so much from those of the kids who were taught here....I needed to find out. It certainly wasn't a natural phenomenon. 

EDIT: Had to quickly come back and add something before heading to work:

If you are really concerned about the fragility and arbitrary nature of our legal system is, just think about this:

1. States are primarily responsible for most criminal codes. What kind of codes do you think occur regionally, depending upon demographics, etc. It's each state determining it's own micro-system of justice. Death penalty or no. Abortion rights or less. No cohesive, consistent legal system results in abuse, confusion, ambiguity.

2. Sentencing guidelines are just guidelines. Who do you think are given longer or more severe sentences?

3. Related to #2, think about how those guidelines are determined. Depends on the judge. Get the right judge, and it will be more or less severe.

4. Look up voir dire. Think about that process. Think what kind of abuse that has and does occur with it.

5. Oh, and couple that with a country that has always had an us vs. 'them' mentality, yep, American history is fascinating, indeed. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Gr8fuln2020

[schlumpy]

6 minutes ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

 1. Incarceration rates are much higher for people of colour than other populations for same of similar crimes

2. Sentencing are harsher for people of colour than others

3. Poverty (a whole different discussion) predominantly places a very high disadvantage regardless of race. Poverty stricken areas tend to breed more despair, crime, less opportunity for education (quality), fewer resources for rehab, healthcare, etc. 

So many things. When I came to the states and started to pay attention to the news, politics, I was puzzled by the discrepancies. Why there was this clear divide in existence between people of colour and white people. Why my historic perspective of the country differed so much from those of the kids who were taught here....I needed to find out. It certainly wasn't a natural phenomenon. 

 

 

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21

The incarceration rate is higher because African American criminals are committing more crimes then their numbers would suggest. So, more end up going to jail.

The sentencing is harsher because many African American criminals have extensive rap sheets that the judge takes into consideration when sentencing. They add more time when you have been a bad boy or girl more then once.

I think we already agreed that poverty does not force anyone to become a criminal. The admirable strength of the black church will attest to that.

You forgot to ask why there are not more African Amercian CEOs or African Americans in college? That is easily explained by the low graduation rate of African Americans from High School as compared to others.

These are all problems that can be solved if they are recognized instead hidden under the blanket of historic, systemic or individual racism.

[Piddy]

39 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

I appreciate that. I really do, and I'm  not trying to be snide when I say than men can empathize, but not really know what it's like.
It's just like I'm not a man, so while I can empathize with what men go through, I can't say I really know what it's like to face the challenges they do.

Everyone seems so caught up in what "they" are going through that it can be easy to lose sight that pretty near everyone is walking their own road, and it's not always an easy one.

I'll just add that in the hierarchy of challenging roads, white men have the easiest road to walk.  

[gaius]

It's not the 1800's anymore. Some white men have an easier time, others don't. Some black men grow up in great families and have an better time of things than many whites. According to some sources light skinned blacks have an advantage over their darker skinned neighbors.

You can't draw lines based solely on skin color and give a very accurate picture of what's going on. But that's what we're doing and that thinking is being elevated to the level of a new religion. You can't even speak simple truths publicly without being persecuted on some level anymore. We're worse off than when the church made Gallelio stop talking about how the earth revolved around the sun.

 

[sothereiwas]

8 minutes ago, gaius said:

It's not the 1800's anymore. Some white men have an easier time, others don't. Some black men grow up in great families and have an better time of things than many whites. According to some sources light skinned blacks have an advantage over their darker skinned neighbors.

On top of all that, the next question, if we decide to agree racism is huge thing for the purpose of further discussion, is what should be done about it. The most commonly given answer basically boils down to "apply more racism". That's just incredibly stupid. But it's been done a lot. 

[sothereiwas]

  from here: https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/595356-george-floyd-protests/?do=findComment&comment=7824193

 

Just now, Piddy said:

It's a point to show how embedded our racism actually is.  That prejudice can be inferred by a name.  

If you can show it, report it. I've been on the hiring side of more interviews than on the trying to be hired side, and I can tell you for a fact, if we had a choice between a minority or a woman and some white dudes, we were pressured to go with the minority or woman if they might work out, even if they were not the most qualified. That's just a fact. If there were multiple appropriately skilled candidates I've even preferred the non-white male hire, I'm a bit ashamed to say.

The optics are better, as they say, the more minorities or women we could hire. That's not right but it's real. 

Is that racism in America? I guess so, technically. 

[Piddy]

35 minutes ago, gaius said:

It's not the 1800's anymore. Some white men have an easier time, others don't. Some black men grow up in great families and have an better time of things than many whites. According to some sources light skinned blacks have an advantage over their darker skinned neighbors.

You can't draw lines based solely on skin color and give a very accurate picture of what's going on. But that's what we're doing and that thinking is being elevated to the level of a new religion. You can't even speak simple truths publicly without being persecuted on some level anymore. We're worse off than when the church made Gallelio stop talking about how the earth revolved around the sun.

 

Not speaking in absolutes, but in general white men are discriminated less than any other person.  I don't think this is in dispute.  

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, Piddy said:

Not speaking in absolutes, but in general white men are discriminated less than any other person.

That might be technically right, after all, when Harvard made the requirements for admission higher for whites, they also made the requirements for asians even higher at the same time. Probably not what you were thinking of though. 

[Piddy]

21 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

  from here: https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/595356-george-floyd-protests/?do=findComment&comment=7824193

 

If you can show it, report it.

Again, it's just a point to show preconceived notions are there even in a name.  Now I suppose  in my example Jamal could be considered white and James could be black. 🙄

21 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

I've been on the hiring side of more interviews than on the trying to be hired side, and I can tell you for a fact, if we had a choice between a minority or a woman and some white dudes, we were pressured to go with the minority or woman if they might work out, even if they were not the most qualified. That's just a fact. If there were multiple appropriately skilled candidates I've even preferred the non-white male hire, I'm a bit ashamed to say.

The optics are better, as they say, the more minorities or women we could hire. That's not right but it's real. 

Sure it's right.  Sometimes the pendulum has to swing back further the other way to make up for years of injustice.  

21 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Is that racism in America? I guess so, technically. 

Technically?  Maybe.  But claiming racism by the majority race is a little weak IMO.

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, Piddy said:

Sure it's right.

Personally, I'm never going to condone racism but you do you. 

  

1 minute ago, Piddy said:

Technically?  Maybe.  But claiming racism by the majority race is a little weak IMO.

This is, by the way, actual institutional racism. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by sothereiwas

[Piddy]

8 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Personally, I'm never going to condone racism but you do you. 

  

Affirmative Action I don't consider racism.  (in the context of the allocation of resources or employment) the practice or policy of favoring individuals belonging to groups known to have been discriminated against previously.

Quote

This is, by the way, actual institutional racism. 

No, just the opposite actually.   It's trying to remedy systemic / institutional racism.  

Edited June 5, 2020 by Piddy

[sothereiwas]

Just now, Piddy said:

No, just the opposite actually.

It's actual institutional racism, literally. An institution has put in place a policy which treats people differently depending on what race they are identified as. No amount of fancy tap-dancing makes that not racist. This is precisely the sort of evidence I asked for when people asserted that institutional racism exists. So I guess I was wrong, it does exist. Just not the way the belief system espoused by these folks requires it. I get it, and I don't mean to tread on anyone's belief system, but to convert me to your religion will take actual evidence.

[Emilie Jolie]

So is the only racism some of you are actually seeing anti-white racism? 🤔 

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, Emilie Jolie said:

So is the only racism some of you are actually seeing anti-white racism? 🤔 

The only institutional racism I know of, but as noted evidence is welcome. Casual individual racism spans the gamut, as always. 

[Emilie Jolie]

You think your country is institutionally racist against 78% of its own population, because of the introduction of the quota system and 'optics'? Is that correct?